News:

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered from the forum database changes made in Fall 2023. Let us know if you discover anymore.

Main Menu

DST (2018)

Started by 02 Park Ave, February 08, 2018, 07:03:10 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

1995hoo

The Florida thing seems backwards to me because they're further south than the rest of Eastern Time and they already have longer days in the winter (sunset is half an hour to 40 minutes later on Christmas than it is in the DC area, for example) and shorter days in the summer.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.


abefroman329

It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.

kalvado

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 08, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.
It is more about if one size can fit all. Usually that is not the case.
Public schools and clock settings (or highway speed limit), however, is something that comes in one size only for a given location.

abefroman329

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 08, 2018, 07:27:21 AM
The Florida thing seems backwards to me because they're further south than the rest of Eastern Time and they already have longer days in the winter (sunset is half an hour to 40 minutes later on Christmas than it is in the DC area, for example) and shorter days in the summer.

Like kalvado said, you can't control for everything.  It's dark by 5 pm in the wintertime in Chicago, and it's light past 9 pm in the summertime in Western Michigan, but you have to put that pesky border between Eastern Time and Central Time somewhere.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 08, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.

There's research stating one thing, and then there's the reality.  School buses need to be coordinated.  Sport/Activity schedules need to be coordinated.  If you need X amount of time in the morning to get ready, get on the bus/drive to school at 7:30am, begin school at 8am; end at 3pm, start afterschool activities at 4pm, ends at 6pm, kid gets home at 7pm, then where do you fit in dinner and homework, because those same people say a teen needs 8 - 9 hours of sleep.  If you say there's 3 hours between 7pm and 10pm, then you have just tied up the kid with a strict, rigid schedule for an entire 24 hour period, 5 days a week. 

Oh, by the way, other researchers will say a rigid schedule with no time for relaxing/playing/etc. isn't good either. 

Which is why a lot of this so-called research is money well-wasted, because there's numerous conflictions among the research.  The news media, which often informs us of such research, would never do such comparisons.  They just like getting the press releases and doing stories on them.

hotdogPi

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2018, 12:45:16 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on March 08, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.

There's research stating one thing, and then there's the reality.  School buses need to be coordinated.  Sport/Activity schedules need to be coordinated.  If you need X amount of time in the morning to get ready, get on the bus/drive to school at 7:30am, begin school at 8am; end at 3pm, start afterschool activities at 4pm, ends at 6pm, kid gets home at 7pm, then where do you fit in dinner and homework, because those same people say a teen needs 8 - 9 hours of sleep.  If you say there's 3 hours between 7pm and 10pm, then you have just tied up the kid with a strict, rigid schedule for an entire 24 hour period, 5 days a week. 

Oh, by the way, other researchers will say a rigid schedule with no time for relaxing/playing/etc. isn't good either. 

Which is why a lot of this so-called research is money well-wasted, because there's numerous conflictions among the research.  The news media, which often informs us of such research, would never do such comparisons.  They just like getting the press releases and doing stories on them.

I seem to remember studies showing that if high schoolers start later, and elementary school kids start earlier (the opposite of pretty much everywhere), things will be better than the way it's currently done where high schoolers start earlier. Since it's just a switch and not shifting everyone earlier or later or removing the staggering, it shouldn't be hard to do.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: 1 on March 08, 2018, 12:50:37 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2018, 12:45:16 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on March 08, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.

There's research stating one thing, and then there's the reality.  School buses need to be coordinated.  Sport/Activity schedules need to be coordinated.  If you need X amount of time in the morning to get ready, get on the bus/drive to school at 7:30am, begin school at 8am; end at 3pm, start afterschool activities at 4pm, ends at 6pm, kid gets home at 7pm, then where do you fit in dinner and homework, because those same people say a teen needs 8 - 9 hours of sleep.  If you say there's 3 hours between 7pm and 10pm, then you have just tied up the kid with a strict, rigid schedule for an entire 24 hour period, 5 days a week. 

Oh, by the way, other researchers will say a rigid schedule with no time for relaxing/playing/etc. isn't good either. 

Which is why a lot of this so-called research is money well-wasted, because there's numerous conflictions among the research.  The news media, which often informs us of such research, would never do such comparisons.  They just like getting the press releases and doing stories on them.

