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DST (2018)

Started by 02 Park Ave, February 08, 2018, 07:03:10 PM

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kalvado

Quote from: kkt on March 20, 2018, 01:49:43 PM
Laws vary from state to state.  I wouldn't make claims about any state I hadn't worked in.
Original statement included county doing this and that. Since county is more than likely to get some federal funding (grants and what not), there has to be some compliance with OMB requirements, making it more uniform.


jakeroot

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 20, 2018, 12:20:06 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on March 20, 2018, 11:18:02 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 17, 2018, 08:51:22 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 17, 2018, 05:17:33 AM
Quote from: slorydn1 on March 17, 2018, 02:00:32 AM
Quote from: kkt on March 14, 2018, 12:12:11 PM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.

Yep.  What the county is doing is illegal.

Not necessarily.  My wife works for a local municipality part-time and her straight time/overtime is calculated on an annual basis.  Since she doesn't get PTO, if she wants to take a week off, she can make up the hours during the rest of the month, or even in another month.

Their policy doesn't make it legal.

If someone is working more than 40 hours per week and works on a per-hour basis, they should be getting overtime.  Even if there's an agreement in place, it can still be afoul of regulations.  I would also think that this is a verbal agreement too, especially if it would put someone over 40 hours.

Now, that all said - does this happen? Sure.  A lot.  But there's a difference between what employee and employers agree to, and what is the law.  And it's certainly not unheard of for someone to file or participate in a lawsuit years later, claiming they worked more than 40 hours and weren't compensated for it. 
Quote from: kkt on March 20, 2018, 01:49:43 PM
Laws vary from state to state.  I wouldn't make claims about any state I hadn't worked in.

It's hard to believe that there's a state that allows workers to work more than 40 hours a week without additional compensation.

As for oddities, I signed an agreement with my employer that allows me to skip breaks. I'm a valet for the time being, and we have downtime between each car. So we signed an agreement acknowledging that downtime, and that we don't need to take a mandated 30 minute break. I can't remember if the document came from my employer or from L&I, but I haven't taken a "break" in almost four years. On the plus side, I work exactly eight hours a day.

hbelkins

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on March 19, 2018, 01:54:02 PM
Should wanting DST be considered a moral weakness?

Everyone should want the Sun directly overhead at Noon and then accept naturally resulting sunrise and sunset times.

Anyone who wants more sunlight in the evening should realize that they would be taking it away from the morning with DST not some how manufacturing more of it.

Let Noon be Noon!

Quote from: kkt on March 19, 2018, 10:30:51 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on March 19, 2018, 01:54:02 PM
Should wanting DST be considered a moral weakness?

Everyone should want the Sun directly overhead at Noon and then accept naturally resulting sunrise and sunset times.

Anyone who wants more sunlight in the evening should realize that they would be taking it away from the morning with DST not some how manufacturing more of it.

Let Noon be Noon!

In my experience very people care about noon being when the sun is right overhead, but a lot care about there being at least a little light in the sky when they get up.


I don't give a crap when the sun is directly overhead. That doesn't have any impact on me.

And I don't need daylight in the mornings. In the mornings, I'm being awakened by an alarm clock, taking a shower, and then getting dressed and going to work. I don't need daylight for any of that.

I'd rather have my daylight when I get home in the evenings, to allow me to be able to do a few things outside before it gets dark. And in the winter, on standard time, it being nearly dark by the time I leave work and pretty much dark when I get home is downright depressing. I'd still rather it be dark in the mornings.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Scott5114

Quote from: kkt on March 20, 2018, 01:49:43 PM
Laws vary from state to state.  I wouldn't make claims about any state I hadn't worked in.

FLSA is a federal law.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: jakeroot on March 20, 2018, 02:36:58 PMIt's hard to believe that there's a state that allows workers to work more than 40 hours a week without additional compensation.

"that allows non-exempt workers to work more than 40 hours a week".

There are a bunch of us out there who are exempt from overtime requirements.

tradephoric

The national pastime is baseball.  A typical start time for a MLB night game is 7:10pm.  The average length of an MLB game is 3 hours, 5 minutes, and 11 seconds.... but longer games can stretch out to 4 hours.   So the game is over around 11 o'clock.  After watching the top stories of their local 11 o'clock news, people are ready for bed.  While TV streaming services are breaking down this structured routine, people still want to feel plugged in and watch these "live"  events.  It's not just sports... some people might want to watch that live 2-hour bachelor finale so they can gossip all about it the next day with their coworkers.

