https://jalopnik.com/teach-all-of-your-friends-a-valuable-life-skill-with-th-1829326305
Including YouTube videos from the Michigan Dept. of Transportation
Needs to be required viewing in Chicago, based on the number of people I've seen making left turns by going the wrong way around the roundabout.
British instructional videos need to be adapted for use in the USA (since we drive on the other side). In particular, instruction on proper use of blinkers at roundabouts is crucial, and use of blinkers needs to be enforced. Assholes who refuse to use a blinker are some of the most annoying people because they so often cause other people to wait unnecessarily (if you signal that you're exiting, the guy waiting to enter knows he doesn't have to yield to you and can go). Doesn't matter if you're a redneck with a big pickup from a place where people think they don't have to signal. Use your damn blinker.
The true message if the video: your car may disappearewhile in a Roundabout!
I guess one of those simulations used to predict roundabout operation. Disappearing from the road is a good way to avoid collision, if you think about it...
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 27, 2018, 08:45:55 PMBritish instructional videos need to be adapted for use in the USA (since we drive on the other side). In particular, instruction on proper use of blinkers at roundabouts is crucial, and use of blinkers needs to be enforced. Assholes who refuse to use a blinker are some of the most annoying people because they so often cause other people to wait unnecessarily (if you signal that you're exiting, the guy waiting to enter knows he doesn't have to yield to you and can go). Doesn't matter if you're a redneck with a big pickup from a place where people think they don't have to signal. Use your damn blinker.
I am not sure I am in full agreement. I agree that turn signals should be used, but it seems to me to be incompatible with defensive driving to maneuver into a conflict point on the assumption that the other driver is signalling a turn that he or she actually intends to make.
My mom and dad don't signal when entering the roundabout, but signal when they exit. Seems reasonable to me.
Quote from: MCRoads on September 28, 2018, 10:05:10 AM
My mom and dad don't signal when entering the roundabout, but signal when they exit. Seems reasonable to me.
Why would you need to signal upon entering a roundabout? What else are you doing besides entering the roundabout?
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 27, 2018, 08:45:55 PM
British instructional videos need to be adapted for use in the USA (since we drive on the other side). In particular, instruction on proper use of blinkers at roundabouts is crucial, and use of blinkers needs to be enforced. Assholes who refuse to use a blinker are some of the most annoying people because they so often cause other people to wait unnecessarily (if you signal that you're exiting, the guy waiting to enter knows he doesn't have to yield to you and can go). Doesn't matter if you're a redneck with a big pickup from a place where people think they don't have to signal. Use your damn blinker.
Unless the other driver would be considered to be at fault if they signaled they were exiting the roundabout, kept going around the roundabout, and hit me, I'd wait till I was 100% sure they were exiting the roundabout anyway.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 28, 2018, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on September 28, 2018, 10:05:10 AM
My mom and dad don't signal when entering the roundabout, but signal when they exit. Seems reasonable to me.
Why would you need to signal upon entering a roundabout? What else are you doing besides entering the roundabout?
If I am turning
right at a roundabout, then I use my right turn signal so an approaching driver on that side knows it's OK to enter the roundabout rather than wait for me. If I'm going straight or turning left, I don't use my signal upon entering so an approaching driver on that side knows it's not OK to enter.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 28, 2018, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on September 28, 2018, 10:05:10 AM
My mom and dad don't signal when entering the roundabout, but signal when they exit. Seems reasonable to me.
Why would you need to signal upon entering a roundabout? What else are you doing besides entering the roundabout?
There is a school of thought that at the entry to roundabout, driver should signal intentions as if entering regular intersection.
I, for one, do signal right turn when I am in a right lane and taking a first exit, it adds up for me.
If you apply that to other paths... Someone taking 3/4 of a turn then should signal left turn - and whenever I see that, I am feeling a bit confused. It is usually pretty useless information anyway.
No explanation is given to how to signal for a roundabout with more than 4 legs (or less than 4 legs), though.
Another approach is to say that you're merging a lane - and as such should signal left. Even if turning right. I suspect emergency blinkers - aka showing right and left turn at the same time - is a better idea for that situation.
