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DST (2018)

Started by 02 Park Ave, February 08, 2018, 07:03:10 PM

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webny99

In order of my personal preference:

(1) As-is: 6:15 AM to 8:02 PM
(2) Double DST: 7:15 AM to :9:02 PM
(3) No DST: 5:15 AM to 7:02 PM

Not really a fan of either of the last two, so might as well leave it as-is. But may the debate continue - the fall time change is approaching  :paranoid: :D


NWI_Irish96

My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
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Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

jeffandnicole

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

The problem isn't the time zone...it's where you live. 

You need to move further south to have a lot more consistency.  Orlando, Miami, even New Orleans will have sunrises mostly between 6 & 7.  The further north you are, the greater variance you'll have.

tradephoric

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.

tradephoric

According to  Skopos Labs, Senate Bill S. 2537: Sunshine Protection Act of 2018 has a 13% chance of passing.  This is a bill that would make Daylight Saving Time permanent throughout the country.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/115/s2537/summary

Road Hog

If it passes, I'd bet folding money it would be repealed within a year. I personally like the idea because I hate when it gets dark at 5, but I sense great opposition to it.

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: tradephoric on April 24, 2018, 10:33:33 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.

Note that I said largest possible percentage.  If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, that would push a lot of summer sunrises before 6am.  The farther north you are, the larger the variance in your daylight times, and the smaller that 'largest possible percentage' becomes.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

hotdogPi

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 12:32:24 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on April 24, 2018, 10:33:33 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.

Note that I said largest possible percentage.  If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, that would push a lot of summer sunrises before 6am.  The farther north you are, the larger the variance in your daylight times, and the smaller that 'largest possible percentage' becomes.
If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, this would result in the maximum number of days with sunrise between 6 AM and 7 AM. The closer it is to the solstice, the less difference from day to day.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Scott5114

I wish my time zone would be adjusted so that we wouldn't have the same debate about this posted twice a year. . .
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

jeffandnicole

I'm not about to go thru the pages to test this theory, but I wonder if most of the people here upset and/or wanting DST changed live further north where they're more affected by it.

02 Park Ave

Everyone, except those in two states, is affected because the clocks have to be changed twice a year with DST.
C-o-H

MNHighwayMan

#436
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 25, 2018, 08:24:43 AM
I'm not about to go thru the pages to test this theory, but I wonder if most of the people here upset and/or wanting DST changed live further north where they're more affected by it.

Eh, I've lived most of my life further north (north of the 45th parallel, although now I don't), and I hate DST. Not because of when it puts sunrise and sunset (or because of what time those things are when it isn't in effect), but because I have to change my clock and adjust my daily routine twice a year.

webny99

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 25, 2018, 07:41:44 AM
I wish my time zone would be adjusted so that we wouldn't have the same debate about this posted twice a year. . .

Actually, I've been trying to keep the thread active to remind people that it exists. That way, we can use this thread come fall instead of someone starting a new one  :-P

Regarding the northern latitudes, I consider Upstate NY to be a northern latitude (relative to most of the US). Despite this, I have no real problems with DST as it exists now. We still have long evenings in the summer and short evenings in the winter... but no matter how big your annual daylight swing is, it still comes down to whether you want the daylight in the morning or the evening. DST works as a happy-medium, and eliminating it (or doubling it) would be by far inferior options.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on April 25, 2018, 08:40:39 AM
Everyone, except those in two states, is affected because the clocks have to be changed twice a year with DST.

Depends on how one is 'affected'.  Taking the most recent sub-discussion, revolving around consistent sunrises, someone in Florida will be less affected than someone in Maine.  That's what I'm getting at.  If we're talking about the effect of changing clocks twice a year, then we might as well have a whole thread about power outages when we need to go around resetting clocks when the power returns.

kkt

Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 25, 2018, 08:24:43 AM
I'm not about to go thru the pages to test this theory, but I wonder if most of the people here upset and/or wanting DST changed live further north where they're more affected by it.

My own theory is that people who live south of about 35 degrees north don't feel much benefit from DST because their day length doesn't change as much, so they object more strongly to changing their clocks.
People north of 35 also dislike changing their clocks, but they feel the benefit of changing more.

(And people in non-panhandle Alaska have such extreme variation that nothing is going help them get sunrise around the right time of day, so they might as well not bother with the time change if it weren't for a consistent time difference to other places in the world.)

Scott5114

Quote from: webny99 on April 25, 2018, 09:21:07 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 25, 2018, 07:41:44 AM
I wish my time zone would be adjusted so that we wouldn't have the same debate about this posted twice a year. . .