The point is most American's don't base their sleep schedule on sunrise/sunset times.  People go to bed after their favorite television program is over... and prime-time programming ends at 11pm.   So a typical American's sleep schedule is most likely something like this... go to bed at 11pm, get 7 hours sleep, wake up at 6am for work/school.  Would year-round DST favor the typical American's sleep schedule?  Even with year-round DST it still favors morning people.  Just look at this chart again... what percentage of American's are sleeping at 6PM?  Compared to the percentage of American's asleep at 8AM it's not that high.



US 89

Quote from: tradephoric on March 21, 2018, 09:27:20 AM
People go to bed after their favorite television program is over... and prime-time programming ends at 11pm.

Only in the Eastern or Pacific time zone. In the Central and Mountain time zones, as well as Alaska and Hawaii, prime time ends at 10 PM.

english si

Quote from: tradephoric on March 21, 2018, 09:27:20 AMEven with year-round DST it still favors morning people.
Of course year-round DST favours morning people inherently - DST is about helping morning people not fall asleep during those late-finishing baseball games (which is surely hard work even for evening people - there's a reason they have big organs playing during baseball :)), etc, while going back in winter is about having it that evening people can still, just about, get up in the morning for work.

Evening people can do stuff long after dark - that's what makes them evening people! Morning people wake up earlier because they need less light in the morning before waking up.
Quotewhat percentage of American's are sleeping at 6PM?  Compared to the percentage of American's asleep at 8AM it's not that high
Indeed - which is why the industrialised temperate (ie no siestas) world went with a 9-5 day - we naturally get tired after-dark, but are not done with sleep until after-dawn (that might not be a continuous block during the night, and there might be an afternoon nap).

That more people are asleep 4-5 hours before solar noon than 5-6 hours after shows that we don't actually need light evenings as much as light mornings. Yes, morning people need light evenings more and evening people need light mornings more, but we aren't awake dawn-til-dusk, with noon in the middle. That doesn't mean that the sun is irrelevant - it very much is, but that our day is meant to be shifted towards the after-noon, so we should shift our days earlier (compared to the sun) with great care.

kkt

People really stay up just to watch the news?  I thought following broadcast schedules was a thing of the past.
My bedtime routine is a few pages of a relaxing book to take me away from the troubles of the day, not add to it with Trump's latest tweet.

Pete from Boston

Quote from: kalvado on March 19, 2018, 11:25:12 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 19, 2018, 10:48:00 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on March 19, 2018, 10:34:07 AM
Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice... depressing!



But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!

resolving algorithm:
1. define criteria: latest sunrise time acceptable, earliest sunset time acceptable, etc..
2. determine sunrise and sunset times for different time zone settings
3. realize anything would make many people unhappy
4. Send B-52 with nukes to make problem non-existent
5. Proceed to a next location

#3 is the only constant, which is why I urge people to walk away from the whole thing, but the social engineer in too many of us can't seem to give up.

kalvado

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 22, 2018, 12:21:31 AM

#3 is the only constant, which is why I urge people to walk away from the whole thing, but the social engineer in too many of us can't seem to give up.
Yep, setting clock fixed and walking away would work. Twice a year disruptive clock change isva good way to keep triggering people...

formulanone

The only answer that would make anyone happy with time changes are 6-hour schooldays and workdays. No more clock meddling!

I think many of us can live with that proposal.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: jakeroot on March 20, 2018, 02:36:58 PM
I can't remember if the document came from my employer or from L&I, but I haven't taken a "break" in almost four years. On the plus side, I work exactly eight hours a day.

"Anyone seen Jake lately?"

"Yeah, he's taking another 'break' in that Porsche over there."

kkt

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 22, 2018, 08:52:04 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 20, 2018, 02:36:58 PM
I can't remember if the document came from my employer or from L&I, but I haven't taken a "break" in almost four years. On the plus side, I work exactly eight hours a day.

"Anyone seen Jake lately?"

"Yeah, he's taking another 'break' in that Porsche over there."

Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)

webny99

The Canadian province of Saskatchewan, for some unknown reason, does not observe DST at all.

If this thread keeps going until November, we won't need to start a new one then  :D

jakeroot

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 22, 2018, 08:52:04 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 20, 2018, 02:36:58 PM
I can't remember if the document came from my employer or from L&I, but I haven't taken a "break" in almost four years. On the plus side, I work exactly eight hours a day.

"Anyone seen Jake lately?"

"Yeah, he's taking another 'break' in that Porsche over there."



Quote from: kkt on March 22, 2018, 12:38:04 PM
Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)

No fucking way I'd touch that car.

tradephoric

Quote from: webny99 on March 22, 2018, 02:16:34 PM
The Canadian province of Saskatchewan, for some unknown reason, does not observe DST at all.

