News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

Started by mtantillo, August 14, 2012, 11:02:35 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mapmikey

Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 01, 2013, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2013, 10:29:46 AM
I don't knock WTOP for running this story, but it is remarkable that some people don't understand the idea behind pricing for a congestion-free trip.

Transurban: Express Lanes price depends on traffic

I see what they are getting at. One would assume the express lanes would be at the "base" price at all times during the off peak hours. The price seems to be creeping up despite the lanes being empty. When I drove them back in December, the full length was a $1.85 toll, vs. the $1.65 it was when they opened...... but the HOT lanes were completely empty and the mainline beltway was flying at 75mph with zero delays.

Today at 5:35 a.m. the HOT lanes had fewer than 10 cars observed in the entire 14 miles plus the mainline beltway was wide open.

The full length toll was $2.05.

Mapmikey


cpzilliacus

Quote from: Mapmikey on February 04, 2013, 06:34:06 AM
Today at 5:35 a.m. the HOT lanes had fewer than 10 cars observed in the entire 14 miles plus the mainline beltway was wide open.

The full length toll was $2.05.

That seems high (IMO). 

I drove it at that time of the morning on a weekday not long after opening, and the toll was less than $2 ($1.65, I think).

Wondering if the owners are trying to increase revenue - that is not likely to work, at least not when the four conventional lanes are uncongested.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

I expect that because the lanes have been open for less than three months they are still tweaking the toll rates and trying to see what will be reasonable versus what will be too high.

There are some trips for which the new lanes simply make more sense, such as going to the mall at Tysons or exiting at Lee Highway, and the amount of the toll is less of a consideration. Of course, I also recognize that there are a lot of people out there who do not view it the same way I do.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

TOLLROADSnews: VA 495 Express Lanes traffic "below expectations, adjustments needed" operator tells shareholders

QuoteTransurban, principal shareholder and operator of the 495 toll express lanes on the Capital Beltway has told shareholders in Melbourne Australia that initial traffic is below expectations and that adjustment to traffic patterns and motorist preferences will be required. In the 6-week period to the end of 2012 they report revenues of $1.0 million ($800k tolls, $200k other revenues), operating costs of $3.2m, depreciation of $2.1m, and financing costs of $7m for a net loss of $11.3m.

QuoteTransurban and its partner US-based Kiewit spent $1.53 billion on reconstruction to create 2x2 toll express lanes on 12 miles of the Capital Beltway between the Springfield Interchange and Tysons Corner that involved rebuilding interchanges and the free lanes. The toll lanes only opened November 17, so it is early days.

QuoteAfter six weeks operation they said in a  report here January 11 that they were getting about 24,000 vehicles workdays up 60% from the initial 15,000 and that 93% were tollpayers and 7% carpoolers entitled to free trips. Revenue was running at an annual rate of $7m we estimated. ($s are Australian dollars similar in value to US$s.)

QuoteA traffic and revenue study by Vollmer/Stantec finalized in February 2007 when the companies were committing to finance the project forecast average weekday trips over the first full year of operations at 66,132 and revenue of $46.1m.  After four years operations they forecast 117k/weekday trips and annual revenue of $79m.

QuoteThe forecasts couldn't have foreseen the depth of the financial crisis of later 2007 and 2008 or the length of the recession that resulted. And perhaps they have underestimated a dampener on peakhours' traffic from the internet and greater worktime flexibility.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

It appears that $2.05 is the "new standard".  Hopped on with a friend late last night...though we exited early, the overheads were saying $2.05 for the full trip.

mc78andrew

Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 17, 2013, 12:27:57 AM
WTOP Radio: Drivers receive fines for cheating tolls on the Beltway Express Lanes

At $2.05 you would have to get away with this 25 times to cover the first offense assuming you are traveling the whole distance.  There are about 20-23 working days in a month.  Not sure this is worth the risk IMO. 

cpzilliacus

Washington Post: 495 Express Lanes driver finds Tysons a tricky target

QuoteI am generally a fan of E-ZPass, but ran into a major issue with the new E-ZPass express lanes in Northern Virginia. Aside from the fact that not all the Capital Beltway exits are available to the E-ZPass drivers, coming from the Maryland side, there is no sign indicating the exit to take for Tysons Corner.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

In Georgia, at least one reporter, the "Gridlock Guy" that writes for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, reports that the I-85 HOT Express Lanes are working.   Now those lanes are much more "mature" than the priced lanes on I-495, but his perspective is interesting.