Actually, I've been trying to keep the thread active to remind people that it exists. That way, we can use this thread come fall instead of someone starting a new one  :-P

Yeah, it will be great. Everyone will post the exact same things they did in the last 17 pages. There will be one important difference, which is that the dates on each post will start with "2018-10-" instead of "2018-04-".

Then stay tuned for another 17 pages of the exact same arguments, with post dates beginning "2019-03-"!
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

tradephoric

In the summary of Senate Bill S. 2537, it discusses how Russia went back to standard time in 2014 after switching to permanent DST in 2011. 

QuoteRussia switched to permanent DST in 2011, but reversed themselves in 2014due primarily to the unpopularity of such late sunrises during the winter – with most of the country's populace waking up, getting ready, and commuting to work in complete darkness.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/115/s2537/summary

One important note though... the solar noon in many Russian cities running standard time is still later than what solar noon would be in North America cities running permanent DST.  In another post, I had mentioned that many regions in the world are in the wrong time-zone if you are basing it strictly on longitude.  Many countries seem to favor to push back their solar noon to later in the day, by having their time-zones intrude into western time-zone neighbors.  For whatever reason, America doesn't push their time-zones to intrude much into their western time-zone neighbor.  So essentially, permanent DST in America would act much the same way that standard time does in the rest of the world.  Consider Valverde del Fresno, Spain... the sun doesn't set till 10PM  during the summer solstice.  You can't find that late of a sunset in America along the same latitude... for example Lafayette, Indiana is on the extreme western edge of the Eastern Time Zone and has the same latitude as Valverde del Fresno....  the sun sets there at 9:20PM... a full 40 minutes earlier.

tradephoric

Quote from: tradephoric on April 26, 2018, 03:50:10 PM
Consider Valverde del Fresno, Spain... the sun doesn't set till 10PM  during the summer solstice.  You can't find that late of a sunset in America along the same latitude... for example Lafayette, Indiana is on the extreme western edge of the Eastern Time Zone and has the same latitude as Valverde del Fresno....  the sun sets there at 9:20PM... a full 40 minutes earlier.

Madrid, Spain is west of Greenwich, England.  Spain should really share the same time as England.  It's just kind of funny to me that London is on Greenwich Mean Time, yet no other countries want to join them.  Even the UK abandons GMT in the summer during their Daylight Saving Time.  Short of a few countries in Africa and Iceland, no countries are on GMT permanently.

vdeane

I'd hardly call it "the rest of the world".  In North America, just about everything is somewhat close, with the exceptions of Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Cancún (which switched to permanent DST), most of Alaska, the Yukon, and part of the Northwest Territories.  Iceland and part of Greenland seem to be on permanent DST.  Most of South America is somewhat close, with the exceptions of Uruguay, Chile (two hours ahead of where they should be by longitude (!)), and Argentina.  Europe was just about perfect until World War II (when France and Spain switched to CET; Belarus has since switched to MSK for political reasons).  Most of south and east Asia are just about perfect sans China; ditto for Australia and New Zealand.  The Middle East is pretty good too.  Same for Africa with the exceptions of Libya, Namibia, and some countries in West Africa.

Russia is interesting because their time zones already seem to be one hour ahead for the most part; I didn't realize they were no longer on permanent DST.  That must have been like double DST!
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

tradephoric

Quote from: vdeane on April 26, 2018, 08:09:57 PM
Russia is interesting because their time zones already seem to be one hour ahead for the most part; I didn't realize they were no longer on permanent DST.  That must have been like double DST!

Yeah, it really was like double DST for Russia when it went to permanent DST in 2011.  During the winter solstice the sun rose at 10:51 AM and set at 6:01 PM in Novosibirsk (the 3rd most populous city in Russia).  Now that it's back to standard time, the sun rises at an early 9:51 AM  :-D

Edmonton, Alberta is about the same latitude as Novosibirsk, Russia.  Running standard time during the winter solstice, the sun rises in Edmonton at 8:48 AM and sets at 4:16 PM.  If permanent DST was enacted, Edmonton would pretty much have the same sunrise/sunset times as Novosibirsk (ie. North American permanent DST would mimic Russian Standard time).

english si

Quote from: tradephoric on April 26, 2018, 04:27:24 PMIt's just kind of funny to me that London is on Greenwich Mean Time, yet no other countries want to join them.  Even the UK abandons GMT in the summer during their Daylight Saving Time.  Short of a few countries in Africa and Iceland, no countries are on GMT permanently.
Portugal and Ireland are on GMT in winter, but - like the UK currently - have to do DST per EU regulations so, even if they wanted to (they don't), ditching DST won't happen. And Morocco makes 4. The 'few' (ie 12) African countries, Iceland and a couple of other places, have a higher population those 4 countries that use WET with DST (plus the Faeroes, Jersey, Guernsey, Man, Canary Islands that are on the same time).

