DST (2018)

[hbelkins]

I suspect most supporters of year-round DST haven't wholly thought through the implications of the change...

I can think of no negative implications, especially as it personally concerns me.

You must be able to wake up at or after 8:30 year round. Not all of us have that luxury.

As stated earlier, my wake-up times are generally geared to either my alarm or my bladder. If not for my alarm waking me considerably earlier than 8:30 on work days, I'd probably sleep until 11 or 12.

[kphoger]

While there are many jobs with fixed schedules like retail and factory many knowledge base jobs allow for flexible schedules.  Where I currently work, so long as you work core hours of 10 - 3, you can work any shift that gives you 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch.   So I can work any schedule from 6:30 - 3 to 10 - 6:30.

I don't think I know a single person who has a schedule like this.

(Actually, when I changed positions at work last year, I got to choose my hours.  But they had to be 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and I do not get to change them at my every whim.)

[20160805]

And once the time is set, then we can change the time of activities in our lives.  If the new time has dark mornings until 8:30 am, then make the schools start later.  In this day and age, we aren't tied in to specific times for most things.

We are for a lot of important things. Work schedules, for one. Good luck changing school hours, only to have the new hours conflict with parents' unchanged work schedules.

Daylight savings time effectively automatically changes all schedules, a lot easier than changing them one by one.

Especially since schools would have already changed thanks to research showing that teenagers are naturally night owls.  They don't because of concerns regarding activities and intersections with parent schedules.  Workplaces are also very resistant to changing their schedules.

I wasn't - 05:00-21:00 sleep schedule since grade school here!  (To be specific, I've been getting up well before 06:00 daily since third grade [2000], and I've been going to bed at 21:00 since I was 13 and fresh out of eighth grade [2006].)

I know this will get buried as my last post on page 19 was, but there is exactly zero benefit in having DST for my daily schedule.  I prefer waking up around or slightly before sunrise, and I prefer going to bed long after dusk; if I were to have the same sunrise and sunset times year-round, I'd pick 06:00-18:00.  (Besides, that would align clock noon perfectly with solar noon, though that's beside the point.)

Prolonged periods of daylight into the evening and late-night hours would have course be beneficial to night owls and many of those who don't need as much sleep, but for someone like me who gets up and goes to bed at the same, relatively early time each day, it would actually be better for me to be on standard time year-round.  Sunsets approaching 20:00 are already getting annoying during my late-evening "walk around the house listening to the radio" sessions, being that I feel some songs (such as Pat Benatar's "Love is a Battlefield" and Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers' "Don't Come Around Here No More") are best listened to at night, and also for the sole reason of the discrepancy created between the time on the clock and the shade of the sky around me.  My bedtime from early childhood to age 9-10 was 20:00, and it's still ingrained in my mind that that's late at night.

Granted, being in Wisconsin, the latitude itself kind of screws me over in terms of preferred sunrise and sunset times, but for my own selfish whims I'd rather they work in favour of my own schedule as opposed to the more evening-centric daily cycle on which society seems to run.

[vdeane]

While there are many jobs with fixed schedules like retail and factory many knowledge base jobs allow for flexible schedules.  Where I currently work, so long as you work core hours of 10 - 3, you can work any shift that gives you 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch.   So I can work any schedule from 6:30 - 3 to 10 - 6:30.  Many jobs allow you to work extra hours to allow for additional flexibility like alternate Fridays off and maybe telecommuting. 

Again the discussion amounts to adjusting time by an hour, not having people disrupt their schedule completely.

Wrt school, I don't see how any working adult can accommodate drop off and pick up on the same day.  If the school day is 8:30 - 3 and your commute is 30 minutes, you only have time for 5.5 hours of work.  You need to share the responsibility with a spouse or a neighbor.

And many office jobs don't.  On my internship, the company policy was 8-5 for the main shift, no exceptions.  And "8" meant 7:45, in order to allow people with different shifts to communicate in the office when needed.

