Last Phase I signs in Vermont are disappearing in 2010

[J N Winkler]

What type of BGSes does VT use?  It looks like what I call "stacked" signage, where the sign parts are stacked horizontally with square corners. CT uses the same.  Anybody know the official name?

Extruded aluminum.  See:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4173.0

What type of lettering format is used?  ie Buttoncopy was used before etc.

Clearview 5-W is used for all primary destination legend, except in certain isolated cases (e.g. rest area signs with 3-W and supplemental panels with 3-W for "long" destinations).  The copy is almost certainly direct-applied (I haven't checked against the plans, but demountable copy in general is on the way out).  The sign drawings have been prepared in SignCAD.

[Mergingtraffic]

New BGS are Clearview typeface, that much I know. NY does fine because they shift the exit tab over to the edge of the curve. The other option would be to curve the exit tab but have a straight transition on the right side of the sign.

In fact Alps, sometimes in NY, the exit tab is centered by default as the exit tab is big and the BGS itself is not wide-enough to allign it, plus the fact NY doesnt put the tab over the curve.  Ie. Exit 12 WB sign on I-84 in Fishkill. 

[Mergingtraffic]

What type of BGSes does VT use?  It looks like what I call "stacked" signage, where the sign parts are stacked horizontally with square corners. CT uses the same.  Anybody know the official name?

Extruded aluminum.  See:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4173.0

What type of lettering format is used?  ie Buttoncopy was used before etc.

Clearview 5-W is used for all primary destination legend, except in certain isolated cases (e.g. rest area signs with 3-W and supplemental panels with 3-W for "long" destinations).  The copy is almost certainly direct-applied (I haven't checked against the plans, but demountable copy in general is on the way out).  The sign drawings have been prepared in SignCAD.

If demountable copy is on its way out?  What are they using instead?  What's the difference with direct-applied? Thanks!

[J N Winkler]

Demountable copy is cut or stamped to shape out of sheet aluminum and secured to the sign panel with rivets.  Direct-applied copy is simply stuck onto the sign panel in the same way as the background sheeting--generally with pressure-sensitive adhesive.

[hbelkins]

(I haven't checked against the plans, but demountable copy in general is on the way out).  The sign drawings have been prepared in SignCAD.

Why? Demountable copy makes it easier to make changes in the sign should changes become necessary. Just take down and replace lettering, route markers, etc., vs. using greenouts.

[J N Winkler]

It is just as easy to prepare message revisions by sticking the new message (and green-background patch) directly over the existing legend.  Demountable legend entails a separate process for manufacturing the letter blanks and revising messages involves drilling out rivets.

[agentsteel53]

It is just as easy to prepare message revisions by sticking the new message (and green-background patch) directly over the existing legend.  Demountable legend entails a separate process for manufacturing the letter blanks and revising messages involves drilling out rivets.

correct.  retroreflective greenout is really easy to do.  also, if correctly done, it is unnoticeable.

[hbelkins]

correct.  retroreflective greenout is really easy to do.  also, if correctly done, it is unnoticeable.

Well then, I have never seen it correctly done because it jumps out at me every time I see it.

[agentsteel53]

Well then, I have never seen it correctly done

well no, by definition, you would not have.

(I can maybe dig up a photo or two of greenout that can only be seen upon close inspection ... usually by noting that white letters covered up by green still are raised very slightly and can be noted at the correct angle.)

[vdeane]

For example, take this sign:

The one on the right is an example of greenout done right (or close).  At freeway speeds it's very difficult to tell (other than by the ugliness of cramming two arrows on it... I guess NYSDOT has been taking pointers from Caltrans).

The one on the left is an example of "green" out done wrong...

[agentsteel53]

The one on the left is an example of "green" out done wrong...

I cannot see it at all.  Seems fine to me.  Or do you mean the "orangeout"?

[cu2010]

For example, take this sign:
*terrible new 590 alignment*
The one on the right is an example of greenout done right (or close).  At freeway speeds it's very difficult to tell (other than by the ugliness of cramming two arrows on it... I guess NYSDOT has been taking pointers from Caltrans).

The two arrows on the greenout plate look off, though...

[vdeane]

The one on the left is an example of "green" out done wrong...

I cannot see it at all.  Seems fine to me.  Or do you mean the "orangeout"?

The left one has the exit only added in orange.  The right had one arrow greened out and replaced with two.

[hbelkins]

The left one has the exit only added in orange.  The right had one arrow greened out and replaced with two.

And I saw the green square without any effort whatsoever. Would have been much nicer if a demountable single arrow had been removed and two new ones riveted into place.

