Penn State: the university's penalties

[txstateends]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/college-sports/headlines/20120723-penn-state-fined-60-million-all-wins-from-1998-2011-vacated.ece

* $60 million in fines
* All wins 1998-2011 to be forfeited (112 in all; Paterno will lose top spot in winning records)
* No post-season for next 4 years
* Scholarships capped to 20 fewer than normal amount, for 4 years
* 5 years probation
* Any current/incoming football player is free to transfer to another college/university
* No sharing of bowl revenue from Big Ten during 4-year post-season ban

I haven't seen anything this bad since SMU in the 1980s.

[agentsteel53]

SMU had their entire 1987 season eliminated. 

Penn State, instead of having 11 years of retroactive "oh yeah that never really happened", should have been given 11 years of no games in the future.

besides, it would be an oddly appropriate summary of the football-industrial complex to feature, on top of the Division I Wins leader board, a man who willfully harbored a child rapist.

[Mr_Northside]

Penn State, instead of having 11 years of retroactive "oh yeah that never really happened", should have been given 11 years of no games in the future.

That would have had a rather horrible effect on the economy of the State College area...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/michael_rosenberg/07/19/penn-state-death-penalty/index.html?hpt=hp_t1  -- I thought this article was well-written, and mostly agree with it.

All that said, I have no sympathy for Penn State and what they're getting for their non-handling of the situation for years.

[agentsteel53]

football is a harsh mistress.

may it go the way of boxing, hot on the heels of "christians vs. lions" as a bizarre sideshow of a less sentient time.

[kkt]

I don't think it's an excessive penalty at all.  All the way up, officials knew child rape was going on.  Some (Paterno) did the minimum low-key reporting they thought they had to in order to avoid prosecution, others didn't even do that.  Seeing that a child rapist was stopped and prosecuted should have commanded the same "must win" attitude that won them all those football games.

[realjd]

I've never understood the vacated wins nonsense. It seems meaningless.

[Brandon]

IMHO, a percentage of the ticket sales and ad revenue should go into a fund for these kids for the next 40 to 50 years.  Say, 50% or more of revenues.

[J N Winkler]

I don't agree with the penalty.

*  It smacks of collective punishment:  the fans suffer for the crimes of a few, who are now dead, in jail, or facing massive civil lawsuits

*  Vacating past football victories amounts to rewriting history, which I disagree with in principle

*  Penn State as an institution will face massive civil judgments as a result of knowingly harboring a child sex abuser for over a decade--students at the school do not need to have the NCAA piling on as well (yes, football programs are supposed to be financially ringfenced, but in reality the school as a whole depends on the boat-floating effects of the football program)

*  The penalty was arrived at without anything resembling due process, in an apparent effort to bolster an unconvincing impression that the NCAA is serious about correcting sports-related abuses at its member institutions

[corco]

I don't agree with the penalty.

*  It smacks of collective punishment:  the fans suffer for the crimes of a few, who are now dead, in jail, or facing massive civil lawsuits

*  Vacating past football victories amounts to rewriting history, which I disagree with in principle

*  Penn State as an institution will face massive civil judgments as a result of knowingly harboring a child sex abuser for over a decade--students at the school do not need to have the NCAA piling on as well (yes, football programs are supposed to be financially ringfenced, but in reality the school as a whole depends on the boat-floating effects of the football program)

*  The penalty was arrived at without anything resembling due process, in an apparent effort to bolster an unconvincing impression that the NCAA is serious about correcting sports-related abuses at its member institutions
I don't agree with the penalty.

*  It smacks of collective punishment:  the fans suffer for the crimes of a few, who are now dead, in jail, or facing massive civil lawsuits

*  Vacating past football victories amounts to rewriting history, which I disagree with in principle

*  Penn State as an institution will face massive civil judgments as a result of knowingly harboring a child sex abuser for over a decade--students at the school do not need to have the NCAA piling on as well (yes, football programs are supposed to be financially ringfenced, but in reality the school as a whole depends on the boat-floating effects of the football program)

*  The penalty was arrived at without anything resembling due process, in an apparent effort to bolster an unconvincing impression that the NCAA is serious about correcting sports-related abuses at its member institutions

I agree with this completely- there's all sorts of innocent people who are going to be affected by this punishment. Those businesses in State College that depend on football fans visiting didn't do anything wrong, and students at the university will likely in some way be affected by those massive fines, as I'm sure the university will attempt to recoup some of that lost revenue by increasing tuition/fees on students.

Psychologically, the completely innocent people left are the ones who deserve to have a competitive football team more than anyone- they've had their good names tarnished without  doing anything wrong. I know I'll be rooting hard for Penn State for years to come now (except when they play Ohio State), because those people left need something to lift their spirits.

[agentsteel53]

*  It smacks of collective punishment:  the fans suffer for the crimes of a few, who are now dead, in jail, or facing massive civil lawsuits

I don't really think that "having a competitive football team to root for" is a protected right.  to take that away from the fans does not count as punishment.

[J N Winkler]

Indeed there is no such de jure right.  But there is also a question of fairness.  The coverup was so thorough the fans had no reason to suspect anything was going on, so they could not have knowingly acquiesced in the abuse.  Before all of this came to light, Paterno had accumulated a reputation not just as the winningest coach in college football history, but also for running a clean program whose fundamental principle was that the football players would actually leave college with a real college education.  The fans had every reason to believe they were supporting a program that was run with integrity.

One of the principles of equity is that a party that acts in entire good faith is held harmless, to the extent practically possible, when another party must be punished for gross misdeeds.  The NCAA sanction fails to observe this rule.