The full-on Highway Code approach (which is what 1995hoo is talking about), when transposed appropriately for right-hand traffic, calls for a right-turn signal on entry when taking the first exit, a left-turn signal on entry when taking the last exit, and no signal on entry when taking intermediate exits, with right-turn signal on exit in all cases. But in Britain the Highway Code has the standing of guidance rather than law (nothing it says is obligatory unless there is a provision to the same effect in statute or regulation), and road traffic legislation in general in Britain is not as specific as to turn signal usage as the UVC here--for example, there are no 100 ft low-speed/300 ft high-speed minimum signalling envelope requirements that police can use to stage pretext stops.
I signal as outlined in the Highway Code (appropriately transposed) while observing UVC minimum signalling envelope requirements. I have replaced at least one worn-out turn signal stalk in the past, but in more than 25 years of driving I have never been pulled over for a signalling fault.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2018, 02:27:51 PM
The full-on Highway Code approach ... calls for a right-turn signal on entry when taking the first exit, a left-turn signal on entry when taking the last exit, and no signal on entry when taking intermediate exits, with right-turn signal on exit in all cases.
In other sets of instruction (not from the UK, and I'm too lazy to bother looking them up right now), I've seen it spelled out differently:
If taking the first exit, simply signal right.
If taking the second exit, enter with no signal, then signal right to exit.
If taking any further exit, enter with left signal, then disengage the signal at the exit before yours, then signal right to exit.
It was a thread post on this forum that first made me realize a left signal at a roundabout accomplishes nothing. Neither the driver behind me nor one to the right of me (on a mult-leg rbt) has any need to know I'm turning left. Drivers approaching from other legs can't even see that blinker. I do sometimes still left-blink upon entry when turning left, but I've since become increasingly likely to just not signal upon entry if going straight or turning left.
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 02:47:19 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2018, 02:27:51 PM
The full-on Highway Code approach ... calls for a right-turn signal on entry when taking the first exit, a left-turn signal on entry when taking the last exit, and no signal on entry when taking intermediate exits, with right-turn signal on exit in all cases.
In other sets of instruction (not from the UK, and I'm too lazy to bother looking them up right now), I've seen it spelled out differently:
If taking the first exit, simply signal right.
If taking the second exit, enter with no signal, then signal right to exit.
If taking any further exit, enter with left signal, then disengage the signal at the exit before yours, then signal right to exit.
But to abeforman's point, while you are signaling to turn out of the roundabout, the entering driver may stay still until they are absolutely sure you are turning out. I believe in the US, it's mostly looked upon as the driver with the right-of-way still maintains their right-of-way even if they're misusing the turn signal. In this instance, if there's an accident, the driver with the turn signal on that wasn't turning may still be ticketed, but fault usually lies with the person at the yield or stop sign.
At minimum, at least the entering driver may have a momentarily head start seeing that you are truly exiting, but it probably doesn't make too much of a difference.
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 02:47:19 PMIt was a thread post on this forum that first made me realize a left signal at a roundabout accomplishes nothing. Neither the driver behind me nor one to the right of me (on a mult-leg rbt) has any need to know I'm turning left. Drivers approaching from other legs can't even see that blinker. I do sometimes still left-blink upon entry when turning left, but I've since become increasingly likely to just not signal upon entry if going straight or turning left.
The signals you provide are for the benefit not just of a following car, or cars waiting at other legs, but also for road users whom you may not necessarily be able to see but who can see your signal.
I always err on the side of generosity when signalling, based not just on my own experience but also the experience of family members who tend to signal later than I do and have been rear-ended while slowing down for right turns. I withhold signals only when I see a genuine possibility that a signal turned on early enough to comply with the envelope requirement might fool another driver to maneuver into a conflicting path, with possibly disastrous results.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 28, 2018, 02:59:48 PMBut to abeforman's point, while you are signaling to turn out of the roundabout, the entering driver may stay still until they are absolutely sure you are turning out. I believe in the US, it's mostly looked upon as the driver with the right-of-way still maintains their right-of-way even if they're misusing the turn signal. In this instance, if there's an accident, the driver with the turn signal on that wasn't turning may still be ticketed, but fault usually lies with the person at the yield or stop sign.