At NYSDOT, one can choose their start time on half-hour increments between 7 and 9.  Compressed work weeks are available, though the rules were just tightened from what they had been, and the number of employees eligible to participate has been reduced.  Employers all over the place are rolling back options like telework and flex time.  The trend is clearly heading back to "sit at your desk and work these specified hours".

[english si]

I know this will get buried as my last post on page 19 was, but there is exactly zero benefit in having DST for my daily schedule.  I prefer waking up around or slightly before sunrise, and I prefer going to bed long after dusk; if I were to have the same sunrise and sunset times year-round, I'd pick 06:00-18:00.  (Besides, that would align clock noon perfectly with solar noon, though that's beside the point.)
<snip>
Granted, being in Wisconsin, the latitude itself kind of screws me over in terms of preferred sunrise and sunset times, but for my own selfish whims I'd rather they work in favour of my own schedule as opposed to the more evening-centric daily cycle on which society seems to run.

Move to Singapore! As it's right by the equator, it has minimal disturbance from 12 hour daylight for a major, well-off, city. Of course, this isn't a very practical solution, but nor are the others people are throwing at night owls...

As for evening-centric, while society wants us awake from around equinox sunrise to several hours after equinox sunset, DST is about shrinking the evening and lengthening the  bit before morning and there's a very vocal subset that wants that anti-evening setup to be permanent. Meanwhile to abolish DST the other way doesn't have a vocal movement - society doesn't want to lengthen the evening: the push for standard time comes about as a reaction to the push to make sunrises later in winter to make the day less evening centric.

Plus it's far easier to miss out on TV and parties because you want to go to bed early, than constantly have the threat of being fired because the expectation of waking up early and being in work while it's still not light.

[kalvado]

As this thread gies on, I get stronger and stronger impression that DST is primarily a way to address 1 hour time zones being too wide and introduce sort of a halfway zone. Then naturally those at one edge of time zone like it more than those on the other edge as DST us geared towards eastern portion of the zone.
Add "do not touch the clock" group (including me) into the mix, and it all starts adding up... Maybe introducing non-dst Western half zones and DST eastern half zones is what we need? Mess would be an inevitable byproduct, like it would be for any other change though.

[hotdogPi]

As this thread gies on, I get stronger and stronger impression that DST is primarily a way to address 1 hour time zones being too wide and introduce sort of a halfway zone. Then naturally those at one edge of time zone like it more than those on the other edge as DST us geared towards eastern portion of the zone.
Add "do not touch the clock" group (including me) into the mix, and it all starts adding up... Maybe introducing non-dst Western half zones and DST eastern half zones is what we need? Mess would be an inevitable byproduct, like it would be for any other change though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B00:20 (that's UTC+00:20, or UTC+00:19:32.13)

UTC-00:25:21, UTC+01:24, and UTC+04:51 were also used at various times in history.

[kalvado]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B00:20 (that's UTC+00:20, or UTC+00:19:32.13)

UTC-00:25:21, UTC+01:24, and UTC+04:51 were also used at various times in history.

Not really relevant. Of course when there was little sybc between different parts of the world, any tiwn could set it own time zone with little effect on anything. Railroad brought the need for country and region wide sync; and global air travel, phone and radio made it more global.
What was lost in process is ability to finely match clock settings to local features (longitude and latitude, but also probably climate and relief), and this thread is about getting that ability back in one way or the other

[MikeTheActuary]

About a week ago, I proposed one algorithm that could be used to assign areas to time zones:  awarding a score to whether it is daylight/twilight/nighttime at certain times of the day, awarding points based on that (with a bias towards mornings being of greater sensitivity than evenings), and then seeking to maximize the score throughout the year.

I had the chance to run that algorithm for the "key city" for every TV market in the continental U.S.

