Regional Boards > Canada
OTM Book 12 "Standard/Highway" Signals
MisterSG1:
--- Quote from: 7/8 on July 20, 2016, 08:54:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 08:45:09 PM ---I was reading through this document and I recall 7/8 asking if the Green Arrow that disappears during an advanced green is legal, they say it is only recommended that the yellow arrow be used, this is seen on Page 35 of the document (not the PDF file).
Interesting to me, what the FHWA would call a "leading-left", the MTO calls an "advanced green".
In my opinion, the flashing green balls of yesteryear aren't exactly the same as the green ball/green left arrow, in fact, a flashing green ball to me symbolizes a green ball/green left arrow/green right arrow on simultaneously. As all the flashing green ball situations that I've found that still run do indeed restrict pedestrians from crossing on both sides during a flashing green ball phase. The Ontario Driver's Handbook seems to conform with my belief:
"When you face a flashing green light or a left-pointing green arrow and a green light, you may turn left, go straight ahead or turn right from the proper lane. This is called an advanced green light because oncoming traffic still faces a red light."
In practicality though, you can only turn right if you yield to pedestrians, the old flashing green balls to my knowledge always had a hand signal showing for pedestrians on both sides, while the green ball/green left arrow shows a walk signal on the side that wishes to make a right turn.
--- End quote ---
Interesting, TBH I've never thought about right movements with respect to the flashing green ball (the only one I regularly encountered shown below, was before I had my licence). I took this picture from GSV of the flashing green ball in Thornbury (Hwy 26 and Bruce St) and it actually shows the walking symbol on the right while the green ball is flashing. Maybe this is an exception, but it's still kind of scary that this seems to go against the Driver's Handbook :wow:
[img width=800 height=386]http://i.imgur.com/14GkoLd.png[/img
--- End quote ---
Interesting indeed, there goes my theory that the flashing green ball protected the right turn movement as well. But I've always been curious on the history of the flashing green ball signal, I've heard before that the reason they didn't use the "doghouse" signals here (or equivalent like the 4 headed signal we currently use), was because an arrow meant a move the driver must make.
Indeed, older handbooks show situations involving simultaneous left turns (when you face a red ball + green arrow) but none showing by the current definition of the advanced green (when you face a green ball + green arrow).
Another interesting tidbit I found regards what Ontario officially calls "split phasing", they call it "separate phasing". But the manual shows that during the yellow phase, the yellow ball and yellow arrow must be displayed together, in fact I can only think of 2 intersections that currently do this, and it's a rather recent installation too. Consider this document is from 2001. This is on Page 41
Lagging left turns in a permissive-protected situation are known as "extended greens", it makes sense as this is an opposite of the advanced green, indeed I always the "advanced" in advanced green referred to it being a super duper green light (if you get what I mean) but it refers to it being advanced, as before the through traffic signal.
Extended Greens can ONLY be used in situations in which opposing traffic CAN'T TURN LEFT. Of course this eliminates the yellow trap, which is illegal to run in Ontario. All this shown on Page 40.
Incidentally, they refer to a lagging left in a fully protected situation as "lagging" and not extended....meh, no need to complicate matters do we.
7/8:
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 09:11:39 PM ---Interesting indeed, there goes my theory that the flashing green ball protected the right turn movement as well. But I've always been curious on the history of the flashing green ball signal, I've heard before that the reason they didn't use the "doghouse" signals here (or equivalent like the 4 headed signal we currently use), was because an arrow meant a move the driver must make.
Indeed, older handbooks show situations involving simultaneous left turns (when you face a red ball + green arrow) but none showing by the current definition of the advanced green (when you face a green ball + green arrow).
--- End quote ---
Interesting, it's hard to imagine with how common it is now.
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 09:11:39 PM ---Another interesting tidbit I found regards what Ontario officially calls "split phasing", they call it "separate phasing". But the manual shows that during the yellow phase, the yellow ball and yellow arrow must be displayed together, in fact I can only think of 2 intersections that currently do this, and it's a rather recent installation too. Consider this document is from 2001. This is on Page 41
--- End quote ---
I'm confused here. I thought split phasing would always require the yellow ball and arrow to be displayed together. Would you mind explaining how this wouldn't be the case? For example, you mentioned the Bovaird Dr/Mountainash Rd intersection in a different thread, which is split phasing. Does this have the yellow ball and arrow together?