It is not solely a question of fault or accident liability. Countries vary in the degree to which they embrace a culture of defensive driving. In Britain, for example, the phrase
defensive driving itself is completely unknown. While there is training in hazard perception, there is much more of an emphasis on expecting that other drivers have been socialized to act correctly, so a certain share of accidents (out of an accident rate that, owing in part to more stringent driver licensing, is lower than that of the US overall) is due to attempting to "make progress" (as the phrase goes) when another driver fails to act as expected.
I feel 1995hoo is trying to encourage us all to "make progress" instead of accept the individually small chunks of time penalty that are involved in driving defensively. While I can understand this point of view, I think defensive driving is a more appropriate posture for the US given the very low bar to obtain a driver's license.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2018, 03:16:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 02:47:19 PMIt was a thread post on this forum that first made me realize a left signal at a roundabout accomplishes nothing. Neither the driver behind me nor one to the right of me (on a mult-leg rbt) has any need to know I'm turning left. Drivers approaching from other legs can't even see that blinker. I do sometimes still left-blink upon entry when turning left, but I've since become increasingly likely to just not signal upon entry if going straight or turning left.
The signals you provide are for the benefit not just of a following car, or cars waiting at other legs, but also for road users whom you may not necessarily be able to see but who can see your signal.
So, what road users
might benefit from a left signal at a roundabout? That is to say, who benefits from knowing–before I even enter the intersection–that I'll be taking the third exit instead of the second? I struggle to think of a single possibility.
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 03:33:48 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2018, 03:16:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 02:47:19 PMIt was a thread post on this forum that first made me realize a left signal at a roundabout accomplishes nothing. Neither the driver behind me nor one to the right of me (on a mult-leg rbt) has any need to know I'm turning left. Drivers approaching from other legs can't even see that blinker. I do sometimes still left-blink upon entry when turning left, but I've since become increasingly likely to just not signal upon entry if going straight or turning left.
The signals you provide are for the benefit not just of a following car, or cars waiting at other legs, but also for road users whom you may not necessarily be able to see but who can see your signal.
So, what road users might benefit from a left signal at a roundabout? That is to say, who benefits from knowing–before I even enter the intersection–that I'll be taking the third exit instead of the second? I struggle to think of a single possibility.
More importantly, who would remember that the car in front of them is taking the third exit?
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 03:33:48 PMSo, what road users might benefit from a left signal at a roundabout? That is to say, who benefits from knowing–before I even enter the intersection–that I'll be taking the third exit instead of the second? I struggle to think of a single possibility.
Boyfriend and girlfriend standing together at the second exit, finishing up a date, headed to cars parked separately. Boyfriend wants to cross first exit to get to his car, while girlfriend wants to cross second exit to get to her car. Your signalling left is relevant information for the girlfriend since it implies you aren't going to cross her path. Girlfriend is hidden from you by the boyfriend but has enough angle on your car to see your left blinker.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2018, 04:01:38 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 03:33:48 PMSo, what road users might benefit from a left signal at a roundabout? That is to say, who benefits from knowing–before I even enter the intersection–that I'll be taking the third exit instead of the second? I struggle to think of a single possibility.
Boyfriend and girlfriend standing together at the second exit, finishing up a date, headed to cars parked separately. Boyfriend wants to cross first exit to get to his car, while girlfriend wants to cross second exit to get to her car. Your signalling left is relevant information for the girlfriend since it implies you aren't going to cross her path. Girlfriend is hidden from you by the boyfriend but has enough angle on your car to see your left blinker.
mmmmmeeyyyyyeehhh...... OK, I guesssss.....
If I imagine the clock tower weren't
here (https://goo.gl/maps/TcoEwWDVxeT2), then I can imagine a couple leaving the bar and crossing the street and that being pertinent information. Personally, I'm not sure I've ever even considered cars more than one exit away when crossing near a roundabout on foot.
