Title: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Post by: US71 on May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/u-s-legislators-look-to-designate-part-of-highway-412-as-future-interstate/) as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.
I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .
US 412 (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/u-s-legislators-look-to-designate-part-of-highway-412-as-future-interstate/) as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.
I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Finrod on May 22, 2021, 03:13:59 PM
Post by: Finrod on May 22, 2021, 03:13:59 PM
Does anyone know how close the Cimarron Turnpike is to interstate standards? That would be the segment from I-35 to Tulsa.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on May 22, 2021, 03:21:42 PM
Post by: US 89 on May 22, 2021, 03:21:42 PM
Quote from: Finrod on May 22, 2021, 03:13:59 PM
Does anyone know how close the Cimarron Turnpike is to interstate standards? That would be the segment from I-35 to Tulsa.
Most of the Cimarron Turnpike has a cable barrier (https://goo.gl/maps/pzKuD7qNSo6BMbA87) or even a grass (https://goo.gl/maps/jVssjEnbAbsdVUVx7) median with no left shoulder.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Finrod on May 22, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Post by: Finrod on May 22, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Would the spur to Stillwater get a 3DI? At 8 miles it's longer than I-865 in Indiana, and has a half exit three-quarters of a mile from its west end, giving it half an exit more than I-865.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
Quote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/u-s-legislators-look-to-designate-part-of-highway-412-as-future-interstate/) as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.
I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .
A Tulsa to NWA corridor is going to be an increasingly important link as NWA continues to grow. Having it as an Interstate designation provides a motivation to do something about the gap between the Cherokee Turnpike and I-49. Once you have an Interstate between Tulsa and NWA, extending it west along the road out of Tulsa to I-35 makes a whole lot of sense.
I'm all for it.
Quote from: Finrod on May 22, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Would the spur to Stillwater get a 3DI? At 8 miles it's longer than I-865 in Indiana, and has a half exit three-quarters of a mile from its west end, giving it half an exit more than I-865.
It could get a 3di, but don't hold your breath. OTA operates a similar spur from the H.E. Bailey Turnpike in Blanchard and Newcastle. Despite spurring off from a pre-existing Interstate and being Interstate-grade enough to carry an 80 mph speed limit, it is just called "H.E. Bailey Spur" and OTA has never applied for an Interstate designation for it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Lyon Wonder on May 22, 2021, 04:45:51 PM
Post by: Lyon Wonder on May 22, 2021, 04:45:51 PM
IMO, US 412 should also be upgraded as an eastern extension of I-155 in TN too between Dyersburg and I-40 in Jackson. US 412 in TN and the above proposed upgrade between I-35 and I-49 would be the easiest sections of US 412 to upgrade to interstate standard anyway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:56:11 PM
Post by: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:56:11 PM
Disagree with your last part. An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on May 22, 2021, 05:40:42 PM
Post by: US71 on May 22, 2021, 05:40:42 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:56:11 PM
Disagree with your last part. An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.
But there is a proposed /under construction 412 bypass of which AR 612 is a part.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 07:42:03 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 07:42:03 PM
The only sensible number for this would be I-46. (48 would work too, but it will have a short concurrency with 44, so 48 is too high, and 42 is taken)
Title: US-412(OK)
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 22, 2021, 08:38:20 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 22, 2021, 08:38:20 PM
It looks like Inhofe is trying to work with Arkansas to get an interstate designation for 412 from I-35 to I-49. Lots of upgrades are needed and hopefully they can remove the tolls.
(https://tulsaworld.com/community/sandsprings/news/inhofe-others-push-to-make-stretch-of-u-s-412-an-interstate/article_0ac86114-bab0-11eb-ad5f-17d355c94a0e.html)
- read more here: https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/inhofe-arkansas-senators-push-to-get-interstate-designation-for-stretch-of-u-s-412/article_b9bf9be2-ba65-11eb-8c81-e3c69146bc72.html
(https://tulsaworld.com/community/sandsprings/news/inhofe-others-push-to-make-stretch-of-u-s-412-an-interstate/article_0ac86114-bab0-11eb-ad5f-17d355c94a0e.html)
QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY — Federal legislation was introduced Friday to designate U.S. 412 running through Oklahoma and Arkansas as a future interstate.
The measure would give the designation to the stretch of U.S. 412 from Interstate 35 in Noble County to Interstate 49 in Springdale, Arkansas.
It was introduced by U.S. Sens. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., John Boozman, R-Ark., and Tom Cotton, R-Ark.
"Our interstate system is the lifeblood of Oklahoma's economy and provides the network for companies to bring materials into our critical industries, for businesses to locate in areas convenient for consumers and for commuters to get to work and school safely and reliably," Inhofe said.
- read more here: https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/inhofe-arkansas-senators-push-to-get-interstate-designation-for-stretch-of-u-s-412/article_b9bf9be2-ba65-11eb-8c81-e3c69146bc72.html
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 22, 2021, 08:51:58 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 22, 2021, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:56:11 PMThis is going to have to happen one way or another be it an interstate designation or not. Tulsa needs to be connected to I-49(NWA) with a fully controlled access facility. Arkansas is seriously dropping the ball on this.
Disagree with your last part. An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.
As for the question why is it needed, why is any interstate designation needed? I've long thought this to be a no brainer. I created a thread in Oklahoma section for it though not sure if it is needed or not. I suppose if this gains traction OK development of it can be tracked there. Arkansas will have the most challenging segments to construct. I'm excited for this.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: wxfree on May 22, 2021, 10:04:33 PM
Post by: wxfree on May 22, 2021, 10:04:33 PM
I propose that it be designated I-494.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on May 22, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 22, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: US 89 on May 22, 2021, 03:21:42 PMThe design with the cable barrier median is likely what the remainder will get, and it will be sufficient enough for designation. The I-44 extension to Texas along the Bailey Turnpike had the raised grass median design in areas remaining until recently replaced with cable barrier.Quote from: Finrod on May 22, 2021, 03:13:59 PM
Does anyone know how close the Cimarron Turnpike is to interstate standards? That would be the segment from I-35 to Tulsa.
Most of the Cimarron Turnpike has a cable barrier (https://goo.gl/maps/pzKuD7qNSo6BMbA87) or even a grass (https://goo.gl/maps/jVssjEnbAbsdVUVx7) median with no left shoulder.
Title: Re: US-412(OK)
Post by: In_Correct on May 23, 2021, 12:01:46 AM
Post by: In_Correct on May 23, 2021, 12:01:46 AM
That is good news. Hopefully they can keep the Tolls.
Title: Re: US-412(OK)
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 12:18:26 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 12:18:26 AM
^^^ interstates should have no tolls with little to no exceptions. Tolls would defeat the entire purpose of luring development with the advantage of having an interstate designation.
The tolls need to be removed but honestly I see that has a little to no chance of happening. IMO, unfortunately, this current admin is likely to remove the requirement for no tolls on interstates so you should be happy. Im not.
The tolls need to be removed but honestly I see that has a little to no chance of happening. IMO, unfortunately, this current admin is likely to remove the requirement for no tolls on interstates so you should be happy. Im not.
Title: Re: US-412(OK)
Post by: sprjus4 on May 23, 2021, 12:43:55 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 23, 2021, 12:43:55 AM
^
I think in this case, given the roads are already existing as toll roads, it's not a problem. It's not like they are proposing a new toll on an existing free highway.
I think in this case, given the roads are already existing as toll roads, it's not a problem. It's not like they are proposing a new toll on an existing free highway.
Title: Re: US-412(OK)
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 12:46:03 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 12:46:03 AM
^^^ not all of the road.
Title: Re: US-412(OK)
Post by: sprjus4 on May 23, 2021, 12:59:53 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 23, 2021, 12:59:53 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 12:46:03 AMBut no new portion will be tolled. Where the toll roads already exist, they will remain. Simple.
^^^ not all of the road.
Title: Re: US-412(OK)
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 02:48:11 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 02:48:11 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 23, 2021, 12:59:53 AMFor the most part yes you are correct though I wish Oklahoma could be the anomaly.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 12:46:03 AMBut no new portion will be tolled. Where the toll roads already exist, they will remain. Simple.
^^^ not all of the road.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 23, 2021, 03:24:44 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 23, 2021, 03:24:44 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 22, 2021, 10:09:09 PMQuote from: US 89 on May 22, 2021, 03:21:42 PMThe design with the cable barrier median is likely what the remainder will get, and it will be sufficient enough for designation. The I-44 extension to Texas along the Bailey Turnpike had the raised grass median design in areas remaining until recently replaced with cable barrier.Quote from: Finrod on May 22, 2021, 03:13:59 PM
Does anyone know how close the Cimarron Turnpike is to interstate standards? That would be the segment from I-35 to Tulsa.
Most of the Cimarron Turnpike has a cable barrier (https://goo.gl/maps/pzKuD7qNSo6BMbA87) or even a grass (https://goo.gl/maps/jVssjEnbAbsdVUVx7) median with no left shoulder.
Of course, that designation was done in 1982. FHWA was a lot less of a stickler about Interstate standards back then.
Title: Re: US-412(OK)
Post by: Scott5114 on May 23, 2021, 03:38:25 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 23, 2021, 03:38:25 AM
I wouldn't expect to see the tolls go away any time soon, Interstate designation or no. I understand that the process that was undertaken the last time a toll was removed in Oklahoma, when the Chickasaw Turnpike was truncated and redesignated SH-7 Spur, was quite legally and politically convoluted, and that was with language in its bonds specifically enabling this a transfer from OTA to ODOT (no other turnpike has such language attached to it). ODOT basically required them to tear it out down to the roadbed and rebuild it before they'd accept the transfer.
Title: Re: US-412(OK)
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 01:43:35 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 23, 2021, 01:43:35 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2021, 08:40:17 AMSo when/if improvements to 412 happen related to this initiative take place in Oklahoma we should discuss those improvements in the Arkansas thread?
This is a duplicate thread.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
Post by: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on May 22, 2021, 04:45:51 PM
IMO, US 412 should also be upgraded as an eastern extension of I-155 in TN too between Dyersburg and I-40 in Jackson. US 412 in TN and the above proposed upgrade between I-35 and I-49 would be the easiest sections of US 412 to upgrade to interstate standard anyway.
US-412 is already a freeway between Dyersburg and Jackson, just not to interstate standards. It's only limitation is the exit ramps to it from I-40 at Jackson. Does the AADT really support this kind of upgrade?
Also what about US-412 to/from Kennett AR? Would ArDOT turn it south to connect Paragould, or would they run it straight to Pocahontas to reconnect at Imboden?
I have driven US-412 between Portia and Hardy many times and it is rough country to punch a freeway through and that usually means lots of money.
I don't disagree on the needed updates to US-412 around Springdale (Springdale Bypass) which are in progress. ArDOT has put in a lot of passing lanes on the route to Mountain View and updated the rest to Harrison.
But between Hardy and Imboden, get the checkbook out.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 23, 2021, 03:02:00 PM
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 23, 2021, 03:02:00 PM
Quote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/u-s-legislators-look-to-designate-part-of-highway-412-as-future-interstate/) as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.
I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .
I have posted on here for several years about how US 412 should be a continuation of I-22. Any new Bridge in Memphis should be the I-22 bridge along with I-555 with a Southern bypass of Jonesboro to meet up with an upgraded AR 226. Connect NWA with NEA without Conway/Little Rock and then to Memphis. Make the exiting part through Jonesboro a 3di to I-22 and curve it up the eastern side to Paragould. A situation not unlike Fort Smith with 549.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 23, 2021, 03:14:46 PM
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 23, 2021, 03:14:46 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 02:21:09 PMQuote from: Lyon Wonder on May 22, 2021, 04:45:51 PM
IMO, US 412 should also be upgraded as an eastern extension of I-155 in TN too between Dyersburg and I-40 in Jackson. US 412 in TN and the above proposed upgrade between I-35 and I-49 would be the easiest sections of US 412 to upgrade to interstate standard anyway.
US-412 is already a freeway between Dyersburg and Jackson, just not to interstate standards. It's only limitation is the exit ramps to it from I-40 at Jackson. Does the AADT really support this kind of upgrade?
Also what about US-412 to/from Kennett AR? Would ArDOT turn it south to connect Paragould, or would they run it straight to Pocahontas to reconnect at Imboden?
I have driven US-412 between Portia and Hardy many times and it is rough country to punch a freeway through and that usually means lots of money.
I don't disagree on the needed updates to US-412 around Springdale (Springdale Bypass) which are in progress. ArDOT has put in a lot of passing lanes on the route to Mountain View and updated the rest to Harrison.
But between Hardy and Imboden, get the checkbook out.
I would just look as US 412 and the Shared US412/US 63 as a rough template and
There aren't nearly enough passing lanes these days. They just act as a drag race to inevitably slowdown yet again behind a slow mover.
I would push to Harrison at the very least and then to Mt. Home and upgrade US 65 to the MO line. A lot of a new US 412/interstate would look like that stretch of US 65 from Harrison to the line.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
Post by: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
Quote from: Wayward Memphian on May 23, 2021, 03:02:00 PMQuote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/u-s-legislators-look-to-designate-part-of-highway-412-as-future-interstate/) as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.
I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .
I have posted on here for several years about how US 412 should be a continuation of I-22. Any new Bridge in Memphis should be the I-22 bridge along with I-555 with a Southern bypass of Jonesboro to meet up with an upgraded AR 226. Connect NWA with NEA without Conway/Little Rock and then to Memphis. Make the exiting part through Jonesboro a 3di to I-22 and curve it up the eastern side to Paragould. A situation not unlike Fort Smith with 549.
I have traveled the I-22 route many times and I do agree with the idea that I-555 is essentially a NE/SE extension of I-22.
However, my drive usually takes me to Springfield, MO and I use US-63 through West Plains & Willow Springs to get to US-60 for the 4 lane trip. (Hence my many drives through Imboden, Hardy, etc.)
Even if I was driving to/from Tulsa, I would take the Muskogee Turnpike to/from I-40, not go by way of US-412 from Memphis.
As for an idea of using the Cimmaron to Enid as a sort of extension, it looks good on paper, because it creates an alternate E-W interstate routing with a bridge at Dyersburg over the Mississippi to reach the east coast with, one that US-60 does not have today at Cairo.
I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos? I would think OKDOT would be more interested in connectivity of US-69 in the Dallas-KCMO route then be looking for another eastern gateway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 23, 2021, 06:56:08 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 23, 2021, 06:56:08 PM
Merged the threads and put them in Central States, since all but 22 miles of it is in Oklahoma at this time.
Commerce. Tulsa is a major city, and NWA is a major metro area that developed by surprise after the ink was dry on the Interstate System plans (home to Walmart and Tyson Foods, both major companies). So the motivation here is no different than that for I-11 (completing a missing link between adjacent major metros). NWA benefits by having a quicker path to the southwest and south in I-44, and a quicker path to the north and northwest via I-35. Oklahoma benefits by having more traffic passing through and by having easier access to the I-49 corridor.
Also, note that it isn't ODOT that is the big push behind this, it's the Senators. Most of the affected roadway is under OTA jurisdiction anyway.
Much of the heavy lifting is done on Oklahoma's side (four-lane ROW secured, just needs some polish by upgrading the remaining at-grades and cleaning up things like the median on the Cimarron). I'm a little surprised that Inhofe didn't get a tad more ambitious and run it as far west as US-81 in Enid. I'm also kind of surprised that Sen. James Lankford (R-OK) didn't sign on too, but he's from OKC so I guess he doesn't care about this particular project so much.
Quote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos? I would think OKDOT would be more interested in connectivity of US-69 in the Dallas-KCMO route then be looking for another eastern gateway.
Commerce. Tulsa is a major city, and NWA is a major metro area that developed by surprise after the ink was dry on the Interstate System plans (home to Walmart and Tyson Foods, both major companies). So the motivation here is no different than that for I-11 (completing a missing link between adjacent major metros). NWA benefits by having a quicker path to the southwest and south in I-44, and a quicker path to the north and northwest via I-35. Oklahoma benefits by having more traffic passing through and by having easier access to the I-49 corridor.
Also, note that it isn't ODOT that is the big push behind this, it's the Senators. Most of the affected roadway is under OTA jurisdiction anyway.
Much of the heavy lifting is done on Oklahoma's side (four-lane ROW secured, just needs some polish by upgrading the remaining at-grades and cleaning up things like the median on the Cimarron). I'm a little surprised that Inhofe didn't get a tad more ambitious and run it as far west as US-81 in Enid. I'm also kind of surprised that Sen. James Lankford (R-OK) didn't sign on too, but he's from OKC so I guess he doesn't care about this particular project so much.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: In_Correct on May 23, 2021, 10:49:29 PM
Post by: In_Correct on May 23, 2021, 10:49:29 PM
Perhaps they will proceed with the west side of it after the east side of it is upgraded.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Revive 755 on May 23, 2021, 11:15:06 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on May 23, 2021, 11:15:06 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 07:42:03 PM
The only sensible number for this would be I-46. (48 would work too, but it will have a short concurrency with 44, so 48 is too high, and 42 is taken)
While I-46 would make sense, I suspect it could - barring any duplicate state routes - anything from 46 to 58. It will probably be something that has the highest chance of messing up the grid in regards to other future expansions.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 23, 2021, 11:41:53 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 23, 2021, 11:41:53 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 23, 2021, 11:15:06 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 07:42:03 PM
The only sensible number for this would be I-46. (48 would work too, but it will have a short concurrency with 44, so 48 is too high, and 42 is taken)
While I-46 would make sense, I suspect it could - barring any duplicate state routes - anything from 46 to 58.
Ha! You think Oklahoma or Arkansas care about that? Oklahoma has three 9As and Arkansas has eight 74s!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 05:36:53 AM
Post by: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 05:36:53 AM
Quote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 05:40:42 PMQuote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:56:11 PM
Disagree with your last part. An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.
But there is a proposed /under construction 412 bypass of which AR 612 is a part.
It's not at all obvious to me why AR 612 was built. It's pretty far north of Springdale, further north of Fayetteville, and pointed further north still. I would think that the proposed Interstate ought to be headed toward the region's center of gravity, near where US 412 is now, with distribution north and south via I-49.
So, has ArDOT done any sort of feasibility study for this?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 24, 2021, 09:23:59 AM
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 24, 2021, 09:23:59 AM
Quote from: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 05:36:53 AMQuote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 05:40:42 PMQuote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:56:11 PM
Disagree with your last part. An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.
But there is a proposed /under construction 412 bypass of which AR 612 is a part.
It's not at all obvious to me why AR 612 was built. It's pretty far north of Springdale, further north of Fayetteville, and pointed further north still. I would think that the proposed Interstate ought to be headed toward the region's center of gravity, near where US 412 is now, with distribution north and south via I-49.
So, has ArDOT done any sort of feasibility study for this?
Drive US 412 through Springdale at 5pm and you'll get it.
AR 612 is the future center mass. It is essentially the Washington/Benton County line. It is where the growth from the south and north are converging and had the most open space to build it.
I'll say it again, all of this should be dedicated as an extention of I-22 from North MS.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 09:33:58 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 09:33:58 AM
I don't know why letting it stand on its own as a new number is a problem. It may well never connect to the Memphis area. Arkansas's senators support the measure, but they chose to end it at I-49 rather than try to get funding to continue it east.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: froggie on May 24, 2021, 10:16:38 AM
Post by: froggie on May 24, 2021, 10:16:38 AM
Quote from: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 05:36:53 AMQuote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 05:40:42 PMQuote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:56:11 PM
Disagree with your last part. An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.
But there is a proposed /under construction 412 bypass of which AR 612 is a part.
It's not at all obvious to me why AR 612 was built. It's pretty far north of Springdale, further north of Fayetteville, and pointed further north still. I would think that the proposed Interstate ought to be headed toward the region's center of gravity, near where US 412 is now, with distribution north and south via I-49.
So, has ArDOT done any sort of feasibility study for this?
612 is the thus-far-built part of what has for over 20 years been intended as a US 412 Springdale bypass (https://www.ardot.gov/divisions/environmental/assessments/impact-statements-eis-assesments-ea/springdale-northern-bypass-highway-412/). Though, as Scott noted, they didn't fund it east of I-49 (though 20 years ago it was proposed to do so).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: mvak36 on May 24, 2021, 11:41:52 AM
Post by: mvak36 on May 24, 2021, 11:41:52 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 09:33:58 AM
I don't know why letting it stand on its own as a new number is a problem. It may well never connect to the Memphis area. Arkansas's senators support the measure, but they chose to end it at I-49 rather than try to get funding to continue it east.
Hopefully they get earmarks or something for the part of US412 east of I-49 all the way to NE Arkansas. It doesn't have to be interstate standard but they definitely to do some sort of upgrades for that whole stretch. Some of it might be funded by the Connecting Arkansas Program (CAP2), but we won't know till they post their updated projects list.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 24, 2021, 02:11:24 PM
Post by: edwaleni on May 24, 2021, 02:11:24 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 24, 2021, 10:16:38 AMQuote from: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 05:36:53 AMQuote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 05:40:42 PMQuote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:56:11 PM
Disagree with your last part. An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.
But there is a proposed /under construction 412 bypass of which AR 612 is a part.
It's not at all obvious to me why AR 612 was built. It's pretty far north of Springdale, further north of Fayetteville, and pointed further north still. I would think that the proposed Interstate ought to be headed toward the region's center of gravity, near where US 412 is now, with distribution north and south via I-49.
So, has ArDOT done any sort of feasibility study for this?
612 is the thus-far-built part of what has for over 20 years been intended as a US 412 Springdale bypass (https://www.ardot.gov/divisions/environmental/assessments/impact-statements-eis-assesments-ea/springdale-northern-bypass-highway-412/). Though, as Scott noted, they didn't fund it east of I-49 (though 20 years ago it was proposed to do so).
AR-612 will connect with current US-412 at Old State Road 68 west of Springdale. The plan when it is funded is to continue the bypass all the way to Sonora. But they don't own any of the land yet.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 04:06:51 PM
Post by: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 04:06:51 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 24, 2021, 02:11:24 PMAR-612 will connect with current US-412 at Old State Road 68 west of Springdale. The plan when it is funded is to continue the bypass all the way to Sonora. But they don't own any of the land yet.
OK, here's the big picture, literally (https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/001966_2008.05.25_DPH_Disp_Cou.pdf). Thanks, froggie!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 24, 2021, 04:32:12 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 24, 2021, 04:32:12 PM
I agree with making US 412 a freeway/tollway combo between Interstate 44 in Tulsa and Interstate 49 in Springdale, with no at-grade intersections, and access only at interchanges. I disagree with making this corridor an Interstate Highway. It seems like overkill to me.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 05:26:23 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 05:26:23 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 24, 2021, 04:32:12 PM
I agree with making US 412 a freeway/tollway combo between Interstate 44 in Tulsa and Interstate 49 in Springdale, with no at-grade intersections, and access only at interchanges. I disagree with making this corridor an Interstate Highway. It seems like overkill to me.
"I agree with spending several billion dollars to construct an expensive bypass in a major U.S. metro area through difficult terrain and build dozens of interchanges and overpasses along several hundred miles of roadway, but buying a few thousand dollars' worth of new signs for it? That seems like overkill to me."
Literally what?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 07:52:09 PM
Post by: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 07:52:09 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 05:26:23 PMLiterally what?
Well, virtually every inch of it would be concurrent with US 412. So there's that.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 08:23:42 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 08:23:42 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on May 24, 2021, 07:52:09 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 05:26:23 PMLiterally what?
Well, virtually every inch of it would be concurrent with US 412. So there's that.
Who cares? That didn't stop I-135 from being designated over US-81.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
Post by: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
Just because it is a "future interstate" plan doesn't mean that it is going to be designed as an interstate. It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
If they want to pick an interstate route... the list is very limited as the road would be between I-40 and I-44. It can be I-46 or I-48 if it begins at I-35, but not much else.
If they want to pick an interstate route... the list is very limited as the road would be between I-40 and I-44. It can be I-46 or I-48 if it begins at I-35, but not much else.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:02:36 PM
Post by: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:02:36 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 04:15:44 PMQuote from: Wayward Memphian on May 23, 2021, 03:02:00 PMQuote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/u-s-legislators-look-to-designate-part-of-highway-412-as-future-interstate/) as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.
I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .
I have posted on here for several years about how US 412 should be a continuation of I-22. Any new Bridge in Memphis should be the I-22 bridge along with I-555 with a Southern bypass of Jonesboro to meet up with an upgraded AR 226. Connect NWA with NEA without Conway/Little Rock and then to Memphis. Make the exiting part through Jonesboro a 3di to I-22 and curve it up the eastern side to Paragould. A situation not unlike Fort Smith with 549.
I have traveled the I-22 route many times and I do agree with the idea that I-555 is essentially a NE/SE extension of I-22.
They are not going to extend I-22 past Memphis. The interstate is labeled "Memphis to Birmingham interstate", thus only runs from Memphis to Birmingham.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: aboges26 on May 25, 2021, 12:15:04 AM
Post by: aboges26 on May 25, 2021, 12:15:04 AM
Quote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:02:36 PMQuote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 04:15:44 PMQuote from: Wayward Memphian on May 23, 2021, 03:02:00 PMQuote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/u-s-legislators-look-to-designate-part-of-highway-412-as-future-interstate/) as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.
I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .
I have posted on here for several years about how US 412 should be a continuation of I-22. Any new Bridge in Memphis should be the I-22 bridge along with I-555 with a Southern bypass of Jonesboro to meet up with an upgraded AR 226. Connect NWA with NEA without Conway/Little Rock and then to Memphis. Make the exiting part through Jonesboro a 3di to I-22 and curve it up the eastern side to Paragould. A situation not unlike Fort Smith with 549.
I have traveled the I-22 route many times and I do agree with the idea that I-555 is essentially a NE/SE extension of I-22.
They are not going to extend I-22 past Memphis. The interstate is labeled "Memphis to Birmingham interstate", thus only runs from Memphis to Birmingham.
Regardless, in order to connect the disparate segments (I-22 & I-555) it would be a pointless multiplex and a triplex along I-40 & I-55 just to break the grid. If I-555 ever gets extended to Springfield or further to Kansas City, it would more than deserve it's own two-digit number.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 25, 2021, 01:05:39 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 25, 2021, 01:05:39 AM
I see very little chance of US-412 being upgraded to Interstate standards across Northern Arkansas. Most of the existing route is only a 2 lane facility. It runs a winding route with lots of hard turns along the way. There are many pockets of residential and business development built right up next to the road, leaving little if any room for expansion. The road goes through some "sensitive" tourist and scenic areas. Just upgrading all of it to a mix of 4-lane undivided/divided would be difficult.
Not far to the North, US-60 between Springfield and Sikeston is a lot farther along in development. It would be much easier to upgrade to Interstate quality.
Back on topic, I have no problem at all with US-412 being upgraded to Interstate standards between Tulsa and Springdale. That makes sense. An Interstate designation doesn't matter quite as much. But I would only find "I-46" or "I-48" acceptable if the resulting designation took over the Cimarron Turnpike all the way to I-35, that way a portion would be North of I-44. If it's only a Tulsa to Springdale Interstate then an "I-42" apart from NC's intra-state route would be fine, if not a 3-digit off-shoot from I-44. Might be an opportunity to re-designate I-444.
Not far to the North, US-60 between Springfield and Sikeston is a lot farther along in development. It would be much easier to upgrade to Interstate quality.
Back on topic, I have no problem at all with US-412 being upgraded to Interstate standards between Tulsa and Springdale. That makes sense. An Interstate designation doesn't matter quite as much. But I would only find "I-46" or "I-48" acceptable if the resulting designation took over the Cimarron Turnpike all the way to I-35, that way a portion would be North of I-44. If it's only a Tulsa to Springdale Interstate then an "I-42" apart from NC's intra-state route would be fine, if not a 3-digit off-shoot from I-44. Might be an opportunity to re-designate I-444.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 25, 2021, 01:16:43 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 25, 2021, 01:16:43 AM
The bill includes all of the highway between I-35 and Springdale.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 25, 2021, 05:43:55 AM
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 25, 2021, 05:43:55 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 25, 2021, 01:05:39 AM
I see very little chance of US-412 being upgraded to Interstate standards across Northern Arkansas. Most of the existing route is only a 2 lane facility. It runs a winding route with lots of hard turns along the way. There are many pockets of residential and business development built right up next to the road, leaving little if any room for expansion. The road goes through some "sensitive" tourist and scenic areas. Just upgrading all of it to a mix of 4-lane undivided/divided would be difficult.
Not far to the North, US-60 between Springfield and Sikeston is a lot farther along in development. It would be much easier to upgrade to Interstate quality.
Back on topic, I have no problem at all with US-412 being upgraded to Interstate standards between Tulsa and Springdale. That makes sense. An Interstate designation doesn't matter quite as much. But I would only find "I-46" or "I-48" acceptable if the resulting designation took over the Cimarron Turnpike all the way to I-35, that way a portion would be North of I-44. If it's only a Tulsa to Springdale Interstate then an "I-42" apart from NC's intra-state route would be fine, if not a 3-digit off-shoot from I-44. Might be an opportunity to re-designate I-444.
A vast majority will have to be new road just like the non interste standards 4 lane divided segments between Siloam and Tontitown and Sonora and Huntsville.
At the very least this needs extended to Harrison
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Tom958 on May 25, 2021, 05:59:18 AM
Post by: Tom958 on May 25, 2021, 05:59:18 AM
Siloam Springs bypass, 14.6 miles from the end of the Cherokee Turnpike to the east end of that section of new four-lane with a sixty foot median that looks like it could be upgraded to freeway:
(https://i.imgur.com/zjn0WMD.png)
The connection to I-49, 7.6 miles, only slightly south of existing US 412. Fayetteville is the largest of the four cities of the NWA area and home of the University of Arkansas, and the route from Fayetteville westward to Tulsa via the AR 612 bypass would be ridiculous, so here's a more direct route. Ramp braids would be required between the I-46 and existing US 412 interchanges on I-49.
(https://i.imgur.com/7FxgoOI.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/zjn0WMD.png)
The connection to I-49, 7.6 miles, only slightly south of existing US 412. Fayetteville is the largest of the four cities of the NWA area and home of the University of Arkansas, and the route from Fayetteville westward to Tulsa via the AR 612 bypass would be ridiculous, so here's a more direct route. Ramp braids would be required between the I-46 and existing US 412 interchanges on I-49.
(https://i.imgur.com/7FxgoOI.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AM
Post by: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AM
Quote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 25, 2021, 08:20:29 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 25, 2021, 08:20:29 AM
^^^ lol I'm surprised(pleasantly I'll add) this is even happening in Oklahoma to be honest. Oklahoma could use several new interstates, IMO.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 25, 2021, 08:24:21 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 25, 2021, 08:24:21 AM
So isn't US 412 already four lanes across this path anyway? What is the necessity of slapping an interstate sign up and closing off access to property?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on May 25, 2021, 08:56:38 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 25, 2021, 08:56:38 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 25, 2021, 08:24:21 AMA lot of the route is already built to freeway standards, the remainder is still non-limited-access divided, then the route still goes through the towns of Siloam Springs and Tontitown / Springdale. Those towns need to be bypassed at a minimum, then at that point it's a matter of simply closing the gaps between the freeways to provide a consistent design section, and then simply establishing an interstate highway designation.
So isn't US 412 already four lanes across this path anyway? What is the necessity of slapping an interstate sign up and closing off access to property?
It's a logical corridor connecting the two cities, IMO, and many would agree, can't expect much from an anti-roads person though, so I mean :sombrero:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 25, 2021, 09:44:49 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 25, 2021, 09:44:49 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 25, 2021, 08:56:38 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on May 25, 2021, 08:24:21 AMA lot of the route is already built to freeway standards, the remainder is still non-limited-access divided, then the route still goes through the towns of Siloam Springs and Tontitown / Springdale. Those towns need to be bypassed at a minimum, then at that point it's a matter of simply closing the gaps between the freeways to provide a consistent design section, and then simply establishing an interstate highway designation.
So isn't US 412 already four lanes across this path anyway? What is the necessity of slapping an interstate sign up and closing off access to property?
It's a logical corridor connecting the two cities, IMO, and many would agree, can't expect much from an anti-roads person though, so I mean :sombrero:
Well they did have build something in NWA. That was a surprise growth area. Now you have folks that know the limitations and the growth factors. You have to get off the big road at some time. I know some folks want a fully-controlled access highway to their door but really the access is already now built in.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 25, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
Post by: edwaleni on May 25, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
The recent AADT studies on US-412 don't seem to justify upgrades to interstate standards between Ash Flat and Mountain Home. AADT is around 4000.
But that didn't stop ArDOT from upgrading the Walnut Ridge to Paragould ROW to a 4 lane freeway 2 years ago. It had similar usage.
The only issues is where the ROW goes through city centers. So perhaps bypasses are in order, not a wholesale upgrade.
http://www.ahtd.state.ar.us/public_meetings/2018/012313/AADT.pdf (http://www.ahtd.state.ar.us/public_meetings/2018/012313/AADT.pdf)
If anything US-412 needs some safety upgrades east of Mountain Home. The geometry and sight lines are terrible in many places and represents very old highway engineering.
But that didn't stop ArDOT from upgrading the Walnut Ridge to Paragould ROW to a 4 lane freeway 2 years ago. It had similar usage.
The only issues is where the ROW goes through city centers. So perhaps bypasses are in order, not a wholesale upgrade.
http://www.ahtd.state.ar.us/public_meetings/2018/012313/AADT.pdf (http://www.ahtd.state.ar.us/public_meetings/2018/012313/AADT.pdf)
If anything US-412 needs some safety upgrades east of Mountain Home. The geometry and sight lines are terrible in many places and represents very old highway engineering.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 25, 2021, 02:21:48 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 25, 2021, 02:21:48 PM
Quote from: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AMQuote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Oklahoma hasn't added a new interstate designation to a road since 1982, as far as I know. (I-235 was completed and signed after that, but it was in the Green Book so I'm not counting it.) Most new freeway corridors have carried state route numbers (SH-152, SH-74) or been unnumbered turnpikes.
So y'all should hush and let us have this one.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: mvak36 on May 25, 2021, 05:09:02 PM
Post by: mvak36 on May 25, 2021, 05:09:02 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 25, 2021, 02:21:48 PMQuote from: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AMQuote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Oklahoma hasn't added a new interstate designation to a road since 1982, as far as I know. (I-235 was completed and signed after that, but it was in the Green Book so I'm not counting it.) Most new freeway corridors have carried state route numbers (SH-152, SH-74) or been unnumbered turnpikes.
So y'all should hush and let us have this one.
I'm okay with it. I think they should keep going and get an interstate number for the Creek, Muskogee, and Kickapoo Turnpikes :cool:.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: I-55 on May 25, 2021, 07:30:38 PM
Post by: I-55 on May 25, 2021, 07:30:38 PM
Quote from: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AMQuote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Most non-interstate freeways are named toll roads in OK, and there aren't many non-interstate freeways in AR. The main difference between NC and AR is that NC goes 3di crazy (I-840, I-785, I-587, I-274, I-295, I/NC-540) whereas AR is mostly building new 2dis (I-57, I-49, I-69, and potentially the Tulsa-NWA route)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on May 25, 2021, 08:26:06 PM
Post by: bugo on May 25, 2021, 08:26:06 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 24, 2021, 08:23:42 PM
Who cares? That didn't stop I-135 from being designated over US-81.
Technically, I-35W was designated over US 81. I-135 replaced I-35W. I-35W wasn't changed to I-135 until 1976.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bwana39 on May 26, 2021, 01:50:13 PM
Post by: bwana39 on May 26, 2021, 01:50:13 PM
Guys... You are missing the trees because you see the forest.
One word explains why this is progressing and why it will happen if every other road project in Oklahoma and Arkansas grinds to a halt.
WALMART
One word explains why this is progressing and why it will happen if every other road project in Oklahoma and Arkansas grinds to a halt.
WALMART
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on May 26, 2021, 02:23:37 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on May 26, 2021, 02:23:37 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 26, 2021, 01:50:13 PM
Guys... You are missing the trees because you see the forest.
One word explains why this is progressing and why it will happen if every other road project in Oklahoma and Arkansas grinds to a halt.
WALMART
And I'll give you 2 more. Tyson and J.B. Hunt. Like it or not, Fortune 500 companies have some pull with the jobs and tax revenue they provide. Lots of trucks are run by those 3 companies as well. Not to mention, there aren't many over half million people metros this close to each other in the eastern half of the U.S. that aren't connected by an Interstate or freeway of some sort. I just wish they would have bypassed Siloam Springs back when they 6-laned it. Would have been a cheaper and easier job then than it will be when it comes to pass. Another reason why this will likely occur is that NWA has become a Top 90 MSA now with the continued rapid growth, which has recently just exploded in the last few months. In fact, it just passed LR as the largest in Arkansas. Knew it was coming, but it's finally come to pass. LR may be the capital and very well represented with Interstates (and continued attention from ARDOT), but NWA will start to get more federal attention given its size and growth rate.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bwana39 on May 26, 2021, 02:59:31 PM
Post by: bwana39 on May 26, 2021, 02:59:31 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 26, 2021, 02:23:37 PMQuote from: bwana39 on May 26, 2021, 01:50:13 PM
Guys... You are missing the trees because you see the forest.
One word explains why this is progressing and why it will happen if every other road project in Oklahoma and Arkansas grinds to a halt.
WALMART
And I'll give you 2 more. Tyson and J.B. Hunt. Like it or not, Fortune 500 companies have some pull with the jobs and tax revenue they provide. Lots of trucks are run by those 3 companies as well. Not to mention, there aren't many over half million people metros this close to each other in the eastern half of the U.S. that aren't connected by an Interstate or freeway of some sort. I just wish they would have bypassed Siloam Springs back when they 6-laned it. Would have been a cheaper and easier job then than it will be when it comes to pass. Another reason why this will likely occur is that NWA has become a Top 90 MSA now with the continued rapid growth, which has recently just exploded in the last few months. In fact, it just passed LR as the largest in Arkansas. Knew it was coming, but it's finally come to pass. LR may be the capital and very well represented with Interstates (and continued attention from ARDOT), but NWA will start to get more federal attention given its size and growth rate.
Yes, I generally don't list JB Hunt and I mention Tyson and University of Arkansas. U of A is not a part of the Oklahoma equation.
As to the seeming need, all you need to do is look at Austin and see that it is not always that easy. Austin to Houston. Austin to I-10, etc. I heard someone say (not entirely as a joke) that the only reason Austin had I-35 is because it lies between Waco and San Antonio.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 26, 2021, 04:17:07 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 26, 2021, 04:17:07 PM
There is no love lost for Austin in Texas.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 26, 2021, 04:53:51 PM
Post by: edwaleni on May 26, 2021, 04:53:51 PM
I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.
Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions. Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.
I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.
Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.
A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.
Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions. Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.
I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.
Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.
A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on May 26, 2021, 05:19:49 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on May 26, 2021, 05:19:49 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 26, 2021, 04:53:51 PM
I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.
Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions. Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.
I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.
Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.
A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.
If anyone came from the east, they would likely be coming I-40/I-49 currently as US-412 east of Harrison is not a particularly great truck route until it merges with US-63. There are a great number of distribution centers in NWA for Wal-Mart, not just one. And Tyson as well as several other poultry/meat processing companies produce a great deal of product in Springdale/Benton County. Bentonville is growing into a mountain biking mecca, to the point that folks are coming for weeks on end from states out west that most people think of more regularly as mountain biking destinations. I'm working on a house there right now to AirBnB out as it no longer makes financial sense as a long term rental. Things are rapidly transforming away from the tired old stereotypes of what most people think of when Arkansas comes up in conversation, and the growth isn't going to slow down. Nothing but cranes, red dirt, and building/home frames as far as the eye can see. Most of that stuff comes in by truck, so regardless of whether things are destined or sourced by Wal-Mart or the meat processing industry, there's more trucks up here than you'd think, and more congestion to boot. This proposal isn't the pork that you think it is. It's overdue. Now, other segments of US-412, there are certainly some arguments to be made due to AADT. But AR-612/US-412 west of Lowell/Springdale certainly has the density.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: BigOkie on May 27, 2021, 08:24:24 AM
Post by: BigOkie on May 27, 2021, 08:24:24 AM
Quote from: US71 on May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/u-s-legislators-look-to-designate-part-of-highway-412-as-future-interstate/) as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.
I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .
I don't. Given that I travel from Tulsa to Bentonville no fewer than four times a year the section between West Siloam Springs and Springdale/I-49 is hell if you hit it at the wrong time of day. Siloam Springs itself can grind to a halt. Not so bad once you get east of Tontitown but then Springdale is its own mess. They're already building a 412 northern bypass in Springdale to alleviate that and it could be built to interstate standards. Much of it is already completed as AR-612.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: andy3175 on May 27, 2021, 10:02:53 AM
Post by: andy3175 on May 27, 2021, 10:02:53 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 25, 2021, 02:21:48 PMQuote from: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AMQuote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Oklahoma hasn't added a new interstate designation to a road since 1982, as far as I know. (I-235 was completed and signed after that, but it was in the Green Book so I'm not counting it.) Most new freeway corridors have carried state route numbers (SH-152, SH-74) or been unnumbered turnpikes.
So y'all should hush and let us have this one.
Another example of a proposed Interstate in Oklahoma was considered in 1991, when Section 1074 of ISTEA included a future Interstate corridor along US 69 north of the Texas-Oklahoma state line: "upon the request of the Oklahoma State highway agency, the Secretary shall designate the portion of United States Route 69 from the Oklahoma—Texas State line to Checotah in the State of Oklahoma as a part of the Interstate System." Since this upgrade hasn't happened in 30 years, I'm not sure there's haste in Oklahoma to add more Interstate highways.
SM-G975U
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 27, 2021, 10:39:38 AM
Post by: edwaleni on May 27, 2021, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 26, 2021, 05:19:49 PMQuote from: edwaleni on May 26, 2021, 04:53:51 PM
I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.
Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions. Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.
I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.
Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.
A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.
If anyone came from the east, they would likely be coming I-40/I-49 currently as US-412 east of Harrison is not a particularly great truck route until it merges with US-63. There are a great number of distribution centers in NWA for Wal-Mart, not just one. And Tyson as well as several other poultry/meat processing companies produce a great deal of product in Springdale/Benton County. Bentonville is growing into a mountain biking mecca, to the point that folks are coming for weeks on end from states out west that most people think of more regularly as mountain biking destinations. I'm working on a house there right now to AirBnB out as it no longer makes financial sense as a long term rental. Things are rapidly transforming away from the tired old stereotypes of what most people think of when Arkansas comes up in conversation, and the growth isn't going to slow down. Nothing but cranes, red dirt, and building/home frames as far as the eye can see. Most of that stuff comes in by truck, so regardless of whether things are destined or sourced by Wal-Mart or the meat processing industry, there's more trucks up here than you'd think, and more congestion to boot. This proposal isn't the pork that you think it is. It's overdue. Now, other segments of US-412, there are certainly some arguments to be made due to AADT. But AR-612/US-412 west of Lowell/Springdale certainly has the density.
Thanks for the update. I think a lot of people can't fathom or understand what actually comes and goes out of NWA besides the Big 3.
I don't dispute the traffic on US-412 around Siloam Springs, I was there 2 years ago (recommend Barnett's Dairyette) and yes, it gets bad. Upgrades, yes. Interstate? That is what I am struggling with.
Title: Re: seeking interstate upgrade of US 412
Post by: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 10:48:55 AM
Post by: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 10:48:55 AM
Quotehttps://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29408.msg2619225#msg2619225
seeking interstate upgrade of US 412
« on: May 26, 2021, 08:24:16 PM »
since there's plans for a I-42 already in the books, what are the options for an east west route between Springdale and Tulsa between I-40 and 44? Much of it is already turnpike in OK
It could be an IH-X44, IH-X49, or as a stretch an IH-X57. As a real stretch, it could be a continuation of IH-555. The X-49 and X-44 are viable. The others fall into the built all the way across Arkansas realm.
There is not a good 2DI for this one. The sacrosanct IH-50 or a IH-3X. Either of those is outside their grid. If I-50 progressed past Tulsa, it could be grid compliant.
Even if it were brought to IH standards, it would probably remain the misplaced IH-412.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 11:08:10 AM
Post by: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 11:08:10 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 26, 2021, 04:53:51 PM
I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.
Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions. Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.
I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.
Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.
A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.
Me thinks you underestimate the size of the Walmart distribution operation and ancillaries around Bentonville. That said I agree there is more than just them in that area. To add another of several, FedEx Freight is based in nearby Harrison.
Hershey didn't buy Mars. There was a proposed sale of Hershey to Nestle that failed to be completed several years ago.
In the US, Nestle no longer markets candy.
Mars and Hershey are less conjoined since the 00's as Mars quit buying their bulk chocolate from Hershey.
Not sure exactly what his job change was over, but..... Perhaps he was a Nestle Rep and took a job with either Hershey or Mars. Perhaps he worked for a rep firm that traded alliances????
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on May 27, 2021, 12:14:46 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on May 27, 2021, 12:14:46 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 27, 2021, 10:39:38 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on May 26, 2021, 05:19:49 PMQuote from: edwaleni on May 26, 2021, 04:53:51 PM
I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.
Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions. Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.
I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.
Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.
A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.
If anyone came from the east, they would likely be coming I-40/I-49 currently as US-412 east of Harrison is not a particularly great truck route until it merges with US-63. There are a great number of distribution centers in NWA for Wal-Mart, not just one. And Tyson as well as several other poultry/meat processing companies produce a great deal of product in Springdale/Benton County. Bentonville is growing into a mountain biking mecca, to the point that folks are coming for weeks on end from states out west that most people think of more regularly as mountain biking destinations. I'm working on a house there right now to AirBnB out as it no longer makes financial sense as a long term rental. Things are rapidly transforming away from the tired old stereotypes of what most people think of when Arkansas comes up in conversation, and the growth isn't going to slow down. Nothing but cranes, red dirt, and building/home frames as far as the eye can see. Most of that stuff comes in by truck, so regardless of whether things are destined or sourced by Wal-Mart or the meat processing industry, there's more trucks up here than you'd think, and more congestion to boot. This proposal isn't the pork that you think it is. It's overdue. Now, other segments of US-412, there are certainly some arguments to be made due to AADT. But AR-612/US-412 west of Lowell/Springdale certainly has the density.
