DST (2018)

[MNHighwayMan]

Let's just face the facts: it's never going to be perfect, no matter where you are or what time zone you decide upon.

All I desire is to end the archaic practice of changing the clock twice a year. I don't care if (for me) that results in UTC-6 or UTC-5 permanently, or whether that means dark mornings or dark evenings at certain times during the year. Just, for crying out loud, pick one and stick with it. I feel like the twice annual time change is more disruptive to my life than waking up while it's still dark outside for a couple months of the year.

[jeffandnicole]

You could always live on the equator.

[02 Park Ave]

Everyone should just accept that the Sun should be directly overhead at Noon every day year round and adjust their life's schedule to suit.

Let Noon be Noon.

[oscar]

You could always live on the equator.

Or Hawaii, which is close enough to the equator that there's only a two-hour difference in daylight between the solstices. It doesn't do daylight savings for that reason, and also staying in synch with non-DST countries like Japan is more important than synching with the rest of the U.S.

Of course, this is a pricey option. The cost-of-living differential from the rest of the U.S. (dubbed the "paradise tax") is estimated to be over 30%.

[wxfree]

Everyone should just accept that the Sun should be directly overhead at Noon every day year round and adjust their life's schedule to suit.

Let Noon be Noon.

I consider myself to be a more acutely aware than average observer of nature, but I have never noticed solar noon.  If I sat and watched the shadows I could figure out noon after it happened (maybe as it's happening with some solar viewing glasses), but the sun is never directly overhead as far away from the equator as most of us are, and nowhere is directly overhead more than two days per year.  The time when the sun reaches its high point and the shadows start to get longer is something I don't think most people notice.

[jakeroot]

Let's just face the facts: it's never going to be perfect, no matter where you are or what time zone you decide upon.

I do find it funny that after 16 pages, we are only just now coming to the conclusion that, no matter what we do to our time zones, we will never satisfy everyone. I think this is why DST rules almost never change.

[english si]

Even if i move to Florida it's pitch dark by 6PM in the winter!  That's still way too damn early.

Alternate between hemispheres so you don't have to deal with winter (which is your real problem).

Either that or don't care about what an artificial number on a round thing says!

Of course if we went to permanent DST....

Why not go the whole hog and run on UTC, so then in winter the sun sets at 9pm or whatever?

Just don't force other people to have to comply with your own idiocy - I'd imagine vdeane will go insane getting up 6 hours before dawn to go to work in mid-winter.

You could always live on the equator.

But then the sun sets around 6pm whatever season (they don't really do winter/summer) - it would be like endless winter, only with minimum temperatures being about 85!

All I desire is to end the archaic practice of changing the clock twice a year.

Not changing the clock is the archaic (or perhaps the 'natural') practice*. DST has only been implemented for 102 years (brought in as war-time rationing of electricity so that energy could go into bombs and guns).

*What we did before the Industrial Revolution was this strange thing called sleeping more in winter and less in summer - we still do, but try not to as we feel the tick-tock of small little mechanisms/circuits rules us and the giant ball of flaming gas that gives us our energy doesn't.

[tradephoric]

I believe the best alternative is to have permanent DST but allow states/provinces to opt out and remain on standard time year-round (as Arizona, Hawaii, and Saskatchewan currently do).  This way a region on the western edge of a time zone can choose not to observe permanent DST, thus giving them the same sunrise time in the winter that they are currently accustomed to (with the understanding that sunsets will be an hour earlier in the Summer).  If this occurred I believe Saskatchewan and Arizona would remain on standard time, and Utah and Idaho would join Arizona's lead (drastically reducing the size of the Mountain time zone).  And who knows what Indiana would decide to do.  This is the time zone map I envision if permanent DST was approved nationwide. 

[vdeane]

I agree that this is less about "lack of daylight" and more about "lack of summer".  Many people seem to not like seasons beyond consuming Cadbury Eggs and Pumpkin Spice Lattes.

What little sunlight we have during the winter months is wasted on the monotony of getting ready for work in the morning.  Do you really enjoy the sun as you pluck your eyebrows in the bathroom, brush your teeth, and take a shower?  Hell no!

At least it's not indistinguishable than midnight.  I already have enough things in life and society that depress me; I don't need to think about having to get up before anything even resembling the crack of dawn for at least half the year for a minimum of the next 36 years.

