DST (2018)

[webny99]

I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.

At our latitude, it literally only takes a few weeks to regain that hour. It certainly couldn't occur at a better time of year, and it makes for *more or less* ideal daylight usage in the summer and the winter. In the grand scheme of things, losing that hour is mildly annoying, but doesn't by any means outweigh the positive implications.

[kalvado]

Then why change something that works in the South just to satisfy someone a *thousand miles away or more* to the north?

Seems like if someone can't deal with the sunlight variations, they should move to an area that works better for them.

Is that an argument for, or against DST?  I can see it both ways.
Clock sync to 60 min increments is done in the interest of non-local commerce (remember railroads initiating all these?); so interests of those *thousand miles away or more* are in the game.
Now looks like most people don't mind individual states selecting their own time zone and DST rules (at least to some extent, multiple DST dates within same economic area would be a problem) without regards to preferences of other state which are *thousand miles away or more*.
And (personal opinion below) I don't quite buy those arguments about DST back-and-forth being oh-so-crucial as I do have some perspective from living further north where you wake up in a dark November to February, no matter DST or not; and you wake up in broad sunlight in summer - also regardless of DST or not. And I do think that 1-hour move is really uncomfortable. But this is just me.

[Rothman]

I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.

At our latitude, it literally only takes a few weeks to regain that hour. It certainly couldn't occur at a better time of year, and it makes for *more or less* ideal daylight usage in the summer and the winter. In the grand scheme of things, losing that hour is mildly annoying, but doesn't by any means outweigh the positive implications.

Those weeks are brutal and intolerable and not ideal.

[tradephoric]

I don't quite buy those arguments about DST back-and-forth being oh-so-crucial as I do have some perspective from living further north where you wake up in a dark November to February, no matter DST or not; and you wake up in broad sunlight in summer - also regardless of DST or not. And I do think that 1-hour move is really uncomfortable. But this is just me.

Bingo.  If you have a routine of getting up at 6:30AM every morning then you are probably already waking up in pitch darkness during the winter solstice.  Of the top 20 major metros in America, dawn begins before 6:30AM in only LA, Riverside, and San Diego (all southern cities).  Dawn doesn't begin before 6:30AM in any major northern city.  If you really need daylight to wake up, then you shouldn't live in a northern city during the winter.  Now a lack of daylight in the winter is offset with an abundance of daylight during the summer so you do got that to look forward to at least.

Nobody is going to be happy with the sunrise/sunset times in northern cities during the winter because there is so damn little daylight to begin with (not to mention it's brutally cold so you're probably already pretty miserable).  That's why the focus should be on what sunrise/sunset times makes people happy during the summer (and let the winter sunrise/sunsets just fall into place from there).

[vdeane]

So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks?  Many clocks are automatic or have some kind of DST switch these days, and digital clocks aren't that hard to set.  Unless everything's analog for you, I'm not sure what's so hard about it.  Of course, shifting my bedtime the night before to prepare (since I tend to stay up a couple hours later on Friday/Saturday than the rest of the week, and wake up 3-6 hours later, the shift isn't noticed because my weekend schedule is shifted by a huge amount anyways).

Regarding cold and whatnot, unlike the people down south (and many people up here too), I actually like the seasons.  I wouldn't want to live somewhere that was hot year round.  It would feel to weird.  That's not even getting to the fact that a warm winter probably means an unbearable summer.

I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.  Should be timed and adjusted to prevent that whiplash, if we are going to insist on keeping this antiquated notion.

That's why I'd go back to the way it was before Bush changed it.

[kalvado]

So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks?  Many clocks are automatic or have some kind of DST switch these days, and digital clocks aren't that hard to set.  Unless everything's analog for you, I'm not sure what's so hard about it.  Of course, shifting my bedtime the night before to prepare (since I tend to stay up a couple hours later on Friday/Saturday than the rest of the week, and wake up 3-6 hours later, the shift isn't noticed because my weekend schedule is shifted by a huge amount anyways).

