Can I beat a ticket?

[cbalducc]

The Saturday after Thanksgiving, I got a ticket for going 41 mph in a 30 mph zone in a small Tennessee town.  I was passing through and didn't notice the speed limit sign.  After looking on Google maps, I found the sign in question:

http://tinyurl.com/279egup

It is located about a quarter mile north of the intersection with State Highway 57.  If you have a hard time seeing the sign in the link, it is under the electric utility pole.

I tend not to pay attention to trailblazers, the signs that tell you what highway you're on.  I don't know if other drivers have that habit.  In my opinion, placing a speed limit sign on the same pole as a trailblazer makes it less conspicuous than if it were on a pole by itself of even on one with a city limit sign.  The latter two options are common in my home state of Mississippi.  I do not live in the area where I received the ticket and consider myself an easy catch for that reason.  The police officer told me if I were to go to court next month, I would stand a good chance of beating the ticket.  Is he correct?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

God bless,

CKB

[agentsteel53]

In my opinion, placing a speed limit sign on the same pole as a trailblazer makes it less conspicuous than if it were on a pole by itself of even on one with a city limit sign.  

and that is exactly why they put it there, and combined it with the route shield which has the same color scheme, font and size, etc etc. 

41 in a 30 is not especially dangerous to the public health at the outskirts of town; the heavy enforcement of the very first speed limit sign coming into town is 100% purely for revenue purposes.

especially if you have out of state plates.  They know damn well you're not going to spend $419 on plane fare to come back to Padded Coffer County for a chance to beat a $226 ticket.

[cbalducc]

The sign was within city limits.  It would be at least a three-hour drive from where I live in Mississippi.  I could spend the night with a relative to make it more convenient, since the town court meets at 7:00 pm.  The fine is $150, which makes it worth while to contest it.

As soon as I saw that police car across the railroad crossing pointing my way, I just knew I would get a ticket, even if I didn't know how fast I was going or what the speed limit was!

[corco]

Was there any sort of reduced speed ahead sign before you entered town? If there wasn't, then you should be able to get out of the ticket. If there was, you should have been looking for the sign.

[FLRoads]

Well I received a ticket just east of Moscow along SR 57 back in August. Like you, I got a ticket for doing 53 in a 40 mph zone, so the police officer says. It was 8am on a Sunday morning and I was the only one on the road. As I approached the Dollar General located about a mile east of SR 76 I saw the police car on the south side of the road backed up to a building, and flashed is lights on before I even passed. He gave me the same choice of returning in a month at their town hall at 7pm to go before the judge. I figured I would just mail in the $163.75 ticket instead of going through that hassle of driving the 8 hours from Florida. I never looked in any GIS database to see if the city limits go out that far, but I assume that they do so that the Dollar General can be classified as being in town, as that is pretty much all there is there. Lesson learned though, never go through that town ever again

[wriddle082]

AFAIK, all Tennessee jurisdictions offer the traffic school option to mask your violation from your auto insurer.  It can sometimes cost more than just paying the ticket depending on the jurisdiction, but keeping it off your record is important if you don't want a steep jump in your insurance rate.  I recently did Metro Nashville/Davidson traffic school online, and I think between the court fees and school fees I spent over $200, just for rolling through a stop sign!

Kentucky has a standardized statewide traffic school program, and I believe that if you get a ticket in one jurisdiction and request traffic school either by mail or in person, you can attend any of the traffic schools across the state (as in a school just over the border if you got your ticket in the middle of the state).

My very first ticket way back in 1994, right after I graduated high school, was in the speed-trap satellite town of Metro Nashville/Davidson Co. known as Lakewood, which is a 2-mile stretch of SR 45 between Hermitage and Old Hickory.  It's a five-lane roadway with a speed limit is 45, which is average, and they allegedly caught me doing 56, but really they clocked the people passing me but pulled me over instead because 1) I had the radar detector, and 2) I was driving a Toyota (I swear, the cops around here hate foreign cars!).  Either way, I went to court, then went to traffic school, then it was all over with.

