Some thoughts after a visit to California

[jwolfer]

I really don't have a feeling either way about the Freeway Entrance sign. It made sense when freeways were a novelty back before 1960. Or in Urban areas when the freeway entrance uses the street grid..

An interstate sign or just the grade separation indicates freeway to me and I think to most people, but I am a road geek.

[coatimundi]

They're very helpful in California, I think, because you sometimes don't know if you're getting on a freeway or not here. It happens a lot in LA: you just happen to make a wrong turn and you're suddenly on an entrance ramp to the 405 and can't get off for over a mile. And, when you do get off, you can get dropped in some neighborhood with no clue on how to get back, since just turning around mostly does not work, since standard diamond interchanges are pretty rare. It was a bigger problem before smartphones, when you then had to find a place to ask for directions.
It's actually happened to me a couple of times where, I've started to make a turn, then saw that sign, and went straight instead (or turned instead of going straight onto the freeway due to the sign).

[jwolfer]

They're very helpful in California, I think, because you sometimes don't know if you're getting on a freeway or not here. It happens a lot in LA: you just happen to make a wrong turn and you're suddenly on an entrance ramp to the 405 and can't get off for over a mile. And, when you do get off, you can get dropped in some neighborhood with no clue on how to get back, since just turning around mostly does not work, since standard diamond interchanges are pretty rare. It was a bigger problem before smartphones, when you then had to find a place to ask for directions.
It's actually happened to me a couple of times where, I've started to make a turn, then saw that sign, and went straight instead (or turned instead of going straight onto the freeway due to the sign).

It can happen in urban areas when city streets were used to make exit and entrance ramps

[Bobby5280]

Chalk one minor victory up for states rights.

That's a hollow victory for "states rights" considering their violation of MUTCD specifications results in something that looks very stupidly wrong. It's piss poor sign design. Very poor in both functions of legibility and design aesthetics.

[Exit58]

I really don't have a feeling either way about the Freeway Entrance sign. It made sense when freeways were a novelty back before 1960. Or in Urban areas when the freeway entrance uses the street grid..

An interstate sign or just the grade separation indicates freeway to me and I think to most people, but I am a road geek.

Coming back from a trip to Phoenix, I greatly missed the Freeway Entrance signs. In most areas, they aren't needed as long as you have the route number, but in some instances (like L-101) where you merge left from a side street onto the freeway, just a guide sign at the very end of the separation is not helpful. Interstates it's not always needed either. I don't think they have really been needed since the system was completed.

I have to agree though that Phoenix freeways (and just Arizona highways overall) are so much better maintained then California's by a long shot. The higher speed limit on the Interstates is also nice. It took me a while to realize that the limit was 75 while a bunch of cars were passing by me doing 80+. Guide signs are also clear and coherent, but I must say Clearview sucks. Give me Series E any day.

[Quillz]

Freeway entrance signs are nice for when you've got a long state or US highway that may not always have a freeway segment. Obviously, you won't need it for an interstate, but look at US-101 in California and Oregon. Many freeway segments in the former, with non-freeway segments in between, while it's almost entirely a 2-lane coastal road in the latter. Or something like CA-41 in the Central Valley, where it's 2-lane highway until it's not, rapidly becoming freeway as you approach Fresno.

[jakeroot]

If it's a freeway, it should have FREEWAY ENTRANCE signs. Whether it's an interstate, state, county, or US route is not relevant. A freeway is a freeway.

[coatimundi]

Freeway entrance signs are nice for when you've got a long state or US highway that may not always have a freeway segment. Obviously, you won't need it for an interstate, but look at US-101 in California and Oregon. Many freeway segments in the former, with non-freeway segments in between, while it's almost entirely a 2-lane coastal road in the latter. Or something like CA-41 in the Central Valley, where it's 2-lane highway until it's not, rapidly becoming freeway as you approach Fresno.

That's why California has its "Begin Freeway" and "End Freeway" signs: so that drivers know when to expect cross traffic. Though it's often obvious, as is the case with most of Fresno's exurb freeway stubs, on freeway-to-expressway transitions, like the many on the 101, it's usually not obvious, and the speed limit doesn't change.

[Quillz]

If it's a freeway, it should have FREEWAY ENTRANCE signs. Whether it's an interstate, state, county, or US route is not relevant. A freeway is a freeway.

I agree with this. Most states just use the "FREEWAY ENTRANCE" signs without any further information. Having that extra bit of info (the route number, the cardinal direction) is nice.