I seem to remember studies showing that if high schoolers start later, and elementary school kids start earlier (the opposite of pretty much everywhere), things will be better than the way it's currently done where high schoolers start earlier. Since it's just a switch and not shifting everyone earlier or later or removing the staggering, it shouldn't be hard to do.

But then the 7 year old would be done school at 2:30pm.  Like I mentioned, there's the reality of the situation: If both parents work, the kid is in after-school daycare...and I doubt the studies referenced how the kid functions when it's in what's pretty much a structured environment until someone picks the kid up.

kalvado

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 08, 2018, 12:26:14 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 08, 2018, 07:27:21 AM
The Florida thing seems backwards to me because they're further south than the rest of Eastern Time and they already have longer days in the winter (sunset is half an hour to 40 minutes later on Christmas than it is in the DC area, for example) and shorter days in the summer.

Like kalvado said, you can't control for everything.  It's dark by 5 pm in the wintertime in Chicago, and it's light past 9 pm in the summertime in Western Michigan, but you have to put that pesky border between Eastern Time and Central Time somewhere.

Another option is to adjust local schedules to preferred time zone.
Just assume that proverbial 9-to-5 can be set to 8.30-to-4.30; or 8-to-4, or even 7-to-3 or 10-to-6, based on local preference (vote?).
I'm not sure if big banks, box stores or federal agencies  would give that much freedom to local branches; but fundamentally - why not?
That can create a way more continuous change of local timing compared to 1-hour zones.
Moreover, I believe a lot of things in California are already offset to better match customers in eastern time zone.

It doesn't solve a problem of early birds and night owls in a given city, but still is another knob to tweak. And an easier one compared to setting time zone  in terms of passing laws or clock discrepancies - although getting everyone on board is a different problem.

Scott5114

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2018, 01:06:19 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 08, 2018, 12:50:37 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2018, 12:45:16 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on March 08, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.

There's research stating one thing, and then there's the reality.  School buses need to be coordinated.  Sport/Activity schedules need to be coordinated.  If you need X amount of time in the morning to get ready, get on the bus/drive to school at 7:30am, begin school at 8am; end at 3pm, start afterschool activities at 4pm, ends at 6pm, kid gets home at 7pm, then where do you fit in dinner and homework, because those same people say a teen needs 8 - 9 hours of sleep.  If you say there's 3 hours between 7pm and 10pm, then you have just tied up the kid with a strict, rigid schedule for an entire 24 hour period, 5 days a week. 

Oh, by the way, other researchers will say a rigid schedule with no time for relaxing/playing/etc. isn't good either. 

Which is why a lot of this so-called research is money well-wasted, because there's numerous conflictions among the research.  The news media, which often informs us of such research, would never do such comparisons.  They just like getting the press releases and doing stories on them.

I seem to remember studies showing that if high schoolers start later, and elementary school kids start earlier (the opposite of pretty much everywhere), things will be better than the way it's currently done where high schoolers start earlier. Since it's just a switch and not shifting everyone earlier or later or removing the staggering, it shouldn't be hard to do.

But then the 7 year old would be done school at 2:30pm.  Like I mentioned, there's the reality of the situation: If both parents work, the kid is in after-school daycare...and I doubt the studies referenced how the kid functions when it's in what's pretty much a structured environment until someone picks the kid up.

So that means that we're putting the parent's wishes above what's best for the kid.

You can free up time by eliminating homework–schoolwork should be done at school where there's no distractions anyway. If kids need extra self- or parent-directed study time after school, that should be something determined by the parent's prerogative, not a mandatory burden placed on them by the school by assigning busywork to them on their way out the door.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

02 Park Ave

The bill in Florida to put the state on perpetual daylight savings time has passed both houses overwhelmingly.  If it is signed, or if a veto action would be overturned, there seems to be a conflict with Federal laws.

It would have been better if they had moved the state to the Atlantic time zone and then abandon daylight savings time.  That may have been easier to accomplish.
C-o-H

kalvado

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on March 09, 2018, 01:13:12 PM
The bill in Florida to put the state on perpetual daylight savings time has passed both houses overwhelmingly.  If it is signed, or if a veto action would be overturned, there seems to be a conflict with Federal laws.