[jwolfer]

Well I received a ticket just east of Moscow along SR 57 back in August. Like you, I got a ticket for doing 53 in a 40 mph zone, so the police officer says. It was 8am on a Sunday morning and I was the only one on the road. As I approached the Dollar General located about a mile east of SR 76 I saw the police car on the south side of the road backed up to a building, and flashed is lights on before I even passed. He gave me the same choice of returning in a month at their town hall at 7pm to go before the judge. I figured I would just mail in the $163.75 ticket instead of going through that hassle of driving the 8 hours from Florida. I never looked in any GIS database to see if the city limits go out that far, but I assume that they do so that the Dollar General can be classified as being in town, as that is pretty much all there is there. Lesson learned though, never go through that town ever again

I am not sure about other states but here in FL there is an attorney firm with a website  ticketclinic.com .  Here in FL your attorney can go to court for you so no need to travel.  Look into an attorney

[Brian556]

It is a violation of the MUTCD to place unrelated signs on the same pole. Because route marker and speed limit signs are not related, the agency that installed these signs commited a MUTCD violation.
If you choose to fight the ticket, you should print off this page of the MUTCD and bring it with you to court.

Also, If it is below a route marker sign, It's probably not 7ft off the ground like it's supposed to be.

[FLRoads]

Well I received a ticket just east of Moscow along SR 57 back in August. Like you, I got a ticket for doing 53 in a 40 mph zone, so the police officer says. It was 8am on a Sunday morning and I was the only one on the road. As I approached the Dollar General located about a mile east of SR 76 I saw the police car on the south side of the road backed up to a building, and flashed is lights on before I even passed. He gave me the same choice of returning in a month at their town hall at 7pm to go before the judge. I figured I would just mail in the $163.75 ticket instead of going through that hassle of driving the 8 hours from Florida. I never looked in any GIS database to see if the city limits go out that far, but I assume that they do so that the Dollar General can be classified as being in town, as that is pretty much all there is there. Lesson learned though, never go through that town ever again

I am not sure about other states but here in FL there is an attorney firm with a website  ticketclinic.com .  Here in FL your attorney can go to court for you so no need to travel.  Look into an attorney

Well I ended up just paying the fine. I had too many other things going on at that time.

It's nice to know that it is a violation of MUTCD. I'd love for that town to get theirs for posting their speed limit signs as they do, but I imagine that they were erected by the county sign shop. Perhaps a letter to them (the county) stating that those signs are in violation will cause a stir in their pot...

[jwolfer]

Well I received a ticket just east of Moscow along SR 57 back in August. Like you, I got a ticket for doing 53 in a 40 mph zone, so the police officer says. It was 8am on a Sunday morning and I was the only one on the road. As I approached the Dollar General located about a mile east of SR 76 I saw the police car on the south side of the road backed up to a building, and flashed is lights on before I even passed. He gave me the same choice of returning in a month at their town hall at 7pm to go before the judge. I figured I would just mail in the $163.75 ticket instead of going through that hassle of driving the 8 hours from Florida. I never looked in any GIS database to see if the city limits go out that far, but I assume that they do so that the Dollar General can be classified as being in town, as that is pretty much all there is there. Lesson learned though, never go through that town ever again

I am not sure about other states but here in FL there is an attorney firm with a website  ticketclinic.com .  Here in FL your attorney can go to court for you so no need to travel.  Look into an attorney

Well I ended up just paying the fine. I had too many other things going on at that time.

It's nice to know that it is a violation of MUTCD. I'd love for that town to get theirs for posting their speed limit signs as they do, but I imagine that they were erected by the county sign shop. Perhaps a letter to them (the county) stating that those signs are in violation will cause a stir in their pot...

Dont forget getting an attorney.  sometimes its worth the money to avoid points.. especailly if you cant take the classes anymore

It also helps to have a good friend who is an attorney

[US71]

I'm trying to find an attorney myself. I got stopped Friday night for 63 in a 50 Zone near Central City, AR. I was MAYBE going 55 since it was dark and in a construction zone. The officer was waiting at the bridge, but put a street intersection as the place I was allegedly speeding.

To add insult to injury, I had 2 different officers accuse me of DWI, then force me to take the sobriety tests including the breathalyzer.  I was stone cold sober, but they kept trying to nail me for DWI, including accusing me of having something in my mouth to interfere with the test.