See this in the Southeast forum.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

mtantillo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 08, 2013, 09:48:44 AM
In Georgia, at least one reporter, the "Gridlock Guy" that writes for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, reports that the I-85 HOT Express Lanes are working.   Now those lanes are much more "mature" than the priced lanes on I-495, but his perspective is interesting.

See this in the Southeast forum.

Ah, but there is a key difference between ATL's and NOVA's lanes.  In ATL, the lanes were underutilized, and the operator dropped the price to a rock bottom 1 cent/mile when the lanes were empty. This attracts users. In NOVA, despite statements that the price fluctuates with demand and will drop when usage is low, there seems to be an artificial "floor" in place that won't let the price drop below $2.05 for the whole length. This seems rather odd to discourage use when demand is low. After all 50 cents is better than zero cents!  But when using only usage numbers to determine success, then of course ATL's will seem more successful.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: mtantillo on March 08, 2013, 09:10:58 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 08, 2013, 09:48:44 AM
In Georgia, at least one reporter, the "Gridlock Guy" that writes for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, reports that the I-85 HOT Express Lanes are working.   Now those lanes are much more "mature" than the priced lanes on I-495, but his perspective is interesting.

See this in the Southeast forum.

Ah, but there is a key difference between ATL's and NOVA's lanes.  In ATL, the lanes were underutilized, and the operator dropped the price to a rock bottom 1 cent/mile when the lanes were empty. This attracts users. In NOVA, despite statements that the price fluctuates with demand and will drop when usage is low, there seems to be an artificial "floor" in place that won't let the price drop below $2.05 for the whole length. This seems rather odd to discourage use when demand is low. After all 50 cents is better than zero cents!  But when using only usage numbers to determine success, then of course ATL's will seem more successful.

I saw it less than that one day this past week when I was on my  way to work at about 0400.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

WTOP Radio: Two new express bus routes to Tysons start Monday

QuoteThe new express routes are Route 493 from Lorton VRE Station and Saratoga Park and Ride to Tysons, and Route 494 from Franconia-Springfield Metro Station and greater Springfield to Tysons.

QuoteBoth routes will take advantage of the Beltway Express Lanes, similar to the Burke to Tysons route that began in January 2013.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

WTOP Radio: No tolls on the Beltway Express Lanes this weekend

QuoteDrivers will get a chance to use the Beltway Express Lanes for free this April 5 and April 6, a move the lanes' operating company hopes will allow drivers to become more familiar with the new byways.

Quote"You won't need an E-ZPass for just this weekend, and if you do have an E-ZPass, you won't be charged," says Pierce Coffee, spokesman for Transurban, which operates the lanes.

Quote"We'll let you get that test drive when you're not running late to work or going to a meeting. Try the 495 Express Lanes, figure out, for example, if the Westpark Drive is best for you or Jones Park Drive in Tysons is helpful."

QuoteCoffee says the free trip on this Saturday and Sunday is unrelated to January numbers, which showed ridership below expectations, losing $11.3 million in the first six weeks of operation.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 01, 2013, 08:31:38 AM
QuoteCoffee says the free trip on this Saturday and Sunday is unrelated to January numbers, which showed ridership below expectations, losing $11.3 million in the first six weeks of operation.

Right.  Because a free weekend 4 months after the lanes opened is normal. 

Really, they should be doing this on a few weekdays.  Many people that would benefit from the tolled lanes aren't going to make a special trip to the office just to test them out.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 01, 2013, 09:34:31 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 01, 2013, 08:31:38 AM
QuoteCoffee says the free trip on this Saturday and Sunday is unrelated to January numbers, which showed ridership below expectations, losing $11.3 million in the first six weeks of operation.