Thanks for the update. I think a lot of people can't fathom or understand what actually comes and goes out of NWA besides the Big 3.
I don't dispute the traffic on US-412 around Siloam Springs, I was there 2 years ago (recommend Barnett's Dairyette) and yes, it gets bad. Upgrades, yes. Interstate? That is what I am struggling with.
You're certainly welcome. Things are changing so fast in Benton County right now that even if you came every 6 months, you'd be shocked at the progress.
I get that at this point that other than the segments between Lowell and the OK border, and the portion around Tulsa are the only ones that appear to have the AATD to justify an Interstate designation. I personally don't care whether it's 2DI or 3DI, but at least in AR, rural Interstate segments have a 10 MPH greater speed limit, which mostly has the effect of making for shorter travel times until congestion builds too much. The AR-612 segment that is the US-412 Springdale Northern Bypass that's already open is constructed to Interstate standards, and the other 2 upcoming segments will be as well. US-412 west of the end of the bypass is just 4 lane 65MPH with at-grade crossings for 15 miles. Old AR-68 can serve somewhat as access for most property along there, but there likely would need to be a couple of exits between ends of the old highway for any conversion to limited access. And then there's the whole bypassing of Siloam Springs to contend with. They'd better get a move-on with any property acquisition there as my sister-in-law lives north of Siloam Springs, so I drive the area regularly, and there's several subdivisions in the works between her and town, so it's going to get expensive before too long.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 27, 2021, 12:16:49 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 27, 2021, 12:16:49 PM
Quote from: edwaleniI don't dispute the traffic on US-412 around Siloam Springs, I was there 2 years ago (recommend Barnett's Dairyette) and yes, it gets bad. Upgrades, yes. Interstate? That is what I am struggling with.
Whether the corridor would carry an Interstate designation or not anything less than an Interstate quality super highway between I-44 in Tulsa and I-49 in Springdale is just silly. The NWA region may lack a single nationally recognizable giant-sized city, but the cluster of small cities all add up to something that feels like a giant metro anyway, including LOTS of traffic. It's similar to the big cluster of Rio Grande Valley cities in the far South end of Texas, but with a higher average income level.
Pieces of this possible future Interstate corridor have already been falling into place. The first segment of the Springdale Bypass (AR-612) is open. So the connection to I-49 is done. Now they have to extend the freeway West to US-412. This Interstate corridor legislation might help spur progress.
A new bypass around Siloam Springs is the biggest, most difficult to build, missing link on this corridor. And a freeway bypass around Siloam Springs is 100% justified. I've driven the existing road a few times. The traffic gets pretty ridiculous. How to resolve the connection thru or around Dripping Springs to the Cherokee Turnpike is another hurdle, but not as bad is Siloam Springs.
US-412 West of the Cherokee Turnpike to I-44 is a 27 mile long stretch, but one that would be simple to upgrade to Interstate standards compared to a Siloam Springs bypass project. The upgrade would be as easy as the US-71/I-49 conversion project in Western Missouri. Just eliminate the at-grade intersections with a few more diamond exits or just bridges over the highway. Looking closely at the satellite view of US-412 in that area it's easy to see where ROW is already reserved for some future freeway exits (S4115 Rd, S4140 Rd, S4160 Rd, S4170 Rd, S4240 Rd).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 12:25:37 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 12:25:37 PM
US-412 between Tulsa and the Cherokee Turnpike is built on a limited access right of way, meaning there's no private driveways, only crossroads. Additionally, a few of the major intersections are either already grade-separated interchanges or have right of way for future interchanges.
This should be easiest, not already freeway standard, segment to upgrade. Comparable to US-60 in Missouri for the I-57 corridor.
This should be easiest, not already freeway standard, segment to upgrade. Comparable to US-60 in Missouri for the I-57 corridor.
Title: Re: seeking interstate upgrade of US 412
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 12:28:38 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 12:28:38 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 10:48:55 AMI-x57 or I-555 are simply never going to happen. I doubt there will be anything resembling an interstate highway built east of Springdale. I-x44 or I-x49 could work in theory, but for the whole corridor between I-35 and I-49, that's 190 miles. It would be the longest 3di in existence, taking I-476's place. Not saying it's not possible, but more likely given it's connecting two states, two interstate highways, and that length, it'll be an I-4x.Quotehttps://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29408.msg2619225#msg2619225
seeking interstate upgrade of US 412
« on: May 26, 2021, 08:24:16 PM »
since there's plans for a I-42 already in the books, what are the options for an east west route between Springdale and Tulsa between I-40 and 44? Much of it is already turnpike in OK
It could be an IH-X44, IH-X49, or as a stretch an IH-X57. As a real stretch, it could be a continuation of IH-555. The X-49 and X-44 are viable. The others fall into the built all the way across Arkansas realm.
There is not a good 2DI for this one. The sacrosanct IH-50 or a IH-3X. Either of those is outside their grid. If I-50 progressed past Tulsa, it could be grid compliant.
Even if it were brought to IH standards, it would probably remain the misplaced IH-412.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 27, 2021, 12:43:53 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 27, 2021, 12:43:53 PM
If this Interstate proposal does go through (which I'm not entirely sure that it should), maybe they should focus on upgrading and designating the Interstate 35-to-Interstate 244 first, and then focus on upgrading the Interstate 44-to-Interstate 49 segment subsequently. Also, if it goes through, I'd number the corridor Interstate 46.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 01:34:52 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 01:34:52 PM
Some folks just don't want their property taken up as freely as all these proposals I see around here.
Title: Re: seeking interstate upgrade of US 412
Post by: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 02:09:50 PM
Post by: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 02:09:50 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 12:28:38 PMQuote from: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 10:48:55 AMI-x57 or I-555 are simply never going to happen. I doubt there will be anything resembling an interstate highway built east of Springdale. I-x44 or I-x49 could work in theory, but for the whole corridor between I-35 and I-49, that's 190 miles. It would be the longest 3di in existence, taking I-476's place. Not saying it's not possible, but more likely given it's connecting two states, two interstate highways, and that length, it'll be an I-4x.Quotehttps://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29408.msg2619225#msg2619225
seeking interstate upgrade of US 412
« on: May 26, 2021, 08:24:16 PM »
since there's plans for a I-42 already in the books, what are the options for an east west route between Springdale and Tulsa between I-40 and 44? Much of it is already turnpike in OK
It could be an IH-X44, IH-X49, or as a stretch an IH-X57. As a real stretch, it could be a continuation of IH-555. The X-49 and X-44 are viable. The others fall into the built all the way across Arkansas realm.
There is not a good 2DI for this one. The sacrosanct IH-50 or a IH-3X. Either of those is outside their grid. If I-50 progressed past Tulsa, it could be grid compliant.
Even if it were brought to IH standards, it would probably remain the misplaced IH-412.
To be a tecnocrat. It would be two shorter segments. One in Arkansas and one in Oklahoma. I do however agree with you.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 03:10:06 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 03:10:06 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 10:48:55 AM
There is not a good 2DI for this one. The sacrosanct IH-50 or a IH-3X. Either of those is outside their grid. If I-50 progressed past Tulsa, it could be grid compliant.
Well, since it is proposed to go past Tulsa, 46 and 48 are options within the grid.
Why does this keep getting posted?
This is the route being proposed:
(https://i.imgur.com/SkVDCgQ.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 03:35:59 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 03:35:59 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 03:10:06 PMApparently some believe it will not go past Tulsa even though that was obvious from the beginning.Quote from: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 10:48:55 AM
There is not a good 2DI for this one. The sacrosanct IH-50 or a IH-3X. Either of those is outside their grid. If I-50 progressed past Tulsa, it could be grid compliant.
Well, since it is proposed to go past Tulsa, 46 and 48 are options within the grid.
Why does this keep getting posted?
This is the route being proposed:
(https://i.imgur.com/SkVDCgQ.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 04:01:43 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 04:01:43 PM
I feel like, if anything, the part west of Tulsa will probably be the first to get signed as an Interstate, since it's already fully controlled-access (other than possibly one or two at-grades just west of Tulsa, if I remember right). Basically all that would need to be done is to add a median Jersey barrier, like what was done to bring I-44 up to code, and possibly address some clearance issues.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 04:08:47 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 04:08:47 PM
Looks like I-46 would be a good fit. Do you think the tax payer would benefit from a pork project like this one?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 04:40:33 PM
Post by: bwana39 on May 27, 2021, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: andy3175 on May 27, 2021, 10:02:53 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 25, 2021, 02:21:48 PMQuote from: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AMQuote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Oklahoma hasn't added a new interstate designation to a road since 1982, as far as I know. (I-235 was completed and signed after that, but it was in the Green Book so I'm not counting it.) Most new freeway corridors have carried state route numbers (SH-152, SH-74) or been unnumbered turnpikes.
So y'all should hush and let us have this one.
Another example of a proposed Interstate in Oklahoma was considered in 1991, when Section 1074 of ISTEA included a future Interstate corridor along US 69 north of the Texas-Oklahoma state line: "upon the request of the Oklahoma State highway agency, the Secretary shall designate the portion of United States Route 69 from the Oklahoma—Texas State line to Checotah in the State of Oklahoma as a part of the Interstate System." Since this upgrade hasn't happened in 30 years, I'm not sure there's haste in Oklahoma to add more Interstate highways.
SM-G975U
Now I will sound like a Ouija ball, but all signs point toward the US 69 corridor actually getting done. Again signs point to Texas listing US-75 to the I-69 junction or the state line as IH-45. Oklahoma will likely get it done to US-70 in short order after Texas gets theirs done.
Again... ALL SIGNS POINT... There has been lots of discussion on various Texas threads in the Mid-south part of the board. Texas has historically been and is slow to change numbers just to change numbers.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 04:48:40 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 04:48:40 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 04:08:47 PM
Looks like I-46 would be a good fit. Do you think the tax payer would benefit from a pork project like this one?
Duh?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 05:26:21 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 04:01:43 PMAppears to be one at-grade just before the Arkansas River, otherwise the whole segment between Tulsa and I-35 is freeway standards. That one at-grade is close to an interchange and could be linked to it via a frontage road to eliminate the immediate freeway access.
I feel like, if anything, the part west of Tulsa will probably be the first to get signed as an Interstate, since it's already fully controlled-access (other than possibly one or two at-grades just west of Tulsa, if I remember right). Basically all that would need to be done is to add a median Jersey barrier, like what was done to bring I-44 up to code, and possibly address some clearance issues.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 04:08:47 PMYes, particularly the bypasses through the congested towns such as Siloam Springs that you seem to think aren't needed.
Looks like I-46 would be a good fit. Do you think the tax payer would benefit from a project like this one?
You probably would be the one to call the Springdale Bypass a "pork" project, let alone I-49 itself. :pan: :-D
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on May 27, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
Post by: sparker on May 27, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 04:48:40 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 04:08:47 PM
Looks like I-46 would be a good fit. Do you think the tax payer would benefit from a pork project like this one?
Duh?
Uhh.......we're already a relatively low-tax country compared to much of Western Civ (WTF does anyone think the "negotiations" about the funding level of an infrastructure bill entails?) This project is actually something of a bargain; west of Tulsa is basically cleaning up an at-grade or two; while the eastern portion is about 40% done as the Cherokee Turnpike, with AR at least making an attempt at an E-W corridor with AR 612. And I definitely agree that at least this initial project terminate at I-49 right in the heart of ongoing regional development -- providing continuous free-flow connection to Tulsa, the nearest other metro (not that some posters consider free-flow to be a worthwhile goal!).
I'd actually put my two taxable cents in for not pussyfooting around and using I-50 for the designation here. Not just to use up that I-x0, but because at that time the Muskogee Turnpike could conceivably receive a 3di based on that designation: I-350, just about as close as one can get to the current AR 351 designation (not that anyone in OK outside ODOT and we roadgeeks likely gives a rat's ass about that turnpike number!) so as not to cause too many fits within ODOT!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Tom958 on May 27, 2021, 06:00:58 PM
Post by: Tom958 on May 27, 2021, 06:00:58 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 27, 2021, 12:16:49 PMA new bypass around Siloam Springs is the biggest, most difficult to build, missing link on this corridor. And a freeway bypass around Siloam Springs is 100% justified. I've driven the existing road a few times. The traffic gets pretty ridiculous. How to resolve the connection thru or around Dripping Springs to the Cherokee Turnpike is another hurdle, but not as bad is Siloam Springs.
I'm amazed that ArDOT has a full-blown plan, partly implemented, for a Springdale bypass for US 412, but not for one for Siloam Springs.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on May 27, 2021, 07:34:44 PM
Post by: sparker on May 27, 2021, 07:34:44 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on May 27, 2021, 06:00:58 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on May 27, 2021, 12:16:49 PMA new bypass around Siloam Springs is the biggest, most difficult to build, missing link on this corridor. And a freeway bypass around Siloam Springs is 100% justified. I've driven the existing road a few times. The traffic gets pretty ridiculous. How to resolve the connection thru or around Dripping Springs to the Cherokee Turnpike is another hurdle, but not as bad is Siloam Springs.
I'm amazed that ArDOT has a full-blown plan, partly implemented, for a Springdale bypass for US 412, but not for one for Siloam Springs.
Not surprising; Springdale is where the commercial and residential "action" is as the more or less midpoint of the NWA metro region; Siloam, while a historic resort, is still just a point on the E-W road to Tulsa. But all shouldn't be considered as lost; the fact that the Bella Vista bypass actually got done -- and, like Siloam, involves input and funding sourced within another state -- indicates that while it may not be the simplest project around, it's certainly not an impossible situation.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 27, 2021, 09:17:26 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 27, 2021, 09:17:26 PM
I think the Siloam Springs bypass would potentially be easier to build than the Belle Vista Bypass. It wouldn't cover as much mileage and would thread its way around properties not worth as much money. However, if AR DOT farts around and doesn't get ROW secure for the bypass really soon they're going to see the most practical route alternatives get totally covered up with residential subdivision developments.
Basically, the Siloam Springs bypass would be easiest built to the North of town not far from Flint Creek. New housing is sprouting up in that area. If it gets too over-built that might push a bypass design to the South of Siloam Springs, where it would have to cut through more difficult, hilly territory.
Basically, the Siloam Springs bypass would be easiest built to the North of town not far from Flint Creek. New housing is sprouting up in that area. If it gets too over-built that might push a bypass design to the South of Siloam Springs, where it would have to cut through more difficult, hilly territory.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:30:08 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:30:08 PM
^ Thus, I imagine, why the Senators are proposing this now. It's a lot easier to convince the state and federal governments to cough up money to secure ROW when you have a Congressional mandate to do so.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: andy3175 on May 27, 2021, 10:57:36 PM
Post by: andy3175 on May 27, 2021, 10:57:36 PM
Quote from: sparker on May 27, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
I'd actually put my two taxable cents in for not pussyfooting around and using I-50 for the designation here. Not just to use up that I-x0, but because at that time the Muskogee Turnpike could conceivably receive a 3di based on that designation: I-350, just about as close as one can get to the current AR 351 designation (not that anyone in OK outside ODOT and we roadgeeks likely gives a rat's ass about that turnpike number!) so as not to cause too many fits within ODOT!
Agreed, sparker. And the spur to Cimarron could be I-150.
And ... could this mean US 412 itself could go away between I-35 and I-49 and be replaced with I-50? There are many overlaps along its route west of I-35, and it seems like shifting US 412 to surface routes parallel to the new Interstate would just increase its shared alignments with other routes. Maybe ... but probably not, at least for the short term assuming this proposal comes to fruition.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:59 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:59 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 04:48:40 PMI was just thinking that the numbering would be a good fit but necessarily the project itself. I don't agree with the project and wonder if the tax payers in the area believe that a benefit will be derived from this pork project. We are talking about using the power of eminent domain to take property. I don't take a light look to that issue as the road builders do.Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 04:08:47 PM
Looks like I-46 would be a good fit. Do you think the tax payer would benefit from a pork project like this one?
Duh?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 11:22:27 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 11:22:27 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:59 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 04:48:40 PMI was just thinking that the numbering would be a good fit but necessarily the project itself. I don't agree with the project and wonder if the tax payers in the area believe that a benefit will be derived from this pork project. We are talking about using the power of eminent domain to take property. I don't take a light look to that issue as the road builders do.Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 04:08:47 PM
Looks like I-46 would be a good fit. Do you think the tax payer would benefit from a pork project like this one?
Duh?
Good thing you don't live here then, huh? As one of the tax payers in the area, I don't think they're spending enough. Taxes in OK are so low our transportation system is 30 years behind.
But then you haven't ever displayed a tendency to look at any transportation project through any perspective deeper than "Mmmmmh! Tax bad! Make bad tax man go away!"
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on May 28, 2021, 06:08:56 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 28, 2021, 06:08:56 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:59 PMWe're talking about the government fairly buying property at market value. They're not "taking property" . The government cannot legally do that.
We are talking about using the power of eminent domain to take property.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 28, 2021, 02:08:46 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 28, 2021, 02:08:46 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2021, 06:08:56 AMThank you thank you thank you. I can not stand when people refer to eminent domain as simply "taking property."Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:59 PMWe're talking about the government fairly buying property at market value. They're not "taking property" . The government cannot legally do that.
We are talking about using the power of eminent domain to take property.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on May 28, 2021, 02:26:09 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on May 28, 2021, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 28, 2021, 02:08:46 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2021, 06:08:56 AMThank you thank you thank you. I can not stand when people refer to eminent domain as simply "taking property."Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:59 PMWe're talking about the government fairly buying property at market value. They're not "taking property" . The government cannot legally do that.
We are talking about using the power of eminent domain to take property.
In Soviet Russia, property takes you!!
Yakov
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 28, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 28, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
If the US 412 corridor become an Interstate, it would justify numbering all the exits along the Sand Springs Expressway's segment of 412 (They would be numbered as a continuation of the Cimarron Turnpike's numbers). I'd leave the duplex with 244 and its existing numbers intact (same with the duplex of 44). The Cherokee Turnpike's exits would have to be renumbered (as a continuation of the mileage from the US 412/Interstate 35 interchange). I wouldn't give a designation to the Stillwater Spur (I don't think it needs one), although I would renumber Exits 20A and 21A to 0 and 1.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 28, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 28, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Prior Oklahoma practice in similar situations would be to truncate I-244 at downtown Tulsa and renumber the interchanges accordingly. This is what happened when I-44 was extended over I-240 in OKC in the 80s.
Likewise, prior Oklahoma practice if the interchanges on the Stillwater spur were to be renumbered, they'd likely be 1A and 1B rather than 0 and 1. Oklahoma has historically never used Exit 0; mile 1 is extended to be two miles long.
Of course, since when has Oklahoma transportation ever been self-consistent? They may yet surprise me.
I'm of two minds when it comes to numbering the Stillwater spur. On one hand, it's really just a lengthy offramp to US-177. However, it does have an intermediate interchange at Perkins Road, and experience dealing with the other unnumbered turnpike spur in the Oklahoma turnpike system shows it's kind of awkward to refer to a specific point along it (like someone calling and saying "where are you at?") without having its own name or number. This is even greater of a concern with the Cimarron spur than the Bailey spur because it is longer and passes through a more remote area.
Also, anyone want to tell me what the heck is going on with this mile marker? (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1994073,-97.0661146,3a,18.5y,265.71h,85.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4qctKFmDt3jqKsD34io52w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D4qctKFmDt3jqKsD34io52w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D309.54477%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)
Likewise, prior Oklahoma practice if the interchanges on the Stillwater spur were to be renumbered, they'd likely be 1A and 1B rather than 0 and 1. Oklahoma has historically never used Exit 0; mile 1 is extended to be two miles long.
Of course, since when has Oklahoma transportation ever been self-consistent? They may yet surprise me.
I'm of two minds when it comes to numbering the Stillwater spur. On one hand, it's really just a lengthy offramp to US-177. However, it does have an intermediate interchange at Perkins Road, and experience dealing with the other unnumbered turnpike spur in the Oklahoma turnpike system shows it's kind of awkward to refer to a specific point along it (like someone calling and saying "where are you at?") without having its own name or number. This is even greater of a concern with the Cimarron spur than the Bailey spur because it is longer and passes through a more remote area.
Also, anyone want to tell me what the heck is going on with this mile marker? (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1994073,-97.0661146,3a,18.5y,265.71h,85.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4qctKFmDt3jqKsD34io52w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D4qctKFmDt3jqKsD34io52w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D309.54477%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Tom958 on May 28, 2021, 05:17:39 PM
Post by: Tom958 on May 28, 2021, 05:17:39 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 28, 2021, 04:44:44 PMAlso, anyone want to tell me what the heck is going on with this mile marker? (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1994073,-97.0661146,3a,18.5y,265.71h,85.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4qctKFmDt3jqKsD34io52w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D4qctKFmDt3jqKsD34io52w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D309.54477%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)
It must be seven miles west of the beginning of the Stillwater spur, which is 27 miles east of I-35.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 28, 2021, 06:07:39 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 28, 2021, 06:07:39 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on May 28, 2021, 05:17:39 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 28, 2021, 04:44:44 PMAlso, anyone want to tell me what the heck is going on with this mile marker? (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1994073,-97.0661146,3a,18.5y,265.71h,85.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4qctKFmDt3jqKsD34io52w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D4qctKFmDt3jqKsD34io52w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D309.54477%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)
It must be seven miles west of the beginning of the Stillwater spur, which is 27 miles east of I-35.
Ah, the "A" suffix is being used on all of the spur mileage, which isn't how they do it on the Bailey spur (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2062674,-97.6323479,3a,15y,179.57h,85.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJEBH1b5T3diNJpeYwu1Wjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). I had thought that they had decided to put the exit number for exit 20A on the milemarker instead of the gore point for some strange reason. Still, where did they get that font? Is that Eurostile...?
But again, another reason for actually giving the spurs a number of some kind–it would eliminate this weird spur-mileage nonsense.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on May 28, 2021, 06:34:51 PM
Post by: sparker on May 28, 2021, 06:34:51 PM
Quote from: andy3175 on May 27, 2021, 10:57:36 PMQuote from: sparker on May 27, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
I'd actually put my two taxable cents in for not pussyfooting around and using I-50 for the designation here. Not just to use up that I-x0, but because at that time the Muskogee Turnpike could conceivably receive a 3di based on that designation: I-350, just about as close as one can get to the current AR 351 designation (not that anyone in OK outside ODOT and we roadgeeks likely gives a rat's ass about that turnpike number!) so as not to cause too many fits within ODOT!
Agreed, sparker. And the spur to Cimarron could be I-150.
And ... could this mean US 412 itself could go away between I-35 and I-49 and be replaced with I-50? There are many overlaps along its route west of I-35, and it seems like shifting US 412 to surface routes parallel to the new Interstate would just increase its shared alignments with other routes. Maybe ... but probably not, at least for the short term assuming this proposal comes to fruition.
As far as truncating US 412 is concerned, it's likely that whoever the parties are that proposed and implemented the western extension through the Panhandle and on to I-25 would have a shit fit about removing the designation & signage; obviously they thought that a single designation across that part of OK and into NM was necessary for someone's purposes of navigation. Snarky idea that blurs the Fictional line here: If the Raton-Dumas branch of the P2P is ever approved as an Interstate corridor, designate it as the same number (I-50?) as the corridor under discussion here -- and dare the powers that be to connect them! They're more or less (with a little tweaking in the TX panhandle) on the same latitude. Hardly needed to address any major through traffic issues in that neck of the woods -- but that hasn't always stopped corridor designation before -- particularly in regards to congressional districts through which it would run! At least it would be a fun (and funky) way to get from NWA to the Front Range!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on May 29, 2021, 02:11:30 AM
Post by: US 89 on May 29, 2021, 02:11:30 AM
Based on what I saw of the US 56/64/412 overlap in NM, I doubt they’d care too much if US 412 disappeared from their state. Half the signs between Clayton and the OK line have 56 all by itself, with no mention of 412 at all. (The other half are weird 56/412 unisigns where they’ve shrunk both numbers and squeezed them into one shield on top of each other - and I don’t recall a single reference to US 64 on that section.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on May 29, 2021, 05:47:53 AM
Post by: sparker on May 29, 2021, 05:47:53 AM
Quote from: US 89 on May 29, 2021, 02:11:30 AM
Based on what I saw of the US 56/64/412 overlap in NM, I doubt they'd care too much if US 412 disappeared from their state. Half the signs between Clayton and the OK line have 56 all by itself, with no mention of 412 at all. (The other half are weird 56/412 unisigns where they've shrunk both numbers and squeezed them into one shield on top of each other - and I don't recall a single reference to US 64 on that section.)
Something tells me that the idea for US 412 was germinated elsewhere (likely OK, AR, or TN) and more or less imposed upon NM, who have decided to do little more than make a half-assed effort at signage. Can't really blame them for not making their crews head out and post additional signs over a road that's been signed as US 56 since 1957! If and when an Interstate is signed on the corridor from I-35 to I-49, it certainly wouldn't be inappropriate for NMDOT and ODOT to jointly request rescinding US 412 west of I-35 -- and maybe even, with ADOT concurrence, west of I-49. But even with the long multiplex with US 62 across northern AR, it'll probably stick around east of there simply because it does carry considerable through traffic from Walnut Ridge east to Jackson, TN. Personally, I'd renumber it as US 162 or US 170, but obviously someone with clout has decided that the "400" series of US routes should delineate the more recent multistate Midwest corridors.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 30, 2021, 11:36:44 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 30, 2021, 11:36:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114Ah, the "A" suffix is being used on all of the spur mileage, which isn't how they do it on the Bailey spur. I had thought that they had decided to put the exit number for exit 20A on the milemarker instead of the gore point for some strange reason. Still, where did they get that font? Is that Eurostile...?
It looks kind of like Helvetica Neue Bold Condensed to me.
Anyone else notice the new mile markers ODOT has been installing on "free" Interstate routes? A couple or so months ago we got new ones on I-44 in the Lawton area installed every half mile. They have the I-44 shield on them.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 30, 2021, 11:58:53 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 30, 2021, 11:58:53 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 30, 2021, 11:36:44 PMQuote from: Scott5114Ah, the "A" suffix is being used on all of the spur mileage, which isn't how they do it on the Bailey spur. I had thought that they had decided to put the exit number for exit 20A on the milemarker instead of the gore point for some strange reason. Still, where did they get that font? Is that Eurostile...?
It looks kind of like Helvetica Neue Bold Condensed to me.
The boxy '0' makes me think Eurostile. But it's apparently a one-off; 21A is in proper Series C.
Quote
Anyone else notice the new mile markers ODOT has been installing on "free" Interstate routes? A couple or so months ago we got new ones on I-44 in the Lawton area installed every half mile. They have the I-44 shield on them.
Those are the enhanced mile markers from the MUTCD. I got to see the first ones they put up; their beta-test segment was on I-35 from Purcell through Goldsby and into Norman. They're more or less the same markers that Missouri uses on all of their Interstates, but Missouri places them every 0.2 miles (and uses ".0" on the whole-mile markers, which ODOT omits).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on May 31, 2021, 02:05:39 PM
Post by: US71 on May 31, 2021, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 30, 2021, 11:36:44 PMQuote from: Scott5114Ah, the "A" suffix is being used on all of the spur mileage, which isn't how they do it on the Bailey spur. I had thought that they had decided to put the exit number for exit 20A on the milemarker instead of the gore point for some strange reason. Still, where did they get that font? Is that Eurostile...?
It looks kind of like Helvetica Neue Bold Condensed to me.
Anyone else notice the new mile markers ODOT has been installing on "free" Interstate routes? A couple or so months ago we got new ones on I-44 in the Lawton area installed every half mile. They have the I-44 shield on them.
MoDOT does every 2/10 of a mile
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Strider on May 31, 2021, 08:57:52 PM
Post by: Strider on May 31, 2021, 08:57:52 PM
Quote from: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AMQuote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Really? NC doesn't interstate everything. Get your facts right, bro.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 31, 2021, 09:11:19 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 31, 2021, 09:11:19 PM
Quote from: Strider on May 31, 2021, 08:57:52 PMQuote from: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AMQuote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Really? NC doesn't interstate everything. Get your facts right, bro.
they'll get around to making your driveway a 3di at the next SCOURN meeting, chill
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 01, 2021, 08:13:09 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 01, 2021, 08:13:09 AM
I could US 412 sticking around from TN into NWA. As mentioned there is a significant amount of folks that trailblaze US 412 from Jackson to NWA.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on June 01, 2021, 09:41:31 AM
Post by: edwaleni on June 01, 2021, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 01, 2021, 08:13:09 AM
I could US 412 sticking around from TN into NWA. As mentioned there is a significant amount of folks that trailblaze US 412 from Jackson to NWA.
Not likely for commercial traffic. Perhaps for leisure.
NASH-TUL either takes I-40 via Little Rock to the Muskogee Turnpike or I-24 to US-60 across Missouri (even with the Cairo Bridge involved)
MEM-KCMO doesn't even use it. They prefer I-55 to I-70 then across.
Between TUL-NWA it may be busy, but any trailblazing is done by the leisure folk, not commercial between Jackson TN and NWA.
I get why you see an opportunity west of Jackson TN, but US-412 in NEA is really an in-state arterial.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 01, 2021, 01:12:06 PM
Post by: sparker on June 01, 2021, 01:12:06 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 31, 2021, 09:11:19 PMQuote from: Strider on May 31, 2021, 08:57:52 PMQuote from: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AMQuote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Really? NC doesn't interstate everything. Get your facts right, bro.
they'll get around to making your driveway a 3di at the next SCOURN meeting, chill
They (NCDOT and their political handlers) only request Interstate status for those freeways included in the state's "master plan" for such -- which pretty much takes in every arterial connector in the state. In practical terms, more or less the polar opposite regarding OK practice: the US 412 Interstate proposal had to come from its (and AR's) congressional delegation; it certainly wasn't germinated within ODOT.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 02, 2021, 07:51:18 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 02, 2021, 07:51:18 PM
Just drove US-412 today from Walnut Ridge, AR to Springdale, AR coming back from Jonesboro from a job. Always a fun stretch of road that I'd always choose over the faster/longer jog down US-63/AR-226/US-67/US-64/I-40/I-49, but had to be at a jobsite in Little Rock just before, so that tied my hands on the route out to NEA. It's 40 miles shorter and more to look at with curves and hills to entertain the driving enthusiast, not to mention that northern AR is pretty much a temperate rainforest this spring with lush vegetation and swollen creeks and rivers. Really there's only 4 places where traffic was less than free flowing on a holiday week as there are more passing lanes than there used to be, but it could stand one more between Imboden and Ravenden, 1 to 2 more between Viola and Henderson, 3 more passing lanes east of US-65 in Boone County along with a northern bypass of Harrison, and 2 to 3 more in the 33 miles between Alpena and Huntsville. That would pretty much bring parity on travel time from NEA to NWA and reduce mileage slightly over the current route by bypassing Harrison to the north. I really don't see justification for making a limited access facility on any portion east of Harrison and west of Hardy other than perhaps the bypass portion. But that's outside the scope of this proposal anyway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 03, 2021, 01:13:41 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 03, 2021, 01:13:41 PM
I think it's plausible to do upgrades of US-412 in Northern Arkansas in various spots, like 4-laning the road where feasible or even building some grade-separated interchanges. But a full-blown Interstate upgrade from Springdale to I-55 would be overkill, not to mention very disruptive to some of the more scenic/tourist-centric locations along the way.
If this new OK-AR Interstate proposal were to be extended any direction I would prefer it go West from I-35 over to Enid and Woodward. The Enid part would be a pretty easy upgrade. Making a bypass around Enid and going West would cost more. But Woodward has a lot of potential as a distribution hub. The Southern Transcon (one of the busiest freight rail corridors in the nation) goes through Woodward.
If this new OK-AR Interstate proposal were to be extended any direction I would prefer it go West from I-35 over to Enid and Woodward. The Enid part would be a pretty easy upgrade. Making a bypass around Enid and going West would cost more. But Woodward has a lot of potential as a distribution hub. The Southern Transcon (one of the busiest freight rail corridors in the nation) goes through Woodward.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 03, 2021, 01:19:51 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 03, 2021, 01:19:51 PM
Will this project really be needed in the areas already covered by the OK turnpikes?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 03, 2021, 01:30:02 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 03, 2021, 01:30:02 PM
In the case of the Cimarron Turnpike, the only thing involved would be changing signs. The Cherokee Turnpike doesn't cover all the area between Tulsa and Springdale. There are gaps that absolutely do need to be upgraded into limited access form regardless of the road being signed as an Interstate or not.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 03, 2021, 01:35:13 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 03, 2021, 01:35:13 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 03, 2021, 01:19:51 PMWhat exactly would they build? The turnpikes would be incorporated as limited access segments. The Cherokee is posted up to 80 mph. No need to build a new route where they exist.
Will this project really be needed in the areas already covered by the OK turnpikes?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 03, 2021, 02:20:49 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 03, 2021, 02:20:49 PM
Does anyone see US 412 between Interstate 44 and the western terminus of the Cherokee Turnpike being built as a tolled future Interstate (a western extension of the CT) or a non-tolled Interstate? I definitely see the segment east of the Cherokee Turnpike being built as a non-toll road, but am unsure of the other portion. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 03, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Post by: sparker on June 03, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 03, 2021, 02:20:49 PM
Does anyone see US 412 between Interstate 44 and the western terminus of the Cherokee Turnpike being built as a tolled future Interstate (a western extension of the CT) or a non-tolled Interstate? I definitely see the segment east of the Cherokee Turnpike being built as a non-toll road, but am unsure of the other portion. What do you guys think?
That's probably something that'll be hashed around and volleyed back & forth between ODOT and OTA. Best guess: I-44 to the western end of the present Cherokee facility would simply be built as a western extension of the Cherokee, since it would tie more or less directly into both the Will Rogers (I-44) and Creek (OK 364) turnpikes at its west terminus, making for a continuous or connected turnpike run (and which may precipitate a 3di/x44 for the Creek). East of the existing Cherokee would probably be a built as a freeway to placate local Siloam traffic (as well as giving AR drivers ample time to get off & shunpike if they want). But since the OK "idiom" has been established with I-44: most of it toll except for metro areas, it would probably be deemed acceptable to do so with the new E-W Interstate corridor as well, since to the west it doesn't change to a toll facility until beyond the populated area and to the east a toll facility is expected at some point anyway. I would imagine Tulsa folks are accustomed to the practice by now!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Strider on June 03, 2021, 05:46:35 PM
Post by: Strider on June 03, 2021, 05:46:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 31, 2021, 09:11:19 PMQuote from: Strider on May 31, 2021, 08:57:52 PMQuote from: GaryV on May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AMQuote from: Strider on May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM
It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.
I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.
Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?
Really? NC doesn't interstate everything. Get your facts right, bro.
they'll get around to making your driveway a 3di at the next SCOURN meeting, chill
As long as you don't spread misinformation. So get your facts right.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 03, 2021, 07:13:07 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 03, 2021, 07:13:07 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 03, 2021, 05:15:23 PMI would disagree, given US-412 is already a limited access highway, albeit some at grade intersections, between I-44 and the Cherokee. No new facility needs to be built. Some projects to convert the intersections to interchanges will be needed, but no major corridor wide upgrade, like a full new freeway or capturing non-limited-access right of way for frontage roads, etc. It would be pointless to toll an existing facility in this regard.Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 03, 2021, 02:20:49 PM
Does anyone see US 412 between Interstate 44 and the western terminus of the Cherokee Turnpike being built as a tolled future Interstate (a western extension of the CT) or a non-tolled Interstate? I definitely see the segment east of the Cherokee Turnpike being built as a non-toll road, but am unsure of the other portion. What do you guys think?
That's probably something that'll be hashed around and volleyed back & forth between ODOT and OTA. Best guess: I-44 to the western end of the present Cherokee facility would simply be built as a western extension of the Cherokee, since it would tie more or less directly into both the Will Rogers (I-44) and Creek (OK 364) turnpikes at its west terminus, making for a continuous or connected turnpike run (and which may precipitate a 3di/x44 for the Creek). East of the existing Cherokee would probably be a built as a freeway to placate local Siloam traffic (as well as giving AR drivers ample time to get off & shunpike if they want). But since the OK "idiom" has been established with I-44: most of it toll except for metro areas, it would probably be deemed acceptable to do so with the new E-W Interstate corridor as well, since to the west it doesn't change to a toll facility until beyond the populated area and to the east a toll facility is expected at some point anyway. I would imagine Tulsa folks are accustomed to the practice by now!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 03, 2021, 09:19:06 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 03, 2021, 09:19:06 PM
It's so sad Texas can build endless miles of toll free roads and Oklahoma can't do anything besides toll toll toll. If ODOT is smart they'd remove the existing tolls on this portion. God forbid Tulsa gets a toll free interstate.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 03, 2021, 10:41:27 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 03, 2021, 10:41:27 PM
I strongly doubt Texas is 100% done with building toll roads. They're sure not removing toll gates off any of the tolled express lanes they've built in the last couple of decades. It's also worth pointing out the cost per mile in tolls is a lot higher in Texas than Oklahoma.
I think it's much more likely the Cherokee Turnpike will stay as-is and the section of US-412 between I-44 and that turnpike will be turned into a freeway. It will be cheaper to build. As a toll road OTA and ODOT would have to work together to add continuous frontage roads along that new section of super highway in order to maintain a free alternative US highway route. Note: Alt-412 (old US-412) runs alongside the Cherokee Turnpike.
Quote from: sparkerThat's probably something that'll be hashed around and volleyed back & forth between ODOT and OTA. Best guess: I-44 to the western end of the present Cherokee facility would simply be built as a western extension of the Cherokee,...
I think it's much more likely the Cherokee Turnpike will stay as-is and the section of US-412 between I-44 and that turnpike will be turned into a freeway. It will be cheaper to build. As a toll road OTA and ODOT would have to work together to add continuous frontage roads along that new section of super highway in order to maintain a free alternative US highway route. Note: Alt-412 (old US-412) runs alongside the Cherokee Turnpike.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 04, 2021, 05:44:26 AM
Post by: sparker on June 04, 2021, 05:44:26 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 03, 2021, 07:13:07 PMQuote from: sparker on June 03, 2021, 05:15:23 PMI would disagree, given US-412 is already a limited access highway, albeit some at grade intersections, between I-44 and the Cherokee. No new facility needs to be built. Some projects to convert the intersections to interchanges will be needed, but no major corridor wide upgrade, like a full new freeway or capturing non-limited-access right of way for frontage roads, etc. It would be pointless to toll an existing facility in this regard.Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 03, 2021, 02:20:49 PM
Does anyone see US 412 between Interstate 44 and the western terminus of the Cherokee Turnpike being built as a tolled future Interstate (a western extension of the CT) or a non-tolled Interstate? I definitely see the segment east of the Cherokee Turnpike being built as a non-toll road, but am unsure of the other portion. What do you guys think?
That's probably something that'll be hashed around and volleyed back & forth between ODOT and OTA. Best guess: I-44 to the western end of the present Cherokee facility would simply be built as a western extension of the Cherokee, since it would tie more or less directly into both the Will Rogers (I-44) and Creek (OK 364) turnpikes at its west terminus, making for a continuous or connected turnpike run (and which may precipitate a 3di/x44 for the Creek). East of the existing Cherokee would probably be a built as a freeway to placate local Siloam traffic (as well as giving AR drivers ample time to get off & shunpike if they want). But since the OK "idiom" has been established with I-44: most of it toll except for metro areas, it would probably be deemed acceptable to do so with the new E-W Interstate corridor as well, since to the west it doesn't change to a toll facility until beyond the populated area and to the east a toll facility is expected at some point anyway. I would imagine Tulsa folks are accustomed to the practice by now!
Under other circumstances I'd tend to agree with you here, but if this new Interstate corridor is actually legislated (likely appended to the FY '22 USDOT yearly budget request as per previous corridors of this type), it might be considered at the state level as just another federally-specified "unfunded mandate" -- at which point the prospect of offsetting upgrade and/or new construction expenses with tolls might be seriously discussed during the "back & forth" deliberations I mentioned in the prior post. It'll probably come down to whether the cost of a freeway upgrade from I-44 east to the Cherokee pike would be enough to provoke the toll discussion -- and, of course, whether the modifications necessary to actually deploy a toll facility (with a viable alternative in place as well) would in essence consume any monetary gains accrued by the lengthened toll road.
It'll be interesting; this will be the first congressionally-designated Interstate corridor in OK -- not counting the now 30-year-old ISTEA appendage that allows ODOT to designate US 69 as an Interstate as far north as I-40, which they've essentially ignored for that period of time*. Of course, AR already has three such corridors with which to deal (I-49, I-69, and most recently I-57), so they're basically "old hats" at the game. How normally stingy OK responds will be quite revealing.
*Curiously, that corridor was simply "tacked on" to the ISTEA act (as section #1174), but decidedly not included within the first batch of high priority corridors -- which effectively exempted it from the maximum 80% federal share of development/construction cost that accrues to HPC's; also the codicil that ODOT needs to not only request designation but have the corridor at Interstate standards when doing so puts the ball squarely in the state's court. Thus it's not a "cookie-cutter" Interstate corridor request like those in TX, NC, and the various other states where the congressional-designation method has been employed.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 04, 2021, 01:19:02 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 04, 2021, 01:19:02 PM
The only upgrades I could see taking place to the current turnpikes would be minor safety improvements, like upgraded median barriers, and perhaps some bridge replacements, on the Cimarron Turnpike. The Cimarron is one of the older roads in the turnpike system, and while I'm not familiar with it specifically, other toll roads of that vintage tend to have hilariously obsolete overpasses over the road, some only one lane (not one in each direction, one total!), so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some clearance issues. The current median is paved and has a cable barrier down the middle. I'm not sure if that would pass muster with FHWA, who may require it get a Jersey barrier to be compliant with Interstate standards. I think that the Cherokee is probably pretty close to Interstate standards as-is.
Meanwhile, the ODOT-maintained sections are likely to remain untolled and simply upgraded by that agency, because any sort of tolling would require transferring the road to OTA, and doing so is legally complicated. The only precedent for it was the other way (OTA to ODOT) and was likely only possible because the enabling act for the relevant turnpike explicitly allowed such a transfer. It would probably be easier for ODOT to just upgrade the roads than transfer them–they are mostly four-lane divided and just need interchanges and overpasses; it's no more than MoDOT had to do to upgrade US-71 to I-49 north of Joplin.
There is one other Interstate corridor that has been Congressionally designated in Oklahoma–the Creek Turnpike. Although years after that, the only action on it that the Transportation Commission has made has been to designate it SH-364, so apparently they're not that interested in an Interstate designation.
Meanwhile, the ODOT-maintained sections are likely to remain untolled and simply upgraded by that agency, because any sort of tolling would require transferring the road to OTA, and doing so is legally complicated. The only precedent for it was the other way (OTA to ODOT) and was likely only possible because the enabling act for the relevant turnpike explicitly allowed such a transfer. It would probably be easier for ODOT to just upgrade the roads than transfer them–they are mostly four-lane divided and just need interchanges and overpasses; it's no more than MoDOT had to do to upgrade US-71 to I-49 north of Joplin.
There is one other Interstate corridor that has been Congressionally designated in Oklahoma–the Creek Turnpike. Although years after that, the only action on it that the Transportation Commission has made has been to designate it SH-364, so apparently they're not that interested in an Interstate designation.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 01:26:38 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 01:26:38 PM
What is the safety issues associated with this type of paved should/cable barrier versus a grass median?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 04, 2021, 01:34:43 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 04, 2021, 01:34:43 PM
The narrow grass medians originally built on the Cimarron Turnpike and other turnpikes of that vintage were completely ineffective at preventing cross-over accidents. See GSV (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2185489,-96.418945,3a,75y,91.03h,87.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRyncrRLokDfabDjyidXRQg!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), be sure to set history to the 2008 or 2009 captures to view the old median, then compare to present day. The cable barriers are sufficient to stop a lot of crossovers, but when struck require a crew to come out and reset/replace the pylons and retension the cables to restore them to full effectiveness. A Jersey barrier is more expensive but lower maintenance.
In any case, no taxpayer money is spent on upgrades to Oklahoma turnpikes. OTA is fully funded by toll money collected from all of the roads in the turnpike system (the Turner and Will Rogers largely subsidize the other eight turnpikes).
In any case, no taxpayer money is spent on upgrades to Oklahoma turnpikes. OTA is fully funded by toll money collected from all of the roads in the turnpike system (the Turner and Will Rogers largely subsidize the other eight turnpikes).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 01:42:18 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 01:42:18 PM
I am sure some OHP Troopers didn't like the grass median pave over for ticket writing purposes.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 04, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 04, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
If it bothered them too much, they could always request a transfer to a different troop. OHP Troop YA patrols the Cimarron Turnpike and nothing else. (Each Oklahoma turnpike has a dedicated OHP troop.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 04, 2021, 01:46:22 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 04, 2021, 01:46:22 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 01:42:18 PMSo are you suggesting the raised grass medians with no left shoulder were safer on 75 mph highways as opposed to a paved left shoulder and a high tension cable barrier?
I am sure some OHP Troopers didn't like the grass median pave over for ticket writing purposes.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on June 04, 2021, 01:59:31 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 04, 2021, 01:59:31 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 01:42:18 PM
I am sure some OHP Troopers didn't like the grass median pave over for ticket writing purposes.
I've personally had a OHP Trooper flip a U-turn across the grassy median hump of US-412 (west of US-177 before the cable barrier was installed) and give me a warning for speeding. I think I was only doing like 81 in a 75.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 02:41:28 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 02:41:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 04, 2021, 01:46:22 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 01:42:18 PMSo are you suggesting the raised grass medians with no left shoulder were safer on 75 mph highways as opposed to a paved left shoulder and a high tension cable barrier?