[djsekani]

Freeway entrance signs are nice for when you've got a long state or US highway that may not always have a freeway segment. Obviously, you won't need it for an interstate, but look at US-101 in California and Oregon. Many freeway segments in the former, with non-freeway segments in between, while it's almost entirely a 2-lane coastal road in the latter. Or something like CA-41 in the Central Valley, where it's 2-lane highway until it's not, rapidly becoming freeway as you approach Fresno.

That's why California has its "Begin Freeway" and "End Freeway" signs: so that drivers know when to expect cross traffic. Though it's often obvious, as is the case with most of Fresno's exurb freeway stubs, on freeway-to-expressway transitions, like the many on the 101, it's usually not obvious, and the speed limit doesn't change.

Better examples would be the 60 and 71 freeways. There's a brief portion of the 60 with cross traffic, and there are actually traffic lights on a short portion of the 71.

[Exit58]

Talks are Caltrans if going to be finishing the 71 in the next couple years. Sounds like they finally hammered out the deal with Chino and Chino Hills.

Many other routes come to mind too, like SR 30. It had two stub freeways connected via a side street, making Freeway Entrace (FE) signs very nice to have. It's a good indication that you're not expecting cross traffic ahead unless you come to an 'End Freeway' banner. Another good case is the 86 Expressway. It has many grade separated intersections in Indio, but is not a freeway nor is signed as such. It's onramps just simply state SR 86 North/South. But I-10 right up the street does have FE signs, so you know it's limited access.

[silverback1065]

Talks are Caltrans if going to be finishing the 71 in the next couple years. Sounds like they finally hammered out the deal with Chino and Chino Hills.

Many other routes come to mind too, like SR 30. It had two stub freeways connected via a side street, making Freeway Entrace (FE) signs very nice to have. It's a good indication that you're not expecting cross traffic ahead unless you come to an 'End Freeway' banner. Another good case is the 86 Expressway. It has many grade separated intersections in Indio, but is not a freeway nor is signed as such. It's onramps just simply state SR 86 North/South. But I-10 right up the street does have FE signs, so you know it's limited access.

I'd never be able to fit in in california when it comes to describing roads, I'd always say "California XX or SR XX" or "US 101" or "Interstate XX" instead of "THE XX"

[roadfro]

I'd never be able to fit in in california when it comes to describing roads, I'd always say "California XX or SR XX" or "US 101" or "Interstate XX" instead of "THE XX"

"The XX" is more of a SoCal thing. Although my observation is that this particular nomenclature is more prevalent when talking about freeway-grade facilities.

You'd fit in a little better in NorCal, where highways tend to be referred to more by just the number (e.g. I-80 as simply "80") and "The" is not really used.


By the way, these nomenclature styles have also migrated to southern and northern Nevada as well. People in Vegas tend to say "The XX" frequently and Reno people frequently use numbers only, although this usage is not strictly adhered to and you will get many people who say "I-XX" or "US-XX" or "State Route XX" in both areas–although "Highway XX" is frequently used for U.S. Routes statewide outside of urban areas.

Edited to add italics in last sentence.

[coatimundi]

"The" has firmly entrenched itself in Phoenix colloquialism as well, but that's only because it became a Los Angeles suburb in the 2000's. With all the Angelenos in the Bay Area, I've always been surprised that it hasn't caught on there. Maybe their last, too-late stand against cultural infringement from the south.
I'd be disappointed if it ever caught on in places like Houston, where you get to hear the nasally discomfort of a Texas accent saying "I".

[TheStranger]

With all the Angelenos in the Bay Area, I've always been surprised that it hasn't caught on there.

Part of it is the continued usage of freeway names on radio traffic reports (i.e. the Bayshore, MacArthur, Eastshore and Nimitz Freeways) IMO.

[Max Rockatansky]

"The" has firmly entrenched itself in Phoenix colloquialism as well, but that's only because it became a Los Angeles suburb in the 2000's. With all the Angelenos in the Bay Area, I've always been surprised that it hasn't caught on there. Maybe their last, too-late stand against cultural infringement from the south.
I'd be disappointed if it ever caught on in places like Houston, where you get to hear the nasally discomfort of a Texas accent saying "I".

Personally I always preferred "the" followed by the route number. Back when I was living in Michigan everyone would refer to the highway, more specifically the freeways by name.  So nobody would use "M-10" but would say the "Lodge."  I might not know the name of all the freeways out there but I sure do know the route number.