You just described the sleep pattern of millions of working Americans.  Now if you wake up at noon in Bangor, Maine during the winter, you only have 3 hours and 57 minutes of daylight left (and have already wasted nearly 5 hours of daylight).   Talk about a crappy start to the weekend.

I'm pretty sure most people don't sleep in that late, even on the weekends.  Dad gets up around 10 on the weekends.  Mom sometimes sleeps in until 8 or 9, but it's rare for her to get up later than 7.  I imagine that's more typical, especially since society favors morning larks.  Year-round DST would make lark favoritism more pervasive, not less, since owls are already accustomed to being awake and doing things well after sunset.

There is a lot of things that Florida is nuts about, but this isn't one of them.  Let's just admit that people who live in the northern states are pretty much screwed during the winter... regardless of exactly when the sun rises or sets.  But in Florida you can have pleasant evenings during the winter months.  Why not spend an hour longer on the golf course, go out to dinner at the beach, or enjoy a BBQ after work?  These winter activities are limited when it's pitch dark in Florida at 5:59 pm (that's when civil twilight ends in Orlando during the winter solstice).

Honestly, I would consider those to be summer activities.  Regarding going out to dinner, don't restaurants have lights with outdoor seating?  Up north, sunset isn't considered a requirement to stop eating.

[formulanone]

Honestly, I would consider those to be summer activities.  Regarding going out to dinner, don't restaurants have lights with outdoor seating?  Up north, sunset isn't considered a requirement to stop eating.

Florida has two seasons: summer and roughly 48 hours of winter.

[kalvado]

Honestly, I would consider those to be summer activities.  Regarding going out to dinner, don't restaurants have lights with outdoor seating?  Up north, sunset isn't considered a requirement to stop eating.

Florida has two seasons: summer and roughly 48 hours of winter.

Better that in some places up north where people do get beautiful summer - but you have some important meetings on that particular day..

[english si]

For those thinking about shifting the clocks forward an hour permanantly, here's the UK debate that saw the trial period 50 years ago not be continued (it was rejected strongly): https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1970/dec/02/british-standard-time

Which, of course, is the second time we'd returned to GMT with summer time, having moved to GMT+1 (with summer time) in autumn 1940 and having double summer time in 1941-45, dropping the double summer time soon after VE day (to the relief of the nation!) and going back to GMT in October '45. We didn't look back at moving to CET being a good idea for a generation (this time without summer time). The same happened with the 'British Standard Time' experiment, only for longer, and as MPs too young to remember start pushing it, they are failing miserably with it thankfully.

[MNHighwayMan]

All I desire is to end the archaic practice of changing the clock twice a year.

Not changing the clock is the archaic (or perhaps the 'natural') practice*. DST has only been implemented for 102 years (brought in as war-time rationing of electricity so that energy could go into bombs and guns).

Yeah, perhaps 'archaic' was the wrong word of choice. Either way, I still believe the practice is outdated in current society and should be done away with.

[hbelkins]

I don't need to think about having to get up before anything even resembling the crack of dawn for at least half the year for a minimum of the next 36 years.

You will have to work that long? In Kentucky, state employees and teachers can retire after 27 years with full benefits.

[vdeane]

Most NY employees (Tier 4) can retire without penalty if they're over 55 and have 30 years of service, but since I'm newer than most employees (Tier 6), I have to wait until I'm 63.

[hbelkins]

Most NY employees (Tier 4) can retire without penalty if they're over 55 and have 30 years of service, but since I'm newer than most employees (Tier 6), I have to wait until I'm 63.

That's not unreasonable. I'm 56, and will only have 20 years of state service this year. Do the math; I won't have 27 years in until I'm 63. Of course, the reality is that I will have to work until I die and will never be able to retire. And even if that was not the case, my intent was always to work, if able, until I'm 70 and then would be eligible for the top tier of Social Security benefits, assuming SS is still in place by then.

[kkt]

*What we did before the Industrial Revolution was this strange thing called sleeping more in winter and less in summer - we still do, but try not to as we feel the tick-tock of small little mechanisms/circuits rules us and the giant ball of flaming gas that gives us our energy doesn't.

More specifically, we got up when it got to be light enough to see, and went to bed when it got to be too dark to see.  Candles or oil were expensive and not bright enough to do many kinds of activities.

