I-49 in Arkansas

[sparker]

That's been me, and I didn't mean that I-49 goes to Winnipeg, but that it's part of the hourglass-shaped corridor (the "Winnie-Minnie-New-Hou") that looks to be (when completed) central North America's main north-south interstate system of the future.

And what's wrong with I-55 and the Avenue of the Saints (from New Orleans to Minneapolis/Winnipeg)? It doesn't pass through the area that the promoters of this new route live in?

Sounds like the focus of this particular PR flack is centered around Kansas City, the "cinch" point of the so-called "hourglass".  If the focus were the entire state of Missouri, then the AOS/I-55 corridor might get a reference -- but that doesn't seem to be the case, at least from what I've seen & read referring to I-49 publicity efforts.  Obviously, there's a conflation of I-49 with I-29 and, to a lesser degree, I-35 north of KC; this sort of thing is a common occurrence when commercial interests start touting a corridor project (making it seem like it's more comprehensive than it really is).  In this case, the goal seems to be to convince commercial users to funnel onto I-49 from the entire upper Midwest, including the Canadian plains provinces.  If such efforts can translate into increased support from various interests regarding the need to complete the I-49 corridor, then PR efforts will have been valid -- if a bit overarching at times.

[bugo]

That's because the two main schools (UT and A&M) limit enrollment to the top 10% of graduating classes and there's a massive surplus of students in regard to colleges in Texas. The UA recognized this early on and offered in-state tuition to Texas students. (Oklahoma does the same and has a huge Texas contingent too.) I think Texas students may outnumber Arkansas students.

There's a reason they call the University of Oklahoma the "University of Texas at Norman". During most seasons, there are more players for OU from Texas than from any other state, including Oklahoma. In some seasons, over half the players are Texans.

[Scott5114]

And there's often as many Texas plates as Oklahoma ones in Norman, too.

[I-39]

Why not just toll the whole section between Alma and Texarkana to get the dang thing built? I'd be all in favor of that at this point.

Because as sparker and so many others have stated, "It could be easily shunpiked". I emailed ArDOT's Public Information Office not too long ago, and this is what they said:

Hello,

I am contacting ArDOT for information regarding tolling within the state.

I am an avid highway lover and I follow information regarding projects across the state. I live in Fort Smith, and with that, I follow closely the project of I-49 and I know there is a shortage of funds for this project. I have a simple question: Why hasn't Arkansas — or rather — ArDOT considered tolling heavily traveled corridors of the state? I know there was an intuitive to toll I-40, and potenientally I-630. Why are we not taking advantage of high traffic areas and charging as such? Surely, we would have more money for projects around the state, no? Back to I-49, is this corridor eventually going to get a bridge tolling system for a revenue stream? It's hard to see such a great state struggle to get some really great projects finished. Did you know that I-49 goes from Louisiana to Canada? We (as I hear it) are the last and unfinished link for the corridor.

Thank you,

Trenton

Hi Trenton-

Yes, we have studied tolls in Arkansas, however we have determined that not enough folks would use it to pay for the construction. And right now, we cannot toll an existing interstate highway.

Thank you for contacting us!

- Danny

That's utterly ridiculous. How in the heck are they going to pay for I-49 between Alma and Texarkana if they can't toll? And how could it be easily shunkpiked. Remember, we are talking about building the entire section here, not just the Arkansas River bridge.

[Life in Paradise]

Even if the tolls don't pay fully for the road, it will at least pay for part of the cost of the road.  That is going to be one real expensive stretch of road to build.  The nearest mostly freeway stretch is well over a hundred miles in either direction.  That is a lot of extra gas and time that could be saved for all those trucks that would use that route up towards/back from Kansas City and Omaha way.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

That's utterly ridiculous. How in the heck are they going to pay for I-49 between Alma and Texarkana if they can't toll? And how could it be easily shunkpiked. Remember, we are talking about building the entire section here, not just the Arkansas River bridge.

If I understand correctly, there is US 71 and other highways that (a road-smart motorist) could be utilized to shunpike I-49 tolls.