It would have been better if they had moved the state to the Atlantic time zone and then abandon daylight savings time.  That may have been easier to accomplish.
Probably about the same, as far as I understand.
15 U.S. Code § 261 - Zones for standard time; interstate or foreign commerce - gives Secretary of Transportation (hello, we're back to road-related stuff!) authority on the subject

Quote
The limits of each zone shall be defined by an order of the Secretary of Transportation, having regard for the convenience of commerce [...] and any such order may be modified from time to time.

hbelkins

I can't see the feds overriding a state or local decision on this.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

NWI_Irish96

Being from Indiana, I'm pretty familiar with the process.

States can: decide whether or not to observe Daylight Savings Time
States can't: decide the start and stop dates for Daylight Savings Time

States can: petition the USDOT to change time zones.  The USDOT does not just rubber stamp these.  Some counties in Indiana have been denied requests to change time zones.

So, the Florida state government can't decide to observe EDT year round, but they can ask the USDOT to put the state in the Atlantic Time Zone and then not observe Daylight Savings Time which produces the same result.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

jeffandnicole

Quote from: cabiness42 on March 09, 2018, 02:33:01 PM
...
So, the Florida state government can't decide to observe EDT year round, but they can ask the USDOT to put the state in the Atlantic Time Zone and then not observe Daylight Savings Time which produces the same result.

People have been arguing for 6 pages about the placement of certain time zones.  If Florida were to be put into the Atlantic Time Zone, then you will suddenly have issues and arguments about how an Atlantic Time Zone state borders a Central Time Zone state. 

Based on the actual law, and Florida's desires, this is the correct way to go about it though.  Ironically, DST was intended to help those states in more northern climates.  Based on the purpose of the DST law, Florida should be year round EST, not AST.

kalvado

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 09, 2018, 02:48:08 PM
Ironically, DST was intended to help those states in more northern climates.  Based on the purpose of the DST law, Florida should be year round EST, not AST.
DST as a concept came from England. It doesn't quite work too far north,  it doesn't quite work in tropics....

english si

Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2018, 05:39:45 PMDST as a concept came from England.
Don't blame us, blame Kaiser Bill. Not only did the German Empire and Austria-Hungary start a bit earlier in 1916 (April 30th vs the UK's May 21st), the UK almost certainly wouldn't have bothered had we not been blockaded by U-boats and in desperate need to save energy and thus willing to try anything.
QuoteIt doesn't quite work too far north
Actually it does - in summer (definitely not October though) at 50N (ie London), there's a surplus of light hours in the mornings that shifting an hour makes more sense than at 40N (the Kansas-Nebraska line) where there's less time of the year where there's a surplus hour in the morning.

Of course, 60+ North gives you the lack of a need to change outside of a few weeks before/after the equinoxes as there's so much daylight, you don't need that extra hour after work as there's plenty of daylight around, and vice versa on the winter side of things - there's not enough daylight no matter how you position it. Something which is true at 50N for a few weeks around the solstices, I guess.

Brandon

Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2018, 05:39:45 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 09, 2018, 02:48:08 PM
Ironically, DST was intended to help those states in more northern climates.  Based on the purpose of the DST law, Florida should be year round EST, not AST.
DST as a concept came from England. It doesn't quite work too far north,  it doesn't quite work in tropics....

It did?  I could've sworn Ben Franklin had the idea before that.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

hotdogPi

Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2018, 08:38:06 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2018, 05:39:45 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 09, 2018, 02:48:08 PM
Ironically, DST was intended to help those states in more northern climates.  Based on the purpose of the DST law, Florida should be year round EST, not AST.
DST as a concept came from England. It doesn't quite work too far north,  it doesn't quite work in tropics....

It did?  I could've sworn Ben Franklin had the idea before that.

He mentioned something similar as a what-if scenario (it involved changing people's schedules, not the clocks themselves), but he was actually against the idea.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

KEVIN_224

This...on top of people who already tried to get Maine to be on Atlantic Standard Time year round.

02 Park Ave

If several New England states are now encouraged to also choose to move into the Atlantic time zone, the Secretary would be hard pressed to deny their requests.

The way the Eastern time zone is artifically extended westward in the mid-west is certainly precedant setting.
C-o-H

kalvado

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on March 10, 2018, 06:52:58 AM
If several New England states are now encouraged to also choose to move into the Atlantic time zone, the Secretary would be hard pressed to deny their requests.