If I impose a requirement that every time zone be an even number of hours off from UTC (e.g. EDT=UTC-4, CDT=UTC-5...), I get a map that looks something like this.  (Done with Excel's internal mapping, which leaves a lot to be desired...)



(Most of the "missing" counties in CONUS are an artifact of Excel's limited mapping capabilities.  Eureka County, NV is still part of the Denver DMA.)

Some of the TZ boundaries implied are inconveniently located.  So I tried again, imposing an alternate requirement that every time zone be a "half off" from even deviations from UTC (e.g. UTC -4½, UTC -5½...), and got this result:



...which actually bears a passing resemblance to the original railroad time zone proposal.  The "half off" offsets also is consistent with the popular difference of opinion over whether we should go to "just standard time" or "just daylight saving time" if we were to do away with the time change.

[doorknob60]

Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

I agree. Though it sounds absurd to think that Ontario, OR could be in Central Standard Time.

For the record, I'm totally opposed to permanent DST here (though I think eliminating DST would work well in some more southern states, like Florida who is trying to do it). To me: Mountain Time with DST > Permanent MDT/CST > Permanent MST. I fear that if anything changes in Idaho, it would be a change to permanent MST which would suck IMO.

[US 89]

Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

I agree. Though it sounds absurd to think that Ontario, OR could be in Central Standard Time.

For the record, I'm totally opposed to permanent DST here (though I think eliminating DST would work well in some more southern states, like Florida who is trying to do it). To me: Mountain Time with DST > Permanent MDT/CST > Permanent MST. I fear that if anything changes in Idaho, it would be a change to permanent MST which would suck IMO.

Most of Idaho really belongs in the Pacific time zone. The ideal Mountain/Pacific line is 112.5 degrees west longitude, which is just west of Pocatello. Boise is more or less halfway between the ideal Mountain/Pacific line and Pacific time zone center (120 degrees west). So in a way, if Idaho abolished DST, southwest Idaho and eastern Oregon would essentially be on permanent DST. The current system is more like permanent DST in the winter and double DST in the summer.

[doorknob60]

Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

I agree. Though it sounds absurd to think that Ontario, OR could be in Central Standard Time.

For the record, I'm totally opposed to permanent DST here (though I think eliminating DST would work well in some more southern states, like Florida who is trying to do it). To me: Mountain Time with DST > Permanent MDT/CST > Permanent MST. I fear that if anything changes in Idaho, it would be a change to permanent MST which would suck IMO.

Most of Idaho really belongs in the Pacific time zone. The ideal Mountain/Pacific line is 112.5 degrees west longitude, which is just west of Pocatello. Boise is more or less halfway between the ideal Mountain/Pacific line and Pacific time zone center (120 degrees west). So in a way, if Idaho abolished DST, southwest Idaho and eastern Oregon would essentially be on permanent DST. The current system is more like permanent DST in the winter and double DST in the summer.

I know, and that's the way I like it. That's why I worry it might go away   But I think it works better for most people than the other options would. Visiting places like Las Vegas or Los Angeles that are similar longitude but in Pacific Time is always a downgrade for me.

[mrsman]

While there are many jobs with fixed schedules like retail and factory many knowledge base jobs allow for flexible schedules.  Where I currently work, so long as you work core hours of 10 - 3, you can work any shift that gives you 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch.   So I can work any schedule from 6:30 - 3 to 10 - 6:30.

I don't think I know a single person who has a schedule like this.

(Actually, when I changed positions at work last year, I got to choose my hours.  But they had to be 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and I do not get to change them at my every whim.)

And for purposes of our discussion regarding DST that flexibility as mentioned in your parentheses is sufficient.  If you currently work an 8-4:30 schedule and are allowed the choice (even if only once in your career) to adjust that even by 1 hour to 7-3:30 or 9-5:30, then you have enough flexibility to work around yearround DST.