Of course, 5 minutes after they let me go, they stopped someone else. I guess they were trying to make their quotas

[FLRoads]

I'm trying to find an attorney myself. I got stopped Friday night for 63 in a 50 Zone near Central City, AR. I was MAYBE going 55 since it was dark and in a construction zone. The officer was waiting at the bridge, but put a street intersection as the place I was allegedly speeding.

To add insult to injury, I had 2 different officers accuse me of DWI, then force me to take the sobriety tests including the breathalyzer.  I was stone cold sober, but they kept trying to nail me for DWI, including accusing me of having something in my mouth to interfere with the test.

Of course, 5 minutes after they let me go, they stopped someone else. I guess they were trying to make their quotas

That's awful! Reminds me of being pulled over in fall 2009 along Interstate 65 north of Nashville just because I was taking a quick glimpse at a rock formation on a cut while climbing up a small mountain and I drifted slightly. We spent 20-25 minutes on the side of the road while the officer collaborated our story, performed a full body search, searched our car inside and out, etc. And our excuse for being pulled over: he was making sure that we weren't terrorists on a midnight run of some sort. Your story, though, takes the cake on being pulled over...

It sounds like more and more of these towns in the southeast are getting really desperate in this economy to keep afloat.

[corco]

In fairness, Friday night was New Years Eve. There were very likely more drunk people on the road than sober people, so I understand the extra scrutiny

[US71]

UPDATE:
When I got to traffic court, there was no one there except one person working in the office. I wasn't allowed to do anything except pay the ticket (no plea) because the date on my ticket was supposedly wrong (but she couldn't tell me what day it was supposed to be).

In the end, I paid $195.

[Dr Frankenstein]

Hmm... somehow I think that they shouldn't force you to pay because of a wrong date...

[US71]

Hmm... somehow I think that they shouldn't force you to pay because of a wrong date...

True. But I suspect it's a trick to get people to pay and avoid having to hold Traffic Court.

[rickmastfan67]

Hmm... somehow I think that they shouldn't force you to pay because of a wrong date...

True. But I suspect it's a trick to get people to pay and avoid having to hold Traffic Court.

Can somebody say lawsuit?

[ctsignguy]

It is a violation of the MUTCD to place unrelated signs on the same pole. Because route marker and speed limit signs are not related, the agency that installed these signs commited a MUTCD violation.
If you choose to fight the ticket, you should print off this page of the MUTCD and bring it with you to court.

Also, If it is below a route marker sign, It's probably not 7ft off the ground like it's supposed to be.

Back in the not-so-long ago days of the New Rome traffic ticket empire outside Columbus, they had Broad St (US 40) marked as 35 MPH....ODOT confirmed that the speed limit legally on that stretch of US 40 was 45, but every time they posted SL 45 signs, they would vanish in days and be replaced by SL 35 signs...and legally, they couldnt do much about it

Thankfully, the State of Ohio passed a law aimed at New Rome and similar traffic ticket emporiums where they had to provide certain services with their revenue...and if they failed to do so, their incorporations could be legally unincorporated by the Attorney General's office...(easy enough to prove or disprove when you looked at the streets and sidewalks of New Rome...they hadnt been repaired or redone since Truman was President, or so it appeared...)

So, even if the State DOT and MUTCD is on your side, it wont help you much if at all...

[jwolfer]

It is a violation of the MUTCD to place unrelated signs on the same pole. Because route marker and speed limit signs are not related, the agency that installed these signs commited a MUTCD violation.
If you choose to fight the ticket, you should print off this page of the MUTCD and bring it with you to court.

Also, If it is below a route marker sign, It's probably not 7ft off the ground like it's supposed to be.

Back in the not-so-long ago days of the New Rome traffic ticket empire outside Columbus, they had Broad St (US 40) marked as 35 MPH....ODOT confirmed that the speed limit legally on that stretch of US 40 was 45, but every time they posted SL 45 signs, they would vanish in days and be replaced by SL 35 signs...and legally, they couldnt do much about it

Thankfully, the State of Ohio passed a law aimed at New Rome and similar traffic ticket emporiums where they had to provide certain services with their revenue...and if they failed to do so, their incorporations could be legally unincorporated by the Attorney General's office...(easy enough to prove or disprove when you looked at the streets and sidewalks of New Rome...they hadnt been repaired or redone since Truman was President, or so it appeared...)