Regarding cold and whatnot, unlike the people down south (and many people up here too), I actually like the seasons.  I wouldn't want to live somewhere that was hot year round.  It would feel to weird.  That's not even getting to the fact that a warm winter probably means an unbearable summer.

I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.  Should be timed and adjusted to prevent that whiplash, if we are going to insist on keeping this antiquated notion.

That's why I'd go back to the way it was before Bush changed it.

OK, lets look at it from the other side.
So just because someone cannot make themselves to observe simple schedule, we should have more people suffer like that just because some people are too lazy to behave? Unless you have unstructured job where you're doing something different and at different time every single day, it is fairly easy and natural to live on a 24-hour schedule. Unless everything's messy around you, I'm not sure what's so hard about it.

Of course, you don't put value in scheduling as your weekend schedule is shifted by a huge amount anyways. Shifting your bedtime the night before to prepare (since you tend to stay up a couple hours later on Friday/Saturday than the rest of the week, and wake up 3-6 hours later, the shift isn't noticed) - but don't enforce that slap in the face on others who try (or have to) live more organized and healthier life.


I tried to be symmetric here..

[vdeane]

It's not laziness.  I've had problems with insomnia and waking up for as long as I've been alive.  I suspect it's delayed sleep phase syndrome.  On the few occasions I've pulled all-nighters, I've noticed that I actually function fairly well on a 36 hour day.

It doesn't help that my work is contrary to my circadian rhythm.  It's much easier to keep a schedule when it matches your natural rhythm than when it doesn't.

My Asperger's Syndrome may also contribute.  My sense to time is all screwed up, so I'm reliant on clocks to tell me what time it is no matter how long ago the last time change was.

[tradephoric]

So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks? 

People living above the 40th parallel (northern states) are going to be miserable during the winter no matter what the dawn/dusk times are.  It's apparent you value more sun in the morning to function, but then you are ignoring those who get depressed when the sun sets so early during the winter.  The people who want later sunrises are ignoring people like you who want more sunlight in the morning to function.  Ultimately, someone is going to get shafted.

People living below the 35th parallel (southern states) aren't so miserable in the winter because they get a little more sunlight throughout the day and the weather can be quite pleasant.   So why not pick dawn/dusk times in the winter that works best for the southern states?  It just so happens Florida is the state pushing hardest for permanent DST.  In addition, Arizona has already decided that year-round standard time works best for them.  So, we are left with California, Texas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina.  What do these states want?  I imagine most of these states would favor year-round DST as it would likely inject more winter tourism dollars into their economies.  More sunlight into the evenings means more money spent by those northern tourists.  And are those northern tourists who usually get up at 6AM for work still getting up at 6AM while they are on their week-long winter vacation in Florida?  Potentially, these "morning people"  would transform into "night owls"  during their week-long vacation and would benefit from the later sunsets while they are on the beach.

[jp the roadgeek]

I'll throw out there again my idea of a nationwide time zone for the 48 contiguous states ... GMT-6.5.

Neither coast will be off by more than 90 minutes.

That would mean for me in CT that on June 21st the sun would rise at 2:45 AM and set at 6:00 PM, and on December 21st the sun would rise at 5:49 AM and set at 2:50 PM.  No way that would fly.

[kalvado]

I'll throw out there again my idea of a nationwide time zone for the 48 contiguous states ... GMT-6.5.

Neither coast will be off by more than 90 minutes.

That would mean for me in CT that on June 21st the sun would rise at 2:45 AM and set at 6:00 PM, and on December 21st the sun would rise at 5:49 AM and set at 2:50 PM.  No way that would fly.

It would work beautifully if your working day is adjusted to 6.30-3.00 or so, and school starts at 6.00

[hbelkins]

There is unrest in the forest, there is trouble with the trees, for the maples want more sunlight and the oaks ignore their pleas.

[vdeane]

So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks? 

People living above the 40th parallel (northern states) are going to be miserable during the winter no matter what the dawn/dusk times are.  It's apparent you value more sun in the morning to function, but then you are ignoring those who get depressed when the sun sets so early during the winter.  The people who want later sunrises are ignoring people like you who want more sunlight in the morning to function.  Ultimately, someone is going to get shafted.