Right.  Because a free weekend 4 months after the lanes opened is normal.

Though traffic does pick up (at least in the D.C. area) when the weather warms up.  And we have just come through a very cold March.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 01, 2013, 09:34:31 AM
Really, they should be doing this on a few weekdays.  Many people that would benefit from the tolled lanes aren't going to make a special trip to the office just to test them out.

You may be right.  I also think that some drivers who might be tempted to use the lanes don't because they don't have an E-ZPass transponder.  Allowing (or even encouraging) toll-by-plate (without the punitive administrative charge, as MdTA is doing on Md. 200) is something the operators of those lanes should consider.  I am not  sure what the E-ZPass penetration rate is around the D.C. area - it's nowhere close to 100%.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

vdeane

Coming up with a HOV solution other than flex would help too.  Those of us with non-local transponders get charged even if we meet the HOV criteria.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2013, 11:20:56 AM
Coming up with a HOV solution other than flex would help too.  Those of us with non-local transponders get charged even if we meet the HOV criteria.

I have actually thought about that - a lot - because monitoring performance of the HOV lanes is part of my job.  Because VDOT has to pay the owners of the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes if there are more than a certain number of HOV-3 vehicles, the E-ZPass Flex transponder was probably the best way to do it. 

The HOV/Toll lanes along Ca. 91 (Riverside Freeway) in Orange County and along I-15 (Escondido Freeway) in San Diego County have "declaration" lanes for HOVs.  But there are not nearly as many access and egress points along those (the Ca. 91 facility is a "one way in" and "one way out" operation, though extensions have been discussed) as there are along the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes, and in most places, there was no room to add one of those "declaration" lanes.

The E-ZPass Flex approach also makes it relatively easy for the Virginia State Police to enforce the HOV-3 requirement.  All they have to do is look at the light over the lane at a gantry.  It flashes red for a vehicle with a transponder in HOV mode, which makes it easy for the trooper to check that vehicle's occupancy.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

vdeane

Since the trooper can check occupancy, couldn't a camera?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

mtantillo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 01, 2013, 11:37:45 AM
Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2013, 11:20:56 AM
Coming up with a HOV solution other than flex would help too.  Those of us with non-local transponders get charged even if we meet the HOV criteria.

I have actually thought about that - a lot - because monitoring performance of the HOV lanes is part of my job.  Because VDOT has to pay the owners of the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes if there are more than a certain number of HOV-3 vehicles, the E-ZPass Flex transponder was probably the best way to do it. 

The HOV/Toll lanes along Ca. 91 (Riverside Freeway) in Orange County and along I-15 (Escondido Freeway) in San Diego County have "declaration" lanes for HOVs.  But there are not nearly as many access and egress points along those (the Ca. 91 facility is a "one way in" and "one way out" operation, though extensions have been discussed) as there are along the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes, and in most places, there was no room to add one of those "declaration" lanes.

The E-ZPass Flex approach also makes it relatively easy for the Virginia State Police to enforce the HOV-3 requirement.  All they have to do is look at the light over the lane at a gantry.  It flashes red for a vehicle with a transponder in HOV mode, which makes it easy for the trooper to check that vehicle's occupancy.

According to the theory of "commuter discounts/plans should be available to all with an E-ZPass", the "HOV commuter plan" (which you can sign up for by purchasing a Flex transponder) seems to fall into a slightly separate category of transponder discrimination.  vdeane brings up a good point. 

My guess is that Transurban is not exactly too upset about someone from New York on a family vacation to Virginia having to pay the toll despite having a minivan full of kiddies...more money for them.  It is also easier for them to enforce the HOV rules.  If you have a "put up an E-ZPass if you have 1 or two people, 'bag the tag' if you have 3+" rule, then someone could hide their E-ZPass (human flesh acts as a good enough shield...if you sit on the tag it won't read) when there is no police officer at the gantry, and pop the tag up quickly if there is an officer, in effect, only paying for segments where there is an officer present.  With the Flex rule, once you pass a gantry, the fact that you entered with the tag in HOV mode is "locked in" (along with your toll rate).  So if you pass 4 gantries with no officer, and then you see an officer at the 5th gantry, if you flip the switch to non-HOV mode, my understanding is that the light will still flash and you will still get pulled over, and then be forced to pay for all of the gantries you skipped.  And as cpz mentioned, it is easier for Transurban and VDOT to keep track of carpoolers in case the carpool threshold exceeds that where VDOT would be required to pay Transurban for a toll.

