Old Keyboards

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

Anyone else prefer the mechanical-switch keyboards of old to today's cheap, mushy, flimsy rubber dome junk keyboards?

I currently own these:

'93 Acer 6311-K.  More solid than your average best buy cheapie, but not the best out there.  Weird mechanical actuation over a membrane switch sheet:


'95-ish Dell AT101W.  Built like a tank, it's seriously HEAVY and there is no reverberation in the chassis when typing on it.  Real black ALPS switches, not copies:


Looking to get some others, namely a Model M, I'd also like to try some modern mechanical 'boards, such as the Filco cherry-switch 'boards sold by elitekeyboards.com and the Unicomp Customizer series keyboards, basically a brand-new new Model M.

[agentsteel53]

I've got a Model M of 1989 vintage.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

Model Ms are pretty much the holy grail, so naturally I hate you.

The AT101W is really nice, though.  I'll hold me over.

[national highway 1]

I have a Windows 98 keyboard combined with a 2008 Asus Monitor. (I used to have a bulky Windows 98 monitor, it now lies in my garage)

[agentsteel53]

Model Ms are pretty much the holy grail, so naturally I hate you.

they can be had for about 25 bucks on eBay.  Not exactly the Hope Diamond!

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

The more common variants, anyway.  The Space Saving Minis, when they do come up, tend to go for $100+.  Black label 1391401s also tend to go for a bit more, though not outrageously more.

I have a Windows 98 keyboard combined with a 2008 Asus Monitor. (I used to have a bulky Windows 98 monitor, it now lies in my garage)

Do what now?

[bugo]

I have a Windows 98 keyboard combined with a 2008 Asus Monitor. (I used to have a bulky Windows 98 monitor, it now lies in my garage)

There's no such thing as a "Windows 98 keyboard" or a "Windows 98 monitor."

[corco]

I have a 1993 NEC RT101- it's not quite as good as a Model M, but it's been in continuous use for 17 years now and still works perfectly

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

That's a rubber dome 'board, but it's a GOOD rubber dome 'board.  The likes of which you just don't see anymore.

[bugo]

I have a Model M in storage.  The cord is shot, so I need to buy another one.  Do they make a cable for the Model M that has a USB at one end or do you have to use an adapter?

[agentsteel53]

I have a Model M in storage.  The cord is shot, so I need to buy another one.  Do they make a cable for the Model M that has a USB at one end or do you have to use an adapter?

I've always used an adapter.  I have an extra cord for a Model M.  In fact, I have an extra Model M - just doesn't work because I spilled an entire 20 oz glass of water into it! 

indestructible?  almost!

if you want me to mail you a cord (Model M to PS/2, not USB) message me with your mailing address.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

I have a Model M in storage.  The cord is shot, so I need to buy another one.  Do they make a cable for the Model M that has a USB at one end or do you have to use an adapter?

I use this with my 'boards.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3932760

It's an active adapter, so it's capable of translating the singal.  Only kind that will work with the Model M and most other old PS/2 'boards. Works like a charm.

[Scott5114]

I have a Model M with a manufacture date of May 88. There was this unused classroom attached to the old gym when I was in high school, and the comp sci teacher granted me access to it to see about experimenting with an obsolete computer and Linux. I selected a random healthy-looking box and monitor, but made pains to dig around to find a decent keyboard (the new keyboards the school had purchased in bulk had the "|" key located right of right shift. Totally awkward positioning, since I use the "|" key a lot more than most people). Finally found a Model M that was missing only one keycap–right ALT–and took it out there. When the year was ending, I made a deal with the teacher to do some kind of extra credit work (she was also the yearbook teacher and had tons of things to do) to allow me to keep the keyboard outside of school.

[Mr_Northside]

I've never paid much attention to any keyboard "names", but I got one from my friends old IBM 286 machine.  Still use it upstairs (the keyboard, NOT the computer), built like a tank.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

I've never paid much attention to any keyboard "names", but I got one from my friends old IBM 286 machine.  Still use it upstairs (the keyboard, NOT the computer), built like a tank.

Does it look like this?

[TheStranger]

US-43|72 - ah, so many childhood memories!  Those things were especially springy (and noisy!) but nearly all-metal construction if I'm not mistaken.