I am sure some OHP Troopers didn't like the grass median pave over for ticket writing purposes.
I am not saying anything. I was just theorizing that a Trooper or two may have had a honey hole. I wasn't speaking to the safety past or present.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on June 04, 2021, 02:50:37 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 04, 2021, 02:50:37 PM
Passing a trucker, after dark, with a grassy mound immediately left of the edge line, at 75-80 mph... Yeah, I never really felt very safe doing that.
Fast-forward a few years, and now I find myself occasionally driving in Mexico on a four-lane divided highway with a dropoff immediately right of the edge line–being passed by turnpike doubles at 65-70 mph. I mean, I guess I'd take the grassy mound over the dropoff, but I wouldn't call either one "safe".
Fast-forward a few years, and now I find myself occasionally driving in Mexico on a four-lane divided highway with a dropoff immediately right of the edge line–being passed by turnpike doubles at 65-70 mph. I mean, I guess I'd take the grassy mound over the dropoff, but I wouldn't call either one "safe".
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 04, 2021, 03:34:52 PM
Post by: sparker on June 04, 2021, 03:34:52 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 02:41:28 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 04, 2021, 01:46:22 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 01:42:18 PMSo are you suggesting the raised grass medians with no left shoulder were safer on 75 mph highways as opposed to a paved left shoulder and a high tension cable barrier?
I am sure some OHP Troopers didn't like the grass median pave over for ticket writing purposes.
I am not saying anything. I was just theorizing that a Trooper or two may have had a honey hole. I wasn't speaking to the safety past or present.
"Honey hole" -- that's the first time I've heard that term; I suppose it would also apply to those cross-median accessways labeled "For Official Use Only" in some states. But I'm sure the old OTA maintenance crews really loved having to deal with trooper tire tracks marring their nicely-kept grass medians!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: In_Correct on June 05, 2021, 02:20:20 AM
Post by: In_Correct on June 05, 2021, 02:20:20 AM
I am confused. Are the Officers able to use the gaps in the Jersey Barriers to be able to turn around?
Or they can simply contact an Officer going in the opposite direction?
Or they can simply contact an Officer going in the opposite direction?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 04:12:07 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 04:12:07 AM
Quote from: In_Correct on June 05, 2021, 02:20:20 AM
I am confused. Are the Officers able to use the gaps in the Jersey Barriers to be able to turn around?
That's the whole reason they put the gaps there. Occasionally a fire truck or ambulance will make use of one, but it's mostly cops.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on June 06, 2021, 02:41:17 PM
Post by: rte66man on June 06, 2021, 02:41:17 PM
Interesting......
https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2021/june/june-transportation-commission-video-teleconference-meeting-sche.html
I was unable to find any mention of this on the published agenda.
https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2021/june/june-transportation-commission-video-teleconference-meeting-sche.html
Quote
Friday, June 04, 2021
Media Advisory
June 3, 2021
The Oklahoma Transportation Commission's monthly meeting is scheduled to take place as a video teleconference at 11 a.m. Monday, June 7. Members of the public and media will be able to access the web livestream video or listen by phone by following the instructions at the bottom of this release.
Items to be addressed at the meeting:
Secretary of Transportation and Oklahoma Department of Transportation Executive Director Tim Gatz will update commission members on transportation funding provisions in the state budget as well as ongoing congressional discussions about federal infrastructure funding and possible interstate designation for US-412.
I was unable to find any mention of this on the published agenda.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 07, 2021, 07:49:37 AM
Post by: bugo on June 07, 2021, 07:49:37 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 26, 2021, 02:59:31 PM
Yes, I generally don't list JB Hunt and I mention Tyson and University of Arkansas. U of A is not a part of the Oklahoma equation.
A lot of Tulsa kids go to Arkansas when they graduate high school. Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is. There is also some game day traffic between the two cities, because there are lots of Razorback fans in Oklahoma.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on June 07, 2021, 07:54:04 AM
Post by: rte66man on June 07, 2021, 07:54:04 AM
Quote from: bugo on June 07, 2021, 07:49:37 AMQuote from: bwana39 on May 26, 2021, 02:59:31 PM
Yes, I generally don't list JB Hunt and I mention Tyson and University of Arkansas. U of A is not a part of the Oklahoma equation.
A lot of Tulsa kids go to Arkansas when they graduate high school. Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is. There is also some game day traffic between the two cities, because there are lots of Razorback fans in Oklahoma.
+1.
You didn't mention the AQ Chicken House in Springdale . First place I ever ate battered french fries.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2021, 04:21:32 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2021, 04:21:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114The narrow grass medians originally built on the Cimarron Turnpike and other turnpikes of that vintage were completely ineffective at preventing cross-over accidents. See GSV, be sure to set history to the 2008 or 2009 captures to view the old median, then compare to present day. The cable barriers are sufficient to stop a lot of crossovers, but when struck require a crew to come out and reset/replace the pylons and retension the cables to restore them to full effectiveness. A Jersey barrier is more expensive but lower maintenance.
Back in the early 1990's there was a horrible head-on collision on I-44 near Elgin, OK that killed several people. This was due in part to the narrow grassy median about the width of a vehicle lane. The left lanes on I-44 had no interior left shoulders either. Drivers in the left lane had to be careful; any drifting around in the lane could have wheels hitting the grass at the edge of the lane at high speed. An out of control vehicle could very easily go into the opposing lanes.
I don't know if the incident near Elgin had any effect on plans, but it wasn't long after that tragedy that the concrete Jersey barrier was erected on the I-44 turnpikes from the Medicine Park exit up to the Missouri State line.
Strangely, many years passed before OTA did anything about I-44 South of Lawton. A few years ago they finally removed the stupidly dangerous narrow grassy median. They replaced that grassy strip with concrete slab and put a cable barrier in the middle of it. OTA did that because it cost half the price of a concrete Jersey barrier. I have heard some arguments that suggest a cable barrier is safer than a concrete Jersey barrier because it does more to slow and stop vehicles. An out of control vehicle will just bounce off a concrete Jersey barrier.
Most of the Cimarron Turnpike has been upgraded in a similar manner: grassy strip replaced with concrete and a cable barrier. But I think there are still a couple stretches of the turnpike that still have the old grassy medians. I think the spur going to Stillwater still has a narrow grassy median.
Quote from: Scott5114The only upgrades I could see taking place to the current turnpikes would be minor safety improvements, like upgraded median barriers, and perhaps some bridge replacements, on the Cimarron Turnpike.
OTA also needs to do something about those old toll plazas. They'll have to do something about that anyway, given the plans to go to all-electronic tolling. Those old toll plazas are a serious bottleneck. Some are in pretty bad condition. The Walters toll booth on I-44 South of Lawton is a good example. I get nervous driving on the bridge over the top of the old toll booth due to the very poor condition of the road deck. There have been plans to re-build that plaza on the books for years, but the project just keeps getting delayed over and over.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 10, 2021, 09:53:47 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 10, 2021, 09:53:47 AM
I have had the unfortunate instances of witnessing a vehicle lose control and ram a jersey barrier. The barrier slung the vehicle around and the driver did not make it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 10, 2021, 11:07:44 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 10, 2021, 11:07:44 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 10, 2021, 09:53:47 AMYou're suggesting a raised median would be safer? Where the vehicle would cross over the median into the opposing lane, crashing head on with oncoming traffic, killing both the driver at-fault and some innocent driver, as opposed to just the driver at-fault? Any loss of life is tragic, however if it has to happen, rather it be one vehicle vs. two, one of which completely without any fault.
I have had the unfortunate instances of witnessing a vehicle lose control and ram a jersey barrier. The barrier slung the vehicle around and the driver did not make it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 10, 2021, 04:11:14 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 10, 2021, 04:11:14 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 10, 2021, 11:07:44 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 10, 2021, 09:53:47 AMYou’re suggesting a raised median would be safer? Where the vehicle would cross over the median into the opposing lane, crashing head on with oncoming traffic, killing both the driver at-fault and some innocent driver, as opposed to just the driver at-fault? Any loss of life is tragic, however if it has to happen, rather it be one vehicle vs. two, one of which completely without any fault.
I have had the unfortunate instances of witnessing a vehicle lose control and ram a jersey barrier. The barrier slung the vehicle around and the driver did not make it.
No unfortunately I have been a witness to numerous traffic collisions both of a serious injury and fatality over the years. I'll defer the median control systems to an engineer.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 10, 2021, 04:16:02 PM
Post by: sparker on June 10, 2021, 04:16:02 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 10, 2021, 11:07:44 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 10, 2021, 09:53:47 AMYou're suggesting a raised median would be safer? Where the vehicle would cross over the median into the opposing lane, crashing head on with oncoming traffic, killing both the driver at-fault and some innocent driver, as opposed to just the driver at-fault? Any loss of life is tragic, however if it has to happen, rather it be one vehicle vs. two, one of which completely without any fault.
I have had the unfortunate instances of witnessing a vehicle lose control and ram a jersey barrier. The barrier slung the vehicle around and the driver did not make it.
The very design of a K-rail, with its concave vertical fascia, is intended to in essence "flip" any vehicle striking it and running up its surface back onto its own side of the barrier; that is specifically supposed to minimize the chances of said vehicle crossing to the other side of the barrier. Critics of this design have suggested that this sort of "flip" greatly increases the chances of multi-car pileups in the original direction of travel, whereas a tall straight-sided barrier would be more likely to result in the problem vehicle staying at least partially in the inside shoulder area. Both are designed to deflect rather than absorb vehicle inertia; other methods like dual or thrie-beam installations or even cable are considerably more absorptive while keeping as much "action" on the direction-of-travel side of the road as possible. As an aside, the old CA DOH thought that densely-planed oleander bushes (selected for their very low watering needs) made for a reasonably effective freeway median barrier, using the bush structure as a buffer. Most of the existing examples of these, many along CA 99 in the San Joaquin Valley, have been augmented by cable or thrie-beams flanking the trunks of the bushes; this was done after several instances of large trucks crossing the median and causing major -- and often fatal -- incidents.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 10, 2021, 08:54:29 PM
Post by: bugo on June 10, 2021, 08:54:29 PM
Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on June 11, 2021, 01:12:32 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 11, 2021, 01:12:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 10, 2021, 08:54:29 PM
Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.
Don't worry, we didn't forget.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 05:26:21 PM
Appears to be one at-grade just before the Arkansas River, otherwise the whole segment between Tulsa and I-35 is freeway standards. That one at-grade is close to an interchange and could be linked to it via a frontage road to eliminate the immediate freeway access.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 11, 2021, 01:18:40 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 11, 2021, 01:18:40 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 10, 2021, 08:54:29 PM
Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.
A full blown interchange isn't always warranted. Can't they build a superstreet, a diverging diamond, a stagnated turn, Michigan Left, New Jersey Left, or a roundabout?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 11, 2021, 01:30:02 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 11, 2021, 01:30:02 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 11, 2021, 01:18:40 PMI'd argue regardless of the interstate designation, this particular intersection should be closed... it's the only at-grade separation on what is otherwise an uninterrupted freeway route between Tulsa and I-35. A simple frontage road connecting to the SR-151 interchange would suffice.Quote from: bugo on June 10, 2021, 08:54:29 PM
Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.
A full blown interchange isn't always warranted. Can't they build a superstreet, a diverging diamond, a stagnated turn, Michigan Left, New Jersey Left, or a roundabout?
It doesn't meet driver expectations and presents a danger with low speed traffic entering high-speed freeway lanes on what is a limited access highway.
Why would they waste money converting the intersection into an "innovated" design as opposed to simply building a connecting frontage road and associated improvements to the SH-151 interchange to accommodate it? Especially given its on a limited access highway. The goal should to remove it, not keep it. It's not like they have to build a new interchange or overpass.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 11, 2021, 01:36:28 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 11, 2021, 01:36:28 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 11, 2021, 01:18:40 PMQuote from: bugo on June 10, 2021, 08:54:29 PM
Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.
A full blown interchange isn't always warranted. Can't they build a superstreet, a diverging diamond, a stagnated turn, Michigan Left, New Jersey Left, or a roundabout?
How the heck did you get that bugo was advocating for an interchange at Diamond Head Drive out of his post? He mentioned building a frontage road down to 151, which would probably be way cheaper and safer than any of the things you listed (of which a diverging diamond is a full-blown interchange, and I have no idea what a "stagnated turn" is, though it sounds like it probably attracts mosquitoes).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 11, 2021, 04:14:44 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 11, 2021, 04:14:44 PM
If Diamond Head Dr. were to be extended to OK 151, it should intersect 151 at the W. Wekiwa Rd. Of course, with the Two Rivers Trail in the way that might be a problem. Maybe more space for such an extension could be made if the OK 151 were downgraded from a free-flow trumpet interchange into a non-free-flow diamond (or some other smaller configuration) interchange.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on June 11, 2021, 04:33:37 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 11, 2021, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 11, 2021, 04:14:44 PM
If Diamond Head Dr. were to be extended to OK 151, it should intersect 151 at the W. Wekiwa Rd. Of course, with the Two Rivers Trail in the way that might be a problem. Maybe more space for such an extension could be made if the OK 151 were downgraded from a free-flow trumpet interchange into a non-free-flow diamond (or some other smaller configuration) interchange.
It could just parallel US-412 and OK-151 down to that point, with a sharp curve at the trailhead to form a four-way intersection with 151.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 11, 2021, 04:52:15 PM
Post by: sparker on June 11, 2021, 04:52:15 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 11, 2021, 04:33:37 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on June 11, 2021, 04:14:44 PM
If Diamond Head Dr. were to be extended to OK 151, it should intersect 151 at the W. Wekiwa Rd. Of course, with the Two Rivers Trail in the way that might be a problem. Maybe more space for such an extension could be made if the OK 151 were downgraded from a free-flow trumpet interchange into a non-free-flow diamond (or some other smaller configuration) interchange.
It could just parallel US-412 and OK-151 down to that point, with a sharp curve at the trailhead to form a four-way intersection with 151.
Driven through there several times and noted the at-grade intersection; extending any of the streets in that small subdivision over to OK 151 shouldn't be a prohibitive issue. But that issue shouldn't have any bearing on the designation of US 412 as a future Interstate; it would, of course, need to be corrected prior to actual signage which would likely be at least a decade away. That would be plenty of time for such a revision to be designed and constructed.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 16, 2021, 03:07:20 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 16, 2021, 03:07:20 PM
Quote from: sparker on May 28, 2021, 06:34:51 PMQuote from: andy3175 on May 27, 2021, 10:57:36 PMQuote from: sparker on May 27, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
I'd actually put my two taxable cents in for not pussyfooting around and using I-50 for the designation here. Not just to use up that I-x0, but because at that time the Muskogee Turnpike could conceivably receive a 3di based on that designation: I-350, just about as close as one can get to the current AR 351 designation (not that anyone in OK outside ODOT and we roadgeeks likely gives a rat's ass about that turnpike number!) so as not to cause too many fits within ODOT!
Agreed, sparker. And the spur to Cimarron could be I-150.
And ... could this mean US 412 itself could go away between I-35 and I-49 and be replaced with I-50? There are many overlaps along its route west of I-35, and it seems like shifting US 412 to surface routes parallel to the new Interstate would just increase its shared alignments with other routes. Maybe ... but probably not, at least for the short term assuming this proposal comes to fruition.
As far as truncating US 412 is concerned, it's likely that whoever the parties are that proposed and implemented the western extension through the Panhandle and on to I-25 would have a shit fit about removing the designation & signage; obviously they thought that a single designation across that part of OK and into NM was necessary for someone's purposes of navigation. Snarky idea that blurs the Fictional line here: If the Raton-Dumas branch of the P2P is ever approved as an Interstate corridor, designate it as the same number (I-50?) as the corridor under discussion here -- and dare the powers that be to connect them! They're more or less (with a little tweaking in the TX panhandle) on the same latitude. Hardly needed to address any major through traffic issues in that neck of the woods -- but that hasn't always stopped corridor designation before -- particularly in regards to congressional districts through which it would run! At least it would be a fun (and funky) way to get from NWA to the Front Range!
I-50 would make sense as the only other E/W route in the vicinity that would be somewhat grid-compliant would be US-60 for an I-50. And US-54/US-400 would tend to lend itself to an eventual I-60 as US-50 is too near I-70 for a couple of states in the middle of the country. It's my belief that they came up with the whole US-4** scheme to mess with the OCD types enough to force a consideration of replacement with an eventual Interstate designation on all of the routes in question as they tend to be in consistent latitudes or radials between capital cities.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 16, 2021, 04:18:40 PM
Post by: sparker on June 16, 2021, 04:18:40 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on June 16, 2021, 03:07:20 PMQuote from: sparker on May 28, 2021, 06:34:51 PMQuote from: andy3175 on May 27, 2021, 10:57:36 PMQuote from: sparker on May 27, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
I'd actually put my two taxable cents in for not pussyfooting around and using I-50 for the designation here. Not just to use up that I-x0, but because at that time the Muskogee Turnpike could conceivably receive a 3di based on that designation: I-350, just about as close as one can get to the current AR 351 designation (not that anyone in OK outside ODOT and we roadgeeks likely gives a rat's ass about that turnpike number!) so as not to cause too many fits within ODOT!
Agreed, sparker. And the spur to Cimarron could be I-150.
And ... could this mean US 412 itself could go away between I-35 and I-49 and be replaced with I-50? There are many overlaps along its route west of I-35, and it seems like shifting US 412 to surface routes parallel to the new Interstate would just increase its shared alignments with other routes. Maybe ... but probably not, at least for the short term assuming this proposal comes to fruition.
As far as truncating US 412 is concerned, it's likely that whoever the parties are that proposed and implemented the western extension through the Panhandle and on to I-25 would have a shit fit about removing the designation & signage; obviously they thought that a single designation across that part of OK and into NM was necessary for someone's purposes of navigation. Snarky idea that blurs the Fictional line here: If the Raton-Dumas branch of the P2P is ever approved as an Interstate corridor, designate it as the same number (I-50?) as the corridor under discussion here -- and dare the powers that be to connect them! They're more or less (with a little tweaking in the TX panhandle) on the same latitude. Hardly needed to address any major through traffic issues in that neck of the woods -- but that hasn't always stopped corridor designation before -- particularly in regards to congressional districts through which it would run! At least it would be a fun (and funky) way to get from NWA to the Front Range!
I-50 would make sense as the only other E/W route in the vicinity that would be somewhat grid-compliant would be US-60 for an I-50. And US-54/US-400 would tend to lend itself to an eventual I-60 as US-50 is too near I-70 for a couple of states in the middle of the country. It's my belief that they came up with the whole US-4** scheme to mess with the OCD types enough to force a consideration of replacement with an eventual Interstate designation on all of the routes in question as they tend to be in consistent latitudes or radials between capital cities.
Except for US 425, which just peters out in Natchez (as US 65 used to do). Seeing that 425 replaced (or was multiplexed with) LA 15, I for one wouldn't be surprised if either 425 or US 65 is eventually extended down that highway (aka part of the "Great River Road") toward Baton Rouge -- which would put it closer to the category as a connector between state capitals, even though the north end is in Pine Bluff, 30 miles distant from LR!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 16, 2021, 05:57:46 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 16, 2021, 05:57:46 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 16, 2021, 04:18:40 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 16, 2021, 03:07:20 PM
I-50 would make sense as the only other E/W route in the vicinity that would be somewhat grid-compliant would be US-60 for an I-50. And US-54/US-400 would tend to lend itself to an eventual I-60 as US-50 is too near I-70 for a couple of states in the middle of the country. It's my belief that they came up with the whole US-4** scheme to mess with the OCD types enough to force a consideration of replacement with an eventual Interstate designation on all of the routes in question as they tend to be in consistent latitudes or radials between capital cities.
Except for US 425, which just peters out in Natchez (as US 65 used to do). Seeing that 425 replaced (or was multiplexed with) LA 15, I for one wouldn't be surprised if either 425 or US 65 is eventually extended down that highway (aka part of the "Great River Road") toward Baton Rouge -- which would put it closer to the category as a connector between state capitals, even though the north end is in Pine Bluff, 30 miles distant from LR!
The 30 miles between LR and Pine Bluff would likely change designations to a 2DI from its current 3DI like I-540 between Alma and Bella Vista became I-49, if the unlikely event ever came to fruition of a freeway between Pine Bluff and Baton Rouge, assuming there's ever freeway between Pine Bluff and Monticello even.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2021, 08:19:29 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2021, 08:19:29 PM
I don't think there will ever be an Interstate 50 or an Interstate 60. Those two designations were avoided to prevent conflicting with US 50 and US 60. I don't see those two designations being used unless they did it in an out-of-place "Interstate 99-like" location.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 16, 2021, 08:35:49 PM
Post by: sparker on June 16, 2021, 08:35:49 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on June 16, 2021, 05:57:46 PMQuote from: sparker on June 16, 2021, 04:18:40 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 16, 2021, 03:07:20 PM
I-50 would make sense as the only other E/W route in the vicinity that would be somewhat grid-compliant would be US-60 for an I-50. And US-54/US-400 would tend to lend itself to an eventual I-60 as US-50 is too near I-70 for a couple of states in the middle of the country. It's my belief that they came up with the whole US-4** scheme to mess with the OCD types enough to force a consideration of replacement with an eventual Interstate designation on all of the routes in question as they tend to be in consistent latitudes or radials between capital cities.
Except for US 425, which just peters out in Natchez (as US 65 used to do). Seeing that 425 replaced (or was multiplexed with) LA 15, I for one wouldn't be surprised if either 425 or US 65 is eventually extended down that highway (aka part of the "Great River Road") toward Baton Rouge -- which would put it closer to the category as a connector between state capitals, even though the north end is in Pine Bluff, 30 miles distant from LR!
The 30 miles between LR and Pine Bluff would likely change designations to a 2DI from its current 3DI like I-540 between Alma and Bella Vista became I-49, if the unlikely event ever came to fruition of a freeway between Pine Bluff and Baton Rouge, assuming there's ever freeway between Pine Bluff and Monticello even.
I'd place odds of I-57 usurping I-530 -- and eventually AR 530 -- at least as far south as the I-69 corridor at Monticello, once (a) I-57 is signed north of LR and (b) there's some definitive movement on I-69 and/or an extension south to either I-20 in Monroe, LA or I-49 down in Alexandria is planned. I don't think there's enough traffic on US 425 south of Bastrop/US 165 to warrant an Interstate corridor marching down the banks of the Mississippi.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2021, 08:19:29 PM
I don't think there will ever be an Interstate 50 or an Interstate 60. Those two designations were avoided to prevent conflicting with US 50 and US 60. I don't see those two designations being used unless they did it in an out-of-place "Interstate 99-like" location.
It's not the actual presence of US 50 or US 60 that is the prohibitive factor here, it's the longstanding policy of not deploying an identically-numbered US and Interstate highway in the same state. Since the US 412 corridor doesn't hit a state where US 50 is deployed (save MO's "boot heel"), such a corridor is technically possible, particularly if the Interstate portion remains west of I-49. Likewise US 400 to the north could conceivably be a route for an I-60 designation, remaining in KS and possibly CO for its length (I don't think anyone would quibble about a few hundred yards prior to the I-44 junction!). But the presence of the OK turnpikes and the growth of NWA as its own metro area makes the US 412 corridor the more likely of the two for near-term development. I've iterated the rationale for the I-50 designation before; that hasn't changed.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 12:07:27 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 12:07:27 AM
Quote from: sparker on June 16, 2021, 08:35:49 PM
It's not the actual presence of US 50 or US 60 that is the prohibitive factor here, it's the longstanding policy of not deploying an identically-numbered US and Interstate highway in the same state. Since the US 412 corridor doesn't hit a state where US 50 is deployed (save MO's "boot heel"), such a corridor is technically possible, particularly if the Interstate portion remains west of I-49. Likewise US 400 to the north could conceivably be a route for an I-60 designation, remaining in KS and possibly CO for its length (I don't think anyone would quibble about a few hundred yards prior to the I-44 junction!). But the presence of the OK turnpikes and the growth of NWA as its own metro area makes the US 412 corridor the more likely of the two for near-term development. I've iterated the rationale for the I-50 designation before; that hasn't changed.
Clearly that policy isn't really valid anymore, even in Arkansas (I-49/US-49). It's not really that difficult in this day and age to add an I to a route designation in state databases to delineate it from its US/State highway counterpart.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 17, 2021, 05:52:03 AM
Post by: sparker on June 17, 2021, 05:52:03 AM
Like the English language, technical rules concerning Interstate numbering practice have numerous exceptions; IL has hosted both US 24 and I-24 since the systems' inception. Of course, NC takes it to an extreme with both US 74 & I-74 occupying the same alignment. The rule wasn't predicated to keep anyone's database pristine; it was more for eliminating possible confusion for public navigation purposes (initially based on the notion that the driving public would confuse an I-50 with US 50 if the two were in close proximity). When the initial systems' numbering was decided circa 1956-58, the concept of E-W numbers ending in zero being "special" in terms of importance was (at least IMO) oversold, leading to such things as I-80 heading to San Francisco while I-80N shot up to Portland, some 650 miles to the north. Presently -- at least in terms of additional corridors being added -- the system is now "pre-sold"; the number "50" is just another even number in the compendium of unassigned designations. For the US 412 corridor, I-46, 48, or 52 would work equally well in this situation; I suggested 50 for the reasons discussed upthread.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 17, 2021, 05:54:45 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 17, 2021, 05:54:45 AM
Quote from: sparker on June 17, 2021, 05:52:03 AM
Like the English language, technical rules concerning Interstate numbering practice have numerous exceptions; IL has hosted both US 24 and I-24 since the systems' inception. Of course, NC takes it to an extreme with both US 74 & I-74 occupying the same alignment. The rule wasn't predicated to keep anyone's database pristine; it was more for eliminating possible confusion for public navigation purposes (initially based on the notion that the driving public would confuse an I-50 with US 50 if the two were in close proximity). When the initial systems' numbering was decided circa 1956-58, the concept of E-W numbers ending in zero being "special" in terms of importance was (at least IMO) oversold, leading to such things as I-80 heading to San Francisco while I-80N shot up to Portland, some 650 miles to the north. Presently -- at least in terms of additional corridors being added -- the system is now "pre-sold"; the number "50" is just another even number in the compendium of unassigned designations. For the US 412 corridor, I-46, 48, or 52 would work equally well in this situation; I suggested 50 for the reasons discussed upthread.
I really so no reason but to keep this as US 412. Although I would personally renumber US 412 to US 66.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 17, 2021, 12:55:10 PM
Post by: sparker on June 17, 2021, 12:55:10 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 17, 2021, 05:54:45 AMQuote from: sparker on June 17, 2021, 05:52:03 AM
Like the English language, technical rules concerning Interstate numbering practice have numerous exceptions; IL has hosted both US 24 and I-24 since the systems' inception. Of course, NC takes it to an extreme with both US 74 & I-74 occupying the same alignment. The rule wasn't predicated to keep anyone's database pristine; it was more for eliminating possible confusion for public navigation purposes (initially based on the notion that the driving public would confuse an I-50 with US 50 if the two were in close proximity). When the initial systems' numbering was decided circa 1956-58, the concept of E-W numbers ending in zero being "special" in terms of importance was (at least IMO) oversold, leading to such things as I-80 heading to San Francisco while I-80N shot up to Portland, some 650 miles to the north. Presently -- at least in terms of additional corridors being added -- the system is now "pre-sold"; the number "50" is just another even number in the compendium of unassigned designations. For the US 412 corridor, I-46, 48, or 52 would work equally well in this situation; I suggested 50 for the reasons discussed upthread.
I really so no reason but to keep this as US 412. Although I would personally renumber US 412 to US 66.
(yawn) .....what else is new? Tell that to the combined OK/AR congressional delegation who is proposing the upgrade; the views of a non-constituent should carry considerable weight there! While this corridor is yet to be considered a fait accompli, the fact that about 70% of it is completed (assuming it uses AR 612) bodes well for its eventual development. Just because there's an adage out there saying that "everything doesn't have to be an Interstate" doesn't mean that a few select corridors actually serving as connectors between growing metro areas don't warrant that level of service.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 05:47:12 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 05:47:12 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 17, 2021, 12:55:10 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 17, 2021, 05:54:45 AMQuote from: sparker on June 17, 2021, 05:52:03 AM
Like the English language, technical rules concerning Interstate numbering practice have numerous exceptions; IL has hosted both US 24 and I-24 since the systems' inception. Of course, NC takes it to an extreme with both US 74 & I-74 occupying the same alignment. The rule wasn't predicated to keep anyone's database pristine; it was more for eliminating possible confusion for public navigation purposes (initially based on the notion that the driving public would confuse an I-50 with US 50 if the two were in close proximity). When the initial systems' numbering was decided circa 1956-58, the concept of E-W numbers ending in zero being "special" in terms of importance was (at least IMO) oversold, leading to such things as I-80 heading to San Francisco while I-80N shot up to Portland, some 650 miles to the north. Presently -- at least in terms of additional corridors being added -- the system is now "pre-sold"; the number "50" is just another even number in the compendium of unassigned designations. For the US 412 corridor, I-46, 48, or 52 would work equally well in this situation; I suggested 50 for the reasons discussed upthread.
I really so no reason but to keep this as US 412. Although I would personally renumber US 412 to US 66.
(yawn) .....what else is new? Tell that to the combined OK/AR congressional delegation who is proposing the upgrade; the views of a non-constituent should carry considerable weight there! While this corridor is yet to be considered a fait accompli, the fact that about 70% of it is completed (assuming it uses AR 612) bodes well for its eventual development. Just because there's an adage out there saying that "everything doesn't have to be an Interstate" doesn't mean that a few select corridors actually serving as connectors between growing metro areas don't warrant that level of service.
I actually am a constituent and have contacted both Sen. Cotton and Sen. Boozman with my idea of numbering it I-50 to make Lowell/Springdale the numeric center of the IHS. I can't think of any other U.S. highway that would warrant that designation that serves a larger set of areas in the middle of the country and remains grid compliant. Think of the marketing benefits of such a designation, and it becomes an easy sell to congressmen. It eventually will extend in length on one end or the other, although perhaps not in our lifetimes. Now if there was only some way of changing my avatar to I-50! That would raise a stink around here with at least one individual!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on June 17, 2021, 05:51:43 PM
Post by: skluth on June 17, 2021, 05:51:43 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 16, 2021, 08:35:49 PM
It's not the actual presence of US 50 or US 60 that is the prohibitive factor here, it's the longstanding policy of not deploying an identically-numbered US and Interstate highway in the same state.
I think Wisconsin trashed that policy with I-41.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 05:55:35 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 05:55:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2021, 08:19:29 PM
I don't think there will ever be an Interstate 50 or an Interstate 60. Those two designations were avoided to prevent conflicting with US 50 and US 60. I don't see those two designations being used unless they did it in an out-of-place "Interstate 99-like" location.
If you were going to put Interstate 60 down anywhere, Oklahoma would be the place to do it, since it very much doesn't care about different route types with the same number conflicting. US 270 and OK 270 run within a few miles of each other, and I-44, US 54, US 56, US 59, and US 83 all also have state highways with the same number.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 17, 2021, 05:54:45 AM
I really so no reason but to keep this as US 412. Although I would personally renumber US 412 to US 66.
I really so no reason for you to keep throwing a tantrum on here every time a project where the government could theoretically spend money is mentioned. Starting to think you're trolling.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 05:59:21 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 05:59:21 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
It is done. Forgot about good old MS Paint and uploading avatars.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 06:05:28 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 06:05:28 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 05:59:21 PM
It is done. Forgot about good old MS Paint and uploading avatars.
Heh, I actually drew up a shield and started monkeying around with your profile to try and surprise you with it, but you beat me to it. :sombrero:
Here it is if you want one that's a bit higher quality.
(https://i.imgur.com/KW4yLXP.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 06:20:07 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 06:20:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 06:05:28 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 05:59:21 PM
It is done. Forgot about good old MS Paint and uploading avatars.
Heh, I actually drew up a shield and started monkeying around with your profile to try and surprise you with it, but you beat me to it. :sombrero:
Here it is if you want one that's a bit higher quality.
(https://i.imgur.com/KW4yLXP.png)
Yours was better, so I switched. Thanks! It does seem a tad smaller than the standard shields for some reason, though.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 06:55:21 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 06:55:21 PM
You're welcome! That image is 65px high, which was the same height as your old avatar. I could make it a tad bigger if you wanted.
If you're talking about the digits, those are smaller; that's a 1956-style shield, which AHTD kept using well into the 2000s (and thus was what they were using the first few times I ventured east, so I still associate it with Arkansas). They only changed to the modern shield design when I-540 was renumbered to I-49.
If you're talking about the digits, those are smaller; that's a 1956-style shield, which AHTD kept using well into the 2000s (and thus was what they were using the first few times I ventured east, so I still associate it with Arkansas). They only changed to the modern shield design when I-540 was renumbered to I-49.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Way back in his posting history I seem to remember seeing that he identified as a former Tennessee politician, so I always just assumed that the fiscal-pants-crapping song-and-dance was a holdover from that and a terminal failure to recognize that a road forum isn't going to eat his performance up the way his constituents used to. But some of his recent behavior (like posting the same shtick in the FritzOwl thread of all places) is making me second-guess that assumption.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 07:07:29 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 07:07:29 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PMFritzown and Avalanche would be hilarious to see as two challengers: when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Way back in his posting history I seem to remember seeing that he identified as a former Tennessee politician, so I always just assumed that the fiscal-pants-crapping song-and-dance was a holdover from that and a terminal failure to recognize that a road forum isn't going to eat his performance up the way his constituents used to. But some of his recent behavior (like posting the same shtick in the FritzOwl thread of all places) is making me second-guess that assumption.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:21:13 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 07:07:29 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PMFritzown and Avalanche would be hilarious to see as two challengers: when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Way back in his posting history I seem to remember seeing that he identified as a former Tennessee politician, so I always just assumed that the fiscal-pants-crapping song-and-dance was a holdover from that and a terminal failure to recognize that a road forum isn't going to eat his performance up the way his constituents used to. But some of his recent behavior (like posting the same shtick in the FritzOwl thread of all places) is making me second-guess that assumption.
You don't have to imagine–go look.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 07:25:38 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 17, 2021, 07:25:38 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 06:55:21 PM
You're welcome! That image is 65px high, which was the same height as your old avatar. I could make it a tad bigger if you wanted.
If you're talking about the digits, those are smaller; that's a 1956-style shield, which AHTD kept using well into the 2000s (and thus was what they were using the first few times I ventured east, so I still associate it with Arkansas). They only changed to the modern shield design when I-540 was renumbered to I-49.
I think everyone else's is 80x80, but if it gets in the craw of a few OCD types, I wouldn't mind that either as I deal with doctors and lawyers all day!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 18, 2021, 01:15:25 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 18, 2021, 01:15:25 AM
Quote from: MikieTimTI actually am a constituent and have contacted both Sen. Cotton and Sen. Boozman with my idea of numbering it I-50 to make Lowell/Springdale the numeric center of the IHS.
Um, NO.
First off, I think it would be nothing short of ridiculous to give the US-412 route from Tulsa to I-49 the "I-50" designation (or "I-60" for that matter). While the US-412 corridor could be an Interstate quality route, it would be a MINOR, SHORT DISTANCE Interstate route, even if the designation extended West of Tulsa to I-35. That is not a MAJOR route. Most MAJOR Interstate routes span much of the nation, either East-West or North-South. This is just a dinky 2-state route, with only a tiny bit in Arkansas.
As far as the "geographical center" of the Interstate highway system goes, there are only two cities in consideration: Oklahoma City and Kansas City. That's it. My vote is OKC. But I'm in Oklahoma and perhaps a bit biased. Nevertheless, I-35 is THE central MAJOR North-South route in the middle of the Interstate highway system. And I-40 is as major an East-West corridor as any in the system. Given the shift of America's population more to the South and Central part of the US that puts even more emphasis on OKC as a critical hub city of the overall system.
I have my own fictional fantasy version of an "I-50" route, one that would go from Jacksonville, FL up to I-90 in Washington state. From Jacksonville it would overlap US-1 to Waycross, GA then follow US-82 thru Albany, GA up to Columbus. It would go thru Auburn and Birmingham. My idea of "I-50" would eat all of I-22. And it would eat I-555. My "I-50" would go thru Jonesboro and Walnut Ridge. Then it would go into Missouri onto the US-60 corridor and follow that to Springfield. The highway would multiplex with I-44 just a smidge to then go North of Carthage and Joplin on the way to Wichita. Then the route would go West to Dodge City where it would meet up with US-50, and both would co-exist well into Colorado. My "I-50" would cross I-25 in Pueblo, then go thru Cañon City and over to Grand Junction. That would result in a I-50/I-70 multiplex to the US-6 split in Green River, UT. Then "I-50" would upgrade US-6 from there up to I-15 in Provo. Then one could end that version of "I-50" there or have it overlap I-84 and I-82 to get into Washington state. Even if this concept of "I-50" made it from Jacksonville, FL to Provo, UT it would be one hell of an Interstate route.
Aside from all that fictional territory, the US-412 route as an Interstate highway really has only two legit options, either "I-46" or "I-48".
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 18, 2021, 01:21:47 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 18, 2021, 01:21:47 AM
I-30, I-45.
I don't see much issue using the I-50 or I-60 designations, given there's not any good place for their usage on any major east-west corridor.
Sure, I-64 could make a good I-60, but let's not change designations after being established for 70 years now.
I don't see much issue using the I-50 or I-60 designations, given there's not any good place for their usage on any major east-west corridor.
Sure, I-64 could make a good I-60, but let's not change designations after being established for 70 years now.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 18, 2021, 01:25:44 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 18, 2021, 01:25:44 AM
There less things wrong with US-412 being re-numbered as I-46 or I-48. That would actually be much more sensible in relation to I-44 going thru Tulsa.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 05:24:53 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 05:24:53 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you’re just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I’m almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Way back in his posting history I seem to remember seeing that he identified as a former Tennessee politician, so I always just assumed that the fiscal-pants-crapping song-and-dance was a holdover from that and a terminal failure to recognize that a road forum isn't going to eat his performance up the way his constituents used to. But some of his recent behavior (like posting the same shtick in the FritzOwl thread of all places) is making me second-guess that assumption.
I was a former Tennessee politician. I was duly elected by the people and I did save the taxpayers money whilst in office. I am actually considering another run next cycle.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 06:46:02 AM
Post by: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 06:46:02 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 05:24:53 AMWhat office did you hold?Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Way back in his posting history I seem to remember seeing that he identified as a former Tennessee politician, so I always just assumed that the fiscal-pants-crapping song-and-dance was a holdover from that and a terminal failure to recognize that a road forum isn't going to eat his performance up the way his constituents used to. But some of his recent behavior (like posting the same shtick in the FritzOwl thread of all places) is making me second-guess that assumption.
I was a former Tennessee politician. I was duly elected by the people and I did save the taxpayers money whilst in office. I am actually considering another run next cycle.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 12:40:40 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 12:40:40 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 06:46:02 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 05:24:53 AMWhat office did you hold?Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Way back in his posting history I seem to remember seeing that he identified as a former Tennessee politician, so I always just assumed that the fiscal-pants-crapping song-and-dance was a holdover from that and a terminal failure to recognize that a road forum isn't going to eat his performance up the way his constituents used to. But some of his recent behavior (like posting the same shtick in the FritzOwl thread of all places) is making me second-guess that assumption.
I was a former Tennessee politician. I was duly elected by the people and I did save the taxpayers money whilst in office. I am actually considering another run next cycle.
Why is that germane?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: triplemultiplex on June 18, 2021, 04:39:17 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on June 18, 2021, 04:39:17 PM
Drainage commissioner!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: NE2 on June 18, 2021, 07:08:17 PM
Post by: NE2 on June 18, 2021, 07:08:17 PM
Catcatcher.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 18, 2021, 09:40:36 PM
Post by: sparker on June 18, 2021, 09:40:36 PM
If we're done (for the present) beating up on Dr. No, an observation might be a bit of a mood change. Looking at the 412 corridor east of Tulsa (GSV), whoever configured the alignment did a bang-up job regarding the #1 obstacle to upgrading an existing facility -- they kept private access away from the facility, at least as far as the west end of the Cherokee pike. East of there, from the east end of the turnpike (they might want to reconfigure that interchange to favor on/off pike movement) to West Siloam, there is private access, but everything is set back far enough to deploy frontage roads until the town itself is reached, at which point some sort of bypass would be required. I understand that Siloam is becoming a regional retirement location, with extensive tract development extending away from present US 412; a solution will have to be devised that's locally acceptable (pardon me for being Captain Obvious here). Chances are ARDOT will prefer something that will tie in to AR 612, so that would point to a more northern bypass of the Siloam area. Nevertheless, the fact that the upgrades west of the pike would be relatively straightforward and not require new-terrain acquisition except for interchanges and overcrossings bodes well for the corridor project's prospects.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 09:46:36 PM
Post by: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 09:46:36 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 12:40:40 PMSo...Class Treasurer.Quote from: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 06:46:02 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 05:24:53 AMWhat office did you hold?Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Way back in his posting history I seem to remember seeing that he identified as a former Tennessee politician, so I always just assumed that the fiscal-pants-crapping song-and-dance was a holdover from that and a terminal failure to recognize that a road forum isn't going to eat his performance up the way his constituents used to. But some of his recent behavior (like posting the same shtick in the FritzOwl thread of all places) is making me second-guess that assumption.
I was a former Tennessee politician. I was duly elected by the people and I did save the taxpayers money whilst in office. I am actually considering another run next cycle.
Why is that germane?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on June 19, 2021, 12:49:11 AM
Post by: US 89 on June 19, 2021, 12:49:11 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 12:40:40 PMQuote from: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 06:46:02 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 18, 2021, 05:24:53 AMWhat office did you hold?Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Way back in his posting history I seem to remember seeing that he identified as a former Tennessee politician, so I always just assumed that the fiscal-pants-crapping song-and-dance was a holdover from that and a terminal failure to recognize that a road forum isn't going to eat his performance up the way his constituents used to. But some of his recent behavior (like posting the same shtick in the FritzOwl thread of all places) is making me second-guess that assumption.
I was a former Tennessee politician. I was duly elected by the people and I did save the taxpayers money whilst in office. I am actually considering another run next cycle.
Why is that germane?
... because he was curious about it?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 20, 2021, 12:52:32 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 20, 2021, 12:52:32 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 18, 2021, 09:40:36 PM
If we're done (for the present) beating up on Dr. No, an observation might be a bit of a mood change. Looking at the 412 corridor east of Tulsa (GSV), whoever configured the alignment did a bang-up job regarding the #1 obstacle to upgrading an existing facility -- they kept private access away from the facility, at least as far as the west end of the Cherokee pike. East of there, from the east end of the turnpike (they might want to reconfigure that interchange to favor on/off pike movement) to West Siloam, there is private access, but everything is set back far enough to deploy frontage roads until the town itself is reached, at which point some sort of bypass would be required. I understand that Siloam is becoming a regional retirement location, with extensive tract development extending away from present US 412; a solution will have to be devised that's locally acceptable (pardon me for being Captain Obvious here). Chances are ARDOT will prefer something that will tie in to AR 612, so that would point to a more northern bypass of the Siloam area. Nevertheless, the fact that the upgrades west of the pike would be relatively straightforward and not require new-terrain acquisition except for interchanges and overcrossings bodes well for the corridor project's prospects.
As far as the Arkansas mileage east of an eventual Siloam Springs Bypass, a tie in with AR-612 before takes its big bend to the south to tie back into US-412 would make for a more direct facility than converting the current US-412 between Old Highway 68 and where bypass of Siloam Springs would take a swing south. However, the easiest path between Siloam Springs and Tontitown has pretty much been used. Most of the terrain straight west of AR-612 is hollows and creeks, so not as easy as the Illinois River valley to push through. There's also the Logan Cave National Wildlife Refuge that would require a fairly large swing north of to prevent oil polluting the Karst ground that feeds the caves in the area that are home to Ozark Cavefish that aren't found anywhere else. There's enough environmental types around here that would raise a stink that it's more likely that access roads/overpasses are utilized on the already 4-laned US-412 to convert to limited access and keep traffic to the south/downstream of that sensitive area. At the time of this writing, there's still virtually no development between Old AR 68's eastern end and about a 1/4 mile east of the airport in Siloam Springs, so it wouldn't take many overpasses/exits and access roads for that stretch anyway to make a limited access facility out of it. Biggest hurdle is Siloam Springs and completing the western segment of AR-612/US-412 Bypass.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Anthony_JK on June 21, 2021, 12:20:06 PM
Post by: Anthony_JK on June 21, 2021, 12:20:06 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 07:07:29 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 07:00:08 PMFritzown and Avalanche would be hilarious to see as two challengers: when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 05:57:43 PM
^^^^ you're just now starting to think that!?!! Lololol.. it took my about seeing 5-6 of his posts to come to that conclusion. I'm almost certain he is. I wonder what his opinion on the billion dollar I-69 project in Texas is? Or I am VERY interested to know what he thinks about the Port to Plains Corridor.
Way back in his posting history I seem to remember seeing that he identified as a former Tennessee politician, so I always just assumed that the fiscal-pants-crapping song-and-dance was a holdover from that and a terminal failure to recognize that a road forum isn't going to eat his performance up the way his constituents used to. But some of his recent behavior (like posting the same shtick in the FritzOwl thread of all places) is making me second-guess that assumption.
More like when a stoppable force meets a movable object.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 21, 2021, 01:09:24 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 21, 2021, 01:09:24 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PMHeavier traffic volumes often cause conflict with right turning traffic and crossover traffic at minor streets. Interchanges, overpasses, and frontage roads eliminate the conflicts, keep local traffic on a local traffic grid, and through traffic an uninterrupted path of travel. It's also easier for that local traffic to enter into the through route.