*I was trying to find a quote for Sparker himself that I had read related to shunpiking tolls... just trying to cite sources

[Life in Paradise]

That's utterly ridiculous. How in the heck are they going to pay for I-49 between Alma and Texarkana if they can't toll? And how could it be easily shunkpiked. Remember, we are talking about building the entire section here, not just the Arkansas River bridge.

If I understand correctly, there is US 71 and other highways that (a road-smart motorist) could be utilized to shunpike I-49 tolls.

*I was trying to find a quote for Sparker himself that I had read related to shunpiking tolls... just trying to cite sources

You are correct in that US 71 is there, but you would have to be an expert shunpiker for that since much of those roads are slow winding roads between DeQueen and Mansfield.  No trucker in his right mind is going to choose that over a straight freeway.

[cjk374]

That's utterly ridiculous. How in the heck are they going to pay for I-49 between Alma and Texarkana if they can't toll? And how could it be easily shunkpiked. Remember, we are talking about building the entire section here, not just the Arkansas River bridge.

If I understand correctly, there is US 71 and other highways that (a road-smart motorist) could be utilized to shunpike I-49 tolls.

*I was trying to find a quote for Sparker himself that I had read related to shunpiking tolls... just trying to cite sources

You are correct in that US 71 is there, but you would have to be an expert shunpiker for that since much of those roads are slow winding roads between DeQueen and Mansfield.  No trucker in his right mind is going to choose that over a straight freeway.

Truckers have driven that road for a long time. They know it well. They will save money any way they can.

Car drivers will want to save money even moreso. They will shunpike for sure.

[Bobby5280]

It's likely that I-49 would have to consume the exiting US-71 highway on those mountainous segments between Texarkana and Fort Smith. I don't know if this is necessarily a hard bound rule, but generally speaking any US highway is not routed onto toll roads. It's that way here in Oklahoma and just about everywhere else in the country. In Texas there are toll roads where the actual US highway is routed onto the frontage roads.

With that being said, if I-49 was built as a toll road between Fort Smith and Texarkana the "free" US-71 route would have to be preserved. Based on the preliminary alignments I've seen it looks like the old US-71 would remain in a lot of places. But it doesn't look that way in the mountainous segments.

[Road Hog]

Yeah, the segment of I-49 between Y City and Acorn would probably have to remain free for that reason. But I'd hope whatever toll they adopt would be reasonable. A few years ago, for example, the toll on I-44 between OKC and Tulsa was $4 one way.

[Wayward Memphian]

The U of A has a huge percentage of people from Texas...

I find this interesting, because I hear so much shit about Arkansas' colleges and universities. I would think Texas would have more to do and better colleges and universities.

That's because the two main schools (UT and A&M) limit enrollment to the top 10% of graduating classes and there's a massive surplus of students in regard to colleges in Texas. The UA recognized this early on and offered in-state tuition to Texas students. (Oklahoma does the same and has a huge Texas contingent too.) I think Texas students may outnumber Arkansas students.

You don't have to think it, it's true. The U of A had a record number of incoming in state students in 2017. It was outnumbered  by incoming Texas kids. That's why there's huge increase in Sorority House building. It seems there's way more girls doing this, but that is just my observation.  There's a huge connection between NWA and the Metroplex with it being the largest alumni base outside of Arkansas. Some of these kids have a family connection to Arkansas or the U of A as that was the place many left to find greener pastures. It just so happens NWA is a pretty green pasture these days. I am shocked Southwest Air hasn't got a clue yet and started XNA to Hobby and Love flights

I think they vastly underestimate the usage a Turnpike from Ft. Smith to Texarkana would see and only a subset of locals would shunpike

The traffic count on I-49 between Alma and NWA is steadily increasing. Anyone that drives it knows this and they know there's more and more through traffic that's not local.

The State leg needs to get off it's ass and allow state build toll roads and get Ft. Smith to Texarkana blanking done. The traffic count will soar when it becomes common knowledge that there is a limited access expressway through Western Arkansas. It will support itself with the tolls, I have no doubt. Leave old 71 for the locals and hay haulers that don't want to pay but everyone else would rejoice at going  75mph  down the divided highway that would rival the scenic Alma to Fayetteville stretch whether it's free or tolled . They could  get by with charging 10 bucks each way (5 bucks north of Mena and 5 bucks south) Hell I'd fork over 6 or 7 easily as long as it's all electronic.