People living below the 35th parallel (southern states) aren't so miserable in the winter because they get a little more sunlight throughout the day and the weather can be quite pleasant.   So why not pick dawn/dusk times in the winter that works best for the southern states?  It just so happens Florida is the state pushing hardest for permanent DST.  In addition, Arizona has already decided that year-round standard time works best for them.  So, we are left with California, Texas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina.  What do these states want?  I imagine most of these states would favor year-round DST as it would likely inject more winter tourism dollars into their economies.  More sunlight into the evenings means more money spent by those northern tourists.  And are those northern tourists who usually get up at 6AM for work still getting up at 6AM while they are on their week-long winter vacation in Florida?  Potentially, these "morning people"  would transform into "night owls"  during their week-long vacation and would benefit from the later sunsets while they are on the beach.

I'm pretty sure it was pointed out that seasonal affective disorder is more about TOTAL amount of sunlight, rather than amount after work.  In any case, that might be a good reason why offices need windows.  I certainly find being in a glorified artificial cave depressing.

Tourism is certainly a reason that I have to fear permanent DST that I don't think about enough.  Tourist traffic on I-87 is unbearable in the summer.  Would this cause similar traffic in the winter as well?

As for favoring southern states, I have two words for that, which I will not write down here.  Let's just say that I already believe that the south is favored too much and leave it at that.

[Scott5114]

Instead of moving our clocks twice a year, move the Earth to a binary star system. Twice the suns = twice the amount of daylight. Now that's how you save daylight.

[kalvado]

Instead of moving our clocks twice a year, move the Earth to a binary star system. Twice the suns = twice the amount of daylight. Now that's how you save daylight.

No chance to get support for that from current administration. But converting moon to a smaller star may get some traction.

[english si]

People living above the 40th parallel (northern states) are going to be miserable during the winter no matter what the dawn/dusk times are.

Very true (from above the 50th) - though at least here I get summer happy, which I'm not sure I would living long term somewhere further south where the sunrise is post-6am in summer (with DST). The winter isn't that bad as then everyone is tired and semi-hibernating - the worst bit is actually the fall due to changing clocks back too late - and unlike Miami, etc I get later sunrises and earlier sunsets in Dec/Jan than just before the clocks go back.

I don't have much of a problem with Floridians effectively working much earlier relative to solar noon (or the general US trend for that compared to the UK) - I'm not in Florida, and if I was, I'd be on vacation anyway. I will point out that post-8am sunrises are very depressing and they won't like them, even if it means they get half an hours' worth of light after work those winter days, rather than none.

I'm pretty sure it was pointed out that seasonal affective disorder is more about TOTAL amount of sunlight, rather than amount after work.

If any end of the day matters more for SAD, it's the morning.

Certainly sleep-related conditions are worse at the west edges of time zones than the east, suggesting a lack of evening light isn't bad for the body/brain.

[20160805]

Apparently nobody else ever likes darkness or has trouble sleeping when it's still light out past bedtime.  You guys talk about my 16:15 December sunsets like they're the devil or something.

I'd like to wake up just before dawn and go to bed well after dusk; 06:00-18:00 daylight hours are just plain optimized to my personal preferences.  And when we worry about night owls not having enough light after work (which contradicts the point of being a night owl, doesn't it?, as they'd now be known as "morning owls"), we ignore the fact that there are some people who don't want to be forced to stay awake until 22:30.  And if I stay awake until 22:30, I get only about six hours of sleep, causing me to be cranky and lethargic the next day, and if this is a year-round thing, I'd probably get fired.

[jeffandnicole]

So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks? 

People living above the 40th parallel (northern states) are going to be miserable during the winter no matter what the dawn/dusk times are.  It's apparent you value more sun in the morning to function, but then you are ignoring those who get depressed when the sun sets so early during the winter.  The people who want later sunrises are ignoring people like you who want more sunlight in the morning to function.  Ultimately, someone is going to get shafted.