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: I-55 on June 23, 2021, 10:16:59 PM
Post by: I-55 on June 23, 2021, 10:16:59 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
In order to make a free flow US-412 in the state of Arkansas it will require a new alignment because there's too much existing traffic control in Siloam and Tontitown, which will be bypassed by a freeway AR 612. Any bypass of Siloam would probably hook into the Cherokee Tpk as well so that leaves the segment of 412 between the west end of the Cherokee and I-44, which is 27 miles, or only 16% of the proposed route distance in OK. In the name of consistency of route expectations this segment ought to be upgraded, and with the aforementioned ROW and terrain situation it would not be as expensive as most projects of this type.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 24, 2021, 07:38:25 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 24, 2021, 07:38:25 AM
Quote from: I-55 on June 23, 2021, 10:16:59 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
In order to make a free flow US-412 in the state of Arkansas it will require a new alignment because there's too much existing traffic control in Siloam and Tontitown, which will be bypassed by a freeway AR 612. Any bypass of Siloam would probably hook into the Cherokee Tpk as well so that leaves the segment of 412 between the west end of the Cherokee and I-44, which is 27 miles, or only 16% of the proposed route distance in OK. In the name of consistency of route expectations this segment ought to be upgraded, and with the aforementioned ROW and terrain situation it would not be as expensive as most projects of this type.
Well I am sure that these folks bought here because there is no Interstate in their respective backyards.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 01:05:48 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 01:05:48 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 24, 2021, 07:38:25 AMQuote from: I-55 on June 23, 2021, 10:16:59 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
In order to make a free flow US-412 in the state of Arkansas it will require a new alignment because there's too much existing traffic control in Siloam and Tontitown, which will be bypassed by a freeway AR 612. Any bypass of Siloam would probably hook into the Cherokee Tpk as well so that leaves the segment of 412 between the west end of the Cherokee and I-44, which is 27 miles, or only 16% of the proposed route distance in OK. In the name of consistency of route expectations this segment ought to be upgraded, and with the aforementioned ROW and terrain situation it would not be as expensive as most projects of this type.
Well I am sure that these folks bought here because there is no Interstate in their respective backyards.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664)
And there were probably deer that settled there at one point because there were no humans in their respective backyards.
Who gives a damn?
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 24, 2021, 01:20:03 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 24, 2021, 01:20:03 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 24, 2021, 07:38:25 AMWell, they might be in luck, because an interstate highway bypass would likely be built around the northern side of town.Quote from: I-55 on June 23, 2021, 10:16:59 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
In order to make a free flow US-412 in the state of Arkansas it will require a new alignment because there's too much existing traffic control in Siloam and Tontitown, which will be bypassed by a freeway AR 612. Any bypass of Siloam would probably hook into the Cherokee Tpk as well so that leaves the segment of 412 between the west end of the Cherokee and I-44, which is 27 miles, or only 16% of the proposed route distance in OK. In the name of consistency of route expectations this segment ought to be upgraded, and with the aforementioned ROW and terrain situation it would not be as expensive as most projects of this type.
Well I am sure that these folks bought here because there is no Interstate in their respective backyards.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664)
And either way... who cares? In the end, the new route is either not affecting their property directly, or if it is, they will be compensated. It's a pretty typical process for new construction or when right of way acquisition is involved.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 24, 2021, 01:20:54 PM
Post by: sparker on June 24, 2021, 01:20:54 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 01:05:48 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 24, 2021, 07:38:25 AMQuote from: I-55 on June 23, 2021, 10:16:59 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
In order to make a free flow US-412 in the state of Arkansas it will require a new alignment because there's too much existing traffic control in Siloam and Tontitown, which will be bypassed by a freeway AR 612. Any bypass of Siloam would probably hook into the Cherokee Tpk as well so that leaves the segment of 412 between the west end of the Cherokee and I-44, which is 27 miles, or only 16% of the proposed route distance in OK. In the name of consistency of route expectations this segment ought to be upgraded, and with the aforementioned ROW and terrain situation it would not be as expensive as most projects of this type.
Well I am sure that these folks bought here because there is no Interstate in their respective backyards.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664)
And there were probably deer that settled there at one point because there were no humans in their respective backyards.
Who gives a damn?
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
It's simply a matter of "if argument "A" based on cost isn't gaining traction, then argument "B" regarding potential imposition on NWA residents is substituted". It's obvious this guy functions as one of the more vocal of our resident BANANA's; his reasons for staking out that position are a bit vague as to motivation. Since there's an admirable attempt to leave political beliefs out of these discussions, we'll probably have to do a bit of creative interpolation here. But at least the guy's consistent!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 01:25:53 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 24, 2021, 01:20:54 PM
It's simply a matter of "if argument "A" based on cost isn't gaining traction, then argument "B" regarding potential imposition on NWA residents is substituted". It's obvious this guy functions as one of the more vocal of our resident BANANA's; his reasons for staking out that position are a bit vague as to motivation. Since there's an admirable attempt to leave political beliefs out of these discussions, we'll probably have to do a bit of creative interpolation here. But at least the guy's consistent!
He's a former Tennessee politician. As to why he thinks we need the Tennessee politician fiscal pants-crapping song and dance here, who knows.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 24, 2021, 01:28:54 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 24, 2021, 01:28:54 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 01:25:53 PMIt's almost like he has some sort of political tie or interest to this region or corridor at interest. He's noted before he would be negatively affected by expansion of I-65 which is the reason he opposes it. Not for any sound engineering reasons of course, or needs of the motoring public, which he then just disregards as the existing conditions are acceptable with no evidence to support his claims. He'll even say taking an alternative route to avoid the interstate is something he'll do, then say that's why the interstate is acceptable.Quote from: sparker on June 24, 2021, 01:20:54 PM
It's simply a matter of "if argument "A" based on cost isn't gaining traction, then argument "B" regarding potential imposition on NWA residents is substituted". It's obvious this guy functions as one of the more vocal of our resident BANANA's; his reasons for staking out that position are a bit vague as to motivation. Since there's an admirable attempt to leave political beliefs out of these discussions, we'll probably have to do a bit of creative interpolation here. But at least the guy's consistent!
He's a former Tennessee politician. As to why he thinks we need the Tennessee politician fiscal pants-crapping song and dance here, who knows.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: In_Correct on June 24, 2021, 01:58:33 PM
Post by: In_Correct on June 24, 2021, 01:58:33 PM
A Border Line Sock Puppet?
Also I never liked the "Not In My Back Yard" phrase. Nothing is in their back yards. Not even close! If they expanded Bus routes are they going to act as if Buses are parking in their back yards?
As for property loss: it is replaced with financial compensation so they can buy even more property. And if they have plenty of money, which they often do, they could move their houses to their new property as well.
... not unlike that Northern Exposure episode where Maurice J. Minnifield moved his house.
Also I never liked the "Not In My Back Yard" phrase. Nothing is in their back yards. Not even close! If they expanded Bus routes are they going to act as if Buses are parking in their back yards?
As for property loss: it is replaced with financial compensation so they can buy even more property. And if they have plenty of money, which they often do, they could move their houses to their new property as well.
... not unlike that Northern Exposure episode where Maurice J. Minnifield moved his house.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 24, 2021, 03:07:56 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 24, 2021, 03:07:56 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 24, 2021, 01:20:03 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 24, 2021, 07:38:25 AMWell, they might be in luck, because an interstate highway bypass would likely be built around the northern side of town.Quote from: I-55 on June 23, 2021, 10:16:59 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
In order to make a free flow US-412 in the state of Arkansas it will require a new alignment because there's too much existing traffic control in Siloam and Tontitown, which will be bypassed by a freeway AR 612. Any bypass of Siloam would probably hook into the Cherokee Tpk as well so that leaves the segment of 412 between the west end of the Cherokee and I-44, which is 27 miles, or only 16% of the proposed route distance in OK. In the name of consistency of route expectations this segment ought to be upgraded, and with the aforementioned ROW and terrain situation it would not be as expensive as most projects of this type.
Well I am sure that these folks bought here because there is no Interstate in their respective backyards.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664)
And either way... who cares? In the end, the new route is either not affecting their property directly, or if it is, they will be compensated. It's a pretty typical process for new construction or when right of way acquisition is involved.
Topographically, it'd be much easier to develop a bypass around the north end of Smith Field and run close to Davidson Rd., then try to follow the Flint Creek valley as much as is practical back to the current eastern terminus of the Cherokee Turnpike. You'll notice if you look at Google Maps that all of the roads on the north side of town tend to run either N/S or E/W because it is flat there, however, that is also the same draw for residential development, which is rapidly expanding that way. South of Siloam Springs where the previous link alluded to, is not conducive for road development as it's mostly hollows leading down into the Illinois River valley. Not impossible to develop through, but more expensive than around the north end as long as it happens before it becomes more heavily developed.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 24, 2021, 03:20:04 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 24, 2021, 03:20:04 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 24, 2021, 07:38:25 AMQuote from: I-55 on June 23, 2021, 10:16:59 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
In order to make a free flow US-412 in the state of Arkansas it will require a new alignment because there's too much existing traffic control in Siloam and Tontitown, which will be bypassed by a freeway AR 612. Any bypass of Siloam would probably hook into the Cherokee Tpk as well so that leaves the segment of 412 between the west end of the Cherokee and I-44, which is 27 miles, or only 16% of the proposed route distance in OK. In the name of consistency of route expectations this segment ought to be upgraded, and with the aforementioned ROW and terrain situation it would not be as expensive as most projects of this type.
Well I am sure that these folks bought here because there is no Interstate in their respective backyards.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1529665,-94.5365398,3a,75y,243.35h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfHZz92BSY6TC36z3VWNTVA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D177.10088%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664)
There's no Interstate in my backyard either currently, but live anywhere in a growing area long enough, and there starts to be plans to change that eventually. There is likely to be a western beltway in NWA in 20 years or so when they max out the I-49 corridor to 8 lanes. And that beltway would be almost certainly within 2 miles of my home, so that would certainly change the environment of my neighborhood. Much as we'd like, there's only so much you can do to stand in the way of progress. Seclusion within 8 miles of any existing major highway in a growing area is fleeting at best. Just have to take your increased property value and hop a little further down the road to start the process over if unable to adapt to the changes.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 24, 2021, 03:46:22 PM
Post by: sparker on June 24, 2021, 03:46:22 PM
You know, I'm beginning to think that our erstwhile naysaying "former TN politician" had, at one point, a piece of property acquired via eminent domain -- possibly for a freeway or expressway ROW (maybe even I-840) and is, to say the least, soured on the developmental process (he's now chiming in with the IN/I-69 thread claiming IN 37 was sufficient -- talk about too little too late!).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 03:49:48 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 03:49:48 PM
I think it's more likely he's one of those "starve the beast" types that gets indignant if the government spends a nickel on anything that doesn't directly benefit him.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 24, 2021, 04:19:21 PM
Post by: sparker on June 24, 2021, 04:19:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 03:49:48 PM
I think it's more likely he's one of those "starve the beast" types that gets indignant if the government spends a nickel on anything that doesn't directly benefit him.
....and obviously he sees no benefit in much of anything beyond a 2-lane (if that!) road in his vicinity (hence his objections to improvements in so-called "pristine" areas). I'd think a horse track would suit his criteria just fine!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: In_Correct on June 24, 2021, 09:40:08 PM
Post by: In_Correct on June 24, 2021, 09:40:08 PM
A Horse Track might make him satisfied,
As long as The Horse Track is not funded by The Government.
As long as The Horse Track is not funded by The Government.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 25, 2021, 09:49:10 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 25, 2021, 09:49:10 AM
Quote from: sparker on June 24, 2021, 04:19:21 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 03:49:48 PM
I think it's more likely he's one of those "starve the beast" types that gets indignant if the government spends a nickel on anything that doesn't directly benefit him.
....and obviously he sees no benefit in much of anything beyond a 2-lane (if that!) road in his vicinity (hence his objections to improvements in so-called "pristine" areas). I'd think a horse track would suit his criteria just fine!
Likely retired or otherwise not required to endure commutes like many here. When traffic isn't an impediment to timely trips to where you have to be, then why would you want taxpayer-funded improvements? It's like Bella Vista Village up here in NWA. It took a wholesale demographic change before what was originally a retirement community elected to build the first school in the city, obviously funded with property tax revenue. Folks on fixed incomes in their twilight years have nothing but time on their hands to fight tooth and nail against change of any sort, but if an area is nice and cheap enough, it eventually draws younger folks too, with all of their infrastructural needs as well not too far behind. In this case, it brought so many that there's dozens of miles of mountain bike trails cut all over Bella Vista with a tie-in to the Razorback Greenway for access to most of the rest in NWA.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2021, 03:58:28 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2021, 03:58:28 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on June 25, 2021, 09:49:10 AMThat logic is no different than claiming "why should I have to spend money for public schools if I have no kids." It's selfish and ridiculous.Quote from: sparker on June 24, 2021, 04:19:21 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 03:49:48 PM
I think it's more likely he's one of those "starve the beast" types that gets indignant if the government spends a nickel on anything that doesn't directly benefit him.
....and obviously he sees no benefit in much of anything beyond a 2-lane (if that!) road in his vicinity (hence his objections to improvements in so-called "pristine" areas). I'd think a horse track would suit his criteria just fine!
Likely retired or otherwise not required to endure commutes like many here. When traffic isn't an impediment to timely trips to where you have to be, then why would you want taxpayer-funded improvements? It's like Bella Vista Village up here in NWA. It took a wholesale demographic change before what was originally a retirement community elected to build the first school in the city, obviously funded with property tax revenue. Folks on fixed incomes in their twilight years have nothing but time on their hands to fight tooth and nail against change of any sort, but if an area is nice and cheap enough, it eventually draws younger folks too, with all of their infrastructural needs as well not too far behind. In this case, it brought so many that there's dozens of miles of mountain bike trails cut all over Bella Vista with a tie-in to the Razorback Greenway for access to most of the rest in NWA.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Tom958 on June 27, 2021, 06:47:08 AM
Post by: Tom958 on June 27, 2021, 06:47:08 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
Ha, I've created a monster!
That section of US 412 is nothing like US 412 through Siloam Springs, mainly because it doesn't pass near any sizable towns and because the interchanges were built before right-of-way acquisition became much of a problem (not that it is even now).
It is entertaining to visualize US 412 through Siloam Springs being converted into a Jersey freeway, but there's no way it'll ever happen.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on June 27, 2021, 08:26:20 AM
Post by: sparker on June 27, 2021, 08:26:20 AM
Quote from: Tom958 on June 27, 2021, 06:47:08 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
Ha, I've created a monster!
That section of US 412 is nothing like US 412 through Siloam Springs, mainly because it does pass near any sizable towns and because the interchanges were built before right-of-way acquisition became much of a problem (not that it is even now).
It is entertaining to visualize US 412 through Siloam Springs being converted into a Jersey freeway, but there's no way it'll ever happen.
If the Congressional folks proposing the Interstate along US 412 get their wishes, there won't be a "Jersey freeway" deployed in Siloam or anywhere else on the corridor; it'll be a high-speed free-flow facility like the rest of the I-system. Bypassing that town will likely be a PIA for all agencies involved, but even if it's a bit convoluted and/or extended in regards to how far afield it'll be aligned, a plan would eventually materialize -- since most of the rest of the overall corridor is quite straightforward as to where and how it'll be located and configured. Except for Siloam, this corridor is relatively "low-lying fruit"!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 29, 2021, 12:12:28 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 29, 2021, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 27, 2021, 08:26:20 AMQuote from: Tom958 on June 27, 2021, 06:47:08 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights. Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.
Ha, I've created a monster!
That section of US 412 is nothing like US 412 through Siloam Springs, mainly because it does pass near any sizable towns and because the interchanges were built before right-of-way acquisition became much of a problem (not that it is even now).
It is entertaining to visualize US 412 through Siloam Springs being converted into a Jersey freeway, but there's no way it'll ever happen.
If the Congressional folks proposing the Interstate along US 412 get their wishes, there won't be a "Jersey freeway" deployed in Siloam or anywhere else on the corridor; it'll be a high-speed free-flow facility like the rest of the I-system. Bypassing that town will likely be a PIA for all agencies involved, but even if it's a bit convoluted and/or extended in regards to how far afield it'll be aligned, a plan would eventually materialize -- since most of the rest of the overall corridor is quite straightforward as to where and how it'll be located and configured. Except for Siloam, this corridor is relatively "low-lying fruit"!
The section in Arkansas that's 4-laned between the west end of the eventually completed 412 Springdale Bypass on the edge of Tontitown and where a Siloam Springs bypass would logically begin really only needs 7-9 exits/overpasses and very little in the way of access roads as the land north of US-412 can mostly be accessed by Old AR 68, and it's nearly all Ozark Natl. Forest on the south side except around where some exits would need to be for county road crossings. Wouldn't take much to convert the section between bypasses to limited access as a result, so as much as I'd prefer a new terrain connection between the 2 northern bypasses to save 3-4 miles, it's likely not enough miles saved to justify in this case in my opinion. It's only about 10.1 miles of road altogether between the bypasses, so it'd be pretty trivial to convert that stretch.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on July 01, 2021, 06:45:21 PM
Post by: sparker on July 01, 2021, 06:45:21 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding this matter, but is the US 412 Springdale Bypass a separate concept/project from the AR 612 "stub" extending west from I-49? Can't really tell anything from GE/GSV, since it looks like there haven't been any updates posted in recent years; the 612 facility isn't even shown! If anyone can clear this up, it would be greatly appreciated.
Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding this matter, but is the US 412 Springdale Bypass a separate concept/project from the AR 612 "stub" extending west from I-49? Can't really tell anything from GE/GSV, since it looks like there haven't been any updates posted in recent years; the 612 facility isn't even shown! If anyone can clear this up, it would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on July 01, 2021, 06:52:04 PM
Post by: US71 on July 01, 2021, 06:52:04 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 01, 2021, 06:45:21 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding this matter, but is the US 412 Springdale Bypass a separate concept/project from the AR 612 "stub" extending west from I-49? Can't really tell anything from GE/GSV, since it looks like there haven't been any updates posted in recent years; the 612 facility isn't even shown! If anyone can clear this up, it would be greatly appreciated.
AR 612 will eventually be the 412 Springdale bypass. It will connect to current 412 east of Siloam Springs and 412 near Sonora. Right now it's just a connector from AR 112 to -49/US71
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on July 01, 2021, 07:07:30 PM
Post by: sparker on July 01, 2021, 07:07:30 PM
Quote from: US71 on July 01, 2021, 06:52:04 PMQuote from: sparker on July 01, 2021, 06:45:21 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding this matter, but is the US 412 Springdale Bypass a separate concept/project from the AR 612 "stub" extending west from I-49? Can't really tell anything from GE/GSV, since it looks like there haven't been any updates posted in recent years; the 612 facility isn't even shown! If anyone can clear this up, it would be greatly appreciated.
AR 612 will eventually be the 412 Springdale bypass. It will connect to current 412 east of Siloam Springs and 412 near Sonora. Right now it's just a connector from AR 112 to -49/US71
Thanks for the clarification! It didn't seem terribly rational or efficient to have two separate facilities with the same goal. Since it's planned to curve back south to present 412 east of Siloam -- and some posters have suggested that a southern bypass of that town might be more feasible, at least from the standpoint of ROW acquisition and/or ease of construction than looping north of town, the bypass might just be doable without encountering a lot of local opposition.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Tom958 on July 01, 2021, 10:11:41 PM
Post by: Tom958 on July 01, 2021, 10:11:41 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 01, 2021, 06:45:21 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding this matter, but is the US 412 Springdale Bypass a separate concept/project from the AR 612 "stub" extending west from I-49? Can't really tell anything from GE/GSV, since it looks like there haven't been any updates posted in recent years; the 612 facility isn't even shown! If anyone can clear this up, it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.ardot.gov/divisions/environmental/assessments/impact-statements-eis-assesments-ea/springdale-northern-bypass-highway-412/
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
Post by: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AM
Post by: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
Not at this point. It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative. The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes. Can't wait for it to be done. It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112. We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 03, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
Post by: edwaleni on July 03, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
The US-412 Arkansas Study is located here:
https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf (https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf)
I can't repost the entire thing, but it does show $2.1 million FY2021 for ROW acquisition to complete the Springdale Bypass to Tontitown.
As for Siloam Springs, there were program dollars for FY2023 to take a 6 lane proposal from Tontitown west from EIS to the next level of planning.
This is probably why the politicians are waking up and wanting get it named an I route, to secure Fed funding.
https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf (https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf)
I can't repost the entire thing, but it does show $2.1 million FY2021 for ROW acquisition to complete the Springdale Bypass to Tontitown.
As for Siloam Springs, there were program dollars for FY2023 to take a 6 lane proposal from Tontitown west from EIS to the next level of planning.
This is probably why the politicians are waking up and wanting get it named an I route, to secure Fed funding.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on July 03, 2021, 08:43:41 PM
Post by: sparker on July 03, 2021, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 03, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
The US-412 Arkansas Study is located here:
https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf (https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf)
I can't repost the entire thing, but it does show $2.1 million FY2021 for ROW acquisition to complete the Springdale Bypass to Tontitown.
As for Siloam Springs, there were program dollars for FY2023 to take a 6 lane proposal from Tontitown west from EIS to the next level of planning.
This is probably why the politicians are waking up and wanting get it named an I route, to secure Fed funding.
Since US 412 is already part of a high priority corridor -- actually one of the original ISTEA-specified batch (#8) -- it should already be in line for federal funding. Elevating it to future Interstate status would potentially direct considerably more attention to the concept, perhaps even to the point of initiating the exploration of a viable alignment for the Siloam bypass.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PMQuote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
Not at this point. It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative. The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes. Can't wait for it to be done. It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112. We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.
Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built :bigass:
Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.
Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 06, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Post by: edwaleni on July 06, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built :bigass:
Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.
ROW purchase is 2021. Pending funding 2025 for construction.
When complete this will also facilitate the XNA Access Project.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bwana39 on July 06, 2021, 11:00:25 AM
Post by: bwana39 on July 06, 2021, 11:00:25 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 06, 2021, 10:42:42 AMQuote from: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built :bigass:
Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.
ROW purchase is 2021. Pending funding 2025 for construction.
When complete this will also facilitate the XNA Access Project.
It would not surprise me if this project moves ahead of schedule.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on July 06, 2021, 01:05:12 PM
Post by: sparker on July 06, 2021, 01:05:12 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 06, 2021, 11:00:25 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 06, 2021, 10:42:42 AMQuote from: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built :bigass:
Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.
ROW purchase is 2021. Pending funding 2025 for construction.
When complete this will also facilitate the XNA Access Project.
It would not surprise me if this project moves ahead of schedule.
Distinct possibility if the Congressional proposal for Interstate status gets through Congress with the next FY funding package (these days the usual route for such proposals). Once that's settled, it'll be up to the DOT's to follow suit by identifying in-state/local funding matches (including whatever's necessary to expedite or prioritize the project within their internal processes). At that point it will become apparent whether the states are on the same page as their congressional delegation(s) regarding this matter.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 06, 2021, 04:49:28 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 06, 2021, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 06, 2021, 01:05:12 PMQuote from: bwana39 on July 06, 2021, 11:00:25 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 06, 2021, 10:42:42 AMQuote from: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built :bigass:
Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.
ROW purchase is 2021. Pending funding 2025 for construction.
When complete this will also facilitate the XNA Access Project.
It would not surprise me if this project moves ahead of schedule.
Distinct possibility if the Congressional proposal for Interstate status gets through Congress with the next FY funding package (these days the usual route for such proposals). Once that's settled, it'll be up to the DOT's to follow suit by identifying in-state/local funding matches (including whatever's necessary to expedite or prioritize the project within their internal processes). At that point it will become apparent whether the states are on the same page as their congressional delegation(s) regarding this matter.
The CAP extension would likely provide any of Arkansas' matching funds if the fed dollars ever made it through the gauntlet. It's a high priority for the area as US-412 in Springdale has an attrocious LOS with all of the traffic lights and multiplex with US-71B for a few blocks. And as stated, there's a more direct access road to XNA proposed off the bend to the south of the western leg.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PM
Post by: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PMQuote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
Not at this point. It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative. The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes. Can't wait for it to be done. It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112. We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.
Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.
NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.
Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PM
Quote from: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PMQuote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
Not at this point. It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative. The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes. Can't wait for it to be done. It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112. We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.
Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.
NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.
Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.
NWA: Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
Nashville: Conserve funds and allocate as needed with a rainy day fund.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 07, 2021, 03:52:50 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 07, 2021, 03:52:50 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PMQuote from: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PMQuote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
Not at this point. It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative. The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes. Can't wait for it to be done. It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112. We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.
Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.
NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.
Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.
NWA: Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
Nashville: Conserve funds and allocate as needed with a rainy day fund.
Clearly they haven't allocated as needed:
https://www.wsmv.com/traffic/nashville-traffic-congestion-at-all-time-high/article_f3399024-c522-11e9-8d90-f7f7400d2825.html
Since you care so much about people's money:
" It's not just costing us time, it's costing us money, too. In Davidson County, drivers lost $1,221 dollars last year in wasted fuel. "
If you aren't a troll you should really rethink why you're on a forum that loves roads and advocates for roads. I believe there's other forums out there like the Tea Party where toy could happily discuss taxation is theft and all of that garbage.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: hobsini2 on July 07, 2021, 04:02:55 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on July 07, 2021, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 07, 2021, 03:52:50 PMWe have a saying in one circle of friends of mine whenever one friend in particular goes off on his "taxation is evil", "unmitigated capitalism is good" or "Alabama football is great" rants. Feel free to use it Panda.Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PMQuote from: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PMQuote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
Not at this point. It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative. The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes. Can't wait for it to be done. It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112. We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.
Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.
NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.
Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.
NWA: Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
Nashville: Conserve funds and allocate as needed with a rainy day fund.
Clearly they haven't allocated as needed:
https://www.wsmv.com/traffic/nashville-traffic-congestion-at-all-time-high/article_f3399024-c522-11e9-8d90-f7f7400d2825.html
Since you care so much about people's money:
" It's not just costing us time, it's costing us money, too. In Davidson County, drivers lost $1,221 dollars last year in wasted fuel. "
If you aren't a troll you should really rethink why you're on a forum that loves roads and advocates for roads. I believe there's other forums out there like the Tea Party where toy could happily discuss taxation is theft and all of that garbage.
#BootMuke
You're welcome.
We do love our guy Mike Williams though.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on July 08, 2021, 12:52:32 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 08, 2021, 12:52:32 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PM
NWA: Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
It'd be pretty fucking stupid to tax and not spend, or to spend and not tax, now wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: In_Correct on July 08, 2021, 04:16:46 AM
Post by: In_Correct on July 08, 2021, 04:16:46 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PMQuote from: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PMQuote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
Not at this point. It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative. The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes. Can't wait for it to be done. It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112. We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.
Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.
NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.
Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.
NWA: Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
Nashville: Conserve funds and allocate as needed with a rainy day fund.
:angry: This is about a Beautiful Toll Road?! :angry:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on July 08, 2021, 10:08:36 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 08, 2021, 10:08:36 AM
Quote from: In_Correct on July 08, 2021, 04:16:46 AM??? :confused: :confused:Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PMQuote from: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PMQuote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
Not at this point. It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative. The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes. Can't wait for it to be done. It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112. We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.
Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.
NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.
Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.
NWA: Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
Nashville: Conserve funds and allocate as needed with a rainy day fund.
:angry: This is about a Beautiful Toll Road?! :angry:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on July 08, 2021, 12:56:50 PM
Post by: US71 on July 08, 2021, 12:56:50 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
FWIW, a freeway up the mountain to NWA from FT Smith has been proposed since the 1960's. I had a map that showed a proposed highway as an extension of I-540.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 08, 2021, 01:46:53 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 08, 2021, 01:46:53 PM
Quote from: US71 on July 08, 2021, 12:56:50 PMQuote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
FWIW, a freeway up the mountain to NWA from FT Smith has been proposed since the 1960's. I had a map that showed a proposed highway as an extension of I-540.
And for a few years, that's exactly what it was! Kind of still is, until the BVB wraps up in October.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on July 08, 2021, 01:49:09 PM
Post by: sparker on July 08, 2021, 01:49:09 PM
Quote from: US71 on July 08, 2021, 12:56:50 PMQuote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AMQuote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Cool, thanks for the map! Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while! Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?
FWIW, a freeway up the mountain to NWA from FT Smith has been proposed since the 1960's. I had a map that showed a proposed highway as an extension of I-540.
Not in the least bit surprised; the US 71 corridor from KC to Shreveport (with a split south from there to Houston and NOLA) was one of the most glaring omissions of the original Interstate network, likely because of the difficulty of construction in the Ozarks and Ouachitas. And not at all ironically, when the high priority corridor concept came about with 1991's ISTEA, it was the first corridor to be designated -- fortunately, I-49 was already a reality within LA, so it became a logical extension of that. It's likely that if the longer I-69 had not been conceived and legislated, Shreveport (or Texarkana)-Houston would have been added to be mix as an independent corridor (I-47?).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: froggie on July 10, 2021, 10:33:00 AM
Post by: froggie on July 10, 2021, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: sparker on July 08, 2021, 01:49:09 PM
Not in the least bit surprised; the US 71 corridor from KC to Shreveport (with a split south from there to Houston and NOLA) was one of the most glaring omissions of the original Interstate network, likely because of the difficulty of construction in the Ozarks and Ouachitas. And not at all ironically, when the high priority corridor concept came about with 1991's ISTEA, it was the first corridor to be designated -- fortunately, I-49 was already a reality within LA, so it became a logical extension of that. It's likely that if the longer I-69 had not been conceived and legislated, Shreveport (or Texarkana)-Houston would have been added to be mix as an independent corridor (I-47?).
Worth noting that the 48K system studied in the 1940s (approximately 50% larger than the system Congress initially approved) still did not include US 71 between Shreveport and Joplin.
Translation: US 71 really was that minor back when the Interstate system was planned. Nevermind that NWA was basically a backwater back in those days. Didn't really pick up until Sam Walton did his thing.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on July 10, 2021, 11:25:26 AM
Post by: US71 on July 10, 2021, 11:25:26 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 10, 2021, 10:33:00 AMQuote from: sparker on July 08, 2021, 01:49:09 PM
Not in the least bit surprised; the US 71 corridor from KC to Shreveport (with a split south from there to Houston and NOLA) was one of the most glaring omissions of the original Interstate network, likely because of the difficulty of construction in the Ozarks and Ouachitas. And not at all ironically, when the high priority corridor concept came about with 1991's ISTEA, it was the first corridor to be designated -- fortunately, I-49 was already a reality within LA, so it became a logical extension of that. It's likely that if the longer I-69 had not been conceived and legislated, Shreveport (or Texarkana)-Houston would have been added to be mix as an independent corridor (I-47?).
Worth noting that the 48K system studied in the 1940s (approximately 50% larger than the system Congress initially approved) still did not include US 71 between Shreveport and Joplin.
Translation: US 71 really was that minor back when the Interstate system was planned. Nevermind that NWA was basically a backwater back in those days. Didn't really pick up until Sam Walton did his thing.
and to a lesser drgree JB HUnt and Tyson.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on July 10, 2021, 06:39:17 PM
Post by: sparker on July 10, 2021, 06:39:17 PM
Quote from: US71 on July 10, 2021, 11:25:26 AMQuote from: froggie on July 10, 2021, 10:33:00 AMQuote from: sparker on July 08, 2021, 01:49:09 PM
Not in the least bit surprised; the US 71 corridor from KC to Shreveport (with a split south from there to Houston and NOLA) was one of the most glaring omissions of the original Interstate network, likely because of the difficulty of construction in the Ozarks and Ouachitas. And not at all ironically, when the high priority corridor concept came about with 1991's ISTEA, it was the first corridor to be designated -- fortunately, I-49 was already a reality within LA, so it became a logical extension of that. It's likely that if the longer I-69 had not been conceived and legislated, Shreveport (or Texarkana)-Houston would have been added to be mix as an independent corridor (I-47?).
Worth noting that the 48K system studied in the 1940s (approximately 50% larger than the system Congress initially approved) still did not include US 71 between Shreveport and Joplin.
Translation: US 71 really was that minor back when the Interstate system was planned. Nevermind that NWA was basically a backwater back in those days. Didn't really pick up until Sam Walton did his thing.
and to a lesser drgree JB HUnt and Tyson.
Is there a published/available map of that 48K system? If KC-Joplin was included, it would have been to (a) serve Tulsa more directly from KC and/or (b) segue to a corridor down US 69/75, eventually ending up in DFW. I can see MacDonald and company wanting to circumvent the Ozarks and Ouachitas if possible, since aside from Fort Smith, there was virtually nothing there that would serve as a traffic generator or destination (U of A boosters notwithstanding!).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on July 10, 2021, 07:48:07 PM
Post by: US71 on July 10, 2021, 07:48:07 PM
FWIW, 71 north of Carthage has been slowly upgraded for 30+ years. MoDOT just recently replaced probably the two oldest bridges left.
http://bridgehunter.com/mo/barton/bh39898/
http://bridgehunter.com/mo/barton/bh37456/
http://bridgehunter.com/mo/barton/bh39898/
http://bridgehunter.com/mo/barton/bh37456/
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Route66Fan on July 11, 2021, 02:07:11 AM
Post by: Route66Fan on July 11, 2021, 02:07:11 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 10, 2021, 10:33:00 AMI remember reading an article in the Kansas City Star, back around December 2012, when US 71 was redesignated as I-49, where somebody, in their 80's or 90's, mentioned remembering when US 71, between Kansas City, MO & Joplin, MO, was a dirt road. I am guessing that would have been back in the 1920's-1930's.Quote from: sparker on July 08, 2021, 01:49:09 PM
Not in the least bit surprised; the US 71 corridor from KC to Shreveport (with a split south from there to Houston and NOLA) was one of the most glaring omissions of the original Interstate network, likely because of the difficulty of construction in the Ozarks and Ouachitas. And not at all ironically, when the high priority corridor concept came about with 1991's ISTEA, it was the first corridor to be designated -- fortunately, I-49 was already a reality within LA, so it became a logical extension of that. It's likely that if the longer I-69 had not been conceived and legislated, Shreveport (or Texarkana)-Houston would have been added to be mix as an independent corridor (I-47?).
Worth noting that the 48K system studied in the 1940s (approximately 50% larger than the system Congress initially approved) still did not include US 71 between Shreveport and Joplin.
Translation: US 71 really was that minor back when the Interstate system was planned. Nevermind that NWA was basically a backwater back in those days. Didn't really pick up until Sam Walton did his thing.
SM-J737P
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: froggie on July 11, 2021, 09:36:43 AM
Post by: froggie on July 11, 2021, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: sparker on July 10, 2021, 06:39:17 PM
Is there a published/available map of that 48K system? If KC-Joplin was included, it would have been to (a) serve Tulsa more directly from KC and/or (b) segue to a corridor down US 69/75, eventually ending up in DFW. I can see MacDonald and company wanting to circumvent the Ozarks and Ouachitas if possible, since aside from Fort Smith, there was virtually nothing there that would serve as a traffic generator or destination (U of A boosters notwithstanding!).
Yes. Roadfan (http://www.roadfan.com/intreg5.jpg) has the map as directly taken from the 1944 Interregional Highways (https://www.enotrans.org/wp-content/uploads/membersOnly-1944-Interregional-Highways.pdf) report to Congress.
I should have elaborated further earlier, in that US 71 wasn't really proposed north of Joplin either. Between today's I-44 and KC, the map indicates that an Interstate corridor in the 48K system would have followed US 69 instead of US 71, as well as continued south of I-44 to DFW, but that would have just as easily met your "serve KC-Tulsa more directly" comment.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on July 11, 2021, 02:30:22 PM
Post by: sparker on July 11, 2021, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 11, 2021, 09:36:43 AMQuote from: sparker on July 10, 2021, 06:39:17 PM
Is there a published/available map of that 48K system? If KC-Joplin was included, it would have been to (a) serve Tulsa more directly from KC and/or (b) segue to a corridor down US 69/75, eventually ending up in DFW. I can see MacDonald and company wanting to circumvent the Ozarks and Ouachitas if possible, since aside from Fort Smith, there was virtually nothing there that would serve as a traffic generator or destination (U of A boosters notwithstanding!).
Yes. Roadfan (http://www.roadfan.com/intreg5.jpg) has the map as directly taken from the 1944 Interregional Highways (https://www.enotrans.org/wp-content/uploads/membersOnly-1944-Interregional-Highways.pdf) report to Congress.
I should have elaborated further earlier, in that US 71 wasn't really proposed north of Joplin either. Between today's I-44 and KC, the map indicates that an Interstate corridor in the 48K system would have followed US 69 instead of US 71, as well as continued south of I-44 to DFW, but that would have just as easily met your "serve KC-Tulsa more directly" comment.
Definitely! As far as connectiveness in that region is concerned, the US 69 and US 71 corridors south from KC metro to then-US 66 are reasonably interchangeable (boosters from the separate states notwithstanding). This system, close to the total system mileage today, is considerably better thought-out, particularly in the Midwest, than the 41K version eventually adopted in 1956. But still no I-77 corridor generally along US 21 -- although portions of the originally planned I-73 route (Greensboro-Roanoke and Huntington-Columbus-Toledo) show up. Interestingly, some 70-75 years later, many of the routes -- or portions thereof -- excised from the 48K system have been reinstated by post-chargeable additions (I-22, for instance, and, surprisingly, the I-11 corridor from Kingman to Las Vegas, only because Las Vegas was a pretty small town (about 20-25K population) when this system was cobbled together). But it was also interesting to note the two (US 99 and US 101) corridors between Southern and Northern California coexisting! Interstate-grade construction on the latter, especially along the Santa Barbara seacoast "shelf" and over the Cuesta grade, even to '57 criteria, would have been both physically demanding and likely the subject, years later, of environmental criticism; DOH would have had to expedite construction quickly during the early Interstate years (as they did the original Interstate portion of the L.A. freeway network) to avoid the social and legal issues that emerged by the '70's.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 12, 2021, 10:08:57 AM
Post by: edwaleni on July 12, 2021, 10:08:57 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51307638085_47b1e3891e_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sparker on July 12, 2021, 09:02:33 PM
Post by: sparker on July 12, 2021, 09:02:33 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 12, 2021, 10:08:57 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51307638085_47b1e3891e_b.jpg)
Funny, I don't see a "5-lane" configuration broken out in the map legend; and "3-lane" could either mean passing lanes or a center-turn facility. Besides that, any idea regarding the actual format the 4-lane sections entail? -- i.e., are they controlled access in any form, twinned, or simply undivided arteries? Normally, I'd just peruse GE/GSV, but that area hasn't been updated in years!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 13, 2021, 09:36:52 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 13, 2021, 09:36:52 AM
Quote from: sparker on July 12, 2021, 09:02:33 PMQuote from: edwaleni on July 12, 2021, 10:08:57 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51307638085_47b1e3891e_b.jpg)
Funny, I don't see a "5-lane" configuration broken out in the map legend; and "3-lane" could either mean passing lanes or a center-turn facility. Besides that, any idea regarding the actual format the 4-lane sections entail? -- i.e., are they controlled access in any form, twinned, or simply undivided arteries? Normally, I'd just peruse GE/GSV, but that area hasn't been updated in years!
I drive this stretch regularly. The 3 lane sections indicated are all passing/climb lanes. Glad they are getting around to another one in eastern Boone County (F) as I'm always behind a bunch for 15 miles there. They really need another passing lane in eastern Baxter County as well. Those two would knock another 5-7 minutes off the trip. Most helpful would be a northern bypass of Harrison. That in itself would knock 10-12 minutes off the trip. Unfortunately, not planned at this time, however, so a very long way from happening.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 13, 2021, 09:37:39 AM
Post by: edwaleni on July 13, 2021, 09:37:39 AM
Quote from: sparker on July 12, 2021, 09:02:33 PMQuote from: edwaleni on July 12, 2021, 10:08:57 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51307638085_47b1e3891e_b.jpg)
Funny, I don't see a "5-lane" configuration broken out in the map legend; and "3-lane" could either mean passing lanes or a center-turn facility. Besides that, any idea regarding the actual format the 4-lane sections entail? -- i.e., are they controlled access in any form, twinned, or simply undivided arteries? Normally, I'd just peruse GE/GSV, but that area hasn't been updated in years!
All I could find outside the study was a MOU from 1990 that US-412 would use existing ROW from Tontitown west to the OK border. Other than that no engineering details.
Here is the study I am clipping from.
https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf (https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on July 16, 2021, 09:57:20 AM
Post by: bugo on July 16, 2021, 09:57:20 AM
Quote from: Route66Fan on July 11, 2021, 02:07:11 AM
I remember reading an article in the Kansas City Star, back around December 2012, when US 71 was redesignated as I-49, where somebody, in their 80's or 90's, mentioned remembering when US 71, between Kansas City, MO & Joplin, MO, was a dirt road. I am guessing that would have been back in the 1920's-1930's.
The last stretch of US 71 to be paved between Kansas City and Joplin was the short stretch between Nevada and Milo (today's BL 49 and Route K) which was paved in 1930.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on August 09, 2021, 11:00:24 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 09, 2021, 11:00:24 PM
The US-412 upgrade got merged into the pending infrastructure bill.
QuoteSEC. 11514. HIGH PRIORITY CORRIDORS ON THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM.
(a) HIGH PRIORITY CORRIDORS.–Section 1105(c) of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991 (Public Law 102—240; 105 Stat. 2032; 133 Stat. 3018) is amended by adding at the end the following:
[...]
(96) The route that generally follows United States Route 412 from its intersection with Interstate Route 35 in Noble County, Oklahoma, passing through Tulsa, Oklahoma, to its intersection with Interstate Route 49 in Springdale, Arkansas.
[...]
(b) DESIGNATION AS FUTURE INTERSTATES.–Section 1105(e)(5)(A) of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991 (Public Law 102—240; 109 Stat. 597; 133 Stat. 3018) is amended in the first sentence by striking "˜"˜and subsection (c)(91)'' and inserting "˜"˜subsection (c)(91), subsection (c)(92), subsection 6 (c)(93)(A), subsection (c)(94), subsection (c)(95), subsection (c)(96), and subsection (c)(97)''.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 09, 2021, 11:06:01 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 09, 2021, 11:06:01 PM
Nice! I hope this happens sooner than later.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on August 09, 2021, 11:09:23 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 09, 2021, 11:09:23 PM
It will be interesting to see if the brand new shiny SH-312 gets replaced with a 3di or if it just stays a state route turnpike for the rest of time.
A 3di in Stillwater of all places! What times we live in!
A 3di in Stillwater of all places! What times we live in!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on August 10, 2021, 08:15:01 AM
Post by: bugo on August 10, 2021, 08:15:01 AM
This is a little off topic, but to continue on mainline US 412 at the beginning of at least two bypasses, you must take a hard right or a hard left to get on and off at least one end of the bypass. Mountain Home and Paragould are the two I'm thinking of. Why aren't they building these bypasses with seamless connections to the through route at each end? Oklahoma did the same thing with the US 70 Durant bypass. These are going to be choke points when traffic counts go up enough.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on August 10, 2021, 08:31:09 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on August 10, 2021, 08:31:09 AM
Quote from: bugo on August 10, 2021, 08:15:01 AM
This is a little off topic, but to continue on mainline US 412 at the beginning of at least two bypasses, you must take a hard right or a hard left to get on and off at least one end of the bypass. Mountain Home and Paragould are the two I'm thinking of. Why aren't they building these bypasses with seamless connections to the through route at each end? Oklahoma did the same thing with the US 70 Durant bypass. These are going to be choke points when traffic counts go up enough.
This infrastructure bill only addresses as far as Springdale/Lowell eastward. Those bypasses you refer to don't connect to limited access facilities now, so the current endpoints of them aren't the final ones anyway should limited access ever actually make it past NWA in our lifetimes. The Fayetteville Bypass (now Fulbright Expressway) was similar in nature until I-540/I-49 was constructed in its various phases at near its original endpoints.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: okroads on August 10, 2021, 10:50:29 AM
Post by: okroads on August 10, 2021, 10:50:29 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 09, 2021, 11:09:23 PM
It will be interesting to see if the brand new shiny SH-312 gets replaced with a 3di or if it just stays a state route turnpike for the rest of time.
A 3di in Stillwater of all places! What times we live in!
As long as ODOT doesn't pull a Caltrans and number it I-312... [ducks]
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on August 10, 2021, 01:01:48 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 10, 2021, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: okroads on August 10, 2021, 10:50:29 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 09, 2021, 11:09:23 PM
It will be interesting to see if the brand new shiny SH-312 gets replaced with a 3di or if it just stays a state route turnpike for the rest of time.
A 3di in Stillwater of all places! What times we live in!
As long as ODOT doesn't pull a Caltrans and number it I-312... [ducks]
Nah, if anything they'll find a way to number it I-240....
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on August 10, 2021, 01:47:59 PM
Post by: rte66man on August 10, 2021, 01:47:59 PM
Quote from: bugo on August 10, 2021, 08:15:01 AM
This is a little off topic, but to continue on mainline US 412 at the beginning of at least two bypasses, you must take a hard right or a hard left to get on and off at least one end of the bypass. Mountain Home and Paragould are the two I'm thinking of. Why aren't they building these bypasses with seamless connections to the through route at each end? Oklahoma did the same thing with the US 70 Durant bypass. These are going to be choke points when traffic counts go up enough.
I don't know this for certain but I seem to recall it had to do with both the land acquisition at the western end plus a dream that the bypass could extend a little north then bend west to the eastern shore of Lake Texoma. Again, I can't find any proof for that.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 18, 2021, 12:35:26 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 18, 2021, 12:35:26 AM
Been meaning to do this for a while, just now got around to it:
(https://i.imgur.com/Gv6B1Sf.png)
The midpoint of the line connecting Springdale and the western terminus of the proposed interstate would be about halfway between where a theoretical grid-perfect I-46 and I-48 intersect I-35. The actual western terminus of the proposed interstate would be just about at the I-48 mark. Therefore, I believe this interstate should be designated I-48.