IMHO, it's probably more likely that people would be
confused by a left signal than would
benefit from it.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2018, 04:01:38 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 03:33:48 PMSo, what road users might benefit from a left signal at a roundabout? That is to say, who benefits from knowing–before I even enter the intersection–that I'll be taking the third exit instead of the second? I struggle to think of a single possibility.
Boyfriend and girlfriend standing together at the second exit, finishing up a date, headed to cars parked separately. Boyfriend wants to cross first exit to get to his car, while girlfriend wants to cross second exit to get to her car. Your signalling left is relevant information for the girlfriend since it implies you aren't going to cross her path. Girlfriend is hidden from you by the boyfriend but has enough angle on your car to see your left blinker.
Well, it is irrelevant to either of pedestrians as cars must yield to them regardless.
Quote from: kalvado on September 28, 2018, 04:18:29 PM
Well, it is irrelevant to either of pedestrians as cars must yield to them regardless.
Cars' obligation to yield to pedestrians doesn't mean their presence is
irrelevant to pedestrians. It's still useful to know which way cars are going before you cross the street, just in case you need to do a quick avoidance maneuver.
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 04:20:48 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 28, 2018, 04:18:29 PM
Well, it is irrelevant to either of pedestrians as cars must yield to them regardless.
Cars' obligation to yield to pedestrians doesn't mean their presence is irrelevant to pedestrians. It's still useful to know which way cars are going before you cross the street, just in case you need to do a quick avoidance maneuver.
Also, I've never seen a roundabout that has a pedestrian route running through it. That sounds really dangerous.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 28, 2018, 04:32:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 04:20:48 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 28, 2018, 04:18:29 PM
Well, it is irrelevant to either of pedestrians as cars must yield to them regardless.
Cars' obligation to yield to pedestrians doesn't mean their presence is irrelevant to pedestrians. It's still useful to know which way cars are going before you cross the street, just in case you need to do a quick avoidance maneuver.
Also, I've never seen a roundabout that has a pedestrian route running through it. That sounds really dangerous.
I have. Well, town squares rather than proper modern roundabouts, anyway. But it could still matter to people crossing at a crosswalk across one of the approaches.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 28, 2018, 04:32:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 28, 2018, 04:20:48 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 28, 2018, 04:18:29 PM
Well, it is irrelevant to either of pedestrians as cars must yield to them regardless.
Cars' obligation to yield to pedestrians doesn't mean their presence is irrelevant to pedestrians. It's still useful to know which way cars are going before you cross the street, just in case you need to do a quick avoidance maneuver.
Also, I've never seen a roundabout that has a pedestrian route running through it. That sounds really dangerous.
Not through the center island, but through enter/exit arms. Please see the one in video for an example of this dangerous design.
I walk through such a setup about once a month and drive same spot few times a week; and it is really very uncomfortable experience. Jaywalking 200 feet away is a MUCH safer way of doing it, weather permitting. Drivers in a circle don't really see pedestrian (and pedestrian don't see blinkers) until it is too late.
Found one I've driven through. It doesn't have the typical yield-upon-entry setup that a true modern roundabout does, but check out this one in Jonesboro, IL (https://goo.gl/maps/rsjZfzkH4N22). A park in the middle, with sidewalks spilling out into the circle.
Many people confuse other and older styles of circular intersections with modern roundabouts. High speed, east coast rotaries, large multi-lane traffic circles (Arc D'Triomphe, Dupont Circle), and small neighborhood traffic circles are not modern roundabouts.
The Brits even call a merry-go-round a kid's roundabout.
Go to http://www.k-state.edu/roundabouts/photos.htm to see pictures.
What is, and is not, a modern roundabout:
WA DOT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsCoI7lERGE
NJ traffic circles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_traffic_circles_in_New_Jersey
NJ wins award for building roundabout:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/national-roadway-safety-award-winners-announced-300556007.html
Not through the center island, but through enter/exit arms. Please see the one in video for an example of this dangerous design.
I walk through such a setup about once a month and drive same spot few times a week; and it is really very uncomfortable experience. Jaywalking 200 feet away is a MUCH safer way of doing it, weather permitting. Drivers in a circle don't really see pedestrian (and pedestrian don't see blinkers) until it is too late.