It'll work to go across North Arkansas as well. Keep US 412 free from Harrison to Springdale but from Harrison, build a Turnpike to Walnut Ridge. It'll exploded with traffic especially if they extended I-555 to US 67/I-57. Thsee two turnpikes would reduce  lots of pressure on the Little Rock area. I know I'd go across to my trips to NEA and Memphis this way  vs using I-40 between Memphis and Little Rock.

My only concern is that if the did fast track I-49 by using tolls,.they better get ready to upgrade US 270 from Y City to Hot Springs.

My Nephew and some of his group of friends.went to OBU for school. They always drove to Little Rock and then to Arkadelphia. Most everyone do this when going  between NWA and that area of Arkansas. It's like the routing folks take between NWA and NEA by going down and cutting across at Conway to Beebe on US 64 and vice versa.

If they put this on the ballot, to eatablishe a Turnpike system connecting Arkansas corner to corner (US 71, US 412, US 82, US 67) It'll pass. They could even team up with TN and/or Missisipping for a couple of new toll Missississippi River Bridges. I still think the I-69 bridge is redundant considering g the new bridge 30 mile south that could be used for I-69.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

The U of A has a huge percentage of people from Texas...

I find this interesting, because I hear so much shit about Arkansas' colleges and universities. I would think Texas would have more to do and better colleges and universities.

That's because the two main schools (UT and A&M) limit enrollment to the top 10% of graduating classes and there's a massive surplus of students in regard to colleges in Texas. The UA recognized this early on and offered in-state tuition to Texas students. (Oklahoma does the same and has a huge Texas contingent too.) I think Texas students may outnumber Arkansas students.

You don't have to think it, it's true. The U of A had a record number on incoming in state students in 2017. It was outnumbered  by incoming Texas kids. That's why there's huge increase in Sorority House Building. It seems there's way more girls doing this  but that is just my observation.  There's a huge connection between NWA and the Metroplex with it being the largest alumni base outside of Arkansas. Some of these kids have a family connection to Arkansas or the U of A as that was the place many left to find greener pastures. It just so happens NWA is a pretty green pasture these days. I am shocked Southwest Air hasn't got a clue yet and started XNA to Hobby and Love flights

I think they vastly underestimate the usage a Turnpike from Ft. Smith to Texarkana would see and only a subset of locals would shunpike

The traffic count on I-49 between Alma and NWA is steadily increasing. Anyone that drives it knows this and they know there's more and more through traffic that's not local.

The State leg needs to get off it's ass and allow state built toll roads and get Ft. Smith to Texarkana blanking done. The traffic count will soar when it becomes common knowledge that it is limited access expressway through Western Arkansas. It will support itself with the tolls, I have no doubt. Leave old 71 for the locals and hay haulers that don't want to pay but everyone else wod rejoice at going  75mph  down the divided highway whether it's free or tolled . They could problem get by with charging 10 bucks each way (5 bucks north of Mena and 5 bucks south) Hell I'd fork over 6 or 7 easily as long as it's all electronic.

It'll work to go across North Arkansas as well. Keep US 412 free from Harrison to Springdale but from Harrison, build a Turnpike to Walnut Ridge. It'll exploded with traffic especially if they extended I-555 to US 67/I-57. Thsee two turnpikes would reduce  lots of pressure on the Little Rock area. I know I'd go across to my trips to NEA and Memphis this way  vs using I-40 between Memphis and Little Rock.

My only concern is that if the did fast track I-49 by using tolls,.they better get ready to upgrade US 270 from Y City to Hot Springs.

My Nephew and some of his group of friends.went to OBU for school. They always drove to Little Rock and then to Arkadelphia. Most everyone do this when going  between NWA and that area of Arkansas. It's like the routing folks take between NWA and NEA by going down and cutting across at Conway to Beebe on US 64 and vice versa.