People living below the 35th parallel (southern states) aren't so miserable in the winter because they get a little more sunlight throughout the day and the weather can be quite pleasant.   So why not pick dawn/dusk times in the winter that works best for the southern states?  It just so happens Florida is the state pushing hardest for permanent DST.  In addition, Arizona has already decided that year-round standard time works best for them.  So, we are left with California, Texas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina.  What do these states want?  I imagine most of these states would favor year-round DST as it would likely inject more winter tourism dollars into their economies.  More sunlight into the evenings means more money spent by those northern tourists.  And are those northern tourists who usually get up at 6AM for work still getting up at 6AM while they are on their week-long winter vacation in Florida?  Potentially, these "morning people"  would transform into "night owls"  during their week-long vacation and would benefit from the later sunsets while they are on the beach.

I'm pretty sure it was pointed out that seasonal affective disorder is more about TOTAL amount of sunlight, rather than amount after work.  In any case, that might be a good reason why offices need windows.  I certainly find being in a glorified artificial cave depressing.

Tourism is certainly a reason that I have to fear permanent DST that I don't think about enough.  Tourist traffic on I-87 is unbearable in the summer.  Would this cause similar traffic in the winter as well?

As for favoring southern states, I have two words for that, which I will not write down here.  Let's just say that I already believe that the south is favored too much and leave it at that.

Actually, depending on the person, it's been mentioned several times they just wanted later daylight.

I doubt tourism would go up much because of winter and school schedules, and if tourism were to go up, it would be going up all over the northern climates and not limited to any one particular area.

[kalvado]

I doubt tourism would go up much because of winter and school schedules, and if tourism were to go up, it would be going up all over the northern climates and not limited to any one particular area.

I would think that for Northway - 3 hours drive from anywhere else - tourist needs at least a full day - more like several days - to do anything meaningful; and shift of DST/solar time would affect hours of skiing resorts operation (they do need sunlight), and when people are going to/from there within a day - but not a total headcount.

[oscar]

post-8am sunrises are very depressing

Worse still are sunrises just before lunchtime, like in Fairbanks AK around the winter solstice.

But DST is useless in Alaska due to the extreme variations in daylight, so thought has been given to abandoning DST there (preferring to synch with non-DST Asian trading partners than with the rest of North America).

[kkt]

post-8am sunrises are very depressing

Worse still are sunrises just before lunchtime, like in Fairbanks AK around the winter solstice.

But DST is useless in Alaska due to the extreme variations in daylight, so thought has been given to abandoning DST there (preferring to synch with non-DST Asian trading partners than with the rest of North America).

Agree that DST is useless in the main part of Alaska.  But they decided to put the whole state in one time zone, and DST is useful in the panhandle.  Also there's a whole lot more trade and travel to the Lower 48 than there is to the Asian trading partners.

[vdeane]

I doubt tourism would go up much because of winter and school schedules, and if tourism were to go up, it would be going up all over the northern climates and not limited to any one particular area.

I would think that for Northway - 3 hours drive from anywhere else - tourist needs at least a full day - more like several days - to do anything meaningful; and shift of DST/solar time would affect hours of skiing resorts operation (they do need sunlight), and when people are going to/from there within a day - but not a total headcount.

While volume heading up to the Adirondacks is certainly a major factor in non-commuting congestion (especially since the Northway is essentially a funnel for traffic from Boston, Syracuse, Binghamton, and NYC), shopping traffic can be an issue too.  The biggest causes of congesion on my commute (especially since I'm south of the Twin Bridges) are the merges onto I-87 from Wolf Road and, if busy enough to back up to exit 5 (or stuck behind someone who travels slowly in the exit only lane because people in the general purpose lanes are, either because they're cautious, obsessed about not passing on the right, or cutting through the lane with intent to "merge" just before exit 6), also NY 7/NY 2 and the NY 7 freeway.

Apparently nobody else ever likes darkness or has trouble sleeping when it's still light out past bedtime.  You guys talk about my 16:15 December sunsets like they're the devil or something.