[/quote]
All modern roundabouts have median islands separating incoming and outgoing auto traffic. Pedestrians don't have to find a gap in two directions of traffic, just one. This is safer for pedestrians, especially for younger or older ones, because they only need to concentrate on one direction of traffic at a time. This is what is meant by two-phase. Cross the first half, pause if you need to, then cross the second half. With the lower design speed of 15-20 mph, roundabout medians become very safe places to cross. It's estimated that median refuges for pedestrians reduce crashes by 25% or better.
On multi-lane crossings pedestrian beacons or signals are often added if the auto (or pedestrian) traffic is too numerous. The signals can also be two phase, requiring the pedestrian to push a second button when they get to the median. The median can also have a Z path to reorient the pedestrian to view oncoming traffic. Also, the signals usually rest in off, so they are only activated if a pedestrian needs the help crossing. This way only motorists that need to stop are delayed.
Pedestrians using roundabouts:
WashDOT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y05qGz5B1Wg
In Fort Worth, TX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6yYJYgdNTA
FDOT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFVCDLdmI3A
Lake County video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivy5vNqe85o
Clearwater, FL, check at 1 minute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIwsAb1lHKo
Springfield, OR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHEMbIzswKA
Kitchener, ON: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E3LNqge9ps
Funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlQ81TMsGuU
Michigan State: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNxy3LIlhgQ
Quote from: ScottRAB on September 28, 2018, 07:59:55 PM
Not through the center island, but through enter/exit arms. Please see the one in video for an example of this dangerous design.
I walk through such a setup about once a month and drive same spot few times a week; and it is really very uncomfortable experience. Jaywalking 200 feet away is a MUCH safer way of doing it, weather permitting. Drivers in a circle don't really see pedestrian (and pedestrian don't see blinkers) until it is too late.
All modern roundabouts have median islands separating incoming and outgoing auto traffic. Pedestrians don't have to find a gap in two directions of traffic, just one. This is safer for pedestrians, especially for younger or older ones, because they only need to concentrate on one direction of traffic at a time. This is what is meant by two-phase. Cross the first half, pause if you need to, then cross the second half. With the lower design speed of 15-20 mph, roundabout medians become very safe places to cross. It's estimated that median refuges for pedestrians reduce crashes by 25% or better.
On multi-lane crossings pedestrian beacons or signals are often added if the auto (or pedestrian) traffic is too numerous. The signals can also be two phase, requiring the pedestrian to push a second button when they get to the median. The median can also have a Z path to reorient the pedestrian to view oncoming traffic. Also, the signals usually rest in off, so they are only activated if a pedestrian needs the help crossing. This way only motorists that need to stop are delayed.
Pedestrians using roundabouts:
WashDOT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y05qGz5B1Wg
In Fort Worth, TX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6yYJYgdNTA
FDOT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFVCDLdmI3A
Lake County video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivy5vNqe85o
Clearwater, FL, check at 1 minute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIwsAb1lHKo
Springfield, OR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHEMbIzswKA
Kitchener, ON: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E3LNqge9ps
Funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlQ81TMsGuU
Michigan State: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNxy3LIlhgQ
Thank you, sir, but you didn't really had to bother registering to copy paste this propaganda. But not to be too harsh.... When did you try such a walk yourself last time?
Quote from: ScottRAB on September 28, 2018, 07:55:06 PM
Many people confuse other and older styles of circular intersections with modern roundabouts. High speed, east coast rotaries, large multi-lane traffic circles (Arc D'Triomphe, Dupont Circle), and small neighborhood traffic circles are not modern roundabouts.
The Brits even call a merry-go-round a kid's roundabout.
Fully aware already. But considering that modern roundabouts, by definition, don't have a pedestrian route running through the middle–it was obviously necessary to expand the definition a bit to include circular intersections that are somewhat but not exactly like a modern roundabout.
Rather than trying to explain roundabouts to someone, just send them to the Roundabout Capital of the Universe (Carmel, IN) and have them drive around town for a week. They'll learn in a hurry (if they don't get hospitalized for vertigo first). :)