So, even if the State DOT and MUTCD is on your side, it wont help you much if at all...

The city of Boulogne(sp?) FL  which is on US1/23/301 just after coming into Florida from Georgia was disincorporated by the state in the 1960s I think for over using traffic tickets as revenue. ( i am sure there was more to it) It was well known as a speed-trap in the pre-Interstate days

[J N Winkler]

Has anyone tried using the vehicle black box for exoneration?

[Scott5114]

Has anyone tried using the vehicle black box for exoneration?

Would that work? I'm sure if there was a discrepancy between the policeman's radar gun and the black box, the policeman's gun would take precedence, same as if you claim your speedometer said X when the policeman says you were going Y.

[J N Winkler]

In principle it could work if evidence were introduced which addressed the accuracy of the respective measurements.  A vehicle black box can be highly reliable, especially if it relies on GPS speed measurement.  On the other hand, police radar guns and other speed-measuring equipment generally require certification as to accuracy, and (depending on the state) there may also be a requirement for police officers to have training before they can use a particular gun or other device to generate legally reliable speed measurements.

I don't follow the speed enforcement issue in the US closely because my personal policy is to drive the limit except in isolated instances (generally when overtaking other vehicles).  In the UK, however, it is fairly common for speeding fines to be challenged on the basis of Home Office type approval for the speed-measuring device, use of the device under the specific conditions for which type approval was granted, training of the officer using it, etc.

P.S.  There is a common-law presumption that when a police officer and a witness without law enforcement responsibilities give conflicting evidence on a point for which no other evidence is available, the police officer's testimony is to be preferred.  But police testimony can always be impeached with objective evidence.

[algorerhythms]

It is a violation of the MUTCD to place unrelated signs on the same pole. Because route marker and speed limit signs are not related, the agency that installed these signs commited a MUTCD violation.
If you choose to fight the ticket, you should print off this page of the MUTCD and bring it with you to court.

Also, If it is below a route marker sign, It's probably not 7ft off the ground like it's supposed to be.

Back in the not-so-long ago days of the New Rome traffic ticket empire outside Columbus, they had Broad St (US 40) marked as 35 MPH....ODOT confirmed that the speed limit legally on that stretch of US 40 was 45, but every time they posted SL 45 signs, they would vanish in days and be replaced by SL 35 signs...and legally, they couldnt do much about it

Thankfully, the State of Ohio passed a law aimed at New Rome and similar traffic ticket emporiums where they had to provide certain services with their revenue...and if they failed to do so, their incorporations could be legally unincorporated by the Attorney General's office...(easy enough to prove or disprove when you looked at the streets and sidewalks of New Rome...they hadnt been repaired or redone since Truman was President, or so it appeared...)

So, even if the State DOT and MUTCD is on your side, it wont help you much if at all...

The city of Boulogne(sp?) FL  which is on US1/23/301 just after coming into Florida from Georgia was disincorporated by the state in the 1960s I think for over using traffic tickets as revenue. ( i am sure there was more to it) It was well known as a speed-trap in the pre-Interstate days

If using traffic tickets as revenue is grounds for disincorporation, then I'm looking forward to the day when Norman, Oklahoma, will be disincorporated...

[corco]

When I got to traffic court, there was no one there except one person working in the office. I wasn't allowed to do anything except pay the ticket (no plea) because the date on my ticket was supposedly wrong (but she couldn't tell me what day it was supposed to be).

Wait..really? I always thought that if ANYTHING on the ticket was wrong, the ticket was void and you automatically would not have had to pay it.

Either way I don't think the Constitution allows them to deny you the opportunity to defend yourself.

[agentsteel53]

Either way I don't think the Constitution allows them to deny you the opportunity to defend yourself.

the constitution is one thing, practical costs are another.

unfortunately, it's cheaper for US71 to pay the damn $195 as opposed to finding himself an attorney.  just like how I coughed up $144 when being issued a speeding ticket with reference to a speed limit sign that had been knocked face-down into the dirt ... eight states and a $340 flight away from where I lived at the time.