I'd like to wake up just before dawn and go to bed well after dusk; 06:00-18:00 daylight hours are just plain optimized to my personal preferences.  And when we worry about night owls not having enough light after work (which contradicts the point of being a night owl, doesn't it?, as they'd now be known as "morning owls"), we ignore the fact that there are some people who don't want to be forced to stay awake until 22:30.  And if I stay awake until 22:30, I get only about six hours of sleep, causing me to be cranky and lethargic the next day, and if this is a year-round thing, I'd probably get fired.

It doesn't really happen where I'm from (latest sunset in Albany is 8:36), but yes, that would be an issue for me if it did, especially since my bedroom gets the evening sun.  I don't know how people in more northern places do it.  I've even been known to put blankets on my face at night just to block out the light from the LEDs that illuminate the grounds outside my apartment sometimes.

[kphoger]

Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

But having to drag myself out of bed in pitch darkness is why I'm against changing the clocks.

If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

Every year, just when I'm starting to enjoy it being a little bit light outside when my alarm goes off, that happiness gets yanked out from under me, precisely because DST makes us change our clocks.

DST doesn't even enter into it in the middle of winter, which is when the windshield ice is thick enough to even matter.  Because that's not when DST is.

[kkt]

Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

But having to drag myself out of bed in pitch darkness is why I'm against changing the clocks.

If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

Every year, just when I'm starting to enjoy it being a little bit light outside when my alarm goes off, that happiness gets yanked out from under me, precisely because DST makes us change our clocks.

DST doesn't even enter into it in the middle of winter, which is when the windshield ice is thick enough to even matter.  Because that's not when DST is.

That's a problem with the extension of the time DST is observed that started in 2007, not with the concept of DST in general.

[tradephoric]

I doubt tourism would go up much because of winter and school schedules, and if tourism were to go up, it would be going up all over the northern climates and not limited to any one particular area.

I don't think a northern state like Michigan has the same level of winter tourism as Florida.  Florida had nearly 120 million visitors last year, and winter tourism plays a pivotal role in Florida's economy.  I believe Florida legislator passed the Sunshine Protection Act largely due to the fact that they believe later sunsets in the winter would pump more money into their economy.  A JP Morgan Chase November 2016 study found:

Our analysis finds the policy is associated with a 0.9 percent increase in daily card spending per capita in Los Angeles at the beginning of DST and a reduction in daily card spending per capita of 3.5 percent at the end of DST. The increase in spending at the beginning of DST is determined by comparing daily card spending per capita in the 30 days before DST starts, to daily card spending per capita in the 30 days after DST starts. The decrease at the end captures a similar window to compare spending in the 30 days before and after the end of DST. Most of the impact stems from responses at the end of DST, when spending on goods drops more than spending on services, and spending during the work week drops more than weekend spending. The magnitude of the spending reductions outweighs increased spending at the beginning of DST.

Once DST begins, there is an increase in purchases, and once DST ends the purchases decline.  The theory is that once DST ends, it may affect people's decision to patronize a merchant when it's already dark out after work.  The same concept can be applied to tourists.  Once it gets dark out, this may affect tourist's decision to patronize a merchant...

There are large differences in spending changes across days of the week. Increases in card spending at the beginning of DST are virtually the same for weekdays and weekends in Los Angeles. However, spending during the work week declined significantly more than spending during the weekend at the end of DST. This finding is consistent with the idea that consumers with jobs may have limited time to shop during the work week. If daylight affects the decision to patronize a merchant, we would expect that losing an hour of daylight would have a larger effect when there are fewer hours available. Conversely, since most consumers do not work on the weekends, they have the freedom to engage in commerce over a far greater range of times on Saturdays and Sundays.

[kphoger]

Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

But having to drag myself out of bed in pitch darkness is why I'm against changing the clocks.

If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

Every year, just when I'm starting to enjoy it being a little bit light outside when my alarm goes off, that happiness gets yanked out from under me, precisely because DST makes us change our clocks.

DST doesn't even enter into it in the middle of winter, which is when the windshield ice is thick enough to even matter.  Because that's not when DST is.

That's a problem with the extension of the time DST is observed that started in 2007, not with the concept of DST in general.

Depending on what time you wake up, that is...