Also, there are only 8 countries on the meridian. UK, France, Spain, Algeria, Mali, Burkina Faso, Togo, Ghana. The three European countries use DST (a majority don't) and three countries use CET (France, Spain, Algeria). So half the countries on the Meridian are on the base UTC+0 year round.

Spain and France have big movements to ditch Berlin Time - which was imposed on them by fascists (and in a very literal sense!). For Spain, it's very much a health and productivity issue - the whole country is sleep deprived and get nearly an hour less sleep than the EU average.

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: 1 on April 24, 2018, 12:36:31 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 12:32:24 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on April 24, 2018, 10:33:33 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.

Note that I said largest possible percentage.  If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, that would push a lot of summer sunrises before 6am.  The farther north you are, the larger the variance in your daylight times, and the smaller that 'largest possible percentage' becomes.
If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, this would result in the maximum number of days with sunrise between 6 AM and 7 AM. The closer it is to the solstice, the less difference from day to day.

I wonder if you could define no-time-change-based time-zones by turning it into an optimization problem, using two co-equal rules:

Minimize the amount of darkness (time before civil dawn) occurring after 6:30am throughout the year
Minimize the amount of daylight (time after sunrise) occurring before 5:30am throughout the year

...and then tweak as needed to recognize areas with economic connections, the perceived need to be on even-hour offsets from UTC, etc.

This is an intriguing enough problem that I might have to tackle it the next time I have a free weekend (like that'll ever happen...)

kalvado

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on April 27, 2018, 12:11:37 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 24, 2018, 12:36:31 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 12:32:24 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on April 24, 2018, 10:33:33 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.

Note that I said largest possible percentage.  If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, that would push a lot of summer sunrises before 6am.  The farther north you are, the larger the variance in your daylight times, and the smaller that 'largest possible percentage' becomes.
If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, this would result in the maximum number of days with sunrise between 6 AM and 7 AM. The closer it is to the solstice, the less difference from day to day.

I wonder if you could define no-time-change-based time-zones by turning it into an optimization problem, using two co-equal rules:

Minimize the amount of darkness (time before civil dawn) occurring after 6:30am throughout the year
Minimize the amount of daylight (time after sunrise) occurring before 5:30am throughout the year

...and then tweak as needed to recognize areas with economic connections, the perceived need to be on even-hour offsets from UTC, etc.

This is an intriguing enough problem that I might have to tackle it the next time I have a free weekend (like that'll ever happen...)
And maintaining 1 hour granularity?
THat is what placing area into it straight time zone would do. No big optimization required.

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2018, 12:30:55 PM
And maintaining 1 hour granularity?
THat is what placing area into it straight time zone would do. No big optimization required.

Let me re-frame the problem:

Question: What time zone should a particular place observe?

Criteria:

1. No DST (the reason threads like this get started every spring and fall).

2. Time zone must be expressed as a whole-hour difference from UTC, for simplicity.

3. Within those two constraints, the indicated local time zone shall be selected as to minimize the sum of:

a. Total time before civil dawn occurring after 6:30am through the year
b. Total time after sunrise occurring before 5:30am through the year

4. The selected time zone may deviate from the indicated time zone to keep economically linked areas (CMSAs? TV markets?) on the same time zone.


The result will still probably be 4-5 time zones for the continental US...but the borders will be a little different.

I don't actually know what it would look like on a map.  That's part of why I'd love to take a weekend, play with the data, and see what happens.

BTW, before someone asks:

-- the use of dawn and sunrise in 3a/3b is intentional.  I'm trying to hypothesize criteria that allow for some ability to accommodate differences in latitude.

-- I'm not wedded to those specific times.  Frankly, I personally don't care since my daily schedule is linked more to sunrise than the clock, but I'm trying to recognize the two big complaints that always come up in time zone/DST discussions:  "I don't like kids going to school / getting ready for work in the dark" and "I'd rather have daylight after normal work hours than before".  I'm open to suggestions for alternatives.

This kind of exercise could also be used to describe when an optimal change between standard and daylight saving time ought to occur...but I won't go there since the time changes annoy me. :)

I wish I weren't running late on something for work.  This would be a kind of cool/fun programming/mapping weekend project.

hbelkins

^^^

As long as your time zone boundaries keep my part of Kentucky in the easternmost time zone in the US, I'll be glad.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate Central time?  :bigass:


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