If this thread keeps going until November, we won't need to start a new one then  :D

DST is less beneficial to states/provinces on the western edge of a timezone.  These locations already experience later sunsets than states/provinces on the eastern edge of a time zone.  If you look at a DST map of North America, Saskatchewan is really more in line with the Mountain Time Zone than the Central Time Zone.  But since Saskatchewan is on the "extreme" western edge of the Central Time Zone, they don't really benefit from DST because they already get late sunsets in the summer.  Even without DST, people from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan enjoy summer solstice sunsets at 9:31pm.  With DST the sun would go down at 10:31pm.


1995hoo

That map appears to be slightly out of date in that since 2015 Quintana Roo observes what in the US is called Eastern Standard Time year-round (Mexico calls the time zone Southeastern, or I guess whatever the Spanish equivalent is) without DST.

The map does underscore the absurdity of Florida ever being on Atlantic Time (or the equivalent of whatever would be an hour ahead of Washington and New York).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

kalvado

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2018, 03:36:44 PM
That map appears to be slightly out of date in that since 2015 Quintana Roo observes what in the US is called Eastern Standard Time year-round (Mexico calls the time zone Southeastern, or I guess whatever the Spanish equivalent is) without DST.

The map does underscore the absurdity of Florida ever being on Atlantic Time (or the equivalent of whatever would be an hour ahead of Washington and New York).
Honestly speaking, I don't see a good reason for time zone lines to go strictly north-south if we're aiming at best utilizing daylight, not the ease of astronomic observations.

1995hoo

Quote from: kalvado on March 22, 2018, 03:41:59 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2018, 03:36:44 PM
That map appears to be slightly out of date in that since 2015 Quintana Roo observes what in the US is called Eastern Standard Time year-round (Mexico calls the time zone Southeastern, or I guess whatever the Spanish equivalent is) without DST.

The map does underscore the absurdity of Florida ever being on Atlantic Time (or the equivalent of whatever would be an hour ahead of Washington and New York).
Honestly speaking, I don't see a good reason for time zone lines to go strictly north-south if we're aiming at best utilizing daylight, not the ease of astronomic observations.

I don't disagree with that. I was just trying to comment–perhaps not very effectively–on how much further west Florida is than people generally realize.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Brandon

Quote from: jakeroot on March 22, 2018, 02:39:42 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 22, 2018, 12:38:04 PM
Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)

No fucking way I'd touch that car.

If you had access to a car like this, would you take it back right away?

Neither would I.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2018, 03:52:27 PM
I don't disagree with that. I was just trying to comment–perhaps not very effectively–on how much further west Florida is than people generally realize.

Here's an interesting graphic that might help put things in context:

http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV2.png

It's a map showing the difference between standard time and solar time around the world.

We also have this:
https://bostonraremaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/BRM2573-Chicago_Alton-RR-1884_lowres-3000x2153.jpg

...which shows the railroads' original time zone boundaries.

kkt

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on March 22, 2018, 05:10:57 PM
Here's an interesting graphic that might help put things in context:

http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV2.png

It's a map showing the difference between standard time and solar time around the world.

That is a helpful map.  Indiana is in the wrong time zone.  But not as wrong as Argentina.

kalvado

Quote from: kkt on March 22, 2018, 05:30:11 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on March 22, 2018, 05:10:57 PM
Here's an interesting graphic that might help put things in context:

http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV2.png

It's a map showing the difference between standard time and solar time around the world.

That is a helpful map.  Indiana is in the wrong time zone.  But not as wrong as Argentina.
There is no right and wrong here. There may be wrong scheduling.

I am OK with my lunch break being somewhat after astronomic noon, and (assuming break is in the middle of a work day) would be fine with break starting at 10 and workday starting at 6 - if solar noon is at 9.30. Wouldn't you be OK with that?

tradephoric

Here's another interesting map showing the hours of daylight during the winter solstice.  While Florida already gets about 2 more hours of daylight than some of the northern lower 48 states, Florida is the state actively pursing year-round DST in their legislator.  Of course the weather in Florida can still be quite pleasant in December, whereas people in the northern states are hibernating for the winter... not many people in North Dakota are having BBQs in mid-December where people in Florida would enjoy a few more BBQs during the pleasant winter evenings. 



The argument against year-round DST is that the children would have to wait for the bus in the dark during the winter months.  Well guess what... if you live in a state on the western edge of a timezone a lot of kids ALREADY have to wait for the bus in the dark.  The point is all these arguments for why DST is good/bad are pretty arbitrary.  An argument that may apply for people on the border of Indiana may not apply to the people on the border of Illinois (ie. the timezone line).  Since so many of these arguments become arbitrary, Congress should just pick a time system that doesn't involve changing the clocks twice a year and stick with it.



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