I think there are versions out there with the same mechanics but updated for modern Windows PCs (and obviously not manufactured by IBM anymore), it's been a year or two since I checked that though.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

US-43|72 - ah, so many childhood memories!  Those things were especially springy (and noisy!) but nearly all-metal construction if I'm not mistaken.

I think there are versions out there with the same mechanics but updated for modern Windows PCs (and obviously not manufactured by IBM anymore), it's been a year or two since I checked that though.

Yeah, the unicomps.

[NJRoadfan]

Model Ms were a dime a dozen at thrift stores around here. I used to find the trackpoint ones from time to time at computer shows. Usually in the $5 junk bins..... I miss those days.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

Everything goes through that phase...then suddenly everyone realizes just how nice that old stuff was and everybody's gotta have it again.

The cars of the 50s-60s...they were being thrown away in the 70s and 80s like it was nothing.  Now look.

That said, like AgentSteel53 said, they do regularly go on ebay for $20-30, so it's not like it's a terribly huge deal.

[J N Winkler]

Despite my reference to "Model M" in another thread, I am not really a keyboard connoisseur--I just want a keyboard which has good key feel, a good depth of key travel (since I tend to press keys heavily, to the extent that I am not welcome in libraries, records offices, and other places where silence is valued), no sticky keys, no difficulties with the Shift key (a lot of cheaper keyboards seem to "ignore" Shift, so I have to adjust by holding down Shift longer than normal, which breaks my typing pace), and an extra-large Return key so I hit that instead of some other key when I want to make a carriage return.

The best keyboard I have had is the cordless Logitech I normally use with my laptop.  It is not a Model M, but I think it may be a close cousin since I suspect it has buckling-spring keys.  It certainly has nearly the same heft as a Model M.  Unfortunately, I am on the road right now, so I can't use it.  I miss it.  The laptop keyboard I am using right now isn't too bad, but has limited key travel.

I have bought a lot of $10 keyboards over the years and have become unsentimental about them.  My ballistic typing usually wears them out within two years.  The cordless Logitech was more expensive (about $40, I think), but has lasted almost four years.  The key labels are worn out but key feel is still very good, so I think I got good value for money.

[Scott5114]

When making a link to another article on Wikipedia, the code is this: [[Some other article|Display text]].

As a result, the location of the pipe key, which also carries backslash, is vital to me. I much prefer being between Backspace and Enter–that is the "proper" place for it! It was only fairly recently, in computer terms, that the L-shaped Enter key was developed and the pipe key was moved to somewhere else, like left of backspace. I question the need for this L-shaped Enter key (does anyone seriously hit the top leg of that to do Enter? It's so much easier to hit it with your right pinky which is normally hanging out around semicolon or so), especially since putting it elsewhere reduces the size of some other key, usually Backspace. Or, in the case of the terrible school keyboards mentioned above, right of right shift.

Linux gives you the option of setting a key as a "Compose" key. This is a neat key which allows you the ability to compose complex characters by typing the letters and diacritics separately, so you will not have to hunt for most characters in a Character Map nor memorize Alt+ codes. For example, for ñ, I just hit [Compose] + ~ + n, and there it is. This also allows me to use proper dashes at all times instead of relying on a succession of hyphens.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

It was only fairly recently, in computer terms, that the L-shaped Enter key was developed and the pipe key was moved to somewhere else, like left of backspace.

Actually, no, it wasn't recently.

Here's where the L-enters came from:


Why they're still used today on any keyboard is far beyond me... actually, why the diagonally-staggered QWERTY layout, which dates to 1874, is still in use today kinda boggles my mind.  Even stranger still is how many so-called 'ergonomic' split-keyboards still retain the diagonal staggering.  Ideally, the keys would be all in a straight line with each other in both directions - both up and across -  diagonal staggering was necessary back when each key was connected to a lever that went into a typewriter.  That's been 35+ years ago.

[agentsteel53]

and wasn't the QWERTY layout chosen to maximize the number of times you alternated hands between successive keystrokes, to minimize jams of the typewriter?

[J N Winkler]

When making a link to another article on Wikipedia, the code is this: [[Some other article|Display text]].

As a result, the location of the pipe key, which also carries backslash, is vital to me. I much prefer being between Backspace and Enter–that is the "proper" place for it! It was only fairly recently, in computer terms, that the L-shaped Enter key was developed and the pipe key was moved to somewhere else, like left of backspace. I question the need for this L-shaped Enter key (does anyone seriously hit the top leg of that to do Enter? It's so much easier to hit it with your right pinky which is normally hanging out around semicolon or so), especially since putting it elsewhere reduces the size of some other key, usually Backspace. Or, in the case of the terrible school keyboards mentioned above, right of right shift.