I actually read an article about this recently (can't remember where though).  The article was discussing two types of HOT lanes, and two types of carpools.  I bet cpz has some comments about this topic. 

The first type of HOT lane is an underutilized HOV lane that is converted to allow toll paying SOV traffic.  These lanes typically have very low capital costs since the infrastructure is already there and paid for, only the toll collection infrastructure is needed to convert to HOT.  In these lanes, the priority is generally given to HOV traffic (the original intended users), and "excess space is sold".  This is money that a government or HOT lane owner would otherwise not get for very little extra investment, so these lanes often have high percentages of those who do not pay tolls, not too much in terms of income, but high profitability since they have few expenses to pay.  The toll rates can be dropped to rock bottom rates when the lanes are empty. 

The other kind of HOT lane is similar to the ones on I-495, new lanes constructed to be HOT lanes.  These have much higher costs because it involves new construction.  Therefore, the operators are much more interested in recovering high construction costs.  So, these shouldn't be thought of as "HOV lanes with excess capacity sold", but more "toll lanes that allow HOV's meeting very specific requirements in for free).  In otherwords, they want most vehicles to pay tolls.  They need to make money.  They have an incentive to make it difficult to claim the carpool exemption.  They also typically have higher toll rates, because they need to maximize revenue, even if the traffic carrying utility of these lanes is low.  They would rather make big bucks off a small number of users, hoping to entice more users into the empty lanes, rather than fill the lanes up at a low toll rate and risk not maximizing their revenue. 

Then we get to the two kinds of carpools.  Work-based carpools: co-workers ridesharing from home to the office, where some co-workers would otherwise be driving alone.  These carpools actually remove vehicles from the road.  "Fampools": carpools comprised of family members traveling together that would otherwise travel together anyway, and can include infants and other non-licensed drivers.  These carpools do not remove vehicles from the road, yet are entitled to the same benefits as co-worker based carpools.  When a typical HOV lane is involved, it might not seem fair that fampools have access to the HOV lanes, but since many HOV lanes are underutilized (not necessarily in DC area, but throughout the country), this at least gives the illusion that they are more useful in carrying people/removing cars from the road than they really are.  No harm, no foul, any car in the HOV lane is one less car in the other lanes.  But when HOT lanes get involved...these fampools translate into revenue loss for the operators of the lanes.  All of a sudden, you find a war against casual carpooling and fampools because the operators of these lanes feel that discounts/free passage should be given to only a few, and priority for that should be given to those who actually remove other cars from the road. 

The author of this paper was actually advocating for a system similar to what is used on I-95 in Florida, where only registered carpools can obtain free passage.  Everyone else pays a toll.  In order to register, each member of the carpool must be a licensed driver (in Florida), and provide their license, registration, home and work address (to show that it is reasonable that the lanes would be used by 3+ for the purpose of going to work).  Each driver has the ability to use their car for the carpool, but audits are performed both on the road and electronically to ensure that abuse is not occurring...the enforcement is done by shielding the transponder, using an HOV sticker, and the toll system will capture the license plate number which is on a "white list" so that no violations are issued if no ETC transponder is present.  On the road- does the vehicle that did not pay the toll have a carpool sticker and 3 people inside?  Electronically- did all of the three vehicles in the carpool use the lanes toll free on the same morning multiple times, or something similar that could indicate the lanes are not being used by the registered occupants for a trip to/from work? 

So Florida has made it next to impossible for casual carpools and fampools to gain free access...and I'm sure FDOT is okay with this, because that means more revenue for them. 