But I-50 would be close too. :D
(https://i.imgur.com/Gv6B1Sf.png)
The midpoint of the line connecting Springdale and the western terminus of the proposed interstate would be about halfway between where a theoretical grid-perfect I-46 and I-48 intersect I-35. The actual western terminus of the proposed interstate would be just about at the I-48 mark. Therefore, I believe this interstate should be designated I-48.
But I-50 would be close too. :D
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 21, 2021, 12:45:24 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 21, 2021, 12:45:24 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 18, 2021, 12:35:26 AM
Been meaning to do this for a while, just now got around to it:
(https://i.imgur.com/Gv6B1Sf.png)
The midpoint of the line connecting Springdale and the western terminus of the proposed interstate would be about halfway between where a theoretical grid-perfect I-46 and I-48 intersect I-35. The actual western terminus of the proposed interstate would be just about at the I-48 mark. Therefore, I believe this interstate should be designated I-48.
But I-50 would be close too. :D
And since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50. It was originally envisioned to go east to Nashville although they just changed the western endpoint from Tulsa to I-35. It'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane. It's pretty sparse out in that part of OK/NM. Just drove it last week on on an indirect roadtrip with my brother to take his old 4Runner back up to Seattle from NWA. Managed to skip both Kansas and Texas, although I couldn't pass up to the opportunity to take one step into Texas at the marker right off the edge of US-412. My brother didn't have the same interest for some reason and was good with bypassing TX altogether. Actually took several non-interstate routes on the trip, which made for a more scenic and relaxing vacation.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 12:39:32 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 12:39:32 PM
Quote from: MikieTimTAnd since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.
I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.
Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in one of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.
Quote from: MikieTimTIt'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.
US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 21, 2021, 03:06:38 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 21, 2021, 03:06:38 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 12:39:32 PMQuote from: MikieTimTAnd since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.
I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.
Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.Quote from: MikieTimTIt'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.
US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.
And if Springdale/Lowell is where it ended, I'd agree, but was intended to go all the way to Nashville, which adds quite a bit of mileage. That's not to say any of us will live long enough to see that come to fruit, but it was part of the original HPC designation. The part from Tulsa to I-35 is what was added on a couple of months ago, so the corridor's original endpoints were at significant metros. A centrally located E/W corridor with only I-70 to the north parallel for most of the route that ends in 2 *5 Interstates (with another intersecting) is greater than ending on 2 *0 Interstates. Regardless, it's all fictional until a designation is codified in a resolution. Quite frankly, other than pushing to Harrison, I think US-412 is functionally adequate at this time with the addition of some bypasses and about 3-5 more climb lanes. I think an Interstate (or even 4-lane US 412) east of Harrison until the Mississippi River valley would ruin the character of North Central Arkansas and make it too accessible. There's more to a state than its economy. I'm sure I'm in the minority, though.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 21, 2021, 03:22:17 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 21, 2021, 03:22:17 PM
Just for shits and giggles if there was a coast to coast I-50 it would absolutely make sense that this segment be a part of it. I don't see the issue of an I-50 designation. Not that I'd ever expect it to be a coast to coast interstate ever but hell draft up a fantasy plan of one that goes from the east cost and ends up following 491 to terminate in Monticello(UT) to another future interstate that should be extended(I-17). Then build the parts that could actually be justified in building. No reason to do it all at once now. Many other bigger priorities exist.
But in the grand scheme of things I don't see the issue with I-50 even if it only exists between Tulsa and Springdale for the time being.
But in the grand scheme of things I don't see the issue with I-50 even if it only exists between Tulsa and Springdale for the time being.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: CoreySamson on September 21, 2021, 03:50:21 PM
Post by: CoreySamson on September 21, 2021, 03:50:21 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 12:39:32 PMWhat if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.Quote from: MikieTimTAnd since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.
I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.
Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.Quote from: MikieTimTIt'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.
US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 21, 2021, 03:52:19 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 21, 2021, 03:52:19 PM
The only portion of route that the infrastructure bill currently mandates as a future interstate is Perry to Springdale. Of course, if ODOT and ArDOT want to extend the interstate of their own volition, they theoretically could.
I don't really object to the use of the I-50 designation–where else could it be used that would actually make sense and not conflict with US-50?–but do note that since the bill doesn't specify a number, AASHTO is free to approve or decline whatever number they wish. ArDOT and ODOT can apply with I-50 if they wish, and if AASHTO feels that's inappropriate they can change the number (as they did with I-42).
The western terminus of Interstate Whatever is pretty close to Perry on I-35. I definitely wouldn't call it desolate. Nowhere near as desolate as, say, I-20's western terminus.
You could upgrade Enid to Perry to be Interstate grade if you wanted to, but once you get into Enid things start to get complex. I'm not even sure where the best place to put an Enid bypass would be, since there's a bunch of rail infrastructure on the north side of town and on the south side you'd either have to thread the needle between development and Vance AFB or swing way south to pass south of the base. Neither of those are likely to be anything the USAF is super thrilled about.
I think it would be good to see the US-412 corridor between Enid and Boise City be upgraded to freeway at some point to tie into the I-27 corridor, as well as to make going down the panhandle slightly less miserable. But that's never going to happen without additional legislation like this infrastructure bill that makes it so.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 12:39:32 PMQuote from: MikieTimTAnd since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.
I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.
I don't really object to the use of the I-50 designation–where else could it be used that would actually make sense and not conflict with US-50?–but do note that since the bill doesn't specify a number, AASHTO is free to approve or decline whatever number they wish. ArDOT and ODOT can apply with I-50 if they wish, and if AASHTO feels that's inappropriate they can change the number (as they did with I-42).
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 12:39:32 PM
Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.
The western terminus of Interstate Whatever is pretty close to Perry on I-35. I definitely wouldn't call it desolate. Nowhere near as desolate as, say, I-20's western terminus.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 12:39:32 PMQuote from: MikieTimTIt'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.
You could upgrade Enid to Perry to be Interstate grade if you wanted to, but once you get into Enid things start to get complex. I'm not even sure where the best place to put an Enid bypass would be, since there's a bunch of rail infrastructure on the north side of town and on the south side you'd either have to thread the needle between development and Vance AFB or swing way south to pass south of the base. Neither of those are likely to be anything the USAF is super thrilled about.
I think it would be good to see the US-412 corridor between Enid and Boise City be upgraded to freeway at some point to tie into the I-27 corridor, as well as to make going down the panhandle slightly less miserable. But that's never going to happen without additional legislation like this infrastructure bill that makes it so.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 21, 2021, 09:26:40 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 21, 2021, 09:26:40 PM
Could the airport and the Air Force base be relocated to accommodate an Enid bypass? I think the future Interstate corridor should terminate at Interstate 35 and not go any further west.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 21, 2021, 09:33:42 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 21, 2021, 09:33:42 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on September 21, 2021, 03:50:21 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 12:39:32 PMWhat if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.Quote from: MikieTimTAnd since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.
I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.
Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.Quote from: MikieTimTIt'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.
US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.
I know I'd use it going to Colorado Springs/Denver or points west more than a little. Wouldn't be very expensive terrain to build in either compared to some of the more mountainous/swampy stretches that many of the new terrain Interstates have/are being pushed through as of late. If it ran further north toward Kit Carson along the US-287 corridor, then only the short stretch between Dodge City and Garden City would potentially conflict with a US-50 multiplex of an I-50. Don't know how Kansas would handle having 2 Route 50's in their state. Arkansas has long since gotten past that particular hangup, if we ever had it to begin with.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 10:46:00 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 10:46:00 PM
Quote from: MikieTimTAnd if Springdale/Lowell is where it ended, I'd agree, but was intended to go all the way to Nashville, which adds quite a bit of mileage.
I've seen "I-66" proposals that crossed Kentucky, Missouri and even parts of Kansas and New Mexico. I've seen propsals for upgrading US-412 across Arkansas in various manners, but usually no more than standard 4-lane divided rather than full Interstate quality. Such a corridor going clear to Nashville? I must have missed that HPC proposal.
Quote from: CoreySamsonWhat if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.
The route would look a little weird overall, a bit of a V-shape, with it having to take a fairly sharp bend going up into Kansas. If such a route were to go up to Dodge City the bend in Oklahoma would have to happen near Enid rather than Woodward. That would ruin quite a bit of the appeal of such a route for drivers coming from/thru the OKC area heading to Colorado. A direct route from Woodward to Garden City works better in that regard.
I think chances are between very slim to absolutely none the US-412 corridor would ever be upgraded fully to Interstate quality between Springdale and Walnut Ridge. But if such a thing were to happen, and I-555 was extended up to Walnut Ridge, that could be added to that fictional diagonal corridor up to Limon. That ultimate combo, an I-70 to I-40 route, would be more worthy of an I-50 designation.
Still, I think a designation as big as I-50 needs to cross at least 3 time zones or be as close to a coast-to-coast route as possible. Not too long ago I described one fictional I-50 idea that would go from Jacksonville, FL to Provo, UT. But that idea would consume I-22 and I-555. I would use US-60 across Southern Missouri (since chances are far better for US-60 to get an Interstate upgrade than US-412 in Northern Arkansas). From Joplin the route would go to Wichita and overlap US-50 a good distance thru Pueblo to Grand Junction, co-sign with I-70 to the US-6 split then go up to Provo to end at I-15. Can't see any realistic scenario for pushing the fictional route across Nevada into California.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 22, 2021, 02:24:50 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 22, 2021, 02:24:50 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on September 21, 2021, 09:33:42 PM
If it ran further north toward Kit Carson along the US-287 corridor, then only the short stretch between Dodge City and Garden City would potentially conflict with a US-50 multiplex of an I-50. Don't know how Kansas would handle having 2 Route 50's in their state.
They already have two K-8s, so I don't know that they'd mind so much. But the two are on opposite ends of the state (one is a short connector to OK-8, and the other is a short connector to the Nebraska border).
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 21, 2021, 09:26:40 PM
Could the airport and the Air Force base be relocated to accommodate an Enid bypass? I think the future Interstate corridor should terminate at Interstate 35 and not go any further west.
You know how expensive it would be to move a whole damn Air Force Base? I have a feeling it would be cheaper to just bypass it further out.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 22, 2021, 10:57:43 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 22, 2021, 10:57:43 AM
Vance AFB isn't very big. Still, bypassing South of the AFB would put the alignment 5 miles South of current US-412. If tunnels weren't so freakish expensive to build it could be possible to build a freeway bypass along the North edge of Vance AFB near the main gates and tunnel under the runways nearby to come back above ground past Oakwood Road. Comparitively speaking it would probably be cheaper to buy ROW needed along or near Southgate Road in order to squeeze between the AFB and South side of Enid.
Some sort of Southern bypass of Enid would probably be preferable to going North around the town. The bulk of Enid is situated on North of US-412, which would make a bypass around the North side of Enid longer than a Southern bypass.
Some sort of Southern bypass of Enid would probably be preferable to going North around the town. The bulk of Enid is situated on North of US-412, which would make a bypass around the North side of Enid longer than a Southern bypass.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on September 22, 2021, 12:34:21 PM
Post by: skluth on September 22, 2021, 12:34:21 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 21, 2021, 09:26:40 PM
Could the airport and the Air Force base be relocated to accommodate an Enid bypass? I think the future Interstate corridor should terminate at Interstate 35 and not go any further west.
The government will close a base using BRAC (https://www.acq.osd.mil/brac/) before moving it unless someone with a lot of political power can stop it. This is especially true of small bases that can have their mission easily moved to another base. Training bases tend to be closed in every BRAC rotation. Getting a freeway in exchange for losing a base is not a deal most cities would accept.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on September 22, 2021, 01:16:42 PM
Post by: edwaleni on September 22, 2021, 01:16:42 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 22, 2021, 10:57:43 AM
Vance AFB isn't very big. Still, bypassing South of the AFB would put the alignment 5 miles South of current US-412. If tunnels weren't so freakish expensive to build it could be possible to build a freeway bypass along the North edge of Vance AFB near the main gates and tunnel under the runways nearby to come back above ground past Oakwood Road. Comparitively speaking it would probably be cheaper to buy ROW needed along or near Southgate Road in order to squeeze between the AFB and South side of Enid.
Some sort of Southern bypass of Enid would probably be preferable to going North around the town. The bulk of Enid is situated on North of US-412, which would make a bypass around the North side of Enid longer than a Southern bypass.
Honestly most of the traffic on US-412 is east of Enid. There has been some traffic growth west of Enid due to the amount of fracking in the Cimarron River basin. But when he current US-412 was built in the 1970's (now Owen Garriott Drive) it wasn't to support a large urban bypass because the amount of traffic didn't warrant it. Enid was trying to get truck traffic out of downtown because the only way in was on Market Street with the curve up to Maine Street at NOU which was built in 1936.The "Shark Bridge" was a clearance problem. The city limits of Enid in the 70's didn't go past what was then Market Street until you got to S. 7th St, so the new road simply avoided downtown.
Enid has exploded on the west and northwest side of town (probably due to oil workers) but I dont think it justifies a bypass in and of itself.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 22, 2021, 01:34:14 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 22, 2021, 01:34:14 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 10:46:00 PMQuote from: MikieTimTAnd if Springdale/Lowell is where it ended, I'd agree, but was intended to go all the way to Nashville, which adds quite a bit of mileage.
I've seen "I-66" proposals that crossed Kentucky, Missouri and even parts of Kansas and New Mexico. I've seen propsals for upgrading US-412 across Arkansas in various manners, but usually no more than standard 4-lane divided rather than full Interstate quality. Such a corridor going clear to Nashville? I must have missed that HPC proposal.Quote from: CoreySamsonWhat if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.
The route would look a little weird overall, a bit of a V-shape, with it having to take a fairly sharp bend going up into Kansas. If such a route were to go up to Dodge City the bend in Oklahoma would have to happen near Enid rather than Woodward. That would ruin quite a bit of the appeal of such a route for drivers coming from/thru the OKC area heading to Colorado. A direct route from Woodward to Garden City works better in that regard.
I think chances are between very slim to absolutely none the US-412 corridor would ever be upgraded fully to Interstate quality between Springdale and Walnut Ridge. But if such a thing were to happen, and I-555 was extended up to Walnut Ridge, that could be added to that fictional diagonal corridor up to Limon. That ultimate combo, an I-70 to I-40 route, would be more worthy of an I-50 designation.
Still, I think a designation as big as I-50 needs to cross at least 3 time zones or be as close to a coast-to-coast route as possible. Not too long ago I described one fictional I-50 idea that would go from Jacksonville, FL to Provo, UT. But that idea would consume I-22 and I-555. I would use US-60 across Southern Missouri (since chances are far better for US-60 to get an Interstate upgrade than US-412 in Northern Arkansas). From Joplin the route would go to Wichita and overlap US-50 a good distance thru Pueblo to Grand Junction, co-sign with I-70 to the US-6 split then go up to Provo to end at I-15. Can't see any realistic scenario for pushing the fictional route across Nevada into California.
That's odd. Almost every reference of ISTEA High Priority Corridor 8 I found online has it going into Tennessee, Nashville specifically. (Much to the chagrin of our resident US-412 Tennessee representative)
https://www.peaktraffic.org/corridors.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_priority_corridor
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-1422/pdf/COMPS-1422.pdf (Pg. 68-71 of 158,
SEC. 1105. HIGH PRIORITY CORRIDORS ON NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM,
(c) IDENTIFICATION OF HIGH PRIORITY CORRIDORS ON NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM.–The following are high priority corridors on the National Highway System:
(8) Highway 412 East-West Corridor from Tulsa, Oklahoma, through Arkansas along United States Route 62/63/65 to Nashville, Tennessee.)
And I-30 is only in 2 states, both within a single timezone, and is almost as much N-S as it is E-W. It's one with a rather large amount of traffic, though. Diagonals sure do mess with standards.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 02, 2021, 10:11:34 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 02, 2021, 10:11:34 AM
Now that I-49 is complete in NWA, the western leg of the US-412 bypass (Future I-50?) can start to get focus to pull the traffic off US-412/AR-112 for traffic coming and going to northbound I-49.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 08, 2021, 06:53:06 AM
Post by: bugo on October 08, 2021, 06:53:06 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 22, 2021, 02:24:50 AM
They already have two K-8s, so I don't know that they'd mind so much. But the two are on opposite ends of the state (one is a short connector to OK-8, and the other is a short connector to the Nebraska border).
The two sections of Kansas 8 were once connected. Most of what is now US 281 was once K-8, which ran from the Nebraska line to US 36 along modern K-8, east on US 36, south on US 281, east on K-2 and south on modern K-8.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on October 27, 2021, 08:51:23 PM
Post by: US71 on October 27, 2021, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 02, 2021, 10:11:34 AM
Now that I-49 is complete in NWA, the western leg of the US-412 bypass (Future I-50?) can start to get focus to pull the traffic off US-412/AR-112 for traffic coming and going to northbound I-49.
Nope. ARDOT has other plans.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rover_0 on November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM
Post by: Rover_0 on November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM
From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?
Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 07, 2021, 10:26:12 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 07, 2021, 10:26:12 PM
Inhofe, others push to make stretch of U.S. 412 an interstate
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/4/77/477ea316-ba88-11eb-9150-abead8918c38/60a83bbb5a35d.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C623)
OKLAHOMA CITY – Federal legislation introduced Friday would designate U.S. 412 running through Oklahoma and Arkansas as a future interstate.
The measure would give the designation to the stretch of U.S. 412 from Interstate 35 in Noble County to Interstate 49 in Springdale, Arkansas.
The highway is known as the Sand Springs Expressway between Tulsa and Sand Springs and the Keystone Expressway west of Sand Springs.
The bill was introduced by U.S. Sens. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., and John Boozman and Tom Cotton, both R-Ark.
"Our interstate system is the lifeblood of Oklahoma's economy and provides the network for companies to bring materials into our critical industries, for businesses to locate in areas convenient for consumers, and for commuters to get to work and school safely and reliably," Inhofe said.
"Designating Route 412 as an interstate would benefit Oklahoma by attracting new businesses, improving safety, enhancing freight mobility and better connecting rural and urban communities."
While most major metropolitan areas across the nation have two or more interstate highways connecting their regions, the Tulsa metro area and the northwest Arkansas metropolitan area are both served by just one interstate highway each, Interstate 44 and Interstate 49, respectively.
"The designation would have a significant impact for Tulsa and all of northeast Oklahoma," Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum said.
The interstate designation is needed to keep up with the growth of the area, proponents say.
The Oklahoma and Arkansas departments of transportation would have to fully upgrade the corridor to interstate standards, ODOT Director Tim Gatz and ADT Director Lorie Tudor wrote in a letter to Inhofe.
Both support the move, the letter says.
A significant portion of the route was designed and built to interstate standards, the letter says.
The proposal would connect three key interstate freight corridors in the heartland: Interstate 35, Interstate 44 and Interstate 49, Gatz and Tudor wrote.
"The existing US-412 route directly serves major inland ports, including the Tulsa Ports of Catoosa and Inola and Oakley's Port 33 on the McClellan-Kerr Arkansas River Navigation System," the letter says.
"An interstate designation on this route also improves access to the Tulsa International Airport and Northwest Arkansas Regional Airport, and will improve supply chain connectivity for major retail and industrial employers in the region, including Walmart, and numerous energy and aerospace companies."
Terri Angier, an Oklahoma Department of Transportation spokeswoman, said the project has been talked about for a number of years.
She said the filing of the measure is a starting point.
Officials will need to determine the costs and which areas would need to be upgraded, Angier said.
More of U.S. 412 in Oklahoma than in Arkansas has already been upgraded because the Oklahoma portion includes two turnpikes – the Cimarron and the Cherokee, she said.
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/4/77/477ea316-ba88-11eb-9150-abead8918c38/60a83bbb5a35d.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C623)
OKLAHOMA CITY – Federal legislation introduced Friday would designate U.S. 412 running through Oklahoma and Arkansas as a future interstate.
The measure would give the designation to the stretch of U.S. 412 from Interstate 35 in Noble County to Interstate 49 in Springdale, Arkansas.
The highway is known as the Sand Springs Expressway between Tulsa and Sand Springs and the Keystone Expressway west of Sand Springs.
The bill was introduced by U.S. Sens. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., and John Boozman and Tom Cotton, both R-Ark.
"Our interstate system is the lifeblood of Oklahoma's economy and provides the network for companies to bring materials into our critical industries, for businesses to locate in areas convenient for consumers, and for commuters to get to work and school safely and reliably," Inhofe said.
"Designating Route 412 as an interstate would benefit Oklahoma by attracting new businesses, improving safety, enhancing freight mobility and better connecting rural and urban communities."
While most major metropolitan areas across the nation have two or more interstate highways connecting their regions, the Tulsa metro area and the northwest Arkansas metropolitan area are both served by just one interstate highway each, Interstate 44 and Interstate 49, respectively.
"The designation would have a significant impact for Tulsa and all of northeast Oklahoma," Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum said.
The interstate designation is needed to keep up with the growth of the area, proponents say.
The Oklahoma and Arkansas departments of transportation would have to fully upgrade the corridor to interstate standards, ODOT Director Tim Gatz and ADT Director Lorie Tudor wrote in a letter to Inhofe.
Both support the move, the letter says.
A significant portion of the route was designed and built to interstate standards, the letter says.
The proposal would connect three key interstate freight corridors in the heartland: Interstate 35, Interstate 44 and Interstate 49, Gatz and Tudor wrote.
"The existing US-412 route directly serves major inland ports, including the Tulsa Ports of Catoosa and Inola and Oakley's Port 33 on the McClellan-Kerr Arkansas River Navigation System," the letter says.
"An interstate designation on this route also improves access to the Tulsa International Airport and Northwest Arkansas Regional Airport, and will improve supply chain connectivity for major retail and industrial employers in the region, including Walmart, and numerous energy and aerospace companies."
Terri Angier, an Oklahoma Department of Transportation spokeswoman, said the project has been talked about for a number of years.
She said the filing of the measure is a starting point.
Officials will need to determine the costs and which areas would need to be upgraded, Angier said.
More of U.S. 412 in Oklahoma than in Arkansas has already been upgraded because the Oklahoma portion includes two turnpikes – the Cimarron and the Cherokee, she said.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 07, 2021, 10:37:04 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 07, 2021, 10:37:04 PM
Quote from: Rover_0 on November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM
From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?
Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
On October 6, 2021, The bill was read into the SURFACE TRANSPORTATION REAUTHORIZATION ACT OF 2021 and included in report 117-41
https://www.congress.gov/117/crpt/srpt41/CRPT-117srpt41.pdf (https://www.congress.gov/117/crpt/srpt41/CRPT-117srpt41.pdf)
The biggest issue is that the Highway Trust Fund is severely underfunded. By 2023 it will be $23 Billion in the hole. So if they don't raise the federal fuels tax, the money will have to come out of the general fund via a grant.
On the House side it got rolled into the INVEST in America bill, but it has some clauses that aren't going over to well.
For example:
"directs DOT to establish a pilot program to demonstrate a national motor vehicle per-mile user fee to restore and maintain the long-term solvency of the Highway Trust Fund and achieve and maintain a state of good repair in the surface transportation system."
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 07, 2021, 11:37:33 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 07, 2021, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Rover_0 on November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM
From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?
Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)
The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on November 08, 2021, 01:40:29 AM
Post by: Road Hog on November 08, 2021, 01:40:29 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2021, 11:37:33 PMSo Inhofe was for it before he was against it?Quote from: Rover_0 on November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM
From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?
Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)
The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on November 08, 2021, 02:24:19 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 08, 2021, 02:24:19 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on November 08, 2021, 01:40:29 AMHe opposed the infrastructure bill in general, largely due to the fact only some $100 billion is actually going to roads, bridges, etc. but decided to include the US-412 amendment in order to get something out of it, given it was inevitably going to pass.Quote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2021, 11:37:33 PMSo Inhofe was for it before he was against it?Quote from: Rover_0 on November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM
From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?
Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)
The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on November 08, 2021, 07:39:08 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on November 08, 2021, 07:39:08 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on September 22, 2021, 01:34:14 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2021, 10:46:00 PMQuote from: MikieTimTAnd if Springdale/Lowell is where it ended, I'd agree, but was intended to go all the way to Nashville, which adds quite a bit of mileage.
I've seen "I-66" proposals that crossed Kentucky, Missouri and even parts of Kansas and New Mexico. I've seen propsals for upgrading US-412 across Arkansas in various manners, but usually no more than standard 4-lane divided rather than full Interstate quality. Such a corridor going clear to Nashville? I must have missed that HPC proposal.Quote from: CoreySamsonWhat if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.
The route would look a little weird overall, a bit of a V-shape, with it having to take a fairly sharp bend going up into Kansas. If such a route were to go up to Dodge City the bend in Oklahoma would have to happen near Enid rather than Woodward. That would ruin quite a bit of the appeal of such a route for drivers coming from/thru the OKC area heading to Colorado. A direct route from Woodward to Garden City works better in that regard.
I think chances are between very slim to absolutely none the US-412 corridor would ever be upgraded fully to Interstate quality between Springdale and Walnut Ridge. But if such a thing were to happen, and I-555 was extended up to Walnut Ridge, that could be added to that fictional diagonal corridor up to Limon. That ultimate combo, an I-70 to I-40 route, would be more worthy of an I-50 designation.
Still, I think a designation as big as I-50 needs to cross at least 3 time zones or be as close to a coast-to-coast route as possible. Not too long ago I described one fictional I-50 idea that would go from Jacksonville, FL to Provo, UT. But that idea would consume I-22 and I-555. I would use US-60 across Southern Missouri (since chances are far better for US-60 to get an Interstate upgrade than US-412 in Northern Arkansas). From Joplin the route would go to Wichita and overlap US-50 a good distance thru Pueblo to Grand Junction, co-sign with I-70 to the US-6 split then go up to Provo to end at I-15. Can't see any realistic scenario for pushing the fictional route across Nevada into California.
That's odd. Almost every reference of ISTEA High Priority Corridor 8 I found online has it going into Tennessee, Nashville specifically. (Much to the chagrin of our resident US-412 Tennessee representative)
https://www.peaktraffic.org/corridors.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_priority_corridor
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-1422/pdf/COMPS-1422.pdf (Pg. 68-71 of 158,
SEC. 1105. HIGH PRIORITY CORRIDORS ON NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM,
(c) IDENTIFICATION OF HIGH PRIORITY CORRIDORS ON NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM.–The following are high priority corridors on the National Highway System:
(8) Highway 412 East-West Corridor from Tulsa, Oklahoma, through Arkansas along United States Route 62/63/65 to Nashville, Tennessee.)
And I-30 is only in 2 states, both within a single timezone, and is almost as much N-S as it is E-W. It's one with a rather large amount of traffic, though. Diagonals sure do mess with standards.
I just did this drive and found that there are several options out there already. We don't need an additional option.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 08, 2021, 11:37:11 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 08, 2021, 11:37:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2021, 11:37:33 PMQuote from: Rover_0 on November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM
From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?
Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)
The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.
Apparently, this trucking company is pretty confident in all of this moving forward since they just bought land on the next exit to the south of where this currently terminates south of Lowell on I-49.
Trucking company buys I-49 land in Springdale for possible expansion (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/11/trucking-company-buys-i-49-land-in-springdale-for-possible-expansion/)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: -- US 175 -- on November 08, 2021, 11:42:25 AM
Post by: -- US 175 -- on November 08, 2021, 11:42:25 AM
Quote"Our interstate system is the lifeblood of Oklahoma's economy and provides the network for companies to bring materials into our critical industries, for businesses to locate in areas convenient for consumers, and for commuters to get to work and school safely and reliably," Inhofe said.
Too bad he doesn't think so highly about any potentially-interstated part of US 69. Sounds like he has his priorities. :-/ :-|
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 08, 2021, 12:01:56 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 08, 2021, 12:01:56 PM
Quote from: -- US 175 -- on November 08, 2021, 11:42:25 AMQuote"Our interstate system is the lifeblood of Oklahoma's economy and provides the network for companies to bring materials into our critical industries, for businesses to locate in areas convenient for consumers, and for commuters to get to work and school safely and reliably," Inhofe said.
Too bad he doesn't think so highly about any potentially-interstated part of US 69. Sounds like he has his priorities. :-/ :-|
Maybe the largest revenue generator in Stringtown is one of his contributors.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: SkyPesos on November 08, 2021, 02:53:24 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on November 08, 2021, 02:53:24 PM
Quote from: -- US 175 -- on November 08, 2021, 11:42:25 AMHe probably wants Arkansas to take the St Louis-Dallas traffic away from Oklahoma first. Currently, I-44/US 69/US 75 via OK and US 67/I-30 via AR are about the same driving time between the two cities, but the extension of I-57 along I-67 south of Poplar Bluff will definitely sway in the favor of US 67/I-30.Quote"Our interstate system is the lifeblood of Oklahoma's economy and provides the network for companies to bring materials into our critical industries, for businesses to locate in areas convenient for consumers, and for commuters to get to work and school safely and reliably," Inhofe said.
Too bad he doesn't think so highly about any potentially-interstated part of US 69. Sounds like he has his priorities. :-/ :-|
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 08, 2021, 03:26:41 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 08, 2021, 03:26:41 PM
Inhofe is a Tulsa homer and this is supposedly going to be his last term in office. Upgrading US-412 lets him end his career by giving something shiny to Tulsa, so that's why that's why he gives a shit about that and not US-69.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 08, 2021, 03:39:14 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 08, 2021, 03:39:14 PM
I wish they'd remove tolls on this stretch to create a toll free option for Tulsa. Way too many tolls Tulsa has to deal with. Ideally every toll road would be removed. Start with 412.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 08, 2021, 04:33:34 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 08, 2021, 04:33:34 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on November 08, 2021, 11:37:11 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2021, 11:37:33 PMQuote from: Rover_0 on November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM
From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?
Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)
The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.
Apparently, this trucking company is pretty confident in all of this moving forward since they just bought land on the next exit to the south of where this currently terminates south of Lowell on I-49.
Trucking company buys I-49 land in Springdale for possible expansion (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/11/trucking-company-buys-i-49-land-in-springdale-for-possible-expansion/)
Thats a good spot. Easy access to both 49 and the future bypass in each direction.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 08, 2021, 04:47:27 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 08, 2021, 04:47:27 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 08, 2021, 04:33:34 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on November 08, 2021, 11:37:11 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2021, 11:37:33 PMQuote from: Rover_0 on November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM
From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?
Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)
The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.
Apparently, this trucking company is pretty confident in all of this moving forward since they just bought land on the next exit to the south of where this currently terminates south of Lowell on I-49.
Trucking company buys I-49 land in Springdale for possible expansion (https://talkbusiness.net/2021/11/trucking-company-buys-i-49-land-in-springdale-for-possible-expansion/)
Thats a good spot. Easy access to both 49 and the future bypass in each direction.
That exit and the Lowell exit to the north of AR-612 will fill up with businesses in or serving the trucking industry shockingly quick, I suspect.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: hurricanehink on November 10, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Post by: hurricanehink on November 10, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Do you think the 412 interstate would tie into AK 612 to reach 49?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: mvak36 on November 10, 2021, 11:34:39 AM
Post by: mvak36 on November 10, 2021, 11:34:39 AM
Quote from: hurricanehink on November 10, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Do you think the 412 interstate would tie into AK 612 to reach 49?
I think it would. 412 is too built up closer to I-49 so the interstate will use the bypass.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 10, 2021, 11:39:22 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 10, 2021, 11:39:22 AM
Quote from: mvak36 on November 10, 2021, 11:34:39 AMQuote from: hurricanehink on November 10, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Do you think the 412 interstate would tie into AK 612 to reach 49?
I think it would. 412 is too built up closer to I-49 so the interstate will use the bypass.
Undoubtedly. AR-612 is already limited access. What remains to be seen is how it will be handled from XNA westward in AR and OK to the Cherokee Turnpike. Siloam Springs and West Siloam Springs will have to be bypassed, which should have happened 10 years ago instead of the stupid 6 laning of US-412 through Siloam Springs.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 10, 2021, 02:02:14 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 10, 2021, 02:02:14 PM
Quote from: hurricanehink on November 10, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Do you think the 412 interstate would tie into AK 612 to reach 49?
The interstate's west end is proposed to be at Perry, Oklahoma. There are no plans to extend it to Alaska.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 10, 2021, 03:06:14 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 10, 2021, 03:06:14 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 10, 2021, 02:02:14 PMQuote from: hurricanehink on November 10, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
Do you think the 412 interstate would tie into AK 612 to reach 49?
The interstate's west end is proposed to be at Perry, Oklahoma. There are no plans to extend it to Alaska.
US-412's western end is Springer, NM at I-25. I'd bank on none of us living long enough to see I-50 ever get past I-35.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 10, 2021, 05:07:35 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 10, 2021, 05:07:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 08, 2021, 03:26:41 PM
Inhofe is a Tulsa homer and this is supposedly going to be his last term in office. Upgrading US-412 lets him end his career by giving something shiny to Tulsa, so that's why that's why he gives a shit about that and not US-69.
"Inhofe Memorial Highway". I can see it in green with the white font already.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 10, 2021, 05:22:28 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 10, 2021, 05:22:28 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 10, 2021, 05:07:35 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 08, 2021, 03:26:41 PM
Inhofe is a Tulsa homer and this is supposedly going to be his last term in office. Upgrading US-412 lets him end his career by giving something shiny to Tulsa, so that's why that's why he gives a shit about that and not US-69.
"Inhofe Memorial Highway". I can see it in green with the white font already.
It'd be a little more cumbersome on the Arkansas portion, what with 2 sponsors here. I really don't care, as long as it gets built, preferably with the turnpike portion transitioning to free. Doubt that Oklahoma lets go of that revenue stream, though. Wonder how long it will take to pay off the Cherokee Turnpike, or has it been already and revenue redirected?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 10, 2021, 06:12:14 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 10, 2021, 06:12:14 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 10, 2021, 05:07:35 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 08, 2021, 03:26:41 PM
Inhofe is a Tulsa homer and this is supposedly going to be his last term in office. Upgrading US-412 lets him end his career by giving something shiny to Tulsa, so that's why that's why he gives a shit about that and not US-69.
"Inhofe Memorial Highway". I can see it in green with the white font already.
Assuming the Legislature hasn't already named a bunch of disjointed sections of it after random state troopers like they tend to do.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 10, 2021, 07:07:23 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 10, 2021, 07:07:23 PM
QuoteI'd bank on none of us living long enough to see I-50 ever get past I-35.
Chances are slim to none the Interstate designation over US-412 will go East of I-49 either. That is all the more reason to not waste a major designation such as "I-50" on such a short length Interstate, particularly one in close proximity to I-40.
I think it would be really funny if the resulting Interstate ended up being un-signed or even called I-412.
:D
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 10, 2021, 08:00:03 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 10, 2021, 08:00:03 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 10, 2021, 07:07:23 PMQuoteI'd bank on none of us living long enough to see I-50 ever get past I-35.
Chances are slim to none the Interstate designation over US-412 will go East of I-49 either. That is all the more reason to not waste a major designation such as "I-50" on such a short length Interstate, particularly one in close proximity to I-40.
I think it would be really funny if the resulting Interstate ended up being un-signed or even called I-412.
:D
Not I-437? :P
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 10, 2021, 09:14:09 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 10, 2021, 09:14:09 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 10, 2021, 07:07:23 PMSo where else would I-50 go then? This route seems perfectly fit for I-50.QuoteI'd bank on none of us living long enough to see I-50 ever get past I-35.
Chances are slim to none the Interstate designation over US-412 will go East of I-49 either. That is all the more reason to not waste a major designation such as "I-50" on such a short length Interstate, particularly one in close proximity to I-40.
I think it would be really funny if the resulting Interstate ended up being un-signed or even called I-412.
:D
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Alex on November 10, 2021, 10:37:22 PM
Post by: Alex on November 10, 2021, 10:37:22 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 10, 2021, 07:07:23 PM
Chances are slim to none the Interstate designation over US-412 will go East of I-49 either. That is all the more reason to not waste a major designation such as "I-50" on such a short length Interstate, particularly one in close proximity to I-40.
:D
No a waste is nonexistent I-50 with no corridor whatsoever to be designated as one. So I'd take I-50 along US 412 vs. it being reserved for some fictional corridor.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 11, 2021, 12:03:36 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 11, 2021, 12:03:36 AM
Not all digits from 1 to 99 need to be covered in the Interstate highway system. Interstate routes whose numbers end in a five or zero need to be major routes. Springdale to a spot on I-35 kind of out in the middle of nowhere is NOT a major route. I-50 is an even more serious designation than I-40. If anything, I-40 should have been called I-50 if it was actually necessary to have an I-50 route in the Interstate system. But it isn't necessary. What's next, re-name the WA-16 freeway from Tacoma to Bremerton "Interstate 1?"
I've seen plenty of gripes in the past about I-30 and how short it is for having a major designation. This "I-50" nonsense would be even shorter and have both ends in places of far less consequence. At least I-30 dovetails into I-20 in one of the most gigantic metros in the US at its West end and dovetails into I-40 at its East end in a metro of at least some significant size. The future Interstate along US-412 has NONE of those major route functions. So it shouldn't be carrying a major route designation.
I've seen plenty of gripes in the past about I-30 and how short it is for having a major designation. This "I-50" nonsense would be even shorter and have both ends in places of far less consequence. At least I-30 dovetails into I-20 in one of the most gigantic metros in the US at its West end and dovetails into I-40 at its East end in a metro of at least some significant size. The future Interstate along US-412 has NONE of those major route functions. So it shouldn't be carrying a major route designation.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 11, 2021, 12:14:14 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 11, 2021, 12:14:14 AM
In the grand scheme of things the likelihood of a multi(3+) corridor is slim to none along US-412 but that can change fast. We get serious proposals like I-27 E and W or I-11 south of I-10. So all it takes is one lawmaker to propose an extension of an I-50 from I-35 to I-25 and then it becomes non fictional?
I'll ask again, and if the seriousness of the designation doesn't matter because I-40 should be I-50 is real then the case is even better, where else would I-50 go?
I'll ask again, and if the seriousness of the designation doesn't matter because I-40 should be I-50 is real then the case is even better, where else would I-50 go?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Alex on November 11, 2021, 07:56:00 AM
Post by: Alex on November 11, 2021, 07:56:00 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 11, 2021, 12:03:36 AM
Not all digits from 1 to 99 need to be covered in the Interstate highway system. Interstate routes whose numbers end in a five or zero need to be major routes. Springdale to a spot on I-35 kind of out in the middle of nowhere is NOT a major route. I-50 is an even more serious designation than I-40. If anything, I-40 should have been called I-50 if it was actually necessary to have an I-50 route in the Interstate system. But it isn't necessary. What's next, re-name the WA-16 freeway from Tacoma to Bremerton "Interstate 1?"
I've seen plenty of gripes in the past about I-30 and how short it is for having a major designation. This "I-50" nonsense would be even shorter and have both ends in places of far less consequence. At least I-30 dovetails into I-20 in one of the most gigantic metros in the US at its West end and dovetails into I-40 at its East end in a metro of at least some significant size. The future Interstate along US-412 has NONE of those major route functions. So it shouldn't be carrying a major route designation.
Again I-50 at zero miles in length is worse than I-30. So only in a fictional world is I-50 more serious of a designation than I-40.
Barring a pipedream major expansion of the Interstate system, I-50 and I-60 will likely never be used outside of a Turnpike upgrade in OK or Parkway upgrade in KY.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: I-35 on November 11, 2021, 10:59:01 AM
Post by: I-35 on November 11, 2021, 10:59:01 AM
So, if this I-46, I-48, etc happens, does Perry become a control city for I-35 in between Wichita and OKC? Might be in the running with Limon for most desolate control city. And what would be the WB control city? Enid, which will not be on the interstate? Or Perry, which is not at the intersection either, but at least closer to the terminus with I-35?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 11, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 11, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
To be completely honest I really could care less about the designation of the road as I care more about the physical aspect. The improvements that come along with making the road a better designed freeway as part of being an interstate is what excites me. But I don't mind saying it I'm going to absolutely lose my shit if the powers that be suggest is to be I 50 and I absolutely will support it to do my part to see it become a reality so I can watch everyone here go crazy lol
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bwana39 on November 11, 2021, 01:51:03 PM
Post by: bwana39 on November 11, 2021, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 11, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
To be completely honest I really could care less about the designation of the road as I care more about the physical aspect. The improvements that come along with making the road a better designed freeway as part of being an interstate is what excites me. But I don't mind saying it I'm going to absolutely lose my shit if the powers that be suggest is to be I 50 and I absolutely will support it to do my part to see it become a reality so I can watch everyone here go crazy lol
I so completely agree with you. I am not a great fan of give it an Interstate number.
*******************************************************************************************************************************************
BTW: I-50 was purposely skipped because US-50 / IH-50 could hardly miss one another. There is no plan to EVER have an IH-50. The even numbered US Highways went from smaller numbers in the north and larger in the south. The Interstate numbers were opposite.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 11, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 11, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on November 11, 2021, 01:51:03 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on November 11, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
To be completely honest I really could care less about the designation of the road as I care more about the physical aspect. The improvements that come along with making the road a better designed freeway as part of being an interstate is what excites me. But I don't mind saying it I'm going to absolutely lose my shit if the powers that be suggest is to be I 50 and I absolutely will support it to do my part to see it become a reality so I can watch everyone here go crazy lol
I so completely agree with you. I am not a great fan of give it an Interstate number.
*******************************************************************************************************************************************
BTW: I-50 was purposely skipped because US-50 / IH-50 could hardly miss one another. There is no plan to EVER have an IH-50. The even numbered US Highways went from smaller numbers in the north and larger in the south. The Interstate numbers were opposite.
Then make it I-60 and have people go even more mental.
Chris
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 11, 2021, 02:18:44 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 11, 2021, 02:18:44 PM
Quote from: I-35 on November 11, 2021, 10:59:01 AM
So, if this I-46, I-48, etc happens, does Perry become a control city for I-35 in between Wichita and OKC? Might be in the running with Limon for most desolate control city.
Doubtful. Oklahoma is extremely stingy with its control cities. The only in-state controls right now are OKC, Tulsa, and Lawton, which were the three largest cities in the state when the Interstates were built.
Perry has a population of 4,484, more than double Limon's. The population of Noble County, OK (which Perry is the seat of) is 10,924, almost double that of Lincoln County, CO (which Limon is not the seat of), and Noble County has a third of the land area. So while Perry would be a questionable control city choice, to be sure, it's in no way desolate in the sense that Limon is.
I don't know that I-35 control cities will change at all because of this. Certainly, northbound control cities in this case wouldn't change; anyone headed to Tulsa out of Oklahoma City would have taken I-44 instead (and anyone headed to Stillwater would have taken SH-51), so I-48 would be of little relevance to them. Southbound, you might see I-35 dual signed as Tulsa/Oklahoma City between Braman and Perry, but even that would be a little out of the ordinary for ODOT.
Quote from: I-35 on November 11, 2021, 10:59:01 AM
And what would be the WB control city? Enid, which will not be on the interstate? Or Perry, which is not at the intersection either, but at least closer to the terminus with I-35?
The turnpike is currently dual signed for Stillwater and Enid, and I see no reason to change that.
I think the more interesting thing will be what the eastbound control out of Tulsa will be, and whether ODOT does anything to try to mitigate people potentially getting Springdale AR confused with Springfield MO on I-44.
Quote from: bwana39 on November 11, 2021, 01:51:03 PM
BTW: I-50 was purposely skipped because US-50 / IH-50 could hardly miss one another. There is no plan to EVER have an IH-50. The even numbered US Highways went from smaller numbers in the north and larger in the south. The Interstate numbers were opposite.
The entire reason I-50 was mentioned for this route is because it is one of the few places where an I-50 would be in-grid and yet be nowhere near US-50. (US-50 doesn't meet I-35 until about 150 miles north of Perry, in Emporia, Kansas, and it doesn't meet I-49 until Kansas City, which is a whole state north of Springdale.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Cerlin on November 11, 2021, 04:00:45 PM
Post by: Cerlin on November 11, 2021, 04:00:45 PM
Quote from: I-35 on November 11, 2021, 10:59:01 AMI doubt Perry becomes a control city, just as Belton hasn't really become a control city SB out of Waco or NB from Austin on I-35, even though that's where I-14 terminates into I-35. I could be wrong but I just did that drive last weekend and didn't recall anything relating to I-14 being a control and that interstate is relatively similar to this situation.
So, if this I-46, I-48, etc happens, does Perry become a control city for I-35 in between Wichita and OKC? Might be in the running with Limon for most desolate control city. And what would be the WB control city? Enid, which will not be on the interstate? Or Perry, which is not at the intersection either, but at least closer to the terminus with I-35?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 02:04:17 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 02:04:17 PM
West of Tulsa I would imagine the control cities to be probably Stillwater - Enid because US-412 will be cosigned with what ever I number it gets.
East of Tulsa I would expect it to be Springdale AR.
You will probably a see a mileage sign at least once with the endpoints.
East of Tulsa I would expect it to be Springdale AR.
You will probably a see a mileage sign at least once with the endpoints.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 12, 2021, 02:19:24 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 12, 2021, 02:19:24 PM
I expect the control cities listed on the signs once the US 412 corridor will follow the ones listed on the existing signs along the present-day corridor. I still think the corridor should be Interstate 46 or 48 (save the 50 and 60 designations for much longer corridors that are unlikely to ever come into fruition).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 12, 2021, 03:02:06 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 12, 2021, 03:02:06 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 12, 2021, 02:19:24 PM
I expect the control cities listed on the signs once the US 412 corridor will follow the ones listed on the existing signs along the present-day corridor.
Stillwater/Enid, probably, but Siloam Springs should probably go.
Quote from: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 02:04:17 PM
East of Tulsa I would expect it to be Springdale AR.
If I was in charge, I'd probably do Fayetteville or Bentonville, actually. Yes, US-412 doesn't actually go through Fayetteville/Bentonville proper, but of the three main NW AR cities, I feel like Springdale is the least well-known.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 12, 2021, 02:19:24 PM
(save the 50 and 60 designations for much longer corridors that are unlikely to ever come into fruition).