If they put this on the ballot, to eatablishe a Turnpike system connecting Arkansas corner to corner (US 71, US 412, US 82, US 67) It'll pass. They could even team up with TN and/or Missisipping for a couple of new toll Missississippi River Bridges. I still think the I-69 bridge is redundant considering g the new bridge 30 mile south that could be used for I-69.

Would it help if I asked for an AADT map for I-49? They have been widening I-49 and some surface streets like crazy!

[Tomahawkin]

WaywardMemphian. That is a damn good point. OT, I 30 through Little Rock is hell due to the lack of planning and sprawl...

[bugo]

It's likely that I-49 would have to consume the exiting US-71 highway on those mountainous segments between Texarkana and Fort Smith. I don't know if this is necessarily a hard bound rule, but generally speaking any US highway is not routed onto toll roads. It's that way here in Oklahoma and just about everywhere else in the country. In Texas there are toll roads where the actual US highway is routed onto the frontage roads.

With that being said, if I-49 was built as a toll road between Fort Smith and Texarkana the "free" US-71 route would have to be preserved. Based on the preliminary alignments I've seen it looks like the old US-71 would remain in a lot of places. But it doesn't look that way in the mountainous segments.

No. I-49 will not be built over US 71 except for the section through Foran Gap between "Y" City and Acorn (The backwards "S" in northern Polk County that is visible on maps). In Polk County, for example, I-49 will run east of US 71, several miles east in places. It won't serve towns like Hatfield or Cove directly and US 71 will still be the main way to get to those towns. There will be a long stretch south of Mena through the Ouachita National Forest with no exits and no access. It should be a beautiful drive.

US 71 would be a very poor shunpike. Travel time from Ft Smith to Texarkana would likely be nearly double what travel time would be on I-49. If they toll it, towns like Mena will still get tons of truck traffic, which getting rid of is one of the main reasons for building I-49 in the first place.

[bugo]

There are tons of Razorback fans in the Dallas area. Some of them grew up in Arkansas but moved to Texas and some of them are native Texans who went to the U of A.

[bugo]

Here are some maps courtesy of AHTD. The maps aren't 100% accurate as they don't show an exit at AR 8 near the Mena airport. Who knows what other errors they contain, if any. These maps show the proposed exit numbers. They are several years old so some plans might have changed since they were published.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

Here are some maps courtesy of AHTD. The maps aren't 100% accurate as they don't show an exit at AR 8 near the Mena airport. Who knows what other errors they contain, if any. These maps show the proposed exit numbers. They are several years old so some plans might have changed since they were published.
[...]

Was there a key for the map? I understand the green and red, but the grey?

[bugo]

Not that I know of.

[sparker]

That's utterly ridiculous. How in the heck are they going to pay for I-49 between Alma and Texarkana if they can't toll? And how could it be easily shunkpiked. Remember, we are talking about building the entire section here, not just the Arkansas River bridge.

If I understand correctly, there is US 71 and other highways that (a road-smart motorist) could be utilized to shunpike I-49 tolls.

*I was trying to find a quote for Sparker himself that I had read related to shunpiking tolls... just trying to cite sources

Well, thanks for the cite thought -- but even I can't recall exactly what I said at any given point without slogging through my posts.  But regarding shunpiking -- even if I-49 will sit atop US 71 near Y City, it would be quite simple to just avoid the whole shooting match through this area by using US 59 north into OK and then US 271 back into AR at Fort Smith -- with similar overall mileage, and considerably more benign terrain (this is the route that the KCS RR main line uses to avoid the Ouachita summit along the US 71 alignment).  If not for having to involve OK in the project, that would have been a nice little alternate path for I-49; when going & coming from the north, it's my usual route from the DeQueen, AR/Broken Bow. OK area (where many of my relatives are centered). 

[rickmastfan67]

Here are some maps courtesy of AHTD. The maps aren't 100% accurate as they don't show an exit at AR 8 near the Mena airport. Who knows what other errors they contain, if any. These maps show the proposed exit numbers. They are several years old so some plans might have changed since they were published.
[...]

Was there a key for the map? I understand the green and red, but the grey?

I'm guessing 'state highway expressway'.