[J N Winkler]

And I saw the green square without any effort whatsoever. Would have been much nicer if a demountable single arrow had been removed and two new ones riveted into place.

If that had been done, I would have been able to see the rivet holes without any effort whatsoever.

[hbelkins]

And I saw the green square without any effort whatsoever. Would have been much nicer if a demountable single arrow had been removed and two new ones riveted into place.

If that had been done, I would have been able to see the rivet holes without any effort whatsoever.

Except the rivet holes don't bother me, but greenout does. Guess it's just a matter of personal preference.

[J N Winkler]

Except the rivet holes don't bother me, but greenout does. Guess it's just a matter of personal preference.

Yup.  When it comes down to a matter of personal preference, state DOTs demonstrate responsible use of taxpayer money by choosing the cheaper option.

[hbelkins]

Except the rivet holes don't bother me, but greenout does. Guess it's just a matter of personal preference.

Yup.  When it comes down to a matter of personal preference, state DOTs demonstrate responsible use of taxpayer money by choosing the cheaper option.

And greenout is cheaper than demountable copy?

[Duke87]

I would imagine it must be. Removing every letter individually and sticking new ones back up individually is a lot more labor intensive than just slapping one big piece of greenout on.
Besides, with demountable copy you have the problem of letters falling off.

[Scott5114]

Demountable copy also incurs the cost of keeping an inventory of all possible characters multiplied by the number of desired text heights, plus the added cost needed to manufacture one-off elements like diagrammatic arrows.

I much prefer demountable copy because the limited number of elements that can be used makes it less likely that some weird non-standard thing will be used. It is actually more work to break standard on demountable copy than it would be to slap any old thing up there.

[shadyjay]

Back On Topic, Now......

As promised, I did another road trip around the Green Mountain State today.  I headed down I-89 from Exit 10 (Waterbury) to White River Junction, then (after a brief visit to West Lebanon NH), I-91 North to Exit 28 (Newport), then VT 105 to VT 100 back home.  I did not go beyond Exit 28 on I-91 since its just one more exit and I already have photographic evidence of new signage in that area.

So some highlights:

*   I-89 retains primary "Phase II" signage from 1 mile south of Exit 3 (Royalton) south to the New Hampshire state line.  Some construction
     was taking place in the median around Exit 1 with some conduits sticking out.... not sure what that was about.  The button copy sign on
     the west end of the Connecticut River bridge remains.  In addition, the NH Exit 20 BGS has been replaced, amist major construction
     throughout that interchange.

*   I-91 signage was replaced last year between Exit 24 (Lyndonville) and Exit 29.  Signs are in Clearview and have had some minor
     destination and route changes (especially for Exits 24 & 25).   Full size 0.2/mile markers appear starting at Exit 24 - south of there, only
     the full miles are makred with a traditional mile marker with other mileage defined by small green on white squares.  The "highest elevation
     on I-91" sign has been retained but is *much* smaller now - about the size of the Eiesenhower Interstate System signs.  In addition,
     each "reassurance" route marker carries the EIS shield and is mounted on a single pole.  After Exit 26-NB, the mileage/control point sign
     reads "NEWPORT - 6.... SHERBROOKE - 43".  I got off the interstate at Exit 28 as time was running short and we were getting hungry.


Here's the photos:

http://picasaweb.google.com/shadyjayvt/I89SignReplacementSummer2010Spring2011#

http://picasaweb.google.com/shadyjayvt/I91Vermont#
(the newest signs don't start until Exit 24)

The replacement of signs on I-91 from Exit 24, northward, represents the last of the "significant" button copy interstate signage in Vermont.   The only areas where older signage remains is on I-91 from the Mass border to Exit 10 (White River Jct) and I-89 between the NH border and before Exit 3.  Judging by a press release issued by VAOT last year, it is likely that those last older signs are on borrowed time as well, though definitely aren't as classic as those on northern sections of I-91 were.

*   

[Ian]

How about the non-clearview BGSs on US 4 between Rutland and the New York border? Are those going to be the next to hit the axe? Is the short I-93 in Vermont completely clearviewized as well?

[froggie]

Is the short I-93 in Vermont completely clearviewized as well?

Not yet.

[shadyjay]

I-91 between Exits 11 & 23 and US 4 (west of Rutland) was all replaced within the past 5 years.  Those signs are NOT in Clearview but are reflective.   
I-89 between Exits 3 & 22 is now all Clearview (except one sign in Burlington for Exit 14) and is all reflective.

"Endangered Species" are on I-89 between the NH border and Exit 3 and I-91 between the MA border and Exit 10. 

[Dr Frankenstein]

The very first sign bridge on I-91 SB just after the border checkpoint has not been Clearviewized.