If you currently work 8-4:30 in a place that changes time every season that's equivalent to working 9-5:30 during the winter months.  And if assuming your state becomes permanent DST or permanent standard time, you will then have the choice of keeping your summer schedule (but face dark mornings in the winter), keeping your winter schedule (but have less daylight after work in the summer), or splitting the difference by going 8:30-5.  As all the other activities in your life will also become fixed, you can then pick the schedule that works for you.

And as far as my workplace goes, while there is a lot of flexibility in choosing your time, once its set that is your time and you cannot change it randomly.  I am set at a 8-4:30 schedule*, but many co-workers are either on an earlier or a later shift and we know that.  If someone asks me "Where's John?" I can say he doesn't come in until 9:30.

* But if we go on permanent DST, I can put in a request to move the time more to my liking within the constrains mentioned in my previous post.

[HazMatt]

Chile comes off DST this weekend, unless the government decides to change it yet again.

[kphoger]

While there are many jobs with fixed schedules like retail and factory many knowledge base jobs allow for flexible schedules.  Where I currently work, so long as you work core hours of 10 - 3, you can work any shift that gives you 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch.   So I can work any schedule from 6:30 - 3 to 10 - 6:30.

I don't think I know a single person who has a schedule like this.

(Actually, when I changed positions at work last year, I got to choose my hours.  But they had to be 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and I do not get to change them at my every whim.)

And for purposes of our discussion regarding DST that flexibility as mentioned in your parentheses is sufficient.  If you currently work an 8-4:30 schedule and are allowed the choice (even if only once in your career) to adjust that even by 1 hour to 7-3:30 or 9-5:30, then you have enough flexibility to work around yearround DST.

If you currently work 8-4:30 in a place that changes time every season that's equivalent to working 9-5:30 during the winter months.  And if assuming your state becomes permanent DST or permanent standard time, you will then have the choice of keeping your summer schedule (but face dark mornings in the winter), keeping your winter schedule (but have less daylight after work in the summer), or splitting the difference by going 8:30-5.  As all the other activities in your life will also become fixed, you can then pick the schedule that works for you.

And as far as my workplace goes, while there is a lot of flexibility in choosing your time, once its set that is your time and you cannot change it randomly.  I am set at a 8-4:30 schedule*, but many co-workers are either on an earlier or a later shift and we know that.  If someone asks me "Where's John?" I can say he doesn't come in until 9:30.

* But if we go on permanent DST, I can put in a request to move the time more to my liking within the constrains mentioned in my previous post.

I work 7:30 AM to 4:00 PM.  That's what I chose, and that's what I have to stick with.  Similar to you, but with no carve-out for DST.

But it doesn't really mean anything to say I chose that schedule.  My wife's schedule doesn't depend on mine.  Church activities don't depend on my schedule.  My friends' schedules don't depend on mine.  Etc.

My wife's schedule, however, does depend on what a typical work schedule is for other people.  Therefore, she works from approximately 7:30 AM to 5:00 PM.  Because she and I are getting up between 6 and 7 AM, then, our children also get up around that time; therefore they go to bed between 8 and 9 PM.  It's annoying to have to try and get young children to go to bed when it's still light out.

[vdeane]

And for purposes of our discussion regarding DST that flexibility as mentioned in your parentheses is sufficient.  If you currently work an 8-4:30 schedule and are allowed the choice (even if only once in your career) to adjust that even by 1 hour to 7-3:30 or 9-5:30, then you have enough flexibility to work around yearround DST.

If you currently work 8-4:30 in a place that changes time every season that's equivalent to working 9-5:30 during the winter months.  And if assuming your state becomes permanent DST or permanent standard time, you will then have the choice of keeping your summer schedule (but face dark mornings in the winter), keeping your winter schedule (but have less daylight after work in the summer), or splitting the difference by going 8:30-5.  As all the other activities in your life will also become fixed, you can then pick the schedule that works for you.