Clocks didn't get to be a daily part of life for ordinary people until the mid-19th century and we needed them to catch trains and report for our shift at the mill.  So really it was only about 60 years between clocks being commonplace and the beginning of DST use.  People light getting up when it gets light.

[02 Park Ave]

There was also that concept of a "Second Sleep".

[jwolfer]

Midnight snack came from this. It the wake time between first and second sleep

Z981

[english si]

More specifically, we got up when it got to be light enough to see, and went to bed when it got to be too dark to see.

While that is broadly the case, it is wrong in those specifics.

It also fuels stuff like tradephoric's nonsense that you can't eat dinner after dark!

Candles or oil were expensive and not bright enough to do many kinds of activities.

Other stuff burns and gives light - cheaper stuff like wood...

And not being able to many kinds of activities doesn't mean all you could do was sleep. You could still eat, drink, talk, tell stories, play music, dance, generally be merry.

Of course, your fire would wane overnight, so these sorts of things were harder pre-dawn than post-dusk.

[vdeane]

Most NY employees (Tier 4) can retire without penalty if they're over 55 and have 30 years of service, but since I'm newer than most employees (Tier 6), I have to wait until I'm 63.

That's not unreasonable. I'm 56, and will only have 20 years of state service this year. Do the math; I won't have 27 years in until I'm 63. Of course, the reality is that I will have to work until I die and will never be able to retire. And even if that was not the case, my intent was always to work, if able, until I'm 70 and then would be eligible for the top tier of Social Security benefits, assuming SS is still in place by then.

I don't disagree.  Still depressing to think about when dragging myself out of bed in the morning, though.  If only I could do something about my insomnia so I could actually wake up refreshed.

[tradephoric]

It also fuels stuff like tradephoric's nonsense that you can't eat dinner after dark!

I obviously never said you can't eat dinner after dark, it's just that most people don't want to fire up the BBQ once it gets dark outside (and in Florida it's dark by 6PM during the winter solstice).  Also, the main attraction of a beach side restaurant in Florida is... wait for it... the beach!  Yes, tourists in Florida during the winter will still eat dinner once it gets dark out, but they may not be enticed to go to that fancy beach side restaurant knowing it's pitch dark out and won't be able to enjoy the water/sunset/hot girls walking around in bikinis/etc.  Instead, maybe they end up eating SPAM in their hotel room... tourist money lost (good for sales of SPAM though!).  You would have to go to dinner by 4:30pm if you'd like to enjoy the sunset during your meal.... and you can argue that tourists should adjust their schedules if they want to enjoy that sunset during dinner, but if anything tourists are likely to sleep in longer during their week-long winter break and aren't thinking about going to dinner at 4:30pm when they are accustomed to eating at 6pm back home.

[jeffandnicole]

It also fuels stuff like tradephoric's nonsense that you can't eat dinner after dark!

I obviously never said you can't eat dinner after dark, it's just that most people don't want to fire up the BBQ once it gets dark outside (and in Florida it's dark by 6PM during the winter solstice).  Also, the main attraction of a beach side restaurant in Florida is... wait for it... the beach!  Yes, tourists in Florida during the winter will still eat dinner once it gets dark out, but they may not be enticed to go to that fancy beach side restaurant knowing it's pitch dark out and won't be able to enjoy the water/sunset/hot girls walking around in bikinis/etc.  Instead, maybe they end up eating SPAM in their hotel room... tourist money lost (good for sales of SPAM though!).  You would have to go to dinner by 4:30pm if you'd like to enjoy the sunset during your meal.... and you can argue that tourists should adjust their schedules if they want to enjoy that sunset during dinner, but if anything tourists are likely to sleep in longer during their week-long winter break and aren't thinking about going to dinner at 4:30pm when they are accustomed to eating at 6pm back home.

I take it you're not in Florida during winter all that often, are you?

[tradephoric]

^It's about what Floridians want.  The Florida Senate nearly unanimously passed the Sunshine Protection Act, which would keep Daylight Saving time permanent in the state.  There were only two dissenters in the Senate bill and the Florida House passed it by a vote of 103-11.  In addition, public polls show tremendous support for getting rid of the time changes.

[02 Park Ave]

If that is what the people of Florida want, perhaps no one there will change their clocks next November.  Then they will have achieved what they want without having to lift a finger.