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 09:11:39 PM ---Lagging left turns in a permissive-protected situation are known as "extended greens", it makes sense as this is an opposite of the advanced green, indeed I always the "advanced" in advanced green referred to it being a super duper green light (if you get what I mean) but it refers to it being advanced, as before the through traffic signal.
Extended Greens can ONLY be used in situations in which opposing traffic CAN'T TURN LEFT. Of course this eliminates the yellow trap, which is illegal to run in Ontario. All this shown on Page 40.
Incidentally, they refer to a lagging left in a fully protected situation as "lagging" and not extended....meh, no need to complicate matters do we.
--- End quote ---
I don't think I've ever seen an extended green in Ontario. It would have to be used from a two-way street to a one-way street. I personally think the Regina St/Bridgeport Rd and Regina St/Erb St intersections could use these at peak times. Currently, there is an advanced green, but I think both an advanced green and an extended green could be useful at rush hour, since a single vehicle trying to turn left is enough to block everyone behind them.
I still can't believe the yellow trap exists; thank God it's not found in Ontario :-D
---
I may need to read through the Book 12 more tomorrow. It definitely looks interesting, and it'd be good to know more of the terminology!
cl94:
30-20-20 was definitely the most common install in Southern Ontario until relatively recently and still by far the most common in many areas, including the Niagara Peninsula. The flashing green ball was basically the Ontario version of a 4-section with a green left arrow.
Of course, the "standard" in Europe is 20-20-20, with some jurisdictions explicitly stating not to use 30-30-30.
7/8:
--- Quote from: cl94 on July 20, 2016, 09:41:32 PM ---30-20-20 was definitely the most common install in Southern Ontario until relatively recently and still by far the most common in many areas, including the Niagara Peninsula. The flashing green ball was basically the Ontario version of a 4-section with a green left arrow.
Of course, the "standard" in Europe is 20-20-20, with some jurisdictions explicitly stating not to use 30-30-30.
--- End quote ---
Hmm, I didn't know that. I guess it's a trade-off; the 30-30-30 lights are very bright, but they have more visibility than the 20-20-20.
MisterSG1:
--- Quote from: 7/8 on July 20, 2016, 09:37:33 PM ---
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 09:11:39 PM ---Another interesting tidbit I found regards what Ontario officially calls "split phasing", they call it "separate phasing". But the manual shows that during the yellow phase, the yellow ball and yellow arrow must be displayed together, in fact I can only think of 2 intersections that currently do this, and it's a rather recent installation too. Consider this document is from 2001. This is on Page 41
--- End quote ---
I'm confused here. I thought split phasing would always require the yellow ball and arrow to be displayed together. Would you mind explaining how this wouldn't be the case? For example, you mentioned the Bovaird Dr/Mountainash Rd intersection in a different thread, which is split phasing. Does this have the yellow ball and arrow together?
--- End quote ---
In most places that use split phasing or separate phasing....since most posters here are familiar with the FHWA jargon, I suggest that we use that terminology preferably.
http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop08024/chapter4.htm
Incidentally, they use an example FROM Toronto here in Section 4.3.5.
As for the split phasing, I got off on a bit of tangent to start off here, in nearly ALL cases in the GTA in which I have seen split phasing used. Like at Mountainash/Bovaird/Sunnyvale. The green phase shows a green ball + green arrow, but when the light turns yellow, the green arrow disappears and just a yellow ball appears. Although at Airport/Intermodal/Woodslea, the yellow arrow has been showing recently with the yellow ball on ONLY the Intermodal split phase (The Woodslea split phase does not display the yellow arrow). So most split phases in Ontario follow this sequence in reality:
Red Ball
Green Ball + Green Arrow
Yellow Ball
Red Ball
--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 09:11:39 PM ---Lagging left turns in a permissive-protected situation are known as "extended greens", it makes sense as this is an opposite of the advanced green, indeed I always the "advanced" in advanced green referred to it being a super duper green light (if you get what I mean) but it refers to it being advanced, as before the through traffic signal.