And as far as my workplace goes, while there is a lot of flexibility in choosing your time, once its set that is your time and you cannot change it randomly.  I am set at a 8-4:30 schedule*, but many co-workers are either on an earlier or a later shift and we know that.  If someone asks me "Where's John?" I can say he doesn't come in until 9:30.

* But if we go on permanent DST, I can put in a request to move the time more to my liking within the constrains mentioned in my previous post.

I think it's safe to say that most employers that aren't going the whole hog with flex time will NOT allow people to change their schedule on the current DST dates (I know at NYSDOT at least, the trend is towards reducing the amount of flexibility employees have in setting their schedule, not increasing it).  Plus the rest of the world won't move, which could mean a person couldn't use that option even if they had it.  Leaving work an hour later to avoid waking up in darkness may sound like an awesome idea, but not if it means commuting home in peak rush hour, missing the news, having a harder time scheduling appointments or with family, etc.

[mrsman]

And for purposes of our discussion regarding DST that flexibility as mentioned in your parentheses is sufficient.  If you currently work an 8-4:30 schedule and are allowed the choice (even if only once in your career) to adjust that even by 1 hour to 7-3:30 or 9-5:30, then you have enough flexibility to work around yearround DST.

If you currently work 8-4:30 in a place that changes time every season that's equivalent to working 9-5:30 during the winter months.  And if assuming your state becomes permanent DST or permanent standard time, you will then have the choice of keeping your summer schedule (but face dark mornings in the winter), keeping your winter schedule (but have less daylight after work in the summer), or splitting the difference by going 8:30-5.  As all the other activities in your life will also become fixed, you can then pick the schedule that works for you.

And as far as my workplace goes, while there is a lot of flexibility in choosing your time, once its set that is your time and you cannot change it randomly.  I am set at a 8-4:30 schedule*, but many co-workers are either on an earlier or a later shift and we know that.  If someone asks me "Where's John?" I can say he doesn't come in until 9:30.

* But if we go on permanent DST, I can put in a request to move the time more to my liking within the constrains mentioned in my previous post.

I think it's safe to say that most employers that aren't going the whole hog with flex time will NOT allow people to change their schedule on the current DST dates (I know at NYSDOT at least, the trend is towards reducing the amount of flexibility employees have in setting their schedule, not increasing it).  Plus the rest of the world won't move, which could mean a person couldn't use that option even if they had it.  Leaving work an hour later to avoid waking up in darkness may sound like an awesome idea, but not if it means commuting home in peak rush hour, missing the news, having a harder time scheduling appointments or with family, etc.

The idea is that everyone probably has some part of their schedule that is fixed and then everything else can be moved around that.  For me it's an early morning religious service 6:30-7 that I attend before work.  Then I commute and I arrive at work at 8.  Work 8 hours + lunch until 4:30 and then commute home.  My work schedule was of my choosing and I chose the time that was convenient with the religious service.  [The religious service was chosen to be convenient to most people's work schedules, but obviously it doesn't work for everyone.]

I can safely say that if the religious service were moved 30 min earlier or 30 min later, I would probably adjust my work schedule accordingly.  But if the religious service moved really late such that I would have to start work after 9 am, I would probably regrettable forego attending the religious service and attend an after-work religious service instead.

And the idea isn't that I will change my schedule every 6 months - if permanent DST is imposed, I will probably stay on my current schedule and face some dark winter mornings.

And that's OK and probably more convenient then actually being forced to change my schedule every November and March by the govt.

[vdeane]

Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

[kkt]

Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

No you're not the only one.  Especially now, as almost half my clocks set themselves anyway.

[US 89]

Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

I prefer DST as well. A sunrise before 5am in the summer is ridiculous, especially since sunset would be at 8pm. But if we did permanent DST, then winter sunrise would be as late as 9am with a sunset of 6pm. With summer DST, winter daylight lasts from 8 to 5, and summer daylight lasts from 5 to 9, which is a much better arrangement overall.