The way the Eastern time zone is artifically extended westward in the mid-west is certainly precedant setting.
Another possible argument - day is not really symmetric for most people. Many of us wake up, go to work, and relax in the evening. No more need to feed pigs and milk cows before actual work. So in order to align sleeping cycle with solar cycle, solar noon has to be well past middle of working day. That is, well past 1 PM for 9-to-5 day; 2 PM may be it.
That means extending time zones westward and trimming from the east in general. That is the underlying thing for New England and Atlantic time I believe.

Now, as discussed above, sending kids to school is a modern replacement for milking cows - a significant task to be done before work... And those who have to do it and those who don't have somewhat different perspectives...

Rothman

DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.  I am not persuaded that it works for northern latitudes, at least the American way.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

jp the roadgeek

Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2018, 07:53:55 AM
DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.  I am not persuaded that it works for northern latitudes, at least the American way.

It's the fact that we change the time, not the time itself, that is the issue.  I would be fine if NY from the Syracuse area east, New England, and most of the Mid-Atlantic (all of NJ and DE, DC, eastern PA, most of MD, a couple of counties in WV, and eastern VA) sprung ahead this weekend, then stayed there as it officially became part of AST. 
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

vdeane

As a night owl who can't align her schedule to her circadian rhythm, with chronic insomnia, and possible delayed sleep phase syndrome, I would be very much opposed to permanent DST or AST.

http://www.miami.com/funny-stories/florida-wants-daylight-saving-time-year-round-this-is-going-to-be-a-hot-mess-184636/

That said, I WOULD expand the UTC - 4 time zone... by adding parts of Québec, the main part of Newfoundland, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Chile, Argentina, Paraguay, and Uruguay.  Possibly part of Greenland too.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

english si

Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2018, 07:53:55 AMDST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.
Surely the Spring time change (the one you are talking about) and morning sun, is something where being north is an advantage - at the equinox/near it the days quickly get longer - and more so the further from the equator you are.

Now sure, the amount of time on DST is too long (especially in the fall), and this morning's 0615 sunrise in New York City isn't early enough to steal an hour (nor the 0614 EST that it would be tomorrow if it wasn't 0715 EDST), but NYC days get 160-163 seconds more daylight each day as this month gets on. The next 0615 sunrise in NYC is April 16th - that's 5 week's time, so we're looking at changing around a month too early.

In London, nearly 11 degrees further north, it was an 0626 sunrise this morning, but days get longer quicker than in NYC (235 to 240 seconds this month) and the sun rises at 0627 on the 5th of April - 11 days before NYC recovers that hour of daylight in the morning. There's 3 days of pre-6am sunrises in London this month (due to 'springing forward' in two weeks time), and the third day after the change is less than a month later (20th April). I think the last Sunday in March change time is about right - it's not perfect, but at least the equinox can be used as an excuse. If only we changed back in late September rather than a terrible October where it's too dark - a 6-6 split also makes more sense than a 7-5 (and definitely better than a US 8-4 split with two weeks more at each end vs European dates)

In Reykjavik, 12.5 degrees north of London, today's 0804 sunrise is 0703 by the 27th (they don't do DST, and are on WET, which is about 88 minutes ahead of solar time, so basically perminant DST) and the days get longer by 391 to 394 seconds. Sunset today was at 1913 and by the time they get enough sun in the morning to enable a shift of a hour and still have a roughly half-6 sunrise the sun is already setting at 20 past 9 - there's no use for the extra hour of daylight in the evening at all.

Jacksonville, roughly 10 degrees south of NYC, but also further west (30 minutes - Jacksonville is 26 minutes behind EST wrt solar time vs NYC's 4 minutes ahead): sunrise was at 0642, but with days only getting longer by 118 to 121 seconds/day, the next 0642 sunrise is May 2nd - 6 and a half weeks time!

Being further north allows one to recover that hour in the morning quickly having shifted it, but being too far north makes it pretty pointless to shift it as it's already light late.

As well as a specific routine that means that DST makes sense (industrial, fixed work patterns - ie the '9-to-5'), it's very much a temperate thing - Florida is far enough south that it isn't worth it, Iceland too far north to be worthwhile



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.