If they are unlikely to ever come into fruition, why should the numbers be saved?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 12, 2021, 05:02:12 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 12, 2021, 05:02:12 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 11, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
To be completely honest I really could care less about the designation of the road as I care more about the physical aspect. The improvements that come along with making the road a better designed freeway as part of being an interstate is what excites me. But I don't mind saying it I'm going to absolutely lose my shit if the powers that be suggest is to be I 50 and I absolutely will support it to do my part to see it become a reality so I can watch everyone here go crazy lol
Once this was designated by the 3 senators as an Interstate, I did my part to support designating it as I-50 in submissions to both senators that serve my state. Time will tell if my eloquence made any impact. If it were ultimately destined to end at the current 2 endpoints, I'd say that a 3di would be more appropriate, and if I-49 north of I-40 up to Bentonville is any indicator, likely would be as well as a temp designation until real progress started happening east of Springdale/Lowell. But the HPC designation (HPC 8) that preceded it takes it to Nashville, which isn't exactly BFE. I-35 to I-65 is a solid chunk of middle America at 680 miles, give or take.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Mapmikey on November 12, 2021, 08:04:26 PM
Post by: Mapmikey on November 12, 2021, 08:04:26 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on November 11, 2021, 01:51:03 PM
BTW: I-50 was purposely skipped because US-50 / IH-50 could hardly miss one another. There is no plan to EVER have an IH-50.
Here's my chance to remind the world we've already officially had an I-50 in this country:
GA 520 was officially placed into the interstate system from US 17 to Jekyll Island for 1 day as I-50. That one day was May 7, 2006. Why there? That's where the AASHTO US Route Numbering Committee was meeting and they were doing a vintage car ride to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Interstates...
http://web.archive.org/web/20170202154531/https://route.transportation.org/Documents/USRN_Minutes_5-5-06.pdf
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 08:06:43 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 08:06:43 PM
I guess I would say it should be a 3di based in I-44. I-444 or I-644.
It will never go farther than Enid and it will never make it across Arkansas in our lifetime.
US-412 is an interesting road. It starts no where in Tennessee and ends no where in Utah. It doesn't make it to I-25, it ends at 4th Street in downtown Springer.
Another weird factoid about US-412. The exit at Springer, Utah on I-25 going north to reach US-412? Is Exit 412. But since US-412 ends in town, the exit signage doesn't include the shield.
It will never go farther than Enid and it will never make it across Arkansas in our lifetime.
US-412 is an interesting road. It starts no where in Tennessee and ends no where in Utah. It doesn't make it to I-25, it ends at 4th Street in downtown Springer.
Another weird factoid about US-412. The exit at Springer, Utah on I-25 going north to reach US-412? Is Exit 412. But since US-412 ends in town, the exit signage doesn't include the shield.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Mapmikey on November 12, 2021, 08:42:16 PM
Post by: Mapmikey on November 12, 2021, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 08:06:43 PM
I guess I would say it should be a 3di based in I-44. I-444 or I-644.
It will never go farther than Enid and it will never make it across Arkansas in our lifetime.
US-412 is an interesting road. It starts no where in Tennessee and ends no where in Utah. It doesn't make it to I-25, it ends at 4th Street in downtown Springer.
Another weird factoid about US-412. The exit at Springer, Utah on I-25 going north to reach US-412? Is Exit 412. But since US-412 ends in town, the exit signage doesn't include the shield.
Despite what signage is (and NM is Terrible), US 56-412 does end at I-25 exit 412. The application for extending US 412 in 1994 repeatedly has the endpoint as I-25 and also explicitly says US 56 ends there, too.
There is no document for extending US 56 to I-25 available (only NM document is a rejected 1958 extensino to Santa Fe request).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: triplemultiplex on November 12, 2021, 10:25:31 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on November 12, 2021, 10:25:31 PM
This should absolutely be I-46. It will forever be contained to Oklahoma and Arkansas. It crosses I-44, so even numbers greater than 44 are valid. There are no viable interstate corridors between I-40 and US 412. I-42 is taken. Therefore, it should get the lowest available even number greater than 40: 46.
For some reason, I am especially content with having a future triangle of consecutive interstates in northeast Oklahoma: 44, 45, 46. (Yeah, at least 1/3rd of that is wishful thinking at this point, but whatever.)
I will go as far to say any answer to the question "What number does this get?" that isn't 46, is incorrect.
If you want an I-50, I'll pitch US 54 from Wichita to Tucumcari. (Part of a longer corridor I'd consider as an I-60 from Tucumcari, NM to Lexington, KY via Wichita & Springfield, but I digress.)
For some reason, I am especially content with having a future triangle of consecutive interstates in northeast Oklahoma: 44, 45, 46. (Yeah, at least 1/3rd of that is wishful thinking at this point, but whatever.)
I will go as far to say any answer to the question "What number does this get?" that isn't 46, is incorrect.
If you want an I-50, I'll pitch US 54 from Wichita to Tucumcari. (Part of a longer corridor I'd consider as an I-60 from Tucumcari, NM to Lexington, KY via Wichita & Springfield, but I digress.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 13, 2021, 01:18:49 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 13, 2021, 01:18:49 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on November 12, 2021, 10:25:31 PM
I will go as far to say any answer to the question "What number does this get?" that isn't 46, is incorrect.
There's an equally strong argument for 48:
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 18, 2021, 12:35:26 AM
Been meaning to do this for a while, just now got around to it:
(https://i.imgur.com/Gv6B1Sf.png)
The midpoint of the line connecting Springdale and the western terminus of the proposed interstate would be about halfway between where a theoretical grid-perfect I-46 and I-48 intersect I-35. The actual western terminus of the proposed interstate would be just about at the I-48 mark. Therefore, I believe this interstate should be designated I-48.
But I-50 would be close too. :D
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 02:31:20 AM
Post by: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 02:31:20 AM
I'm honestly OK with just about any even number between 46 and 58; I'd kinda like to see an even number in the 50s just to see that it can be done.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on November 13, 2021, 03:56:07 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 13, 2021, 03:56:07 AM
Quote from: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 02:31:20 AMI-58 would be a reasonable number for a corridor along US-58 in Virginia between Virginia Beach (replacing I-264 entirely) and I-95/I-85, IMO.
I'm honestly OK with just about any even number between 46 and 58; I'd kinda like to see an even number in the 50s just to see that it can be done.
That's assuming a freeway is ever fully realized along that route to begin with, however.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 11:56:39 AM
Post by: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 11:56:39 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 13, 2021, 03:56:07 AMQuote from: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 02:31:20 AMI-58 would be a reasonable number for a corridor along US-58 in Virginia between Virginia Beach (replacing I-264 entirely) and I-95/I-85, IMO.
I'm honestly OK with just about any even number between 46 and 58; I'd kinda like to see an even number in the 50s just to see that it can be done.
That's assuming a freeway is ever fully realized along that route to begin with, however.
Maybe you could have both? I've had the idea of extending the US-58 designation through Tennessee to replace the US-412 designation in its entirety and create a situation like I/US-41 where up-to-standard segments connecting with other Interstates are I-58 and all others are US-58.
Definitely more fit for Fictional Highways, but it's a thought if nothing else.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on November 13, 2021, 05:05:39 PM
Post by: skluth on November 13, 2021, 05:05:39 PM
Quote from: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 11:56:39 AMQuote from: sprjus4 on November 13, 2021, 03:56:07 AMQuote from: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 02:31:20 AMI-58 would be a reasonable number for a corridor along US-58 in Virginia between Virginia Beach (replacing I-264 entirely) and I-95/I-85, IMO.
I'm honestly OK with just about any even number between 46 and 58; I'd kinda like to see an even number in the 50s just to see that it can be done.
That's assuming a freeway is ever fully realized along that route to begin with, however.
Maybe you could have both? I've had the idea of extending the US-58 designation through Tennessee to replace the US-412 designation in its entirety and create a situation like I/US-41 where up-to-standard segments connecting with other Interstates are I-58 and all others are US-58.
Definitely more fit for Fictional Highways, but it's a thought if nothing else.
US 58 itself is only in Virginia except for a tiny segment (about a mile) at its west end connecting to US 25E. There's already support for converting US 58 to freeway from Suffolk to I-85 (South Hill). US 58 is four lanes east of Stuart with many segments already freeway or expressway, with intermittent four lane sections west of Stuart to its western terminus. I'm not sure if it would be worth building an I-58 freeway across Virginia, but an I-58 co-signed with the current US 58 from South Hill to Suffolk would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 14, 2021, 12:05:05 AM
Post by: edwaleni on November 14, 2021, 12:05:05 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on November 12, 2021, 08:42:16 PMQuote from: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 08:06:43 PM
I guess I would say it should be a 3di based in I-44. I-444 or I-644.
It will never go farther than Enid and it will never make it across Arkansas in our lifetime.
US-412 is an interesting road. It starts no where in Tennessee and ends no where in Utah. It doesn't make it to I-25, it ends at 4th Street in downtown Springer.
Another weird factoid about US-412. The exit at Springer, Utah on I-25 going north to reach US-412? Is Exit 412. But since US-412 ends in town, the exit signage doesn't include the shield.
Despite what signage is (and NM is Terrible), US 56-412 does end at I-25 exit 412. The application for extending US 412 in 1994 repeatedly has the endpoint as I-25 and also explicitly says US 56 ends there, too.
There is no document for extending US 56 to I-25 available (only NM document is a rejected 1958 extensino to Santa Fe request).
Agreed that the signage is horrible. Exit 412 reports for Springer, but when you exit the sign only says what direction Springer is. No reporting signs for what exactly you are driving on. While maps says it is BL25, there are no signs to say that on the ground.
The next actual recognition that US 56 or US 412 even exists is this sign that I found.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51678235068_f6f596500c_o.png)
Why they simply didn't run the signage all the way back to the actual exit is a mystery.
You would think that the beginning of a federally marked highway ( 2 no less ) to points east would garner a little more signage.
But I just read the route didn't even exist until 1982.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on November 14, 2021, 01:24:24 AM
Post by: US 89 on November 14, 2021, 01:24:24 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 14, 2021, 12:05:05 AM
Why they simply didn't run the signage all the way back to the actual exit is a mystery.
This is New Mexico. Be grateful for any signs you do get. :-D
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Molandfreak on November 14, 2021, 10:50:30 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on November 14, 2021, 10:50:30 PM
With the risk of being chased off by an angry mob, allow me to explain why this is the perfect place for I-50, and why "I will go as far to say any answer to the question 'what number should this get' that isn't 50 is incorrect."
While it's true that the upgrade starts and ends in places that aren't exactly major, there is a gap that needs to be filled by the backbones of the Interstate system: the Tulsa metropolitan area crossed one million residents this census, and is the 55th-largest metro in the country. Of the 54 metro areas larger than Tulsa, there are only six metro areas that are not served by at least one x0 or x5 Interstate: Orlando, San Jose*, Milwaukee, Hartford, Grand Rapids, and Honolulu.
I would say the fact that designating this as I-50 would put Tulsa on a major Interstate instantly makes it less of a joke than I-30 or I-45. I-30 serves DFW (already served by I-20, I-35, and I-45) and Little Rock (already served by I-40), so excluding those leaves Texarkana, whose metro area is home to a measly 150K. And I-45 serves Dallas (again, already served by I-20, I-30, and I-35) and Houston (already served by I-10), so excluding those leaves the Huntsville micropolitan area, home to about 70K, and the Corsicana micropolitan area, home to about 50K.
There are probably no other routes in this area with a remote chance of being upgraded to a freeway within the next hundred years, and the only other state that seems to be interested in pursuing new Interstates where an I-50 would fit (North Carolina) passed on the chance to designate I-50 multiple times.
And the point of it crossing I-44 is moot, since that's to be expected of a diagonal route, and I-40 crosses it anyway.
*San Jose is served by I-280, I-480, and I-680, so you could reasonably argue I-80 indirectly serves the area.
While it's true that the upgrade starts and ends in places that aren't exactly major, there is a gap that needs to be filled by the backbones of the Interstate system: the Tulsa metropolitan area crossed one million residents this census, and is the 55th-largest metro in the country. Of the 54 metro areas larger than Tulsa, there are only six metro areas that are not served by at least one x0 or x5 Interstate: Orlando, San Jose*, Milwaukee, Hartford, Grand Rapids, and Honolulu.
I would say the fact that designating this as I-50 would put Tulsa on a major Interstate instantly makes it less of a joke than I-30 or I-45. I-30 serves DFW (already served by I-20, I-35, and I-45) and Little Rock (already served by I-40), so excluding those leaves Texarkana, whose metro area is home to a measly 150K. And I-45 serves Dallas (again, already served by I-20, I-30, and I-35) and Houston (already served by I-10), so excluding those leaves the Huntsville micropolitan area, home to about 70K, and the Corsicana micropolitan area, home to about 50K.
There are probably no other routes in this area with a remote chance of being upgraded to a freeway within the next hundred years, and the only other state that seems to be interested in pursuing new Interstates where an I-50 would fit (North Carolina) passed on the chance to designate I-50 multiple times.
And the point of it crossing I-44 is moot, since that's to be expected of a diagonal route, and I-40 crosses it anyway.
*San Jose is served by I-280, I-480, and I-680, so you could reasonably argue I-80 indirectly serves the area.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 14, 2021, 11:29:16 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 14, 2021, 11:29:16 PM
The numbering design of highway systems should not be tilted toward gifting particular cities a certain number just to elevate the city's ego. That's what you're asking of burning the I-50 designation on such a short and minor Interstate route. Only a few miles of it will be in Arkansas. Hell, I-44 itself would be a better candidate of being re-named as "I-50." The span between OKC and St Louis is one of the most important diagonal legs in the entire Interstate system. But I-44 is called I-44 and that's the way it is.
Tulsa is a decent sized city, but it is not in a location that serves as a transportation hub of cross-country highways like Oklahoma City or the DFW metro. I think the US-75 corridor should be upgraded to Interstate standards from McAlester up to Tulsa (and maybe up to Bartlesville as well). But I think the US-69 corridor from the Red River to Big Cabin is in even more urgent need of Interstate quality upgrades due to the enormous amount of big rig truck traffic on it. If I-45 was ever extended North of the DFW metro I would label it along the US-69 corridor. One could split it into I-45E & I-45W routes, but that's another rabbit hole.
If I had any say in the outcome I'd designate the US-412 Interstate as I-46 or I-48. Heck, it wouldn't bother me if it was labeled as a duplicate I-42 either.
Tulsa is a decent sized city, but it is not in a location that serves as a transportation hub of cross-country highways like Oklahoma City or the DFW metro. I think the US-75 corridor should be upgraded to Interstate standards from McAlester up to Tulsa (and maybe up to Bartlesville as well). But I think the US-69 corridor from the Red River to Big Cabin is in even more urgent need of Interstate quality upgrades due to the enormous amount of big rig truck traffic on it. If I-45 was ever extended North of the DFW metro I would label it along the US-69 corridor. One could split it into I-45E & I-45W routes, but that's another rabbit hole.
If I had any say in the outcome I'd designate the US-412 Interstate as I-46 or I-48. Heck, it wouldn't bother me if it was labeled as a duplicate I-42 either.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 14, 2021, 11:41:52 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 14, 2021, 11:41:52 PM
It's way too far north for a 42, which would be roughly along the US-62 corridor east of Oklahoma City (see map above).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 10:40:12 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 10:40:12 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 14, 2021, 11:29:16 PM
The numbering design of highway systems should not be tilted toward gifting particular cities a certain number just to elevate the city's ego. That's what you're asking of burning the I-50 designation on such a short and minor Interstate route. Only a few miles of it will be in Arkansas. Hell, I-44 itself would be a better candidate of being re-named as "I-50." The span between OKC and St Louis is one of the most important diagonal legs in the entire Interstate system. But I-44 is called I-44 and that's the way it is.
Tulsa is a decent sized city, but it is not in a location that serves as a transportation hub of cross-country highways like Oklahoma City or the DFW metro. I think the US-75 corridor should be upgraded to Interstate standards from McAlester up to Tulsa (and maybe up to Bartlesville as well). But I think the US-69 corridor from the Red River to Big Cabin is in even more urgent need of Interstate quality upgrades due to the enormous amount of big rig truck traffic on it. If I-45 was ever extended North of the DFW metro I would label it along the US-69 corridor. One could split it into I-45E & I-45W routes, but that's another rabbit hole.
If I had any say in the outcome I'd designate the US-412 Interstate as I-46 or I-48. Heck, it wouldn't bother me if it was labeled as a duplicate I-42 either.
To me, it boils down to this. What routing of an I-50 between I-40 and I-70 would serve more people and gather more traffic than the US-412 route in the middle part of the U.S.? Springfield and Joplin, MO? And where would an I-60 be routed with that same criteria? Why in the world does it make sense to make those numbers sacrosanct if there's no reasonable alternative routing and no hope that there will ever be much in the way of other 2di's in between I-40 and I-70 in several lifetimes? And keep in mind that Northwest Arkansas is only just now getting it's first complete 2di, and has been growing by leaps and bounds despite it's absence. Does anyone honestly believe that the growth will now begin slowing despite the quality of life metrics and job availability showing no signs of slowing either? Northwest Arkansas passed Springfield's population long ago despite not being on a US-x0 highway and not on a major Interstate already like Springfield, MO is. I think there's some that assume that I-x0 interstate belong along the routes of US-x0 highways. That has never been the case in this country as lots of I-x0 Interstates were routed along US highways that weren't close to US-x0 highways. It's my belief that the US-4xx highways were purposefully designated as such despite the breaking of the standard methodology of designating 3di US highways as children of 2di US routes specifically to irritate/motivate into replacing the route with an Interstate route.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 15, 2021, 11:30:09 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 15, 2021, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 08:06:43 PM
US-412 is an interesting road. It starts no where in Tennessee and ends no where in Utah. It doesn't make it to I-25, it ends at 4th Street in downtown Springer.
It definitely ends nowhere in Utah.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2021, 12:47:28 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2021, 12:47:28 PM
US 412 should have been numbered US 162, and should not exist west of Guymon, OK (OK 3 also should not have gone west of its junction with US 81 south of Okarche, but that's a topic for another thread).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on November 15, 2021, 01:52:54 PM
Post by: skluth on November 15, 2021, 01:52:54 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 10:40:12 AMQuote from: Bobby5280 on November 14, 2021, 11:29:16 PM
The numbering design of highway systems should not be tilted toward gifting particular cities a certain number just to elevate the city's ego. That's what you're asking of burning the I-50 designation on such a short and minor Interstate route. Only a few miles of it will be in Arkansas. Hell, I-44 itself would be a better candidate of being re-named as "I-50." The span between OKC and St Louis is one of the most important diagonal legs in the entire Interstate system. But I-44 is called I-44 and that's the way it is.
Tulsa is a decent sized city, but it is not in a location that serves as a transportation hub of cross-country highways like Oklahoma City or the DFW metro. I think the US-75 corridor should be upgraded to Interstate standards from McAlester up to Tulsa (and maybe up to Bartlesville as well). But I think the US-69 corridor from the Red River to Big Cabin is in even more urgent need of Interstate quality upgrades due to the enormous amount of big rig truck traffic on it. If I-45 was ever extended North of the DFW metro I would label it along the US-69 corridor. One could split it into I-45E & I-45W routes, but that's another rabbit hole.
If I had any say in the outcome I'd designate the US-412 Interstate as I-46 or I-48. Heck, it wouldn't bother me if it was labeled as a duplicate I-42 either.
To me, it boils down to this. What routing of an I-50 between I-40 and I-70 would serve more people and gather more traffic than the US-412 route in the middle part of the U.S.? Springfield and Joplin, MO? And where would an I-60 be routed with that same criteria? Why in the world does it make sense to make those numbers sacrosanct if there's no reasonable alternative routing and no hope that there will ever be much in the way of other 2di's in between I-40 and I-70 in several lifetimes? And keep in mind that Northwest Arkansas is only just now getting it's first complete 2di, and has been growing by leaps and bounds despite it's absence. Does anyone honestly believe that the growth will now begin slowing despite the quality of life metrics and job availability showing no signs of slowing either? Northwest Arkansas passed Springfield's population long ago despite not being on a US-x0 highway and not on a major Interstate already like Springfield, MO is. I think there's some that assume that I-x0 interstate belong along the routes of US-x0 highways. That has never been the case in this country as lots of I-x0 Interstates were routed along US highways that weren't close to US-x0 highways. It's my belief that the US-4xx highways were purposefully designated as such despite the breaking of the standard methodology of designating 3di US highways as children of 2di US routes specifically to irritate/motivate into replacing the route with an Interstate route.
You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period. I won't even go into your tin foil hat conspiracy about US 4XX routes have some sinister, hidden, future-interstate purpose.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on November 15, 2021, 02:37:57 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on November 15, 2021, 02:37:57 PM
The more I think of it I believe US 412 was born out of AR 12. I think that is where they came up with the number and TN just said okay whatever sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 03:19:27 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 15, 2021, 01:52:54 PM
You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period.
What does this mean? What would establish a need or desire for a particular interstate number?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Molandfreak on November 15, 2021, 03:34:34 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on November 15, 2021, 03:34:34 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 15, 2021, 01:52:54 PMAre you the director of AASHTO? Who died and made your thoughts on the matter the final say?
You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period. I won't even go into your tin foil hat conspiracy about US 4XX routes have some sinister, hidden, future-interstate purpose.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on November 15, 2021, 05:16:48 PM
Post by: skluth on November 15, 2021, 05:16:48 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on November 15, 2021, 03:34:34 PMQuote from: skluth on November 15, 2021, 01:52:54 PMAre you the director of AASHTO? Who died and made your thoughts on the matter the final say?
You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period. I won't even go into your tin foil hat conspiracy about US 4XX routes have some sinister, hidden, future-interstate purpose.
My thoughts are based on this statement from the previous poster which you deleted: It's my belief that the US-4xx highways were purposefully designated as such despite the breaking of the standard methodology of designating 3di US highways as children of 2di US routes specifically to irritate/motivate into replacing the route with an Interstate route. From my POV, that's tin foil hat territory. As far as I-50, nobody has made a case to justify calling it I-50. I'm not director of AASHTO. Neither is anyone else here. What's your point?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Molandfreak on November 15, 2021, 05:38:20 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on November 15, 2021, 05:38:20 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 15, 2021, 05:16:48 PMI won't make a judgment on the 4xx thing. That's not what this is directed at. The point is that you're acting like a total jackass who doesn't know the difference between an opinion and a fact. You disagree that this road should be I-50. That's totally fine, and Bobby5280 agrees with you. But neither of you are Supreme Court justices ruling that there can never, ever be an I-50.Quote from: Molandfreak on November 15, 2021, 03:34:34 PMQuote from: skluth on November 15, 2021, 01:52:54 PMAre you the director of AASHTO? Who died and made your thoughts on the matter the final say?
You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period. I won't even go into your tin foil hat conspiracy about US 4XX routes have some sinister, hidden, future-interstate purpose.
My thoughts are based on this statement from the previous poster which you deleted: It's my belief that the US-4xx highways were purposefully designated as such despite the breaking of the standard methodology of designating 3di US highways as children of 2di US routes specifically to irritate/motivate into replacing the route with an Interstate route. From my POV, that's tin foil hat territory. As far as I-50, nobody has made a case to justify calling it I-50. I'm not director of AASHTO. Neither is anyone else here. What's your point?
I should add that I made a case for it to be I-50 beyond the fact that it's simply a number available in the area. This is an opinion you happen to disagree with. You don't get to say "no one has made a case for it" when I literally have.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 05:45:32 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 05:45:32 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 15, 2021, 05:16:48 PM
As far as I-50, nobody has made a case to justify calling it I-50.
Nobody has really made a case to justify not calling it I-50 either. Other than the fact it might be needed for some other, more important highway...somewhere...someday...maybe.
Enid—Springdale is an interstate corridor that's here, right now, needing a number. Any even number between 46 and 62 inclusive is wide open. If ODOT decides they want I-50, then they should get I-50. No other state has tried to claim it for a more important Interstate for the past 65 years, so that should probably indicate that there isn't one coming that we need to save the number for.
As stated above, if I got to pick the number, I'd pick 48. (Although now that I think about it, it intersects with OK-48, so that might make that particular number less likely.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2021, 05:49:12 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2021, 05:49:12 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding this but the beef from those opposed to signing this as I-50 stems from a hypothetical(extremely unlikely) complete renumbering of the coast to coast interstates? Otherwise I am failing to see why this should not be called anything other than I-50...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 06:21:08 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 06:21:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2021, 05:49:12 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding this but the beef from those opposed to signing this as I-50 stems from a hypothetical(extremely unlikely) complete renumbering of the coast to coast interstates? Otherwise I am failing to see why this should not be called anything other than I-50...
Not even that; the objection comes from the fact that interstates divisible by 10 are supposed to be the major east-west routes. They don't necessarily have to be coast-to-coast; 20, 30, 40, and 70 aren't and never have been planned to be (although 40 and 70 both get most of the way there, ending at I-15 instead of I-5).
The original numbering system skipped 50 and 60 because they were trying to avoid roads with those numbers potentially conflicting with US-50 and US-60, so the route that "should" have gotten I-50 is I-70. (Of course, if it had gotten that number, I-50 and US-50 would be practically right on top of each other). This means we have two major interstate numbers that have never been assigned, and which there have never been plans to assign.
The objection, then, comes from Enid—Springdale being not as lengthy or important as the other Interstate routes divisible by 10 and therefore doesn't deserve the number. To which I say, show us the route that needs the number 50 more than this one does, and show me where the plans to build that are.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2021, 06:39:32 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2021, 06:39:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 06:21:08 PMThat's mirrors my thoughts as well. Really for I-50 to work it needs to be part of a national initiative much like I-14. One day, and I can't stretch that term enough, one day down the road a potential I-50 could be taken as far west as I-25 in Raton. Think bigger than just this small stretch. That is doable but as much as I'd like to see it anything further would likely be a political nightmare but I still have my ideas.
The objection, then, comes from Enid—Springdale being not as lengthy or important as the other Interstate routes divisible by 10 and therefore doesn't deserve the number. To which I say, show us the route that needs the number 50 more than this one does, and show me where the plans to build that are.
Same thing going further east in the future.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 08:30:22 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 08:30:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2021, 06:39:32 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 06:21:08 PMThat's mirrors my thoughts as well. Really for I-50 to work it needs to be part of a national initiative much like I-14. One day, and I can't stretch that term enough, one day down the road a potential I-50 could be taken as far west as I-25 in Raton. Think bigger than just this small stretch. That is doable but as much as I'd like to see it anything further would likely be a political nightmare but I still have my ideas.
The objection, then, comes from Enid—Springdale being not as lengthy or important as the other Interstate routes divisible by 10 and therefore doesn't deserve the number. To which I say, show us the route that needs the number 50 more than this one does, and show me where the plans to build that are.
Same thing going further east in the future.
As US-412 is ISTEA HPC route #8, there are plans to eventually take it to the Nashville vicinity to I-65. Not to say any of us will live to see it, but the corridor was enacted in legislation, which is why I don't understand why anyone states that a case hasn't been made for it. People with much more power than any of us have done exactly that. The funding hasn't come through as there are clearly higher priorities at this time, but that can and eventually will change. I'd rather see it go further west to Raton myself as I'd use that portion to go to Colorado Springs on trips. However, I'd use an eastern one much more regularly to go to Jonesboro for work or even Branson on vacations, even if it didn't make it all the way to Nashville in my lifetime. I don't necessarily care what it's called in the short or even long term. I just have a hard time understanding where a more deserving routing for an I-50 is as a wholesale renumbering of the grid is sure not very likely.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 08:35:19 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 08:35:19 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 14, 2021, 01:24:24 AMQuote from: edwaleni on November 14, 2021, 12:05:05 AM
Why they simply didn't run the signage all the way back to the actual exit is a mystery.
This is New Mexico. Be grateful for any signs you do get. :-D
My brother and I drove US-412 from I-49 to its terminus in Springer, NM about 3 months ago. Signage is certainly sparse. What was even more sparse was road markings as they had sealed the road for over 20 miles and didn't have so much as reflective tape marking the centerline, much less anything delineating the shoulders. Not that it mattered as we didn't see 5 cars outside of Clayton or Springer.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 08:47:00 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 08:47:00 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 15, 2021, 02:37:57 PM
The more I think of it I believe US 412 was born out of AR 12. I think that is where they came up with the number and TN just said okay whatever sounds good to me.
I don't believe that's the case. There's only 56 miles of AR-12 over 2 counties and the two roads never get within 10 miles of each other. US-62 did take over the chunk of AR-12 from south of Eureka Springs to Salem way back in 1930, but that's a little too historical a route number to base the US-412 designation on. Like everyone else here, I'd like to know the real logic behind the numbering as it certainly is non-standard, so all we really can do is hypothesize.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2021, 09:29:58 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2021, 09:29:58 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 08:30:22 PMYep.
I just have a hard time understanding where a more deserving routing for an I-50 is as a wholesale renumbering of the grid is sure not very likely.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: splashflash on November 15, 2021, 11:25:56 PM
Post by: splashflash on November 15, 2021, 11:25:56 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 14, 2021, 11:29:16 PMMuskogee, Wagoner, and Prior are all resisting US 69 upgrading. Could swinging a new route south of Muskogee along OK 165, of interstate quality, northeast to Tahlequah and Siloam Springs on US412 be the way forward. Arkansas is already exploring a north-south connector from the new I-49 south of Bentonville.
I think the US-75 corridor should be upgraded to Interstate standards from McAlester up to Tulsa (and maybe up to Bartlesville as well). But I think the US-69 corridor from the Red River to Big Cabin is in even more urgent need of Interstate quality upgrades due to the enormous amount of big rig truck traffic on it.
The Tulsa leg could take care of traffic to there, Bentonville and perhaps Topeka, Kansas. Muskogee would get a bypass, already existing, the route would cross the Arkansas River and perhaps follow US 62 or a Greenfield path northeasr. Upon intersecting US 412 there would be a short jaunt near Siloam Springs. This leg would make use of the new I-50, oops I-46, to just across into Arkansas and AK could take care of the rest. Thought?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 11:31:58 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2021, 11:31:58 PM
Quote from: splashflash on November 15, 2021, 11:25:56 PM
This leg would make use of the new I-50, oops I-46, to just across into Arkansas and AK could take care of the rest. Thought?
Alaska's not doing THAT well, are they?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 16, 2021, 01:00:39 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 16, 2021, 01:00:39 AM
Quote from: splashflashMuskogee, Wagoner, and Prior are all resisting US 69 upgrading. Could swinging a new route south of Muskogee along OK 165, of interstate quality, northeast to Tahlequah and Siloam Springs on US412 be the way forward.
That concept won't have any effect on traffic along US-69. Heavy trucks in particular will stick with US-69 to Big Cabin. It's a straight shot, even if there are at-grade intersections and even a few traffic signals along the way. I think US-69 from the Red River to Big Cabin needs to be brought up to Interstate standards as much for safety reasons as anything else.
Certain interests in several towns along the US-69 corridor are trying their best to prevent it from becoming a fully limited access, be it a freeway or another turnpike. I'm hoping for a freeway. IMHO, time is steadily eating away at the clout of the anti-freeway interests in that part of the state. The situation is very clear if you look at Oklahoma's updated redistricting maps. The OKC and Tulsa metros are the only areas in the state gaining population and state house districts. The rural areas are shedding population like crazy. Down here, state district 62 used to take up the Western half of Comanche County. The new district 62 swallowed half of Kiowa County, all of Cotton County and a little more of Comanche County.
If current population growth and migration trends continue (and I see zero signs why they wouldn't) little speed trap towns like Stringtown will be little more than ghost towns in the years ahead. The populations in those towns are aging. Not enough young people are staying in those towns to sustain the population. That's because there isn't enough job opportunities or social opportunities either. The bigger cities have that.
Muskogee is really the only town along the US-69 corridor that can effectively block freeway development in that small city over the long term. The way ODOT and other pro-freeway interests can get around that is by slowly upgrading US-69 everywhere else they can, piece by piece, between the Red River and Big Cabin. If enough of the corridor is upgraded to Interstate standards I think interests in Muskogee would change their minds. The project in Calera will add new freeway to the corridor. The stretch through McAlester could be upgraded fairly easily since there are already frontage roads in place.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 16, 2021, 01:07:36 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 16, 2021, 01:07:36 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 16, 2021, 01:00:39 AM
Certain interests in several towns along the US-69 corridor are trying their best to prevent it from becoming a fully limited access, be it a freeway or another turnpike. I'm hoping for a freeway. IMHO, time is steadily eating away at the clout of the anti-freeway interests in that part of the state. The situation is very clear if you look at Oklahoma's updated redistricting maps. The OKC and Tulsa metros are the only areas in the state gaining population and state house districts. The rural areas are shedding population like crazy. Down here, state district 62 used to take up the Western half of Comanche County. The new district 62 swallowed half of Kiowa County, all of Cotton County and a little more of Comanche County.
Eh...I don't feel very bullish about Oklahoma's increasing urban population actually making much of a difference in how the state government operates. Case in point, see the congressional district map. They sliced Oklahoma City like a pie to keep it from having its own district. It's harder to do that with statehouse districts but if they can glom a huge rural area onto a small fragment of urban area to keep it from being fairly represented they will.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on November 16, 2021, 03:07:45 AM
Post by: bugo on November 16, 2021, 03:07:45 AM
The claim that US 412 was numbered in reference to AR 12 is ridiculously false. The original US 412 ended in Walnut Ridge, which is on the other side of the state from AR 12. The US 4xx claim made above is even more ridiculous.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2021, 11:51:33 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2021, 11:51:33 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 16, 2021, 01:07:36 AMAt least for the next decade. I'm going to hold my breath here because I have some choice words that would likely violate forum politics rules but hopefully at the least we can see a citizens lead initiative that puts in place rules for a more fair map drawing next time around.Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 16, 2021, 01:00:39 AM
Certain interests in several towns along the US-69 corridor are trying their best to prevent it from becoming a fully limited access, be it a freeway or another turnpike. I'm hoping for a freeway. IMHO, time is steadily eating away at the clout of the anti-freeway interests in that part of the state. The situation is very clear if you look at Oklahoma's updated redistricting maps. The OKC and Tulsa metros are the only areas in the state gaining population and state house districts. The rural areas are shedding population like crazy. Down here, state district 62 used to take up the Western half of Comanche County. The new district 62 swallowed half of Kiowa County, all of Cotton County and a little more of Comanche County.
Eh...I don't feel very bullish about Oklahoma's increasing urban population actually making much of a difference in how the state government operates. Case in point, see the congressional district map. They sliced Oklahoma City like a pie to keep it from having its own district. It's harder to do that with statehouse districts but if they can glom a huge rural area onto a small fragment of urban area to keep it from being fairly represented they will.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: BroadwayExt on November 17, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
Post by: BroadwayExt on November 17, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
Long time listener, first time poster here. I have a couple of questions about this new interstate designation that y'all might be able to answer
1-Will the Stillwater Spur be designated as an interstate as well?
2-Does this mean that 412 will be moved to US-64 West of Tulsa and old OK-33 East of Tulsa? The whole "US-412 Scenic" thing wouldn't make as much sense anymore
Thanks!
1-Will the Stillwater Spur be designated as an interstate as well?
2-Does this mean that 412 will be moved to US-64 West of Tulsa and old OK-33 East of Tulsa? The whole "US-412 Scenic" thing wouldn't make as much sense anymore
Thanks!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: -- US 175 -- on November 17, 2021, 01:09:11 PM
Post by: -- US 175 -- on November 17, 2021, 01:09:11 PM
Quote from: BroadwayExt on November 17, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
Long time listener, first time poster here.
Welcome, BroadwayExt!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 17, 2021, 01:20:03 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 17, 2021, 01:20:03 PM
Quote from: BroadwayExt on November 17, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
Long time listener, first time poster here. I have a couple of questions about this new interstate designation that y'all might be able to answer
Welcome to the forums! We seem to be picking up a lot of Oklahomans recently (which is awesome).
Quote from: BroadwayExt on November 17, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
1-Will the Stillwater Spur be designated as an interstate as well?
My answer would be "maybe, but don't bet on it". It certainly could be upgraded to an Interstate when the rest of the US-412 upgrade happens (contingent, of course, on any work that may need to be done to bring it up to Interstate standards). But OTA doesn't seem to be too interested in pursuing Interstate designations for their own sake. They could have easily gotten one for the H.E. Bailey Spur, but they chose to extend SH-4 over it instead. Pursuing an Interstate designation is, of course, less likely if there is any work that has to be done to get that designation.
For what it's worth, the spur did receive a state highway number recently–SH-312.
Quote from: BroadwayExt on November 17, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
2-Does this mean that 412 will be moved to US-64 West of Tulsa and old OK-33 East of Tulsa? The whole "US-412 Scenic" thing wouldn't make as much sense anymore
This is almost certainly not going to happen. The reason is that AASHTO has had a policy since 1926 that US routes must follow the best available route between two points. (This was mostly more relevant back in the days when the road system was a mishmash of mud and gravel roads, and the road-building apparatus was young enough that there was concern about local interests manipulating US routes to serve themselves at the expense of long-distance travelers.) That policy means if a US route is upgraded to freeway, the US route is then committed to stay on the freeway. Moving it to a surface road would be moving it to a road that is not the best available route between two points, and therefore the application to move US-412 would be declined.
There are places where the US route parallels the Interstate, like US-77 through much of Oklahoma, but in this case, the Interstate was built separately and the US route was never moved to the Interstate. States have to initiate the route-designation change process, and if they have no interest in doing so, it never gets done. (This was done by design, at least south of OKC; small towns like Wayne and Paoli wanted the setup they currently have and I believe got it written into state law.)
There is one additional wrinkle here, which is that tolled US routes are not allowed except when there is a free alternate US route nearby. That's the real reason Scenic/Alternate 412 exists. (For the Cimarron, US-64 serves the role of the free alternate.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 17, 2021, 01:27:18 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 17, 2021, 01:27:18 PM
It's an interesting question if the Cimarron Turnpike Spur to Stillwater would get an Interstate designation. If the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur off I-44 is any precedent then I would guess not. The Cimarron Spur is a pretty short turnpike and has only one partial exit between its parent Turnpike and its terminus at US-177.
The cracking and packing techniques of gerrymandering are indeed on full display with US congressional districts. But I think the issues with little speed trap towns along US-69 are more of a state and local thing. A certain political party can try to do all it can to preserve the clout of itty bitty rural towns. However the population shift way from rural areas to urban/suburban is relentless.
The OKC and Tulsa metros are gaining state house districts. Everywhere rural is losing districts; seeing their district combined with one or more others. The updated state house district 61 takes up the entire OK Panhandle, plus Harper & Ellis County and a chunk of Woodward County. That's more geographical area than some small states. One state house rep gets to cover all of that. It's a visual testament to the population in those rural districts steadily dying off or migrating elsewhere. The same number of people in all those counties can be found in a tiny sliver of a district, such as district 71 in Tulsa.
Regardless of political party affiliation the interests of motorists in places like Tulsa are going to outweigh the interests in Stringtown. Anyone driving from Tulsa to Dallas would prefer an open road devoid of speed zones and traffic signals. Truckers taking US-69 from the Red River to meet I-44 in Big Cabin desire the same thing. Speed traps are universally despised. Time is not on the side of places like Stringtown.
Quote from: Scott5114Eh...I don't feel very bullish about Oklahoma's increasing urban population actually making much of a difference in how the state government operates. Case in point, see the congressional district map. They sliced Oklahoma City like a pie to keep it from having its own district.
The cracking and packing techniques of gerrymandering are indeed on full display with US congressional districts. But I think the issues with little speed trap towns along US-69 are more of a state and local thing. A certain political party can try to do all it can to preserve the clout of itty bitty rural towns. However the population shift way from rural areas to urban/suburban is relentless.
The OKC and Tulsa metros are gaining state house districts. Everywhere rural is losing districts; seeing their district combined with one or more others. The updated state house district 61 takes up the entire OK Panhandle, plus Harper & Ellis County and a chunk of Woodward County. That's more geographical area than some small states. One state house rep gets to cover all of that. It's a visual testament to the population in those rural districts steadily dying off or migrating elsewhere. The same number of people in all those counties can be found in a tiny sliver of a district, such as district 71 in Tulsa.
Regardless of political party affiliation the interests of motorists in places like Tulsa are going to outweigh the interests in Stringtown. Anyone driving from Tulsa to Dallas would prefer an open road devoid of speed zones and traffic signals. Truckers taking US-69 from the Red River to meet I-44 in Big Cabin desire the same thing. Speed traps are universally despised. Time is not on the side of places like Stringtown.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: LM117 on November 17, 2021, 03:21:47 PM
Post by: LM117 on November 17, 2021, 03:21:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 17, 2021, 01:20:03 PMAASHTO has had a policy since 1926 that US routes must follow the best available route between two points. (This was mostly more relevant back in the days when the road system was a mishmash of mud and gravel roads, and the road-building apparatus was young enough that there was concern about local interests manipulating US routes to serve themselves at the expense of long-distance travelers.) That policy means if a US route is upgraded to freeway, the US route is then committed to stay on the freeway. Moving it to a surface road would be moving it to a road that is not the best available route between two points, and therefore the application to move US-412 would be declined.
AASHTO doesn't seem to care about that policy as much these days, if the recent re-routings in NC are any indication.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 17, 2021, 03:57:50 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 17, 2021, 03:57:50 PM
Do you think they are going to grandfather this type of road as an interstate?
They would have to replace miles of steel cable with J barriers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51687918820_de1c10e234_o.png)
They would have to replace miles of steel cable with J barriers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51687918820_de1c10e234_o.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on November 17, 2021, 04:01:58 PM
Post by: US 89 on November 17, 2021, 04:01:58 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 17, 2021, 03:57:50 PM
Do you think they are going to grandfather this type of road as an interstate?
They would have to replace miles of steel cable with J barriers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51687918820_de1c10e234_o.png)
There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:
https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7
I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 17, 2021, 04:42:12 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 17, 2021, 04:42:12 PM
Looks like this corridor is starting to pay dividends already, assuming this isn't just some ploy to grab incentives to keep this company alive long enough to be bought out by bigger fish:
Electric car company Canoo announces plans to relocate headquarters to NWA (https://www.fayettevilleflyer.com/2021/11/16/electric-car-company-canoo-announces-plans-to-relocate-to-nwa/)
They have announced earlier their manufacturing facility will be in Pryor, OK, so they are keeping all their facilities near the US-412 corridor.
Electric car company Canoo announces plans to relocate headquarters to NWA (https://www.fayettevilleflyer.com/2021/11/16/electric-car-company-canoo-announces-plans-to-relocate-to-nwa/)
They have announced earlier their manufacturing facility will be in Pryor, OK, so they are keeping all their facilities near the US-412 corridor.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 18, 2021, 08:55:27 AM
Post by: edwaleni on November 18, 2021, 08:55:27 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 17, 2021, 04:01:58 PM
There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:
https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7
I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.
I don't think they are allowing these types of barriers anymore. The only override would be an act of Congress of course.
Anyone who thinks a 70mph truck is going to kept out of oncoming traffic with those 40 year old, 4 bolt anchors is kidding themselves.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 18, 2021, 09:15:14 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 18, 2021, 09:15:14 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 18, 2021, 08:55:27 AMQuote from: US 89 on November 17, 2021, 04:01:58 PM
There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:
https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7
I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.
I don't think they are allowing these types of barriers anymore. The only override would be an act of Congress of course.
Anyone who thinks a 70mph truck is going to kept out of oncoming traffic with those 40 year old, 4 bolt anchors is kidding themselves.
It'll take a rework of the divider for sure. This is barely more than an "Arkansas Freeway" (5-lane), which is what we throw up whenever a 2 lane isn't sufficient anymore.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on November 18, 2021, 12:02:53 PM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on November 18, 2021, 12:02:53 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 17, 2021, 04:01:58 PMQuote from: edwaleni on November 17, 2021, 03:57:50 PM
Do you think they are going to grandfather this type of road as an interstate?
They would have to replace miles of steel cable with J barriers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51687918820_de1c10e234_o.png)
There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:
https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7
I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.
That looks like an accident waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 18, 2021, 01:25:52 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 18, 2021, 01:25:52 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 18, 2021, 08:55:27 AMQuote from: US 89 on November 17, 2021, 04:01:58 PM
There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:
https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7
I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.
I don't think they are allowing these types of barriers anymore. The only override would be an act of Congress of course.
Anyone who thinks a 70mph truck is going to kept out of oncoming traffic with those 40 year old, 4 bolt anchors is kidding themselves.
Those barriers were built between 2013 and 2018–see street view.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: triplemultiplex on November 18, 2021, 04:21:15 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on November 18, 2021, 04:21:15 PM
Better than the mound o' grass that came before.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 18, 2021, 08:19:24 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 18, 2021, 08:19:24 PM
Quote from: US 89There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers
The H.E. Bailey Turnpike didn't have any barriers at all in its median strip for the longest time. It just had a grassy median strip about one lane wide. Very easy to cross for any motorist suffering a brain-fart. In the mid 1990's (early 1996 I think) a concrete Jersey barrier was added in the center median of I-44 turnpikes from the Medicine Park exit North of Lawton to the Missouri border. That was done shortly after a multiple fatality collision near the Elgin exit of I-44.
South of Lawton I-44 stayed the same for roughly another 20 years until they finally dug out the grassy median strip, paved over it and installed a cheaper cable barrier. That was done just a few years ago.
The Cimarron Turnpike had the grassy median strips and no cable barrier for even longer. There may be parts of the turnpike that still have nothing more than the strip of grass in the median. Google Earth imagery from 2019 shows that to be the case.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 18, 2021, 08:33:02 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 18, 2021, 08:33:02 PM
When I clinched the Indian Nation Turnpike (SH-375) on August 28, they were actively installing the cable barrier on parts of it. I believe other parts were still raised grass, with no work being done to change that at the time. I seem to recall there was even part of it with the raised grass median posted at 80 MPH.
I'm generally in favor of cable barriers, but with a median that narrow, especially a paved median, a Jersey barrier would be greatly appreciated.