[Bobby5280]

I-49 will not be built over US 71 except for the section through Foran Gap between "Y" City and Acorn (The backwards "S" in northern Polk County that is visible on maps).

Here's one pretty easy, obvious idea: Build I-49 between Fort Smith and Texarkana as two different turnpike segments separated by a "free" segment through the Foran Gap. There's nothing wrong with doing that. And it should be easier to accomplish using electronic tolling. Here in Oklahoma I-44 has 4 different "free" segments (one from the Red River to US-70/Randlett exit, one thru Lawton-Fort Sill, one thru OKC and one thru Tulsa).

IMHO, I think the I-49 corridor would attract a lot of new long distance traffic once the gap between Fort Smith and Texarkana is filled in with completed Interstate. By that time the Bella Vista Bypass would be finished. The I-49 ICC in Shreveport would probably be well on its way to completion too. The connector thru Lafayette might be well under way along with the rest of I-49 South. Either way, a toll road facility could get built many years faster than one funded solely via the trickle of gasoline taxes.

[bugo]

That's utterly ridiculous. How in the heck are they going to pay for I-49 between Alma and Texarkana if they can't toll? And how could it be easily shunkpiked. Remember, we are talking about building the entire section here, not just the Arkansas River bridge.

If I understand correctly, there is US 71 and other highways that (a road-smart motorist) could be utilized to shunpike I-49 tolls.

*I was trying to find a quote for Sparker himself that I had read related to shunpiking tolls... just trying to cite sources

Well, thanks for the cite thought -- but even I can't recall exactly what I said at any given point without slogging through my posts.  But regarding shunpiking -- even if I-49 will sit atop US 71 near Y City, it would be quite simple to just avoid the whole shooting match through this area by using US 59 north into OK and then US 271 back into AR at Fort Smith -- with similar overall mileage, and considerably more benign terrain (this is the route that the KCS RR main line uses to avoid the Ouachita summit along the US 71 alignment).  If not for having to involve OK in the project, that would have been a nice little alternate path for I-49; when going & coming from the north, it's my usual route from the DeQueen, AR/Broken Bow. OK area (where many of my relatives are centered). 

It's 8 miles longer to go through Poteau but it is a far better route. The traffic counts are far lower (especially truck traffic) and you can legally go 65 in Oklahoma. It also avoids Scott County, where I was once harassed by the sheriff's department when I wasn't doing anything wrong. When going between Mena and Fort Smith, I always go that way.

Of course, the best route through Oklahoma is US 59 to OK 112 to US 271...taking OK 112 saves about 5 1/2 miles over staying on US 271. I'm surprised they haven't rerouted 271 to follow 112 instead of following 59 to 9.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

Of course, the best route through Oklahoma is US 59 to OK 112 to US 271...taking OK 112 saves about 5 1/2 miles over staying on US 271. I'm surprised they haven't rerouted 271 to follow 112 instead of following 59 to 9.

Geography or (local/national) political reasoning?

[bugo]

Of course, the best route through Oklahoma is US 59 to OK 112 to US 271...taking OK 112 saves about 5 1/2 miles over staying on US 271. I'm surprised they haven't rerouted 271 to follow 112 instead of following 59 to 9.

Geography or (local/national) political reasoning?

Elaborate.

[sparker]

What's notable is that the US 59/271 western expressway bypass of Poteau dumps NB traffic directly onto OK 112; US 59/271 is a TOTSO (there's an interchange at that point).  This tends to indicate that ODOT has calculated that a sizeable portion of traffic is heading to or from Ft. Smith; that interchange configuration merely reflects that.  But US 271, combined with US 59 or OK 9, serves two towns, Panama and Spiro, that are bypassed by 112.  There's likely enough local political clout between those towns to keep 271 where it is.  Doesn't look like there's any topographical issues affecting OK 112 either; it more or less traces the Arkansas and Missouri RR line (former SLSF/"Frisco") that extends from the KCS line at Poteau north through Ft. Smith, Fayetteville, and Gateway, AR, and interchanging with the BNSF main line at Monett, MO.  RR's tend to locate the path of least resistance and lay tracks there, and it looks like OK 112 does as well.