[djsekani]

Talks are Caltrans if going to be finishing the 71 in the next couple years. Sounds like they finally hammered out the deal with Chino and Chino Hills.

Many other routes come to mind too, like SR 30. It had two stub freeways connected via a side street, making Freeway Entrace (FE) signs very nice to have. It's a good indication that you're not expecting cross traffic ahead unless you come to an 'End Freeway' banner. Another good case is the 86 Expressway. It has many grade separated intersections in Indio, but is not a freeway nor is signed as such. It's onramps just simply state SR 86 North/South. But I-10 right up the street does have FE signs, so you know it's limited access.

I'd never be able to fit in in california when it comes to describing roads, I'd always say "California XX or SR XX" or "US 101" or "Interstate XX" instead of "THE XX"

It's been an adjustment that took a few years. I grew up with "The Lodge", "The Chrysler", and "The Jeffries". I don't even think Detroit locals use those names any more.

[coatimundi]

I don't ever recall anyone saying "Bayshore Freeway" in a traffic report. Is there a certain station that does that? I'm mostly on KQED when I'm up there, and they may be too "NPR-ish" to be considered true representations. But they'll mostly preface it with location, like "In San Rafael, on 101 at Third Street".

The traffic reporters in Houston use both (e.g. - "I-10, the Katy Freeway"), which I always thought was a bit much for something that needs to be concise, but most freeways in Houston have two sides, so you can't just use the route number. At some point in the 90's, I-10 east changed from just "East" to "Baytown East", and the traffic reports followed suit. So that's a five syllable route identifier. Silly...

[Max Rockatansky]

Talks are Caltrans if going to be finishing the 71 in the next couple years. Sounds like they finally hammered out the deal with Chino and Chino Hills.

Many other routes come to mind too, like SR 30. It had two stub freeways connected via a side street, making Freeway Entrace (FE) signs very nice to have. It's a good indication that you're not expecting cross traffic ahead unless you come to an 'End Freeway' banner. Another good case is the 86 Expressway. It has many grade separated intersections in Indio, but is not a freeway nor is signed as such. It's onramps just simply state SR 86 North/South. But I-10 right up the street does have FE signs, so you know it's limited access.

I'd never be able to fit in in california when it comes to describing roads, I'd always say "California XX or SR XX" or "US 101" or "Interstate XX" instead of "THE XX"

It's been an adjustment that took a few years. I grew up with "The Lodge", "The Chrysler", and "The Jeffries". I don't even think Detroit locals use those names any more.

Apparently my Cousin and Aunt do because they had no idea what I was talking about last October.  When I said Lodge they finally got that I was headed downtown...then added the standard commentary you get from people in the suburbs about such an excursion. lol

[TheStranger]

I don't ever recall anyone saying "Bayshore Freeway" in a traffic report. Is there a certain station that does that? I'm mostly on KQED when I'm up there, and they may be too "NPR-ish" to be considered true representations. But they'll mostly preface it with location, like "In San Rafael, on 101 at Third Street".

104.5 KFOG a few weeks ago.

I've heard "Eastshore Freeway" and the Macarthur Maze mentioned more on TV broadcasts.

[myosh_tino]

I don't ever recall anyone saying "Bayshore Freeway" in a traffic report. Is there a certain station that does that? I'm mostly on KQED when I'm up there, and they may be too "NPR-ish" to be considered true representations. But they'll mostly preface it with location, like "In San Rafael, on 101 at Third Street".

104.5 KFOG a few weeks ago.

I've heard "Eastshore Freeway" and the Macarthur Maze mentioned more on TV broadcasts.

KCBS and KNBR still use freeway names in their traffic reports.

[sparker]

The four Bay Area freeway names often referenced over the air are: Bayshore, Eastshore, Nimitz, and MacArthur (101, 80, 880, and 580 respectively).  Except for the bridges themselves, which are almost always named (along with the Caldecott Tunnel), the rest, including I-280 (formally the Junipero Serra Freeway) get numbers over the air.  East of Castro Valley, 580 is simply 580; 680 has never been anything else; likewise with 780.  One time, a few months ago, one of the traffic reporters referred to CA 4 (in the Antioch area) as the "Delta Highway" (it's got a few BGS's proclaiming it the "California Delta Highway") -- but that seemed to have been a one-time utterance; she subsequently went back to calling it "Highway 4".