Extended Greens can ONLY be used in situations in which opposing traffic CAN'T TURN LEFT. Of course this eliminates the yellow trap, which is illegal to run in Ontario. All this shown on Page 40.
Incidentally, they refer to a lagging left in a fully protected situation as "lagging" and not extended....meh, no need to complicate matters do we.
--- End quote ---
I don't think I've ever seen an extended green in Ontario. It would have to be used from a two-way street to a one-way street. I personally think the Regina St/Bridgeport Rd and Regina St/Erb St intersections could use these at peak times. Currently, there is an advanced green, but I think both an advanced green and an extended green could be useful at rush hour, since a single vehicle trying to turn left is enough to block everyone behind them.
I still can't believe the yellow trap exists; thank God it's not found in Ontario :-D
--- End quote ---
An extended green or lagging left probably does exist somewhere in Ontario, but it would most likely be found at a T intersection.
It could in theory be used at a regular intersection where 2 two way streets intersect, the yellow trap is prevented when the side opposing the direction that gets the lagging left has a left turn restriction. Take for example Dundas St and Bay St, NB Bay has no restriction at all on left turns while SB Bay has a time restriction, I believe 7AM-7PM on weekdays (You learn the time restrictions fairly quickly when you Uber downtown for a few weeks)
Since SB Bay can't make a left turn (at least during this time restriction), then there is no issue with running a lagging left (or extended green) on NB Bay as there can't possibly be a yellow trap situation.
At the intersection of Yonge and Harbour, if you are turning left onto Yonge, the green arrow signal appears later on in the phase, but this lagging arrow appears moreso as a protection against pedestrians than oncoming traffic. This intersection is strange and I have not observed the phasing here like I have at many other intersections, so I am not 100% sure of what goes on here. But I know as a fact that the green arrow appears long after the green ball has been on.
As for a lead and lag for the same left movement, it sounds like an interesting proposition, I wonder if that is done anywhere currently. Understand that if you have both a lead and lag movement for the same left turn movement, that the opposing direction will face more red time, as will the cross traffic on the one way street. It appears that there is not enough space for two actual lanes in this situation. So just looking at this situation, how about redesigning the intersection, I'm not sure how active this intersection is with pedestrians, but what if we have an actual left turn lane and a through lane on one side, and an option lane on the other side (straight or right), if pedestrian activity is high at this intersection, the option lane would not be feasible. (If pedestrian traffic is low enough, the pedestrian crossing that can create the conflict could be removed, I know this is not ideal, but it can be done)
As for a FULLY PROTECTED lagging left, I know they exist at Lake Shore/Windermere, and Lake Shore/Colborne Lodge. What happens here, Lake Shore Blvd gets a green ball for EB and WB, the light for WB Lake Shore changes back to red, and then the EB Lake Shore Blvd LEFT TURN signal displays the green arrow. This is an intersection that clearly shows the positives of the FYA, as this is a single left turning lane, if traffic is clear on opposing Lake Shore, one could make the turn during a flashing yellow arrow, as in the current setup would be a solid red throughout the whole phase until their green arrow appears for the left turn.
--- Quote from: cl94 on July 20, 2016, 09:41:32 PM ---30-20-20 was definitely the most common install in Southern Ontario until relatively recently and still by far the most common in many areas, including the Niagara Peninsula. The flashing green ball was basically the Ontario version of a 4-section with a green left arrow.
--- End quote ---
All new signals to my knowledge are still the 30-20-20 variety normally.
The flashing green ball may have been our version of the doghouse but not exactly. The flashing green ball only allows for one type of phase unlike the many others the 4-section does, the flashing green ball can't mimic the "red ball + green left arrow" movement, it's impossible.
Of course, with the flashing green ball, you have absolutely NO IDEA when the phase will end, generally as I recall seeing these more common in my real younger days, like early to mid 90s, when the flashing green ball became solid, opposing traffic instantly got a green, there was no clearance phase involved.
Sometime in the late 80s, the advanced green defined by the green ball + green arrow appeared in the manual, and seeing as there are some kicking around today, that means it has taken nearly 30 years to make the flashing green ball extinct. I know the FYA is supposed to do the same thing across every state, we might still be seeing doghouses 30 years from now.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version