Aside from the fans, this decision redounds to the disadvantage of people who have no direct ties to the football program.  Corco has already quoted the examples of businesses which depend on the foot traffic generated by football games, and students with a vested interest in their university remaining financially unencumbered.  But there are other parties who suffer, such as users of the university library who may have gone to just one football game in their entire undergraduate career but who benefit from the donations for building improvement, collection acquisition, etc. which a successful football program makes easier to pull in.

[kkt]

It's normal for there to be consequences for innocent parties when a guilty party is punished.  The guilty party may have a spouse, kids, parents, a workplace that depends on them.  It's unfortunate, but if we had to spare the innocent in all cases, nobody would ever be put in prison or charged severe fines.

[BigMattFromTexas]

I think that they're lucky they didn't get the death penalty. I do however find it sad that Paterno's legacy gets slaughtered just like that.
As far as the wins vacated, those wins are always going to be wins. They fought for them, and won. That's something you can take away, but never really take from someone.
BigMatt

[bugo]

I think that they're lucky they didn't get the death penalty. I do however find it sad that Paterno's legacy gets slaughtered just like that.
As far as the wins vacated, those wins are always going to be wins. They fought for them, and won. That's something you can take away, but never really take from someone.
BigMatt

You're saying that it's OK to break the rules.  Grow up.

[BigMattFromTexas]

I didn't say that? I said that the victories they earned will always be in their hearts. And it's sad that his legacy of winning is shattered. In no way have I said that it's OK to break any rules. It's not like it's the situation with SMU, where players were payed or anything.
Playing sports all my life, I know no one can take that actual feeling from you. I honestly don't see how "...it's OK to break rules." came from what I said.
BigMatt

[Alps]

I didn't say that? I said that the victories they earned will always be in their hearts. And it's sad that his legacy of winning is shattered. In no way have I said that it's OK to break any rules. It's not like it's the situation with SMU, where players were payed or anything.
Playing sports all my life, I know no one can take that actual feeling from you. I honestly don't see how "...it's OK to break rules." came from what I said.
BigMatt

The crime he committed of not reporting a felony started in 1998. Therefore, he should have been in jail from that time and not coaching.

[J N Winkler]

It's normal for there to be consequences for innocent parties when a guilty party is punished.  The guilty party may have a spouse, kids, parents, a workplace that depends on them.  It's unfortunate, but if we had to spare the innocent in all cases, nobody would ever be put in prison or charged severe fines.

This comparison doesn't fit, for two reasons.  First, the examples you mention (spouse, children, etc.) usually have a fairly close relationship to the offender, and thus are aware of their collateral liability for his misdeeds if they are not in fact an accessory to them.  Second, the courts administer punishment after due process, which has not occurred in this case.

It has been suggested in the media that the NCAA imposed these sanctions specifically to show that there is no such thing as a football program which is "too big to fail."  This is not just a troubling hint that the decision was made on the basis of a post-2007 cliché; it is also a suggestion that the NCAA itself is now too big not to regulate.

[agentsteel53]

due process is a requisite of criminal sanctions, but what happened to Penn State was the equivalent of getting fired from one's job. 

if I were found to harbor, and cover up for, a child rapist, I'd expect my boss to fire me!

[BigMattFromTexas]

I understand that he was guilty, and the crime outweighs the good, but strictly coaching wise, he was good. His judgement wasn't. My main point was just the fact that the wins the *players* accomplished, can't fully be taken away from the *players*, themselves.
BigMatt

[Alps]

I understand that he was guilty, and the crime outweighs the good, but strictly coaching wise, he was good. His judgement wasn't. My main point was just the fact that the wins the *players* accomplished, can't fully be taken away from the *players*, themselves.
BigMatt

I agree with that point. The players didn't do anything wrong, and they will have their trophies and their memories and photos, news stories, etc. They, and those who played against them, know the games happened. I am glad that the record books are no longer tainted by this guy who clearly just stuck around to break a record. I hate when people retire one game after a record (paging Trevor Hoffman) and love when they no longer hold that record (thanks, Mariano Rivera).

[on_wisconsin]

Penn State got what was coming to them. There is NO excuse for what happened there in the last 15 years. NONE! In my personal opinion, the Big Ten should/ should've dropped Penn State from the conference and pick up one of the universities that 'lost out' to Neb two years ago.
I'm saying this a life long resident of Big Ten country who loves this conference and hates seeing one of its members give it such a black eye.

[bugo]

They should have shut down the football team for 10 years.  The NCAA sucks.  First, they let Cam Newton play when it was obvious that he was ineligible, and now this.  Teams are getting the message that they can cheat and get away with it.  It's setting a bad precedent.

[hbelkins]

I completely disagree with the NCAA sanctions, because this was not something that comes under the NCAA's purview. There were no recruiting violations, no academic fraud and no improper benefits. This is a matter for criminal and civil courts to decide.

The only thing I can compare this to would be the state taking away the license of a university hospital because a child molester was one of the physicians or medical school professors.

Besides, everything was based on the Louis Freeh investigation, and there was an incident when he was FBI director, of which I cannot remember the details, that destroyed any credibility that he has.

And the NCAA has never recognized due process. It acts as police, judge, jury and executioner. Once it makes an allegation of a violation such as improper benefits to recruits or players, there is no real opportunity to fight the allegation.

[NE2]

But the NCAA is a private organization, so they can do whatever they want in your small-government utopia.

[on_wisconsin]

AARoads: The only place you will see a college football team compared to a large hospital.