I'm generally in favor of cable barriers, but with a median that narrow, especially a paved median, a Jersey barrier would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on November 19, 2021, 12:34:54 PM
Post by: US 89 on November 19, 2021, 12:34:54 PM
I didn't realize the Bailey turnpike originally also had that ugly median hill with no left shoulder or any sort of barrier. I knew they were around on portions of the INT and Cimarron but didn't know there were more of them out there. Looking around on GSV I'm seeing it on parts of other turnpikes too like the Muskogee and Cherokee.
Aside from the urban turnpikes (Creek/Kilpatrick/Kickapoo), were all the Oklahoma turnpikes originally built with that median design?
Aside from the urban turnpikes (Creek/Kilpatrick/Kickapoo), were all the Oklahoma turnpikes originally built with that median design?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 19, 2021, 01:31:46 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 19, 2021, 01:31:46 PM
The Chickasaw wasn't. :P
And I don't think the Cherokee was either, as it was built at the same time as the Creek and Kilpatrick turnpikes.
And I don't think the Cherokee was either, as it was built at the same time as the Creek and Kilpatrick turnpikes.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 19, 2021, 05:04:17 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 19, 2021, 05:04:17 PM
Quote from: Scott5114I'm generally in favor of cable barriers, but with a median that narrow, especially a paved median, a Jersey barrier would be greatly appreciated.
OTA is installing cable barriers because they cost 50% less than the concrete Jersey barriers. Of course they spun the choice in the news by saying the cable barrier slows down a vehicle that loses control and enters the median. The theory is vehicles just "bounce" off concrete barriers and remain out of control. The cable barriers are still a cost cutting choice.
A few years ago I did see a motorist (who I think was drunk) drift into the concrete median and put his car up on its right two wheels. It looked just like one of those car stunts in the movies. Amazingly he didn't crash out when the car came back down level (it sure sent out some sparks though). I called 911 and gave dispatch the car's plate number. I'd been watching this clown while driving back from OKC after a night out. He did his car stunt a few miles North of the Elgin exit on I-44. My girlfriend and I couldn't believe the guy didn't crash, especially with the way he had been driving for dozens of miles.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on November 21, 2021, 09:17:17 PM
Post by: rte66man on November 21, 2021, 09:17:17 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 19, 2021, 12:34:54 PM
I didn't realize the Bailey turnpike originally also had that ugly median hill with no left shoulder or any sort of barrier. I knew they were around on portions of the INT and Cimarron but didn't know there were more of them out there. Looking around on GSV I'm seeing it on parts of other turnpikes too like the Muskogee and Cherokee.
Aside from the urban turnpikes (Creek/Kilpatrick/Kickapoo), were all the Oklahoma turnpikes originally built with that median design?
Yes. The Turner was the first in 1953 and it had the raised grassy median. When the Will Rogers opened in 1958 it also had the raised median. As noted above, the Bailey had it when it opened in 1964. That was acceptable at the time. I can remember seeing accidents on the Turner where cars had tipped over as there was no inner shoulder. If your concentration lapsed, it wasn't hard to drift into the median.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 21, 2021, 11:30:00 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 21, 2021, 11:30:00 PM
TxDOT study on cable barriers installed on I-10.
MnDOT cable median installation results.
MnDOT cable median installation results.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 22, 2021, 07:53:51 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 22, 2021, 07:53:51 PM
Cable barriers probably are better for energy absorption for the party in the midst of the accident. But, it'd be a tough sell to convince me that with median widths like this that broken post parts flying through oncoming traffic's windshields is a reasonable tradeoff, assuming that the vehicle itself didn't still intrude into the oncoming lanes with higher angles of impact, even temporarily.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on November 23, 2021, 08:21:19 AM
Post by: bugo on November 23, 2021, 08:21:19 AM
The OTA built turnpikes using 1950s standards into the 1970s. They had raised grassy medians and no left shoulders. The Cimarron Turnpike, which was opened in 1975, is built to very similar standards as the Turner, Turnpike, which was opened in 1953. The only 4 lane divided rural turnpike that wasn't built with the narrow grassy medians was the Cherokee Turnpike, which was opened in 1991.
I have noticed that the Turner Turnpike is extremely straight, with long straight stretches and very few curves. The Will Rogers Turnpike, which opened in 1957, doesn't feature the long straight stretches and has more gentle curves than the Turner Turnpike does. The post-1960 turnpikes are generally curvier than the Turner Turnpike, but there is a 7 mile long arrow straight stretch on the southern part of the Muskogee Turnpike.
This is a quote from the Oklahoma turnpike Wikipedia page:
I question this claim, because I-35 was built with conventional medians instead of narrow raised grassy medians.. If the quote is accurate, then the ODOH significantly modified the OTA's original plans.
I have noticed that the Turner Turnpike is extremely straight, with long straight stretches and very few curves. The Will Rogers Turnpike, which opened in 1957, doesn't feature the long straight stretches and has more gentle curves than the Turner Turnpike does. The post-1960 turnpikes are generally curvier than the Turner Turnpike, but there is a 7 mile long arrow straight stretch on the southern part of the Muskogee Turnpike.
This is a quote from the Oklahoma turnpike Wikipedia page:
QuoteShortly after the Turner Turnpike was built in 1953, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority proposed other toll roads including one to be built from Oklahoma City north to the Kansas border near Braman to tie in with the southern terminus of the Kansas Turnpike at the state line. That routing was included as part of the Federal Highway Act of 1956 which created the Interstate Highway System. As a result, the OTA could not obtain financing to build that proposed turnpike and turned the initial plans including surveys and blueprints over to the Oklahoma Department of Transportation in 1956 for the construction of I-35 as a freeway on that same alignment, which was completed in several stages between 1958 and 1962.
I question this claim, because I-35 was built with conventional medians instead of narrow raised grassy medians.. If the quote is accurate, then the ODOH significantly modified the OTA's original plans.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 29, 2021, 03:24:32 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 29, 2021, 03:24:32 PM
Found an article about the bypassing of Siloam Springs. Apparently, there was an AHTD study back in 2004 before they 6-laned the road through town that had some alternatives they considered. I'd wager that the alternatives would also be considered assuming no developments impeded on them in the interim. I can't seem to find where the study was referenced in the article below, though.
https://hl.nwaonline.com/news/2021/may/30/what-a-future-interstate-could-mean-for-siloam/ (https://hl.nwaonline.com/news/2021/may/30/what-a-future-interstate-could-mean-for-siloam/)
https://hl.nwaonline.com/news/2021/may/30/what-a-future-interstate-could-mean-for-siloam/ (https://hl.nwaonline.com/news/2021/may/30/what-a-future-interstate-could-mean-for-siloam/)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 30, 2021, 10:32:54 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 30, 2021, 10:32:54 AM
Contacted the city administrator by email, and he was kind enough to email me the PDF of the study that was done in '04. There were 3 different bypass routes considered, but apparently the comments by locals swayed them towards the 6-laning they did instead.
https://misc.transport.road.narkive.com/C5tPsmXj/no-us-412-siloam-springs-bypass-to-be-built (https://misc.transport.road.narkive.com/C5tPsmXj/no-us-412-siloam-springs-bypass-to-be-built)
Here is a picture of the bypass options from 2004. I didn't know how to upload the full PDF to the Gallery as I couldn't find this study anywhere online, so just saved a snip of the map. Corridor B was the most inexpensive alternative.
(https://i.imgur.com/1tFYKni.jpg)
https://misc.transport.road.narkive.com/C5tPsmXj/no-us-412-siloam-springs-bypass-to-be-built (https://misc.transport.road.narkive.com/C5tPsmXj/no-us-412-siloam-springs-bypass-to-be-built)
Here is a picture of the bypass options from 2004. I didn't know how to upload the full PDF to the Gallery as I couldn't find this study anywhere online, so just saved a snip of the map. Corridor B was the most inexpensive alternative.
(https://i.imgur.com/1tFYKni.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bwana39 on December 02, 2021, 09:48:28 PM
Post by: bwana39 on December 02, 2021, 09:48:28 PM
I think they would have to replace the cables with Jersey Barriers or something of the sort to provide absolute separation. These opposite direction mainlanes separated by just cables just would not cut it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on December 02, 2021, 10:35:07 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 02, 2021, 10:35:07 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on December 02, 2021, 09:48:28 PMIt was done on an existing section of I-44 recently, south of Lawton, IIRC.
I think they would have to replace the cables with Jersey Barriers or something of the sort to provide absolute separation. These opposite direction mainlanes separated by just cables just would not cut it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 03, 2021, 01:03:29 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 03, 2021, 01:03:29 AM
Nearly all of I-44 South of Lawton is just cable barriers. There are some stretches featuring concrete Jersey barriers, but those are usually segments passing over creeks. I'm guessing there are certain bridge standards that must be upheld in those cases. South of the US-70 exit at Randlett I-44 spreads out with a wider median, but there is still a cable barrier running down one of the roadway edges to prevent crossover accidents. The same is true for I-44 within Lawton.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on December 03, 2021, 11:40:09 PM
Post by: Road Hog on December 03, 2021, 11:40:09 PM
This Bloomberg think piece might provide some push for an E-W corridor in NWA:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-11-30/austin-s-mega-growth-rubs-off-on-walmart-s-arkansas?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=view&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-view
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-11-30/austin-s-mega-growth-rubs-off-on-walmart-s-arkansas?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=view&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-view
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on December 04, 2021, 01:26:54 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on December 04, 2021, 01:26:54 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on December 03, 2021, 11:40:09 PM
This Bloomberg think piece might provide some push for an E-W corridor in NWA:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-11-30/austin-s-mega-growth-rubs-off-on-walmart-s-arkansas?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=view&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-view
I hope that what has happened in Austin doesn't happen here now that the secret's starting to get out. We are getting lots of visitors from Austin and Dallas especially in our BnB, as well as some from Oklahoma, so it's inevitable that the traffic counts are going to increase between NWA and Tulsa. Most coming from Texas are likely bypassing the turnpikes and shunting over I-40 and I-49 from US-69, though.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Tom958 on December 04, 2021, 05:30:02 AM
Post by: Tom958 on December 04, 2021, 05:30:02 AM
Quote from: bugo on November 23, 2021, 08:21:19 AMThis is a quote from the Oklahoma turnpike Wikipedia page:QuoteShortly after the Turner Turnpike was built in 1953, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority proposed other toll roads including one to be built from Oklahoma City north to the Kansas border near Braman to tie in with the southern terminus of the Kansas Turnpike at the state line. That routing was included as part of the Federal Highway Act of 1956 which created the Interstate Highway System. As a result, the OTA could not obtain financing to build that proposed turnpike and turned the initial plans including surveys and blueprints over to the Oklahoma Department of Transportation in 1956 for the construction of I-35 as a freeway on that same alignment, which was completed in several stages between 1958 and 1962.
I question this claim, because I-35 was built with conventional medians instead of narrow raised grassy medians.. If the quote is accurate, then the ODOH significantly modified the OTA's original plans.
I don't. Having a largely-completed set of plans for a narrow-median turnpike in hand would be hugely helpful in designing the eventual forty-foot-median Interstate highway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on December 04, 2021, 04:30:42 PM
Post by: rte66man on December 04, 2021, 04:30:42 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on December 04, 2021, 05:30:02 AMQuote from: bugo on November 23, 2021, 08:21:19 AMThis is a quote from the Oklahoma turnpike Wikipedia page:QuoteShortly after the Turner Turnpike was built in 1953, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority proposed other toll roads including one to be built from Oklahoma City north to the Kansas border near Braman to tie in with the southern terminus of the Kansas Turnpike at the state line. That routing was included as part of the Federal Highway Act of 1956 which created the Interstate Highway System. As a result, the OTA could not obtain financing to build that proposed turnpike and turned the initial plans including surveys and blueprints over to the Oklahoma Department of Transportation in 1956 for the construction of I-35 as a freeway on that same alignment, which was completed in several stages between 1958 and 1962.
I question this claim, because I-35 was built with conventional medians instead of narrow raised grassy medians.. If the quote is accurate, then the ODOH significantly modified the OTA's original plans.
I don't. Having a largely-completed set of plans for a narrow-median turnpike in hand would be hugely helpful in designing the eventual forty-foot-median Interstate highway.
Problem is that 35 wasn't built on the same proposed path of the Northern Turnpike. I'll have to dig it up but the line I saw ran further west of where 35 ended up.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 07, 2022, 10:38:38 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 07, 2022, 10:38:38 AM
Amazon coming to play in Wal-Mart's backyard. They've bought a warehouse in Lowell for last mile fulfillment.
https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/dec/29/amazon-has-plans-in-states-nw-area-nwaonline/ (https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/dec/29/amazon-has-plans-in-states-nw-area-nwaonline/)
Positioned right in the middle of US-71B, the AR-MO railroad, and the current Lowell I-49 exit and where the Springdale Northern Bypass will cross US-71B when they extend it eastward.
https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/dec/29/amazon-has-plans-in-states-nw-area-nwaonline/ (https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/dec/29/amazon-has-plans-in-states-nw-area-nwaonline/)
Positioned right in the middle of US-71B, the AR-MO railroad, and the current Lowell I-49 exit and where the Springdale Northern Bypass will cross US-71B when they extend it eastward.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 11, 2022, 05:05:57 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 11, 2022, 05:05:57 PM
There's been a debate about whether this corridor should become Interstate 46/48/50. Although I prefer 46, as long as it doesn't become Interstate 412, I could live with any of the three designations.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 11, 2022, 06:48:03 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 11, 2022, 06:48:03 PM
Has there been a debate outside of this message board?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 11, 2022, 07:36:43 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 11, 2022, 07:36:43 PM
I was referring to the debate on this message board. Since the US 412-to-Interstate proposal was only initiated last May, it will probably be a while before a number for the corridor is proposed, picked, and designated.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: NE2 on January 12, 2022, 09:36:24 AM
Post by: NE2 on January 12, 2022, 09:36:24 AM
Quote from: rte66man on December 04, 2021, 04:30:42 PMhttp://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=osu.32435013129754&seq=21
Problem is that 35 wasn't built on the same proposed path of the Northern Turnpike. I'll have to dig it up but the line I saw ran further west of where 35 ended up.
Looks pretty damn close, allowing for simplifications at the scale of the map.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on January 12, 2022, 01:16:47 PM
Post by: rte66man on January 12, 2022, 01:16:47 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 12, 2022, 09:36:24 AMQuote from: rte66man on December 04, 2021, 04:30:42 PMhttp://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=osu.32435013129754&seq=21
Problem is that 35 wasn't built on the same proposed path of the Northern Turnpike. I'll have to dig it up but the line I saw ran further west of where 35 ended up.
Looks pretty damn close, allowing for simplifications at the scale of the map.
You are correct. I seem to have confused the original Southern proposal with the northern.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 12, 2022, 02:21:16 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 12, 2022, 02:21:16 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 11, 2022, 07:36:43 PM
I was referring to the debate on this message board. Since the US 412-to-Interstate proposal was only initiated last May, it will probably be a while before a number for the corridor is proposed, picked, and designated.
It's almost assuredly a decade out from making any headway, at least, without a funding source secured. Oklahoma seems to struggle with projects that aren't tolled, although 99 miles of the 166 miles in OK are already turnpikes, so they only need to figure out the other 67 miles, and Arkansas needs to figure out a bypass of Siloam Springs and how best to convert the remaining miles to limited access from either the edge of Tontitown or where AR-612 bends south on the planned western segment.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on January 12, 2022, 07:02:20 PM
Post by: swake on January 12, 2022, 07:02:20 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on January 12, 2022, 02:21:16 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on January 11, 2022, 07:36:43 PM
I was referring to the debate on this message board. Since the US 412-to-Interstate proposal was only initiated last May, it will probably be a while before a number for the corridor is proposed, picked, and designated.
It's almost assuredly a decade out from making any headway, at least, without a funding source secured. Oklahoma seems to struggle with projects that aren't tolled, although 99 miles of the 166 miles in OK are already turnpikes, so they only need to figure out the other 67 miles, and Arkansas needs to figure out a bypass of Siloam Springs and how best to convert the remaining miles to limited access from either the edge of Tontitown or where AR-612 bends south on the planned western segment.
US-412 does not need that much work in Oklahoma.
It's 176 miles long and the current build is:
Sections with minor or zero needed upgrades (140 miles):
- 16 miles of currently signed interstate though Tulsa (244/44)
- 100 miles of turnpike
- 24 miles of existing limited access highway west of Tulsa. I think there is a single at grade road by Keystone Lake in this section that could likely be closed or rerouted.
Sections in need of major renovations/new construction (36 miles):
- 27 miles of divided but only partially limited access highway between Tulsa and the Cherokee turnpike. This section would not be too hard to upgrade using existing roadway and has some limited access exits already in place.
- 9 miles of mixed divided and non-divided highway east of the Cherokee going through West Siloam Springs. This section will at least partially require a new and very expensive bypass.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 24, 2022, 11:44:38 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 24, 2022, 11:44:38 PM
Quote from: swake on January 12, 2022, 07:02:20 PM
Sections in need of major renovations/new construction (36 miles):
- 27 miles of divided but only partially limited access highway between Tulsa and the Cherokee turnpike. This section would not be too hard to upgrade using existing roadway and has some limited access exits already in place.
- 9 miles of mixed divided and non-divided highway east of the Cherokee going through West Siloam Springs. This section will at least partially require a new and very expensive bypass.
The 27 miles between Tulsa and the Cherokee Turnpike are also punishing and in need of resurfacing in my opinion.
The Siloam Springs Bypass should have happened back when ARDOT decided to 6-lane US-412 through Siloam Springs, which was a short-sighted mistake. Public opinion in Siloam Springs held a little too much sway in this case, probably also in conjunction with Oklahoma not getting on board with their short portion around West Siloam Springs. This whole interstate redesignation would likely be fast-tracked as low-hanging fruit to make several politicians look good for re-election if it had happened when it made the most sense to do it. Arkansas sure does get the shaft on road projects being surrounded by perpetually broke transportation departments for several needed large interstate corridors, exception being Texas.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 25, 2022, 01:31:09 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 25, 2022, 01:31:09 AM
Isn't Inhofe "retiring" soon? I'd imagine this being his pet project he would want to have this completed before he leaves office as a part of his legacy.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on January 25, 2022, 01:38:03 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 25, 2022, 01:38:03 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 25, 2022, 01:31:09 AM
Isn't Inhofe "retiring" soon? I'd imagine this being his pet project he would want to have this completed before he leaves office as a part of his legacy.
His current term doesn't expire until 2027, when he'll be 92 years old. He says he doesn't plan to run for re-election in 2026, but I wouldn't be surprised if he changes his mind.
It might be kind of a tall order to get all of this done by 2027, especially in Oklahoma. About the best they could do is pick a number and slap some shields on the Cherokee Turnpike and the portions of existing I-244 and I-44 the route overlaps.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 25, 2022, 01:45:24 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 25, 2022, 01:45:24 AM
I wonder if we'll get any "future I-XX" signs.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 25, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 25, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 25, 2022, 01:45:24 AM
I wonder if we'll get any "future I-XX" signs.
Likely when they pick a number, they'll have one handy for the photo op and ready to put at logical checkpoints shortly thereafter.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 25, 2022, 06:59:25 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 25, 2022, 06:59:25 PM
Quote from: Plutonic PandaI wonder if we'll get any "future I-XX" signs.
Considering the proposed route runs through Tulsa I think there is a reasonably good chance "Future I-XX" signs could be erected in a few key places along the way. They would likely be ground-mounted, stand-alone signs no different in nature than signs naming a stretch of highway after someone or something.
Quote from: MikieTimTLikely when they pick a number, they'll have one handy for the photo op and ready to put at logical checkpoints shortly thereafter.
Very often signs made for photo ops are a crap shoot. There's no telling if the one-off signs would be made to proper MUTCD specifications, both in terms of design layout and materials specified. Any "Future I-XX" signs installed out in the field are supposed to adhere to proper specs. Signs for photo ops don't necessarily have to do that. Some politician, business guy or connected person volun-told to get a sign for the photo op would be prone to just call up any random sign company to do the work. Some sign companies might take the project seriously and try to do a good job. Many other sign companies wouldn't give two shits about following proper specs or even looking up the specs in the first place.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 25, 2022, 07:08:12 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 25, 2022, 07:08:12 PM
This latest one that I could find in the region wasn't too shabby.
(https://wehco.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2018/02/23/DWvhzqJVAAA0urU_t800.jpg?90232451fbcadccc64a17de7521d859a8f88077d)
(https://wehco.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2018/02/23/DWvhzqJVAAA0urU_t800.jpg?90232451fbcadccc64a17de7521d859a8f88077d)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 25, 2022, 07:20:17 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 25, 2022, 07:20:17 PM
That sign looks okay. I can't tell for sure if they used Type III retro-reflective sheeting. There is maybe a slight glimmer of it possibly in the "I-57" letters. Otherwise the colors look pretty flat and non-reflective. The Interstate 57 shield looks a bit big for the space available; I think the shields are supposed to have a little more negative space around them than that. Kerning looks too tight on the "FUTURE I-57" letters. Also the word "Future" doesn't need to be on the sign twice. The "Future I-57" message is alright, but I would have used the word "INTERSTATE" on the I-57 shield.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on January 25, 2022, 08:10:27 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 25, 2022, 08:10:27 PM
That one bugs me because the inner and outer radii of rounding on the corners don't match. The inner radius should be the outer radius minus the distance between the edges of them. (So a sign with a 1" radius on the blank and a quarter-inch border should have a ¾" radius of rounding on the border.)
Ever since Jake Bear taught me how that works I can't unsee it whenever someone else whiffs it.
Ever since Jake Bear taught me how that works I can't unsee it whenever someone else whiffs it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on January 25, 2022, 08:31:23 PM
Post by: skluth on January 25, 2022, 08:31:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 25, 2022, 08:10:27 PMHonestly, I hadn't noticed the corners until you mentioned it. But I'm not that concerned about spec-perfect signs. I'm fine with Clearview and button copy.
That one bugs me because the inner and outer radii of rounding on the corners don't match. The inner radius should be the outer radius minus the distance between the edges of them. (So a sign with a 1" radius on the blank and a quarter-inch border should have a ¾" radius of rounding on the border.)
Ever since Jake Bear taught me how that works I can't unsee it whenever someone else whiffs it.
I'm guessing it's a group of Future I-57 boosters based on their lapel stickers. They look like a group of Jaycees or Rotarians. It is fun to think it might happen.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on January 25, 2022, 09:19:15 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on January 25, 2022, 09:19:15 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on January 25, 2022, 05:09:23 PMI'm curious as to what number they would apply for. The route east of Tulsa falls between I-40 and I-44, which would nominally make it a candidate for I-42. But...I-42 has already been taken for the conversion of US-70 to interstate in North Carolina. Maybe I-46?Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 25, 2022, 01:45:24 AM
I wonder if we'll get any "future I-XX" signs.
Likely when they pick a number, they'll have one handy for the photo op and ready to put at logical checkpoints shortly thereafter.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bwana39 on January 25, 2022, 09:19:40 PM
Post by: bwana39 on January 25, 2022, 09:19:40 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on January 25, 2022, 07:08:12 PM
This latest one that I could find in the region wasn't too shabby.
(https://wehco.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2018/02/23/DWvhzqJVAAA0urU_t800.jpg?90232451fbcadccc64a17de7521d859a8f88077d)
the next to farthest to the right is the Chairman of the Arkansas Highway Commission. Robert S. Moore, Jr.
The shorter guy is Dick Tramell
The tall guy in the middle is Alec Farmer...
Looks like current and former members of the Arkansas Highway Commission with some others thrown in...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2022, 01:16:04 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2022, 01:16:04 AM
Quote from: Scott5114That one bugs me because the inner and outer radii of rounding on the corners don't match. The inner radius should be the outer radius minus the distance between the edges of them. (So a sign with a 1" radius on the blank and a quarter-inch border should have a ¾" radius of rounding on the border.)
Most big green sign panels have squared corners while the white reflective border has radiused corners. Most vector drawing applications (Adobe Illustrator, CorelDRAW, Affinity Designer, etc) have commands to enter in a specific corner radius on the corners of an object such as a rectangle. They also have path offset commands to create a duplicate path a specific distance inside or outside the source path. Most industry specific sign design apps can do the same thing. Just a couple or so clicks and you're done (perhaps with slightly different approaches depending on the software application). Whoever designed that Future I-57 sign didn't follow MUTCD/SHS specs for borders and corners.
Quote from: abqtravelerI'm curious as to what number they would apply for. The route east of Tulsa falls between I-40 and I-44, which would nominally make it a candidate for I-42. But...I-42 has already been taken for the conversion of US-70 to interstate in North Carolina. Maybe I-46?
I would prefer I-46 or I-48. Hell, it wouldn't bother me if it was a second I-42 for that matter. I wouldn't put it past one or more politicians to attempt using the I-50 designation, despite this being a short, non-major Interstate route.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 01:26:39 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 01:26:39 AM
I hate to rehash this but I will do it anyways.
Bobby, what's to stop this from becoming a long distance route one day and where would you have I-50 go without remembering other interstates?
Furthermore I present a better question, what's more likely:
Renumbering other interstates?
Or this road being named I-50 and going from I-49 to I-25?
Bobby, what's to stop this from becoming a long distance route one day and where would you have I-50 go without remembering other interstates?
Furthermore I present a better question, what's more likely:
Renumbering other interstates?
Or this road being named I-50 and going from I-49 to I-25?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 26, 2022, 05:35:33 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 26, 2022, 05:35:33 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 01:26:39 AM
I hate to rehash this but I will do it anyways.
Bobby, what's to stop this from becoming a long distance route one day and where would you have I-50 go without remembering other interstates?
Furthermore I present a better question, what's more likely:
Renumbering other interstates?
Or this road being named I-50 and going from I-49 to I-25?
HPC #8 was originally planned to go from Tulsa to Nashville along US-412. Since they've extended interstate designation westward past Tulsa all the way to I-35, then I-25 isn't out of the question eventually, and might even happen before it reaches I-57 and I-55, much less I-65 by Nashville as the terrain isn't that difficult to traverse, comparatively speaking. After I-57 is completed, I could actually see the push to make the portion of US-412 between Walnut Ridge, AR and Hayti, MO a short 75 mile temporary 3di interstate like I-49 in NWA was (I-540) before becoming subsumed into I-46/I-48/I-50 when the plan eventually moves forward to fill the gap between Springdale and Walnut Ridge, long into the future.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on January 26, 2022, 09:07:04 AM
Post by: abqtraveler on January 26, 2022, 09:07:04 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 01:26:39 AM
I hate to rehash this but I will do it anyways.
Bobby, what's to stop this from becoming a long distance route one day and where would you have I-50 go without remembering other interstates?
Furthermore I present a better question, what's more likely:
Renumbering other interstates?
Or this road being named I-50 and going from I-49 to I-25?
It'll never make it to I-25 because New Mexico will never build it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on January 26, 2022, 09:55:51 AM
Post by: edwaleni on January 26, 2022, 09:55:51 AM
Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2022, 09:07:04 AMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 01:26:39 AM
I hate to rehash this but I will do it anyways.
Bobby, what's to stop this from becoming a long distance route one day and where would you have I-50 go without remembering other interstates?
Furthermore I present a better question, what's more likely:
Renumbering other interstates?
Or this road being named I-50 and going from I-49 to I-25?
It'll never make it to I-25 because New Mexico will never build it.
Agreed. Not needed west of Enid. You are more likely to see a new N/S route (Del Rio to Pueblo via Lubbock) than an E/W route extension. Just not justified.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on January 26, 2022, 12:54:21 PM
Post by: rte66man on January 26, 2022, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 26, 2022, 09:55:51 AMQuote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2022, 09:07:04 AMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 01:26:39 AM
I hate to rehash this but I will do it anyways.
Bobby, what's to stop this from becoming a long distance route one day and where would you have I-50 go without remembering other interstates?
Furthermore I present a better question, what's more likely:
Renumbering other interstates?
Or this road being named I-50 and going from I-49 to I-25?
It'll never make it to I-25 because New Mexico will never build it.
Agreed. Not needed west of Enid. You are more likely to see a new N/S route (Del Rio to Pueblo via Lubbock) than an E/W route extension. Just not justified.
I don't think it's needed west of I-35. The existing 4 lane expressway from there to Enid is more than adequate to handle current and future traffic.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 01:28:41 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 01:28:41 PM
It's not needed now. Half a century forward? We've had infrastructure projects we planned for almost 100 years in advance(looking at you second ave subway). Texas is already working with New Mexico to build out the port to plains corridor which would bring a new interstate close to the Oklahoma panhandle. It's up to Oklahoma from there to decide to build a new freeway to connect to it. NM building their part seems more likely to happen then Oklahoma building my proposal.
Point is I think that is more likely to happen than renumbering other interstates. So then where would I-50 go? This is the most logical place to put it even if the other "proposed" extensions like a route from I-35 to a future I-17 north extension is a pipe dream and sits as nothing more than a proposal on a map for the next century. Though I'm sure if you even merely proposed it 80 years into the future you'd still have environmentalists shitting their pants.
Point is I think that is more likely to happen than renumbering other interstates. So then where would I-50 go? This is the most logical place to put it even if the other "proposed" extensions like a route from I-35 to a future I-17 north extension is a pipe dream and sits as nothing more than a proposal on a map for the next century. Though I'm sure if you even merely proposed it 80 years into the future you'd still have environmentalists shitting their pants.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2022, 02:23:12 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2022, 02:23:12 PM
Even half a century forward there is very little chance this US-412 Interstate would ever be extended outside the I-35 to I-49 span. It's a short distance route. Calling that thing "I-50" would be like building an Interstate quality highway from Tacoma to Port Angeles and calling that "I-1". Why not? Where else is it going to go?
Why does there even have to be an Interstate 50? There is no I-60 either. I don't think we'll ever use up all 99 possible two-digit route Interstate designations, certainly not in any manner that fits the grid. In the fictional roads area I had one I-50 idea that involved a Salt Lake City to Jacksonville, FL route (Provo, Green River, Grand Junction, Pueblo, Wichita, Springfield, Memphis, Birmingham, Columbus, Albany, Waycross, Jacksonville). A good bit of it would go outside grid logic (and consume I-22 as well as I-555), but it would cross just as much country as I-70. Some segments of that corridor concept will get built out to Interstate quality under different names; others are likely to never happen at all. Very little of this US-412 Interstate idea would exist outside Oklahoma. I know I-45 is a major Intra-State route, but that's Houston to DFW. And there is legit potential to extend I-45 Northward.
There is a number of possible future improved corridors in the region of Western OK, Western KS, Eastern CO and the TX Panhandle. I-27 may have a long term shot at being extended North into Colorado and up to Limon. I strongly believe Denver and Oklahoma City need a direct diagonal Interstate link just like what I-44 does between OKC and St Louis. That would benefit the broader Interstate system for long haul traffic. Major destinations get linked in those concepts. Maybe if that Denver-OKC route was ever built the new US-412 Interstate could be extended West to Woodward to merge into it. But not otherwise. With the current grid arrangement in place there isn't any justification to extend a US-412 freeway West as far as Woodward, much less any points farther West than that. Traffic counts aren't there to justify it. The road isn't traveling direct to big enough destinations.
Likewise, a US-412 Interstate going well East of Springdale is a non-starter. It could be extended as far as Huntsville. Past there such an effort would run into a whole lot of resistance.
Why does there even have to be an Interstate 50? There is no I-60 either. I don't think we'll ever use up all 99 possible two-digit route Interstate designations, certainly not in any manner that fits the grid. In the fictional roads area I had one I-50 idea that involved a Salt Lake City to Jacksonville, FL route (Provo, Green River, Grand Junction, Pueblo, Wichita, Springfield, Memphis, Birmingham, Columbus, Albany, Waycross, Jacksonville). A good bit of it would go outside grid logic (and consume I-22 as well as I-555), but it would cross just as much country as I-70. Some segments of that corridor concept will get built out to Interstate quality under different names; others are likely to never happen at all. Very little of this US-412 Interstate idea would exist outside Oklahoma. I know I-45 is a major Intra-State route, but that's Houston to DFW. And there is legit potential to extend I-45 Northward.
There is a number of possible future improved corridors in the region of Western OK, Western KS, Eastern CO and the TX Panhandle. I-27 may have a long term shot at being extended North into Colorado and up to Limon. I strongly believe Denver and Oklahoma City need a direct diagonal Interstate link just like what I-44 does between OKC and St Louis. That would benefit the broader Interstate system for long haul traffic. Major destinations get linked in those concepts. Maybe if that Denver-OKC route was ever built the new US-412 Interstate could be extended West to Woodward to merge into it. But not otherwise. With the current grid arrangement in place there isn't any justification to extend a US-412 freeway West as far as Woodward, much less any points farther West than that. Traffic counts aren't there to justify it. The road isn't traveling direct to big enough destinations.
Likewise, a US-412 Interstate going well East of Springdale is a non-starter. It could be extended as far as Huntsville. Past there such an effort would run into a whole lot of resistance.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 26, 2022, 03:33:25 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 26, 2022, 03:33:25 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2022, 02:23:12 PM
Even half a century forward there is very little chance this US-412 Interstate would ever be extended outside the I-35 to I-49 span. It's a short distance route. Calling that thing "I-50" would be like building an Interstate quality highway from Tacoma to Port Angeles and calling that "I-1". Why not? Where else is it going to go?
Why does there even have to be an Interstate 50? There is no I-60 either. I don't think we'll ever use up all 99 possible two-digit route Interstate designations, certainly not in any manner that fits the grid. In the fictional roads area I had one I-50 idea that involved a Salt Lake City to Jacksonville, FL route (Provo, Green River, Grand Junction, Pueblo, Wichita, Springfield, Memphis, Birmingham, Columbus, Albany, Waycross, Jacksonville). A good bit of it would go outside grid logic (and consume I-22 as well as I-555), but it would cross just as much country as I-70. Some segments of that corridor concept will get built out to Interstate quality under different names; others are likely to never happen at all. Very little of this US-412 Interstate idea would exist outside Oklahoma. I know I-45 is a major Intra-State route, but that's Houston to DFW. And there is legit potential to extend I-45 Northward.
There is a number of possible future improved corridors in the region of Western OK, Western KS, Eastern CO and the TX Panhandle. I-27 may have a long term shot at being extended North into Colorado and up to Limon. I strongly believe Denver and Oklahoma City need a direct diagonal Interstate link just like what I-44 does between OKC and St Louis. That would benefit the broader Interstate system for long haul traffic. Major destinations get linked in those concepts. Maybe if that Denver-OKC route was ever built the new US-412 Interstate could be extended West to Woodward to merge into it. But not otherwise. With the current grid arrangement in place there isn't any justification to extend a US-412 freeway West as far as Woodward, much less any points farther West than that. Traffic counts aren't there to justify it. The road isn't traveling direct to big enough destinations.
Likewise, a US-412 Interstate going well East of Springdale is a non-starter. It could be extended as far as Huntsville. Past there such an effort would run into a whole lot of resistance.
By the same token, why does an x0/x5 have to be a transcon by your logic? There's several exceptions to that rule already, and just because we don't foresee growth of an area over a 2-3 decade timeframe doesn't mean that it won't happen. Heck, 3 decades ago, folks would have laughed if you said that Benton/Washington/Madison county in Arkansas would be on the verge of being a Top 100 metro area in 2022/23, but here we are. In 3 decades, Northeast Arkansas might well be in a Top 150 metro area the way things are growing there now with Jonesboro's growth and all the new steel mills going in to the east of it, and you'd better believe that there would be a push to connect the top 2 growing areas of Arkansas just like there's a push to beef up the connection to Tulsa now. Once I-57 is done, I'd be shocked if the portion from Walnut Ridge to Hayti doesn't get a big push anyway as there's only one non-navigable river crossing, and then with I-155 there, the Mississippi River has a serviceable crossing for whatever makes sense to Tennessee, whether it be just push down to Jackson and call it a day, or run across US-70/70A from Dyersburg and run into Nashville proper without jumping south and then climb back north along I-40, which would likely need a 6 laning by then anyway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on January 26, 2022, 04:06:48 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 26, 2022, 04:06:48 PM
Now, I'm not going to be put out too much if this gets the number 46 or 48. But this project would likely be the only good opportunity to use the number 50 in a way that both makes sense with the grid and doesn't conflict with US-50. If we miss the opportunity to request the number now, chances are some other state isn't going to be as shy about it in the future and put somewhere that makes less sense, conflicts with US-50, or both, and probably isn't going to be transcontinental either.
And let's be real–this proposed interstate is about 200 miles long, with plausible destinations for extension on either end. I-97 it ain't. Sure, it's ⅔ the length of I-30 right now. But again...would you rather the I-50 number be used for this or get written into law to be some 7-mile spur in North Carolina?
And let's be real–this proposed interstate is about 200 miles long, with plausible destinations for extension on either end. I-97 it ain't. Sure, it's ⅔ the length of I-30 right now. But again...would you rather the I-50 number be used for this or get written into law to be some 7-mile spur in North Carolina?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 04:19:21 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2022, 04:19:21 PM
Yeah that is more or less my stance. It makes sense here.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on January 26, 2022, 04:27:32 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on January 26, 2022, 04:27:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 26, 2022, 04:06:48 PMLet's not forget there are still plenty of parkways in Kentucky that could be signed as I-50, should the KYTC get around to converting them to interstate standards.
Now, I'm not going to be put out too much if this gets the number 46 or 48. But this project would likely be the only good opportunity to use the number 50 in a way that both makes sense with the grid and doesn't conflict with US-50. If we miss the opportunity to request the number now, chances are some other state isn't going to be as shy about it in the future and put somewhere that makes less sense, conflicts with US-50, or both, and probably isn't going to be transcontinental either.
And let's be real–this proposed interstate is about 200 miles long, with plausible destinations for extension on either end. I-97 it ain't. Sure, it's ⅔ the length of I-30 right now. But again...would you rather the I-50 number be used for this or get written into law to be some 7-mile spur in North Carolina?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on January 26, 2022, 04:59:59 PM
Post by: skluth on January 26, 2022, 04:59:59 PM
It could also be I-22, with the current I-22 subsuming I-555. This might give added incentive to complete a freeway between NWA and Walnut Ridge (and possibly build a new Mississippi River crossing west of Millington to I-55). An eastward extension of whatever interstate US 412 becomes could be extended down I-555 and end near Memphis with a similar situation as I-29 and I-49 in Kansas City (or I-44 and I-64 once did in St Louis before I-64 was extended to Wentzville).
I was against this being I-50 at first, but I've come around to not really caring about it. I never liked I-30, I-45, and I-85 for not being long enough for a X-country number so I don't see why I-50 shouldn't be the same. As others pointed out, it's not like I-50 can be used logically in many other places. There could potentially be both an I-50 and US 50 in Missouri depending on if an how it's extended east, but there already is an I-72 and MO 72 so I don't think that will be an issue as the two "50's" would be far enough apart that there would be minimal confusion. It might be a larger issue should it reach WV and VA depending on routing.
I was against this being I-50 at first, but I've come around to not really caring about it. I never liked I-30, I-45, and I-85 for not being long enough for a X-country number so I don't see why I-50 shouldn't be the same. As others pointed out, it's not like I-50 can be used logically in many other places. There could potentially be both an I-50 and US 50 in Missouri depending on if an how it's extended east, but there already is an I-72 and MO 72 so I don't think that will be an issue as the two "50's" would be far enough apart that there would be minimal confusion. It might be a larger issue should it reach WV and VA depending on routing.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on January 26, 2022, 07:16:48 PM
Post by: US 89 on January 26, 2022, 07:16:48 PM
I give zero shits what they number this as long as it's two digits and even.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on January 26, 2022, 08:44:44 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on January 26, 2022, 08:44:44 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 26, 2022, 07:16:48 PMIt would be concerning if this was designated a north-south route.
I give zero shits what they number this as long as it's two digits and even.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on January 26, 2022, 08:45:22 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 26, 2022, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 26, 2022, 07:16:48 PM
I give zero shits what they number this as long as it's two digits and even.
A second I-44? :-D
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2022, 09:13:29 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2022, 09:13:29 PM
Quote from: Scott5114Now, I'm not going to be put out too much if this gets the number 46 or 48. But this project would likely be the only good opportunity to use the number 50 in a way that both makes sense with the grid and doesn't conflict with US-50. If we miss the opportunity to request the number now, chances are some other state isn't going to be as shy about it in the future and put somewhere that makes less sense, conflicts with US-50, or both, and probably isn't going to be transcontinental either.
It's pretty sad the only "good" argument for naming this US-412 Interstate "I-50" is a preemptive turn-and-burn of the designation before some politician elsewhere in the country dreams up an even more ridiculous use for the number.
Of course, given the fact there are detached duplicate 2-digit Interstates in various parts of the US (I-76, I-87, I-74, etc) if the I-50 syndrome is an ego-driven thing there is really nothing to stop a politician in Kentucky from renaming a parkway as I-50 even if the number gets used on US-412 here in Oklahoma.
I guess we can thank Bud Shuster and the nonsense known as I-99 for that crap. It kind of makes me regret even mentioning the "I-1" idea in Tacoma. Some jackass might see that in a web search and run with it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on January 26, 2022, 09:13:49 PM
Post by: Road Hog on January 26, 2022, 09:13:49 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 26, 2022, 04:59:59 PMI would be against calling it I-22 if the mileage north of I-40 exceeds the mileage south of it. Diagonal interstates generally violate the grid, but there needs to be a base definition.
It could also be I-22, with the current I-22 subsuming I-555. This might give added incentive to complete a freeway between NWA and Walnut Ridge (and possibly build a new Mississippi River crossing west of Millington to I-55). An eastward extension of whatever interstate US 412 becomes could be extended down I-555 and end near Memphis with a similar situation as I-29 and I-49 in Kansas City (or I-44 and I-64 once did in St Louis before I-64 was extended to Wentzville).
I was against this being I-50 at first, but I've come around to not really caring about it. I never liked I-30, I-45, and I-85 for not being long enough for a X-country number so I don't see why I-50 shouldn't be the same. As others pointed out, it's not like I-50 can be used logically in many other places. There could potentially be both an I-50 and US 50 in Missouri depending on if an how it's extended east, but there already is an I-72 and MO 72 so I don't think that will be an issue as the two "50's" would be far enough apart that there would be minimal confusion. It might be a larger issue should it reach WV and VA depending on routing.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 27, 2022, 11:48:29 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 27, 2022, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on January 26, 2022, 09:13:49 PM
I would be against calling it I-22 if the mileage north of I-40 exceeds the mileage south of it. Diagonal interstates generally violate the grid, but there needs to be a base definition.
True, but the grid needs violating as diagonal interstates are a good idea if you care anything about mileage efficiency when traveling. Since we seem to have a running theme with the 20 series outside of I-20, I-22 continuing on as a diagonal to the northwest as far as makes sense isn't bothersome.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2022, 04:18:49 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2022, 04:18:49 PM
The only 3 numbers the US 412 corridor could get is 46, 48 or 50. Personally, I would have continued the US 412 Interstate across Arkansas all the way to the Interstate 55/Interstate 155 interchange, but the traffic counts likely don't warrant it. Whatever number the US 412 corridor gets, the Interstate designation will likely be added in two phases: The Interstate 35-to-Interstate 44 segment would be designated first, since that segment is already a freeway/tollway combo for nearly its entire length. The Interstate 44-to-Interstate 49 segment would be designated later, since the upgrades would have to be far more extensive for that segment to be part of the Interstate System.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 04:29:16 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 04:29:16 PM
Theoretically 52, 54, 56, 58 are options, but they're increasingly less sensible the higher you go. 60 and 62 would conflict with US routes in both states so they're off the table, and all higher numbers between there and 70 are already used.
I think the first appearance of whatever the new number is will be a renumbering of the east-west portion of I-244 and the concurrency with I-44 to the SH-364 interchange, as that is the only part that unquestionably meets Interstate standard (by virtue of already being an Interstate). You could also probably slap a second discontiguous segment on the Cherokee, as it's new enough it probably meets Interstate standard.
The Cimarron will probably need some minor upgrades to meet Interstate standard, which OTA may drag their feet on because they're not getting additional revenue out of the infrastructure bill.
I think the first appearance of whatever the new number is will be a renumbering of the east-west portion of I-244 and the concurrency with I-44 to the SH-364 interchange, as that is the only part that unquestionably meets Interstate standard (by virtue of already being an Interstate). You could also probably slap a second discontiguous segment on the Cherokee, as it's new enough it probably meets Interstate standard.
The Cimarron will probably need some minor upgrades to meet Interstate standard, which OTA may drag their feet on because they're not getting additional revenue out of the infrastructure bill.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 27, 2022, 04:30:57 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 27, 2022, 04:30:57 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2022, 04:18:49 PM
The only 3 numbers the US 412 corridor could get is 46, 48 or 50. Personally, I would have continued the US 412 Interstate across Arkansas all the way to the Interstate 55/Interstate 155 interchange, but the traffic counts likely don't warrant it. Whatever number the US 412 corridor gets, the Interstate designation will likely be added in two phases: The Interstate 35-to-Interstate 44 segment would be designated first, since that segment is already a freeway/tollway combo for nearly its entire length. The Interstate 44-to-Interstate 49 segment would be designated later, since the upgrades would have to be far more extensive for that segment to be part of the Interstate System.
Looks like they could just about go ahead and relabel the I-35 to I-44 segment. Just a quick reroute of Diamond Head Rd. to the end of Keystone Dam would finish it out for limited access. Are the ramps everywhere good enough for interstate designation, or are some a project like US-67 (Future I-57) in Jacksonville?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 04:39:27 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 04:39:27 PM
I think the main problems with the Cimarron are going to be the median (is a cable barrier over a paved median (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3921983,-97.1148779,3a,31.3y,252.05h,87.98t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1scKBxQC70PgV8TemLEHAOEA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DcKBxQC70PgV8TemLEHAOEA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D48.06164%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) good enough for Interstate standard?) and possibly bridge clearances (it was built in an era where OTA was pretty cavalier about bridge standards).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on January 27, 2022, 04:44:11 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on January 27, 2022, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 04:29:16 PMIt violates the main standard of not being connected to any other interstate highway segment.