Los Angeles and DC have taken an intermediate approach.  They won't require registration with tight requirements, but they won't let everyone use the lanes for free just by virtue of not having an active transponder (or a bagged/shielded transponder)...they will make you do just enough upfront work, and will make it more costly than obtaining a regular transponder (in Virginia, it is an extra 50 cents per month for a Flex, in Maryland the one time fee is $18, instead of $9 for a regular transponder), so as to discourage as many people as possible.  Of course, they won't advertise to anyone outside the DC area about the E-ZPass Flex option, but by golly, they will ensure that you know anyone with an E-ZPass, even one from far away, can enter the lanes if they wish to pay!

So I would expect more of these schemes to make claiming the HOV exemption more difficult in the future as HOT lanes spread, and toll operators seek to minimize "fampools" taking advantage of these discounts. 


cpzilliacus

Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2013, 05:01:42 PM
Since the trooper can check occupancy, couldn't a camera?

Last discussion I heard of that was at a session of the Transportation Research Board (TRB) a few years ago.   At the time, the formal research was that there is no unclassified technology out there that could reliably measure vehicle occupancy.

Keep in mind that if a driver violates the HOV requirement and gets caught, a summons is issued that can be challenged in court. 

I suppose that HOV violations based on an automated device could be defined as non-moving violations with a modest (or not-so-modest) fine, but no "points" on the drivers license and a lower legal burden of proof.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

#270
Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
According to the theory of "commuter discounts/plans should be available to all with an E-ZPass", the "HOV commuter plan" (which you can sign up for by purchasing a Flex transponder) seems to fall into a slightly separate category of transponder discrimination.  vdeane brings up a good point.

Yes, it is a form of transponder discrimination (though MdTA does issue Flex transponders (I have one), even though Maryland does not currently have any HOV/Toll roads or crossings (and as far as I know, does not plan to have any)). 

Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
My guess is that Transurban is not exactly too upset about someone from New York on a family vacation to Virginia having to pay the toll despite having a minivan full of kiddies...more money for them.  It is also easier for them to enforce the HOV rules.  If you have a "put up an E-ZPass if you have 1 or two people, 'bag the tag' if you have 3+" rule, then someone could hide their E-ZPass (human flesh acts as a good enough shield...if you sit on the tag it won't read) when there is no police officer at the gantry, and pop the tag up quickly if there is an officer, in effect, only paying for segments where there is an officer present.  With the Flex rule, once you pass a gantry, the fact that you entered with the tag in HOV mode is "locked in" (along with your toll rate).  So if you pass 4 gantries with no officer, and then you see an officer at the 5th gantry, if you flip the switch to non-HOV mode, my understanding is that the light will still flash and you will still get pulled over, and then be forced to pay for all of the gantries you skipped.  And as cpz mentioned, it is easier for Transurban and VDOT to keep track of carpoolers in case the carpool threshold exceeds that where VDOT would be required to pay Transurban for a toll.

All correct.  You are especially spot-on about the out-of-town family having to pay the toll (since lanes with  HOV restrictions are presumably there for commuter traffic, not vacation or other "non-work" traffic that "naturally" has a higher average occupancy rate).

Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
I actually read an article about this recently (can't remember where though).  The article was discussing two types of HOT lanes, and two types of carpools.  I bet cpz has some comments about this topic.

Yep.

Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
The first type of HOT lane is an underutilized HOV lane that is converted to allow toll paying SOV traffic.  These lanes typically have very low capital costs since the infrastructure is already there and paid for, only the toll collection infrastructure is needed to convert to HOT.  In these lanes, the priority is generally given to HOV traffic (the original intended users), and "excess space is sold".  This is money that a government or HOT lane owner would otherwise not get for very little extra investment, so these lanes often have high percentages of those who do not pay tolls, not too much in terms of income, but high profitability since they have few expenses to pay.  The toll rates can be dropped to rock bottom rates when the lanes are empty.

That's the model for the existing I-95/I-395 (Shirley Highway) HOV lanes between Va. 234 (Dumfries) and the Turkeycock Run ramps in Fairfax County, Va.  Though they do pretty well when it comes to moving people, they suffer from "empty lane syndrome."

Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
The other kind of HOT lane is similar to the ones on I-495, new lanes constructed to be HOT lanes.  These have much higher costs because it involves new construction.  Therefore, the operators are much more interested in recovering high construction costs.  So, these shouldn't be thought of as "HOV lanes with excess capacity sold", but more "toll lanes that allow HOV's meeting very specific requirements in for free).  In otherwords, they want most vehicles to pay tolls.  They need to make money.  They have an incentive to make it difficult to claim the carpool exemption.  They also typically have higher toll rates, because they need to maximize revenue, even if the traffic carrying utility of these lanes is low.  They would rather make big bucks off a small number of users, hoping to entice more users into the empty lanes, rather than fill the lanes up at a low toll rate and risk not maximizing their revenue.

Also correct.  And remember that as part of the HOV/Toll land construction, there was a lot of money spent on the eight parallel "free" lanes of I-495 in Fairfax County.

Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
Then we get to the two kinds of carpools.  Work-based carpools: co-workers ridesharing from home to the office, where some co-workers would otherwise be driving alone.  These carpools actually remove vehicles from the road.  "Fampools": carpools comprised of family members traveling together that would otherwise travel together anyway, and can include infants and other non-licensed drivers.  These carpools do not remove vehicles from the road, yet are entitled to the same benefits as co-worker based carpools.  When a typical HOV lane is involved, it might not seem fair that fampools have access to the HOV lanes, but since many HOV lanes are underutilized (not necessarily in DC area, but throughout the country), this at least gives the illusion that they are more useful in carrying people/removing cars from the road than they really are.  No harm, no foul, any car in the HOV lane is one less car in the other lanes.  But when HOT lanes get involved...these fampools translate into revenue loss for the operators of the lanes.  All of a sudden, you find a war against casual carpooling and fampools because the operators of these lanes feel that discounts/free passage should be given to only a few, and priority for that should be given to those who actually remove other cars from the road.

Your words above remind me a lot of what Bob Poole (of the Reason Foundation) has said about HOV lanes (and especially those that are underutilized, including "fampools," which have long existed, especially in Northern Virginia - even when the HOV requirement was HOV-4).

Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
The author of this paper was actually advocating for a system similar to what is used on I-95 in Florida, where only registered carpools can obtain free passage.  Everyone else pays a toll.  In order to register, each member of the carpool must be a licensed driver (in Florida), and provide their license, registration, home and work address (to show that it is reasonable that the lanes would be used by 3+ for the purpose of going to work).  Each driver has the ability to use their car for the carpool, but audits are performed both on the road and electronically to ensure that abuse is not occurring...the enforcement is done by shielding the transponder, using an HOV sticker, and the toll system will capture the license plate number which is on a "white list" so that no violations are issued if no ETC transponder is present.  On the road- does the vehicle that did not pay the toll have a carpool sticker and 3 people inside?  Electronically- did all of the three vehicles in the carpool use the lanes toll free on the same morning multiple times, or something similar that could indicate the lanes are not being used by the registered occupants for a trip to/from work?

That approach would be really, really bad  in Northern Virginia (especially in the Shirley Highway corridor), where there is a very active system of informal car-pooling called "slugging" (see this Web site for more).  Slugging dates back to the earliest days of HOV-4 operation on Shirley Highway in the 1970's, when the reversible HOV lanes ended just south of Va. 644 (Franconia Road/Old Keene Mill Road).  Drivers in the Springfield area of Fairfax County on Old Keene Mill Road (especially) would stop at the bus stops and pick up enough riders ("slugs") to comply with the HOV requirement (once HOV-4, HOV-3 since the late 1980's).  This infuriated the staff at WMATA (no Fairfax Connector back then), who felt that the drivers ("body snatchers") were "stealing" their paying patrons.  Eventually the system of slugging evolved and expanded, so there are formal "slug lines" at an assortment of places along the I-95/I-395 corridor as far south as (!) Caroline County (according to the Web site hyperlinked above).

Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
So Florida has made it next to impossible for casual carpools and fampools to gain free access...and I'm sure FDOT is okay with this, because that means more revenue for them.

Agreed.   

Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
Los Angeles and DC have taken an intermediate approach.  They won't require registration with tight requirements, but they won't let everyone use the lanes for free just by virtue of not having an active transponder (or a bagged/shielded transponder)...they will make you do just enough upfront work, and will make it more costly than obtaining a regular transponder (in Virginia, it is an extra 50 cents per month for a Flex, in Maryland the one time fee is $18, instead of $9 for a regular transponder), so as to discourage as many people as possible.  Of course, they won't advertise to anyone outside the DC area about the E-ZPass Flex option, but by golly, they will ensure that you know anyone with an E-ZPass, even one from far away, can enter the lanes if they wish to pay!

That is correct.  I did not feel that the one-time $18 charge by MdTA was unreasonable.

I have some familiarity with  the I-10 (San Bernardino Freeway) HOV-3 facility in Los Angeles County, also sometimes called the El Monte Busway.  I once saw some of the person-moving stats from those lanes, and they looked to be as good as the Shirley Highway HOV lanes in terms of time saved and persons transported in two lanes. 

Quote from: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
So I would expect more of these schemes to make claiming the HOV exemption more difficult in the future as HOT lanes spread, and toll operators seek to minimize "fampools" taking advantage of these discounts.

Speaking of HOV travel, the one thing that all of the D.C.-area operators of toll roads (MWAA, Transurban, TRIP II and MdTA) do allow for free, with no restriction at all, is transit buses.   All of them allow (transit and commuter) buses to use their toll roads and toll crossings (there's Maryland Transit Administration "Flyer" express bus service crossing the Bay Bridge and on the ICC), though I presume the loss of revenue is not that high, since the number of buses in the fleet is relatively small and it is easy to manage the (presumably non-revenue) transponders issued for bus use. 

I believe that school buses are legally entitled to free passage, even though they obviously are not for transportation of commuters (this may be made easier because the public school buses in all (or most) of Virginia and in the close-in Maryland suburbs of D.C. all have local government registration plates - most other counties in Maryland contract-out school bus service to the private sector, and those buses do not have government registration).

Being the national capital, I have seen yellow school buses around Washington from as far away as Connecticut to the north; South Carolina to the south and distant West Virginia counties (I believe I have seen Ohio County, W.Va. buses from the Northern Panhandle) to the west on multi-day field trips to D.C.  Not sure if those buses are entitled to free passage or not.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

deathtopumpkins

Not a DC road, but I remember on a trip to Richmond in high school the bus driver paid a toll on 195, which surprised me considering I had assumed city school buses with local government plates wouldn't have to pay, like you describe.
Disclaimer: All posts represent my personal opinions and not those of my employer.

Clinched Highways | Counties Visited

cpzilliacus

Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 01, 2013, 11:04:03 PM
Not a DC road, but I remember on a trip to Richmond in high school the bus driver paid a toll on 195, which surprised me considering I had assumed city school buses with local government plates wouldn't have to pay, like you describe.

I have seen Fairfax County Public Schools buses stop at the  Dulles Toll Road tolls and be asked to sign  something, then sent on their way (why FCPS doesn't have E-ZPass transponders in its bus fleet - at least those that use Va. 267 - is above my pay grade).

Since Md. 200 opened, I have seen a fair number of Montgomery County Public Schools buses on it.  MCPS has obtained orange non-revenue transponders for the buses that drive Md. 200 (apparently not all states issue orange E-ZPass transponders).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

vdeane

I'm surprised there are buses from that far away.  My school district always contracted to Coach whenever there was a trip more than an hour long each way.  I can't imagine it's comfortable to sit in a yellow limo for eight hours.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

deathtopumpkins

Quote from: vdeane on April 02, 2013, 05:05:03 PM
I'm surprised there are buses from that far away.  My school district always contracted to Coach whenever there was a trip more than an hour long each way.  I can't imagine it's comfortable to sit in a yellow limo for eight hours.

It's not even comfortable for eight minutes.

And c.p., that may be it - they may have just signed something. I couldn't really see, I just know we stopped at the booth.
Disclaimer: All posts represent my personal opinions and not those of my employer.

Clinched Highways | Counties Visited



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.