The trouble with single-row Return keys is that many people, myself included, do not type Return with their pinky fingers.  It requires a lot of stretching with the little finger to reach the Return key and, personally, I can't do that and still keep the other three typing fingers on the "home key" positions.  Normally I type Return by taking my right hand briefly off the home keys, hitting Return with the top of the side of my hand, and then dropping my right hand back onto the home keys.  In order to do this reliably I need a Return key which straddles multiple rows.  In contradistinction, little is lost by moving the pipe/backslash key next to Z in the QWERTY layout--instead of hitting pipe with your right pinky, you hit it with your left pinky, and the finger travel required is actually shorter.

Linux gives you the option of setting a key as a "Compose" key. This is a neat key which allows you the ability to compose complex characters by typing the letters and diacritics separately, so you will not have to hunt for most characters in a Character Map nor memorize Alt+ codes. For example, for ñ, I just hit [Compose] + ~ + n, and there it is. This also allows me to use proper dashes at all times instead of relying on a succession of hyphens.

Compose in this situation functions as a dead key.  AltGr (the right-hand Alt key) is also a dead key, provided the appropriate keyboard layout is enabled.  ("AltGr" generally won't appear on the keycap on keyboards manufactured for the American market, but it will for keyboards marketed in Europe, as also will the € symbol on the 4 keycap--€ requires AltGr on my Windows XP laptop with the UK International keyboard layout.)  The functionality is similar.  But are you able to do cedillas properly, even with letters which do not appear in standard Western Latin alphabets?  (S with cedilla, for example, is used to represent the hard s sound in Turkish.)

and wasn't the QWERTY layout chosen to maximize the number of times you alternated hands between successive keystrokes, to minimize jams of the typewriter?

That was part of the original motivation.  There is currently a debate among economic historians about whether the QWERTY layout is an example of path dependence, i.e. newer and better technologies not being adopted because society is so committed to an earlier, and presumably inferior, standard that the costs of switching are considered too large to be amortized by efficiency savings from adopting a newer and better standard.  In the case of the QWERTY layout, the Dvorak keyboard has been suggested as the better standard, and Paul David wrote a famous and controversial paper in the 1980's centered on the continued use of QWERTY as an example of path dependence.  More recently, Liebowitz and Margolies have attacked the empirical basis for the Dvorak keyboard's greater efficiency, e.g. by showing that most of the efficiency claims derive from a study which Dvorak himself (the keyboard inventor) carried out during the war, when he was a lieutenant commander in the US Navy.

My personal view is that the QWERTY versus Dvorak debate has concentrated for too long on training costs.  This may be because it has been driven by a "typing pool" paradigm which no longer exists, now that middle managers are expected to do their own typing and people are routinely hired as secretaries without being able to do at least 50 WPM (in the UK, for example, people can now be hired as secretaries in the City of London with just 35 WPM).  While the original motivation for the Sholes (QWERTY) layout was to prevent key bars from jamming, similar low-level mechanical considerations are still relevant even in the computer world, since a fast typist on a slow computer (or just a moderately quick computer with a lagged CPU) can easily overrun a keystroke buffer.

[agentsteel53]

There is currently a debate among economic historians about whether the QWERTY layout is an example of path dependence, i.e. newer and better technologies not being adopted because society is so committed to an earlier, and presumably inferior, standard that the costs of switching are considered too large to be amortized by efficiency savings from adopting a newer and better standard.

I was not aware that there is a debate to be had here - I'd always assumed "lock-in" was the reason everyone uses QWERTY.  It's like attempting to make Esperanto an international language - it's a structurally sound language, with logical grammar and easy spelling... but too many people speak English already.

yes, English managed to supplant French, which managed to supplant Latin, as the official language of international business - but I don't see a non-QWERTY culture taking over the world through a sequence of military victories.

regarding the carriage return - I type with four fingers - six at most... I always slam the ENTER key with my index finger, because that means it's time to move on to the next field, paragraph, line of code, etc - which usually implies a moment to gather one's thoughts...

I can type at about 110wpm, but I sure as Hell can't think that fast.