EDIT: those times are for Salt Lake City. The time of daylight is going to vary significantly depending on latitude.

[Rothman]

I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.  Should be timed and adjusted to prevent that whiplash, if we are going to insist on keeping this antiquated notion.

[Road Hog]

I'll throw out there again my idea of a nationwide time zone for the 48 contiguous states ... GMT-6.5.

Neither coast will be off by more than 90 minutes.

[english si]

I prefer DST as well. A sunrise before 5am in the summer is ridiculous, especially since sunset would be at 8pm.

A sunrise before 5am isn't that absurd - I don't think I'm going to notice the difference in 12 days time when I have that, compared to now (this is on DST) at quarter past 5. Either way it's still really early, though it does mean that I'm well awake at 7am.

I'm not sure a 5am standard time sunrise necessarily means a 8pm standard time sunset. With my 4am standard time sunrises, I then get 8pm standard time sunsets. Which translates as 5am-9pm on summer time. 9pm sunsets are going to be better for parents with young kids than 4am sunrises as at least parents would like to be up at 9pm!

But if we did permanent DST, then winter sunrise would be as late as 9am with a sunset of 6pm.

Lucky - if sunrise here is moved to 9 (rather than just after 8) due to being on summer time mid-winter, sunset would be just before 5 (rather than just before 4).

[kalvado]

I prefer DST as well. A sunrise before 5am in the summer is ridiculous, especially since sunset would be at 8pm.

A sunrise before 5am isn't that absurd - I don't think I'm going to notice the difference in 12 days time when I have that, compared to now (this is on DST) at quarter past 5. Either way it's still really early, though it does mean that I'm well awake at 7am.

I'm not sure a 5am standard time sunrise necessarily means a 8pm standard time sunset. With my 4am standard time sunrises, I then get 8pm standard time sunsets. Which translates as 5am-9pm on summer time. 9pm sunsets are going to be better for parents with young kids than 4am sunrises as at least parents would like to be up at 9pm!

But if we did permanent DST, then winter sunrise would be as late as 9am with a sunset of 6pm.

Lucky - if sunrise here is moved to 9 (rather than just after 8) due to being on summer time mid-winter, sunset would be just before 5 (rather than just before 4).

What people don't realize is that sunrise-sunset times change with latitude quite a bit, and what is described as oh-so-absolutely intolerable by someone to the south could be a very good case scenario few hundred miles to the north. Now Europe is in general more northern than US, with London in particular being to the north of Winnipeg, and Glasgow - quite a bit to the north of Edmonton...

[jeffandnicole]

I prefer DST as well. A sunrise before 5am in the summer is ridiculous, especially since sunset would be at 8pm.

A sunrise before 5am isn't that absurd - I don't think I'm going to notice the difference in 12 days time when I have that, compared to now (this is on DST) at quarter past 5. Either way it's still really early, though it does mean that I'm well awake at 7am.

I'm not sure a 5am standard time sunrise necessarily means a 8pm standard time sunset. With my 4am standard time sunrises, I then get 8pm standard time sunsets. Which translates as 5am-9pm on summer time. 9pm sunsets are going to be better for parents with young kids than 4am sunrises as at least parents would like to be up at 9pm!

But if we did permanent DST, then winter sunrise would be as late as 9am with a sunset of 6pm.

Lucky - if sunrise here is moved to 9 (rather than just after 8) due to being on summer time mid-winter, sunset would be just before 5 (rather than just before 4).

What people don't realize is that sunrise-sunset times change with latitude quite a bit, and what is described as oh-so-absolutely intolerable by someone to the south could be a very good case scenario few hundred miles to the north. Now Europe is in general more northern than US, with London in particular being to the north of Winnipeg, and Glasgow - quite a bit to the north of Edmonton...

Then why change something that works in the South just to satisfy someone a *thousand miles away or more* to the north?

Seems like if someone can't deal with the sunlight variations, they should move to an area that works better for them.