You could also probably slap a second discontiguous segment on the Cherokee, as it's new enough it probably meets Interstate standard.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 04:39:27 PMI-44 south of Lawton says it should work.
I think the main problems with the Cimarron are going to be the median (is a cable barrier over a paved median (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3921983,-97.1148779,3a,31.3y,252.05h,87.98t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1scKBxQC70PgV8TemLEHAOEA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DcKBxQC70PgV8TemLEHAOEA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D48.06164%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) good enough for Interstate standard?)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 05:06:32 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 05:06:32 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 27, 2022, 04:44:11 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 04:29:16 PMIt violates the main standard of not being connected to any other interstate highway segment.
You could also probably slap a second discontiguous segment on the Cherokee, as it's new enough it probably meets Interstate standard.
Historically, that rule has sort of gone out the window with these written-into-law Interstate segment designations (see the South Texas I-2/69E/69C complex).
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 27, 2022, 04:44:11 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 04:39:27 PMI-44 south of Lawton says it should work.
I think the main problems with the Cimarron are going to be the median (is a cable barrier over a paved median (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3921983,-97.1148779,3a,31.3y,252.05h,87.98t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1scKBxQC70PgV8TemLEHAOEA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DcKBxQC70PgV8TemLEHAOEA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D48.06164%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) good enough for Interstate standard?)
I-44 south of Lawton was also added to the Interstate system in the mid-80s, when standards were looser. FHWA may not be so forthcoming with design waivers these days.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on January 27, 2022, 05:11:49 PM
Post by: skluth on January 27, 2022, 05:11:49 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2022, 04:18:49 PM
The only 3 numbers the US 412 corridor could get is 46, 48 or 50. Personally, I would have continued the US 412 Interstate across Arkansas all the way to the Interstate 55/Interstate 155 interchange, but the traffic counts likely don't warrant it. Whatever number the US 412 corridor gets, the Interstate designation will likely be added in two phases: The Interstate 35-t
Never underestimate the power of business to push through new and upgraded highways regardless of current traffic. I wouldn't be surprised if JB Hunt and especially Walmart pushed for a North Arkansas four lane highway/ freeway to improve their connectivity to the interstate system east of the Mississippi. It could connect to both the future I-30/57 along the US 67 corridor and the I-555 corridor to Memphis. I wouldn't expect it until at least 2040 given the rate Arkansas builds highways and there's some fairly difficult terrain to cross (though not as difficult as I-49 between Ft Smith and Texarkana).
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 05:06:32 PMIt also won't matter as long as lawmakers propose a segment that connects to the system. It's not like politicians are shy about making promises for potential new highways to constituents regardless of how soon they might see it.Quote from: sprjus4 on January 27, 2022, 04:44:11 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 04:29:16 PMIt violates the main standard of not being connected to any other interstate highway segment.
You could also probably slap a second discontiguous segment on the Cherokee, as it's new enough it probably meets Interstate standard.
Historically, that rule has sort of gone out the window with these written-into-law Interstate segment designations (see the South Texas I-2/69E/69C complex).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on January 27, 2022, 05:13:00 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on January 27, 2022, 05:13:00 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 05:06:32 PMAs far as I'm aware, that is the only instance of the rule being violated - besides instances in the 1960s and 70s were isolated segments of completed highway were designated before connecting segments were constructed.
Historically, that rule has sort of gone out the window with these written-into-law Interstate segment designations (see the South Texas I-2/69E/69C complex).
Additionally, those three interstates do connect each other, form a complex of 117 total miles of freeway, and traverse an expansive metropolitan area.
A bit different than an isolated 32 mile rural segment of freeway that is a component of an otherwise arterial divided highway.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2022, 05:06:32 PMPerhaps. They may grant an exception given the project to replace the median was recent, and the freeway otherwise meets interstate standards.
I-44 south of Lawton was also added to the Interstate system in the mid-80s, when standards were looser. FHWA may not be so forthcoming with design waivers these days.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 27, 2022, 10:23:50 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 27, 2022, 10:23:50 PM
Quote from: Scott5114I think the first appearance of whatever the new number is will be a renumbering of the east-west portion of I-244 and the concurrency with I-44 to the SH-364 interchange, as that is the only part that unquestionably meets Interstate standard (by virtue of already being an Interstate). You could also probably slap a second discontiguous segment on the Cherokee, as it's new enough it probably meets Interstate standard.
It's also possible the route designation will appear on the AR-612 freeway stub in Springdale going West off of I-49. It would be a political move to get a visual place holder on the map for the East end of that Interstate designation.
Quote from: Scott5114The Cimarron will probably need some minor upgrades to meet Interstate standard, which OTA may drag their feet on because they're not getting additional revenue out of the infrastructure bill.
I think the upgrades needed are somewhat substantial. Extensive work on shoulders is needed, including work on some bridges. That can get pricey. There is even an at-grade street intersection just West of the OK-151 interchange.
Some portions of the Cimarron Turnpike near the Stillwater Spur may still have those narrow grassy median strips with no cable barrier. OTA has worked to replace some of that with concrete in cable barriers in the past couple or so years.
Quote from: Scott5114I think the main problems with the Cimarron are going to be the median (is a cable barrier over a paved median good enough for Interstate standard?) and possibly bridge clearances (it was built in an era where OTA was pretty cavalier about bridge standards).Quote from: sprjus4I-44 south of Lawton says it should work.Quote from: Scott5114I-44 south of Lawton was also added to the Interstate system in the mid-80s, when standards were looser. FHWA may not be so forthcoming with design waivers these days.
The OKC to Wichita Falls leg of I-44 was added in 1982. For much of that time the H.E. Bailey Turnpike had only the narrow grassy median. Not long after a multiple fatality collision near Elgin in the mid 1990's the grassy median was paved over and a concrete Jersey barrier was added. That barrier work was completed on I-44 turnpikes from the Medicine Park exit (North of Lawton) up to the Missouri border. The segment of I-44 South of Lawton has had the grassy median nonsense until the 2014-15 time frame when it was finally covered with concrete and equipped with a cable barrier. Considering how recently that treatment was added it must be good enough for current Interstate standards.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 28, 2022, 07:30:19 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 28, 2022, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 27, 2022, 10:23:50 PM
It's also possible the route designation will appear on the AR-612 freeway stub in Springdale going West off of I-49. It would be a political move to get a visual place holder on the map for the East end of that Interstate designation.
Arkansas has a history with I-49 getting signed before connecting with it's other segments, case in point the portion from Alma to Bella Vista. However, it also has had issues with getting the designation it wanted from AASHTO in that it originally had to call it I-540 as they didn't approve the original submission of I-49 when AHTD asked for it back in the late 1990's. That has caused the cluster of a mile marker and exit number scheme that I-49 north of I-40 has, which they made worse recently by removing 3 correct exit numbers on the BVB and replacing with incorrect exit numbers to keep the scheme for what now seems like the foreseeable future. So, unless the route number gets Congressionally designated like I-57 did in northeastern AR and southeast MO, I wouldn't expect the lead to come from the Arkansas side even if it makes more concrete steps towards the OK border. The Siloam Springs Bypass will inevitably become another Bella Vista Bypass scenario with its coordination between 2 poor states to cross the border around a city taking probably well over a decade with one state having the money before the other state has it. The good thing is that now with the Bella Vista Bypass completed finally, there is now a template for success to refer to going forward on how to do it. Even if I don't personally consider it done until they fix the mile markers and exit numbers.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 28, 2022, 09:40:36 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 28, 2022, 09:40:36 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2022, 09:13:29 PMQuote from: Scott5114Now, I'm not going to be put out too much if this gets the number 46 or 48. But this project would likely be the only good opportunity to use the number 50 in a way that both makes sense with the grid and doesn't conflict with US-50. If we miss the opportunity to request the number now, chances are some other state isn't going to be as shy about it in the future and put somewhere that makes less sense, conflicts with US-50, or both, and probably isn't going to be transcontinental either.
It's pretty sad the only "good" argument for naming this US-412 Interstate "I-50" is a preemptive turn-and-burn of the designation before some politician elsewhere in the country dreams up an even more ridiculous use for the number.
Of course, given the fact there are detached duplicate 2-digit Interstates in various parts of the US (I-76, I-87, I-74, etc) if the I-50 syndrome is an ego-driven thing there is really nothing to stop a politician in Kentucky from renaming a parkway as I-50 even if the number gets used on US-412 here in Oklahoma.
I guess we can thank Bud Shuster and the nonsense known as I-99 for that crap. It kind of makes me regret even mentioning the "I-1" idea in Tacoma. Some jackass might see that in a web search and run with it.
It's not the only good argument. As delineated in the wording of the legislation, it wouldn't make sense to use I-50. However, there is much evidence outside of just this legislation that there are plans, for good reason too I might add, to extend eastward from I-49. ISTEA made all of US-412 from Tulsa to Nashville HPC #8, which means that the intent is to upgrade it to 4 lanes throughout. I don't necessarily care for the portion that drops south of I-40 at Jackson into that connection to Nashville, but since I have no power or money and thus no sway in the matter, what I think isn't germane in the grand scheme of things. But HPC #8 is codified in legislation, so those that do have sway have made it so. No money was dedicated as part of it, so it's certainly an unfunded mandate and thus the states in question, all of which are on the more impoverished side of the spectrum with higher priority considerations which they are rightly focused on, have not pushed very hard on this early 90's vision of the road system.
However, Arkansas does ultimately plan to make US-412 a 4 lanes across the state regardless of what happens with the bordering states. See page 7 of 60:https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf
Funding obviously limits the rate in which it will occur, and thus it will happen piecemeal and around the higher density areas first without federal assistance greater than what it's currently getting. And a 4 lane facility can take multiple forms, but if it's an Interstate for a portion of it, and there's enough large or growing metros in the desired path, then it makes sense to consider limited access at as early a stage as possible for the remainder to be good financial stewards. There are bypasses for Harrison planned, a bypass of Paragould in the works, but otherwise currently just some climb lanes in the more remote and craggy sections. However, there's a need to address some bridges and other structures in eastern AR due to flooding and seismic resiliency regardless of the timing of any 4-laning, so it makes sense to consider just going ahead with an upgrade to 4 lane at that time regardless of AADT when the vision calls for it anyway ultimately. That will happen in eastern AR before the midsections Huntsville and Harrison and Mountain Home to Black Rock. I think that when the bypass of Harrison is completed, it will knock 15 minutes off the trip all by itself and start drawing traffic off I-40, US-64, and Future I-57, increasing the AADT of US-412 even in the remote sections of Arkansas. I absolutely hate having to take I-49, I-40, US-64, and US-67/AR-226 to Jonesboro from NWA, but that's currently the shortest way, and I usually schedule a stop in Little Rock to take care of some onsite work to cut out the US-64 portion and make a little more money. On my return trip, I almost always go back west over US-412 for a change in scenery, but it comes at a 30-40 minute penalty on time despite being over 40 miles less mileage. This road will get upgraded despite traffic counts due to accident counts, especially those involving semis, which happen at double the national rate. It's part of Arkansas' 4 lane grid vision and the current facility is dangerous and inadequate for the growing needs of the area.
It's only a matter of time before US-412 is 4 laned completely across Arkansas. Probably won't happen before I retire from traveling gigs and thus I generally won't personally benefit from the vision, but my kids will. A good part of what we work on isn't for our benefit, but to setup the next generation with a better foundation than what we had to blow past our successes. 4 laning US-412 will happen regardless of label. The EIHS needs beefing up in this area for resiliency sake with the possibility of earthquake, flood, fire, and ice closing down I-40 as well as the current creaky US-412 eastern Arkansas infrastructure as it stands.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 29, 2022, 11:55:47 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 29, 2022, 11:55:47 AM
Quote from: MikieTimTIt's not the only good argument. As delineated in the wording of the legislation, it wouldn't make sense to use I-50. However, there is much evidence outside of just this legislation that there are plans, for good reason too I might add, to extend eastward from I-49. ISTEA made all of US-412 from Tulsa to Nashville HPC #8, which means that the intent is to upgrade it to 4 lanes throughout.
Lots of those High Priority Corridors drawn up in legislation 20+ years ago are never going to happen, certainly not as full-blown Interstate routes. Lots of federal legislation ends up scuttled.
Arkansas may intend to upgrade US-412 across Northern Arkansas to 4 lanes, but the 4 lanes can be anything from an undivided 4-lane street to something divided with freeway exits. Chances are very minimal US-412 will upgraded to 100% limited access between Springdale (I-49) and Hayti (I-55). Simple undivided 4-lane upgrades will be difficult to build. I would expect people in the town of Henderson, just East of Mountain Home, would raise hell about highway construction through there.
There is a much better chance for US-60 across Southern Missouri from Springfield to Sikeston to get upgraded to full Interstate standards. But they've already been working on that corridor, building spot upgrades here and there, for decades. And it still has a long way to go before being an Interstate-class facility. US-412 across Northern Arkansas is a very long way behind US-60 in Southern Missouri in terms of corridor development.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on January 29, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 29, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Problem is, US-60 across southern Missouri, while it serves kind of the same general purpose as US-412 would, is currently very awkward to get to from the NW Arkansas metro. You either have to make an L-shaped route using I-49 and and I-44, or take the winding US-412 route to US-65 and go through Branson. Neither are really appealing. That's probably why when I lived in Springfield I never really heard of people going to NW Arkansas, or people from NW Arkansas visiting Springfield, very often, despite the metros being fairly close to one another.
In an ideal world, you could do a diagonal route between Bentonville and Springfield, but that goes through a lot of very rugged terrain, and the White and James rivers both kind of get in the way. It would also involve plowing through what few suburbs Springfield has.
Part of the problem with US-412 east of I-49 is that it's a very winding road. It's hard to build up much speed there since you're just going to have to brake again to go around another curve. If that stretch is ever going to be four-laned, it's going to have to be done from scratch on a new, straighter alignment anyway. If you're going to go to that trouble, you may as well make it a limited-access corridor, or at least take steps to make it so that it could become one in the future.
Upgrading US-412 to the future I-57 corridor makes some degree of sense, because that would make accessing US-65 to Springfield easier, and give a nice diagonal route up to Kentucky and the Midwest for NW Arkansas residents.
In an ideal world, you could do a diagonal route between Bentonville and Springfield, but that goes through a lot of very rugged terrain, and the White and James rivers both kind of get in the way. It would also involve plowing through what few suburbs Springfield has.
Part of the problem with US-412 east of I-49 is that it's a very winding road. It's hard to build up much speed there since you're just going to have to brake again to go around another curve. If that stretch is ever going to be four-laned, it's going to have to be done from scratch on a new, straighter alignment anyway. If you're going to go to that trouble, you may as well make it a limited-access corridor, or at least take steps to make it so that it could become one in the future.
Upgrading US-412 to the future I-57 corridor makes some degree of sense, because that would make accessing US-65 to Springfield easier, and give a nice diagonal route up to Kentucky and the Midwest for NW Arkansas residents.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 29, 2022, 07:16:58 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 29, 2022, 07:16:58 PM
I didn't mean to suggest US-60 would be an alternative corridor for US-412. The main reason why I brought it up is that US-60 is a somewhat similar corridor in the same general region. Missouri has been working on upgrading it for a long time yet it is still nowhere near finished. US-412 is much farther behind with similar upgrades. US-60 just illustrates how daunting a challenge it would be to upgrade US-412 across Northern Arkansas.
IIRC, US-60 across Southern Missouri was also part of a High Priority Corridor and proposals to radically extend I-66.
IIRC, US-60 across Southern Missouri was also part of a High Priority Corridor and proposals to radically extend I-66.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 29, 2022, 07:17:44 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 29, 2022, 07:17:44 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 29, 2022, 11:55:47 AMQuote from: MikieTimTIt's not the only good argument. As delineated in the wording of the legislation, it wouldn't make sense to use I-50. However, there is much evidence outside of just this legislation that there are plans, for good reason too I might add, to extend eastward from I-49. ISTEA made all of US-412 from Tulsa to Nashville HPC #8, which means that the intent is to upgrade it to 4 lanes throughout.
Lots of those High Priority Corridors drawn up in legislation 20+ years ago are never going to happen, certainly not as full-blown Interstate routes. Lots of federal legislation ends up scuttled.
Arkansas may intend to upgrade US-412 across Northern Arkansas to 4 lanes, but the 4 lanes can be anything from an undivided 4-lane street to something divided with freeway exits. Chances are very minimal US-412 will upgraded to 100% limited access between Springdale (I-49) and Hayti (I-55). Simple undivided 4-lane upgrades will be difficult to build. I would expect people in the town of Henderson, just East of Mountain Home, would raise hell about highway construction through there.
There is a much better chance for US-60 across Southern Missouri from Springfield to Sikeston to get upgraded to full Interstate standards. But they've already been working on that corridor, building spot upgrades here and there, for decades. And it still has a long way to go before being an Interstate-class facility. US-412 across Northern Arkansas is a very long way behind US-60 in Southern Missouri in terms of corridor development.
US-60 may be easier to turn into an interstate between the endpoints you stated above, but it certainly doesn't connect anything major (Springfield is a major metro area with a pretty stagnant population over the last decade, Sikeston not so much and shrinking since the 90's) while staying on a general latitude, while US-412 does, at least across a couple of states. US-60 takes a dive to the southwest halfway across Oklahoma (and drops south of US-412 past its concurrency with it past Enid, OK) until it intersects I-40 at Amarillo, so it doesn't make a case as a transcon any more than US-412 does, so anyone with aspirations of reserving I-50 for US-60 would have trouble finding anything more than the portion across Missouri that even somewhat retains a rough latitude. Missouri also doesn't have a recent history of doing much at all in the way of roadbuilding that didn't involve Arkansas and will update a portion of that very segment for the I-57 project that they'll also share with Arkansas. That being said, an x44 or x57 between Springfield and Poplar Bluff does make some sense as much of the hard work has already been done. I don't really see the push past Springfield westward however, unless there was some sort of economic growth between it and Wichita, jumping off the US-60 and onto US-160/400 lateral.
As far as Henderson, AR goes, it's an tiny unincorporated retirement community with a handful of people, so the stink they raise will be proportional to how loud they are, not due to any political influence the community has. It's not like it couldn't be bypassed to the south anyway fairly easily since Mountain Home's 4 lane divided bypass, itself easily converted to limited access and already has a grade separated exit with AR-5, runs to the south.
US-412 between the Huntsville and Harrison, and also from Harrison to Hardy at least, will have to be built on completely new alignment as funding permits between the city bypassing that has already been planned or undertaken all across northern Arkansas as is typical ARDOT fashion, but the current US-412 facility, unsuitable for the traffic counts it already has, will continue to serve everything in between. The current work to put climb lanes on US-412 is pretty much like they did with US-71 in NWA before it was wholesale replaced with I-49. Buying time until the real plan can get started. Having any portion of US-412 in Arkansas as an Interstate will prod consideration to continue it on.
None of this happens within the next 15 years (other than some potential city bypasses, especially Harrison, which everyone, especially my Asian wife, would like to avoid driving through) given I-49 and I-57's priorities. Also, Little Rock's roads are always a perpetual priority in Arkansas despite its growth being slower than even Springfield's metro area, but US-412's upgrade is going to happen due to growth patterns that barely bother to pause growth during recessions whereas all of southern Missouri, other than the 10% growth in the Springfield metro and also the counties between Joplin and NWA, has stagnated or even shrunk, good times and bad. If you look at the population changes by county for the last 10 years and likely even further back, nearly every single county in Oklahoma and Arkansas along the US-412 corridor, except for the panhandle of Oklahoma, has been growing. That necessitates addressing the transportation bottlenecks the region has.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 29, 2022, 07:43:33 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 29, 2022, 07:43:33 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Problem is, US-60 across southern Missouri, while it serves kind of the same general purpose as US-412 would, is currently very awkward to get to from the NW Arkansas metro. You either have to make an L-shaped route using I-49 and and I-44, or take the winding US-412 route to US-65 and go through Branson. Neither are really appealing. That's probably why when I lived in Springfield I never really heard of people going to NW Arkansas, or people from NW Arkansas visiting Springfield, very often, despite the metros being fairly close to one another.
Agreed
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
In an ideal world, you could do a diagonal route between Bentonville and Springfield, but that goes through a lot of very rugged terrain, and the White and James rivers both kind of get in the way. It would also involve plowing through what few suburbs Springfield has.
Part of the problem with US-412 east of I-49 is that it's a very winding road. It's hard to build up much speed there since you're just going to have to brake again to go around another curve. If that stretch is ever going to be four-laned, it's going to have to be done from scratch on a new, straighter alignment anyway. If you're going to go to that trouble, you may as well make it a limited-access corridor, or at least take steps to make it so that it could become one in the future.
^^^^
This
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Upgrading US-412 to the future I-57 corridor makes some degree of sense, because that would make accessing US-65 to Springfield easier, and give a nice diagonal route up to Kentucky and the Midwest for NW Arkansas residents.
US-65 is 4 lane divided with few at-grade intersections from Harrison to I-44, and it would be trivial to upgrade to a limited access facility. FedEx Freight (LTL branch of FedEx) is headquartered in Harrison, so there's trucking benefits to upgrading the roads fanning out from it, although that by itself isn't enough an impetus. Wal-Mart Store number 2 is there as well, so there's that too.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 29, 2022, 10:51:38 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 29, 2022, 10:51:38 PM
Quote from: MikieTimTUS-60 may be easier to turn into an interstate between the endpoints you stated above, but it certainly doesn't connect anything major (Springfield is a major metro area with a pretty stagnant population over the last decade, Sikeston not so much and shrinking since the 90's) while staying on a general latitude, while US-412 does, at least across a couple of states.
Neither US-60 across Southern Missouri or US-412 across Northern Arkansas are particularly significant corridors. There is a difficult case to make for upgrading either corridor to full Interstate standards.
When Missouri's portion of US-60 was included as part of a much larger I-66 proposal it had much more potential. I think that was one of the motivations for MO DOT to upgrade nearly all of it to 4-lane divided and have sporadic stretches of freeway and limited access exits. Perhaps when I-57 is built up thru Poplar Bluff and over to Sikeston it might provide some extra incentive to do more limited access spot upgrades along the route. Nevertheless, without a larger multi-state big picture effort it's going to be a long time before US-60 across Southern Missouri is fully an Interstate-quality freeway, much less something that carries an Interstate number.
There is little point of upgrading US-412 East of Springdale to Interstate standards. If AR DOT is going to 4-lane it, I'll bet the end product ends up being a LOT of undivided 4-lane road. There are no major destinations along US-412 going East of Springdale. Memphis would be the next one to the East. But motorists in NWA would be better off taking I-49 down to Fort Smith and I-40 across. US-412 takes such a curvy, winding path from Springdale to Walnut Ridge there would likely be little in the way of mileage/time savings versus the existing I-49/I-40 route.
BTW, Henderson wouldn't be the only town with residents crying foul about highway construction thru their areas. There are other spots along the way with scenic/recreational use locals there wouldn't want adversely affected. Then there's the other usual matter of small towns not wanting to be fully bypassed by a highway either. Henderson is an obvious example because of the Norfolk Lake area there. Even building a non-divided 4-lane road there will likely meet a lot of resistance.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on January 29, 2022, 11:13:11 PM
Post by: US 89 on January 29, 2022, 11:13:11 PM
I don't know that it needs to be interstate standard, but if Arkansas is going to spend money on road improvements in the northeast part of the state, I think it'd be better spent on four-laning US 63. That is the main route from Kansas City and much of the western part of the US to Memphis and points southeast, and as a result in my experience there is a fair bit of truck traffic on it. Part of it is concurrent with US 412, so maybe something happens with it?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on January 30, 2022, 12:35:12 PM
Post by: skluth on January 30, 2022, 12:35:12 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 29, 2022, 11:13:11 PMUpgrading the highway between Cherokee Village and Walnut Ridge for US 412 also upgrades US 63 between the same two towns. The only other two lane segment of US 63 in Arkansas is a short but not easy to upgrade segment north from Hardy to Missouri.
I don't know that it needs to be interstate standard, but if Arkansas is going to spend money on road improvements in the northeast part of the state, I think it'd be better spent on four-laning US 63. That is the main route from Kansas City and much of the western part of the US to Memphis and points southeast, and as a result in my experience there is a fair bit of truck traffic on it. Part of it is concurrent with US 412, so maybe something happens with it?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on January 30, 2022, 01:02:07 PM
Post by: skluth on January 30, 2022, 01:02:07 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on January 29, 2022, 07:17:44 PMJust wanted to point out that Little Rock is still experiencing decent growth, especially when compared to the rest of Arkansas. It's just not the explosive growth of NWA. Little Rock grew by 4.7% during the teens. The metro grew 6.9%. Both are still better than Arkansas as a whole which only grew by 3.3%. Little Rock's metro is growing over twice the rate of the state. Little Rock isn't close to the near 25% growth of NWA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area), but that doesn't mean Little Rock isn't experiencing growing pains. I'd be more concerned about the 70% of Arkansas counties that lost population (https://senate.arkansas.gov/senate-news/posts/2021/august/new-census-shows-33-percent-population-growth-in-arkansas/#:~:text=In%20Arkansas%2C%20cities%20gained%20population,which%20grew%20by%2021.1%20percent.) yet still want new highways.
(text deleted)
Little Rock's roads are always a perpetual priority in Arkansas despite its growth being slower than even Springfield's metro area
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on January 30, 2022, 01:02:58 PM
Post by: US 89 on January 30, 2022, 01:02:58 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 30, 2022, 12:35:12 PMQuote from: US 89 on January 29, 2022, 11:13:11 PMUpgrading the highway between Cherokee Village and Walnut Ridge for US 412 also upgrades US 63 between the same two towns. The only other two lane segment of US 63 in Arkansas is a short but not easy to upgrade segment north from Hardy to Missouri.
I don't know that it needs to be interstate standard, but if Arkansas is going to spend money on road improvements in the northeast part of the state, I think it'd be better spent on four-laning US 63. That is the main route from Kansas City and much of the western part of the US to Memphis and points southeast, and as a result in my experience there is a fair bit of truck traffic on it. Part of it is concurrent with US 412, so maybe something happens with it?
Right. I guess I'm saying that instead of upgrading US 412 with a side benefit of improving US 63, they should be upgrading US 63 with a side benefit of improving US 412. Obviously Missouri would also have to do some work south of West Plains, but as far as that area goes, US 63 seems more worthy of improving than 412.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on January 30, 2022, 04:03:57 PM
Post by: skluth on January 30, 2022, 04:03:57 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 30, 2022, 01:02:58 PMI agree US 63 should be four lanes; I also wanted it four lanes from Rolla to Cabool when I lived in St Louis. I remember US 51 becoming much busier south of the Illinois River once the I-39 Lincoln Bridge was built which made the need for finishing I-39 between Peru and Bloomington an even higher priority. From my POV, I'd prioritize upgrading US 62/63/412 from Cherokee Village to Walnut Ridge and see how that affects traffic. I wouldn't be surprised to see even more truck traffic use US 63 if the only two lane stretch was for under 20 miles.Quote from: skluth on January 30, 2022, 12:35:12 PMQuote from: US 89 on January 29, 2022, 11:13:11 PMUpgrading the highway between Cherokee Village and Walnut Ridge for US 412 also upgrades US 63 between the same two towns. The only other two lane segment of US 63 in Arkansas is a short but not easy to upgrade segment north from Hardy to Missouri.
I don't know that it needs to be interstate standard, but if Arkansas is going to spend money on road improvements in the northeast part of the state, I think it'd be better spent on four-laning US 63. That is the main route from Kansas City and much of the western part of the US to Memphis and points southeast, and as a result in my experience there is a fair bit of truck traffic on it. Part of it is concurrent with US 412, so maybe something happens with it?
Right. I guess I'm saying that instead of upgrading US 412 with a side benefit of improving US 63, they should be upgrading US 63 with a side benefit of improving US 412. Obviously Missouri would also have to do some work south of West Plains, but as far as that area goes, US 63 seems more worthy of improving than 412.
I do wonder if Missouri's effort to upgrade US 67 to the Arkansas line (https://www.modot.org/futureI57) will prompt Arkansas to prioritize upgrading the rest of US 67 north of Walnut Ridge (or Pocahontas if the routing stays north of the Black River) over US 412 in NE Arkansas.
Humorous observation: Someone messed up US 412 in the database for Google Maps. It's currently showing a BUS for Business Route above the shield the entire length of US 412. :-/
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 30, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 30, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
US-63 in NE Arkansas has more potential as a long distance corridor since it points directly to I-555 and I-22. I'd like to see I-22 extended farther SE from Birmingham down thru Opelika; Columbus, GA; Albany, GA; Waycross, GA and Jacksonville, FL. Nearly all the existing route from Birmingham to Jacksonville is divided 4-lane. But it would probably carry a lot more traffic as an Interstate.
US-63 drops to mostly 2-lanes NW of Walnut Ridge up to Willow Springs and the junction with US-60. If that was upgraded to 4-lane divided then there would at least be a divided highway going from Springfield, MO down to Jacksonville, FL. From Springfield highway links can be improved to Kansas City and/or Wichita.
US-63 drops to mostly 2-lanes NW of Walnut Ridge up to Willow Springs and the junction with US-60. If that was upgraded to 4-lane divided then there would at least be a divided highway going from Springfield, MO down to Jacksonville, FL. From Springfield highway links can be improved to Kansas City and/or Wichita.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 30, 2022, 09:36:52 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 30, 2022, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 30, 2022, 04:03:57 PM
Humorous observation: Someone messed up US 412 in the database for Google Maps. It's currently showing a BUS for Business Route above the shield the entire length of US 412. :-/
Submitted a request to correct this in Google Maps for the entire route. It's only at certain zoom levels that this seems to be incorrect.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on January 31, 2022, 12:19:29 AM
Post by: edwaleni on January 31, 2022, 12:19:29 AM
Coming from the east, we never use US-412 past Imboden. Always go up to West Plains and take US-60 to Springfield. If headed to NWA, its I-40 to I-49.
Coming from the north its I-49, but coming from Springfield, sometimes we will take US-60 through Republic and Monett for the scenic route.
I have driven both US-62 and US-412 east of NWA. US-62 is really for tourism traffic for places like Eureka Springs, all the AirBnB and condos on North Beaver Lake, Pea Ridge, etc.
But if you want to make good time, use US-412 east of Springdale. The geometry is much more modern, has overtake lanes and shoulders. Something US-62 is missing east of Pea Ridge.
Once I had to go to Berryville and Green Forest, but I took US-412 from Springdale and AR-21 through Cabanal. Much faster, much safer.
But US-412 east of Alpena where US-65 meets up south of Branson @ Harrison, on bad days its a spider web of RV's, towed fifth wheels, boat trailers, semi-trucks, all headed to Bull Shoals and Mountain Home.
I simply avoid it.
Coming from the north its I-49, but coming from Springfield, sometimes we will take US-60 through Republic and Monett for the scenic route.
I have driven both US-62 and US-412 east of NWA. US-62 is really for tourism traffic for places like Eureka Springs, all the AirBnB and condos on North Beaver Lake, Pea Ridge, etc.
But if you want to make good time, use US-412 east of Springdale. The geometry is much more modern, has overtake lanes and shoulders. Something US-62 is missing east of Pea Ridge.
Once I had to go to Berryville and Green Forest, but I took US-412 from Springdale and AR-21 through Cabanal. Much faster, much safer.
But US-412 east of Alpena where US-65 meets up south of Branson @ Harrison, on bad days its a spider web of RV's, towed fifth wheels, boat trailers, semi-trucks, all headed to Bull Shoals and Mountain Home.
I simply avoid it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 31, 2022, 10:11:36 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on January 31, 2022, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: MikieTimTSubmitted a request to correct this in Google Maps for the entire route. It's only at certain zoom levels that this seems to be incorrect.
The error has been present at pretty much any level in Google Earth where US-412 shields are actually visible. Zoomed out far they're replaced by other shields that overlap US-412 on the same route.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 05:57:03 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 05:57:03 PM
Arkansas Democrat Gazelle Article(paywall): https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2022/jan/30/portion-of-us-412-in-arkansas-oklahoma-designated/
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 31, 2022, 10:11:07 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 31, 2022, 10:11:07 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 05:57:03 PM
Arkansas Democrat Gazelle Article(paywall): https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2022/jan/30/portion-of-us-412-in-arkansas-oklahoma-designated/
Methinks the route indicated through Siloam Springs is not actually going to be making the interstate designation as indicated.
(https://wehco.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/imports/adg/photos/200522234_HIGHWAY-412-INTERSTATE-DESIGNATION.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 10:16:41 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 10:16:41 PM
Why?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 31, 2022, 11:18:10 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 31, 2022, 11:18:10 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 10:16:41 PM
Why?
It's going to require a bypass. The lines shown are running right through the middle of Siloam Springs, which is where US-412 is currently 6-laned through with hundreds of driveways directly accessing the road, precluding any way to convert to limited access where it is currently. As has been stated numerous times upthread, Siloam Springs will require a bypass, likely to the north if they can actually get the ROW that's most conducive topographically before it all fills up with subdivisions. This image isn't accurate on the Arkansas side in Siloam Springs, nor with the part that's shown east of I-49. Since its source is an Arkansas media outlet, you'd think they'd get the small part of this Interstate that's actually in Arkansas right, but alas...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Anthony_JK on February 01, 2022, 12:56:05 AM
Post by: Anthony_JK on February 01, 2022, 12:56:05 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on January 31, 2022, 11:18:10 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 10:16:41 PM
Why?
It's going to require a bypass. The lines shown are running right through the middle of Siloam Springs, which is where US-412 is currently 6-laned through with hundreds of driveways directly accessing the road, precluding any way to convert to limited access where it is currently. As has been stated numerous times upthread, Siloam Springs will require a bypass, likely to the north if they can actually get the ROW that's most conducive topographically before it all fills up with subdivisions. This image isn't accurate on the Arkansas side in Siloam Springs, nor with the part that's shown east of I-49. Since its source is an Arkansas media outlet, you'd think they'd get the small part of this Interstate that's actually in Arkansas right, but alas...
I'm guessing that line shown is simply a general description of the corridor, and not a final alignment; and that a Siloam Springs bypass is on the table.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on February 01, 2022, 12:56:46 AM
Post by: edwaleni on February 01, 2022, 12:56:46 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on January 31, 2022, 11:18:10 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 10:16:41 PM
Why?
It's going to require a bypass. The lines shown are running right through the middle of Siloam Springs, which is where US-412 is currently 6-laned through with hundreds of driveways directly accessing the road, precluding any way to convert to limited access where it is currently. As has been stated numerous times upthread, Siloam Springs will require a bypass, likely to the north if they can actually get the ROW that's most conducive topographically before it all fills up with subdivisions. This image isn't accurate on the Arkansas side in Siloam Springs, nor with the part that's shown east of I-49. Since its source is an Arkansas media outlet, you'd think they'd get the small part of this Interstate that's actually in Arkansas right, but alas...
What if they elevate it like they do in Texas? Use frontage roads below for the local access?
As it stands now, their only saving grace for a bypass is to use a power line easement. But they will have to consume private property even with that approach.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on February 01, 2022, 12:58:02 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on February 01, 2022, 12:58:02 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on February 01, 2022, 12:56:46 AMTexas would likely bypass the town.Quote from: MikieTimT on January 31, 2022, 11:18:10 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 10:16:41 PM
Why?
It's going to require a bypass. The lines shown are running right through the middle of Siloam Springs, which is where US-412 is currently 6-laned through with hundreds of driveways directly accessing the road, precluding any way to convert to limited access where it is currently. As has been stated numerous times upthread, Siloam Springs will require a bypass, likely to the north if they can actually get the ROW that's most conducive topographically before it all fills up with subdivisions. This image isn't accurate on the Arkansas side in Siloam Springs, nor with the part that's shown east of I-49. Since its source is an Arkansas media outlet, you'd think they'd get the small part of this Interstate that's actually in Arkansas right, but alas...
What if they elevate it like they do in Texas? Use frontage roads below for the local access?
As it stands now, their only saving grace for a bypass is to use a power line easement. But they will have to consume private property even with that approach.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on February 01, 2022, 10:43:13 AM
Post by: skluth on February 01, 2022, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on February 01, 2022, 12:56:05 AMI agree. I wouldn't put an official stamp of approval on an unofficial newspaper graphic.Quote from: MikieTimT on January 31, 2022, 11:18:10 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2022, 10:16:41 PM
Why?
It's going to require a bypass. The lines shown are running right through the middle of Siloam Springs, which is where US-412 is currently 6-laned through with hundreds of driveways directly accessing the road, precluding any way to convert to limited access where it is currently. As has been stated numerous times upthread, Siloam Springs will require a bypass, likely to the north if they can actually get the ROW that's most conducive topographically before it all fills up with subdivisions. This image isn't accurate on the Arkansas side in Siloam Springs, nor with the part that's shown east of I-49. Since its source is an Arkansas media outlet, you'd think they'd get the small part of this Interstate that's actually in Arkansas right, but alas...
I'm guessing that line shown is simply a general description of the corridor, and not a final alignment; and that a Siloam Springs bypass is on the table.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: yakra on February 02, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
Post by: yakra on February 02, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
A southern 4-lane bypass of Light in western Greene County AR opened in November 2020.
Google shows the old route as 412 Business (though this doesn't necessarily mean much (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29375.msg2702744#msg2702744)), with no changes to AR228.
OSM, OTOH shows old 412 as a plain county road with no known name or number, with 228 truncated to the bypass.
All of this is too new to have made it into the Greene county map or ARDOT's Road Inventory shapefiles.
Has anyone checked this out in the field?
Google shows the old route as 412 Business (though this doesn't necessarily mean much (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29375.msg2702744#msg2702744)), with no changes to AR228.
OSM, OTOH shows old 412 as a plain county road with no known name or number, with 228 truncated to the bypass.
All of this is too new to have made it into the Greene county map or ARDOT's Road Inventory shapefiles.
Has anyone checked this out in the field?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on February 02, 2022, 03:13:27 PM
Post by: edwaleni on February 02, 2022, 03:13:27 PM
Here is the locale of the power line easement south of Siloam Springs. I am not saying the bypass would follow it religiously, but it does provide a clear path through several residential developments south of town.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51859097710_9321647193_o.png)
If it is used, I would assume a gradual curve to reach it by purchasing private property.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51859097710_9321647193_o.png)
If it is used, I would assume a gradual curve to reach it by purchasing private property.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: dvferyance on February 04, 2022, 08:59:48 PM
Post by: dvferyance on February 04, 2022, 08:59:48 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 25, 2021, 08:20:29 AMI would like to see I-45 extended into Oklahoma.
^^^ lol I'm surprised(pleasantly I'll add) this is even happening in Oklahoma to be honest. Oklahoma could use several new interstates, IMO.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 04, 2022, 09:25:10 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 04, 2022, 09:25:10 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on February 04, 2022, 08:59:48 PMThis seems like an obvious one too. Coburn should have went big.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 25, 2021, 08:20:29 AMI would like to see I-45 extended into Oklahoma.
^^^ lol I'm surprised(pleasantly I'll add) this is even happening in Oklahoma to be honest. Oklahoma could use several new interstates, IMO.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on February 05, 2022, 12:48:03 PM
Post by: skluth on February 05, 2022, 12:48:03 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on February 02, 2022, 03:13:27 PM
Here is the locale of the power line easement south of Siloam Springs. I am not saying the bypass would follow it religiously, but it does provide a clear path through several residential developments south of town.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51859097710_9321647193_o.png)
If it is used, I would assume a gradual curve to reach it by purchasing private property.
That's a good concept to bypass Siloam Springs. There's enough undeveloped land west of US 59 and east of AR 16 that finding a ROW in either direction from that corridor would be relatively simple.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: yakra on February 07, 2022, 12:55:57 PM
Post by: yakra on February 07, 2022, 12:55:57 PM
Quote from: yakra on February 02, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
A southern 4-lane bypass of Light in western Greene County AR opened in November 2020.
Google shows the old route as 412 Business (though this doesn't necessarily mean much (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29375.msg2702744#msg2702744)), with no changes to AR228.
OSM, OTOH shows old 412 as a plain county road with no known name or number, with 228 truncated to the bypass.
All of this is too new to have made it into the Greene county map or ARDOT's Road Inventory shapefiles.
Has anyone checked this out in the field?
Quote from: https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/06-06-2018-AdmCir2018-09.pdf
- The bypassed and obliterated portions of Highway 412, Section 8 will be removed from the State Highway System.
- The section of Highway 228, Section 5 between existing Highway 412 and the newly constructed roadway to become Highway 412 will be removed from the State Highway System.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on February 07, 2022, 04:17:03 PM
Post by: edwaleni on February 07, 2022, 04:17:03 PM
https://www.jonesborosun.com/times_dispatch/news/light-bypass-opens-as-412-construction-continues/article_be71aeb4-a1d0-58a4-ad88-fe6dcec87155.html (https://www.jonesborosun.com/times_dispatch/news/light-bypass-opens-as-412-construction-continues/article_be71aeb4-a1d0-58a4-ad88-fe6dcec87155.html)
December 2, 2020.
Construction on the expansion of Highway 412 between Walnut Ridge and Highway 141 in Greene County continues, but those who drive the route noticed a major change last week when the Arkansas Department of Transportation opened the bypass around Light.
"We opened the Light bypass last Monday," Brad Smithee, district engineer with ARDOT, said. "This will really be the only section that will move to the five lane layout until we begin final paving."
December 2, 2020.
Construction on the expansion of Highway 412 between Walnut Ridge and Highway 141 in Greene County continues, but those who drive the route noticed a major change last week when the Arkansas Department of Transportation opened the bypass around Light.
"We opened the Light bypass last Monday," Brad Smithee, district engineer with ARDOT, said. "This will really be the only section that will move to the five lane layout until we begin final paving."
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bwana39 on February 07, 2022, 10:18:57 PM
Post by: bwana39 on February 07, 2022, 10:18:57 PM
https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2022/feb/07/arkansas-oklahoma-to-partner-on-us-412-interstate/?fbclid=IwAR3FM0W4Vcgv0cbc0vD2b2DojTE85gpjUkwjWa5xF7n1vk8c90VTEE7fJuE
Forget the US-412 Interstate upgrade. The real meat in this piece is ARDOT is Opening a regional office in NWA.
It tells you they are serious about improving traffic access in NWA which may pass metro Little Rock in population in just a decade or two.
Forget the US-412 Interstate upgrade. The real meat in this piece is ARDOT is Opening a regional office in NWA.
It tells you they are serious about improving traffic access in NWA which may pass metro Little Rock in population in just a decade or two.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on February 08, 2022, 10:55:29 AM
Post by: skluth on February 08, 2022, 10:55:29 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on February 07, 2022, 10:18:57 PMI thought the most interesting part was "the quarter-cent sales tax dedicated to highways." Right now there's this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29161.0) happening about alternatives to the gas tax for highway funding. I think we'll see more of this as EV numbers increase.
https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2022/feb/07/arkansas-oklahoma-to-partner-on-us-412-interstate/?fbclid=IwAR3FM0W4Vcgv0cbc0vD2b2DojTE85gpjUkwjWa5xF7n1vk8c90VTEE7fJuE
Forget the US-412 Interstate upgrade. The real meat in this piece is ARDOT is Opening a regional office in NWA.
It tells you they are serious about improving traffic access in NWA which may pass metro Little Rock in population in just a decade or two.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 08, 2022, 10:51:17 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 08, 2022, 10:51:17 PM
If electric vehicle purchases and use increase a great deal it could lead to the traditional gasoline tax being replaced (or supplemented) by a hell of a lot of RFID toll tag readers on everything from limited access highways down to ordinary 2 lane highways and even city streets.
I still think EVs are going to be a niche product for a long time. It's not practical to drive one of those things on a long road trip. I might be able to drive from Lawton to OKC, around the city a bit and back to Lawton on a single charge. But driving from Lawton to DFW is out. Gotta re-charge while down there and re-charging takes a lot more time than filling a gasoline tank. It would be a real pain in the ass for me to drive from Oklahoma to see relatives in Colorado. It's roughly 600 miles each way, with the halfway point being out in some fairly remote areas. Aside from the range limits EVs are still pretty expensive, especially considering the features in the vehicle you get for the money.
I still think EVs are going to be a niche product for a long time. It's not practical to drive one of those things on a long road trip. I might be able to drive from Lawton to OKC, around the city a bit and back to Lawton on a single charge. But driving from Lawton to DFW is out. Gotta re-charge while down there and re-charging takes a lot more time than filling a gasoline tank. It would be a real pain in the ass for me to drive from Oklahoma to see relatives in Colorado. It's roughly 600 miles each way, with the halfway point being out in some fairly remote areas. Aside from the range limits EVs are still pretty expensive, especially considering the features in the vehicle you get for the money.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: triplemultiplex on February 09, 2022, 10:38:47 AM
Post by: triplemultiplex on February 09, 2022, 10:38:47 AM
When I first read "Light bypass", I thought it had something to do with gravitational lensing. ;)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on February 09, 2022, 01:53:49 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on February 09, 2022, 01:53:49 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 31, 2022, 10:11:36 AMQuote from: MikieTimTSubmitted a request to correct this in Google Maps for the entire route. It's only at certain zoom levels that this seems to be incorrect.
The error has been present at pretty much any level in Google Earth where US-412 shields are actually visible. Zoomed out far they're replaced by other shields that overlap US-412 on the same route.
Got an email this morning that Google accepted my change request for US-412B to US-412. Looks like it's showing correctly again now.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: yakra on February 09, 2022, 02:16:05 PM
Post by: yakra on February 09, 2022, 02:16:05 PM
...and now we have vanilla US412 right thru the center of Light, with no designation on the bypass. :ded:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on February 24, 2022, 03:59:50 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on February 24, 2022, 03:59:50 PM
Push to make NWA a center of transportation and logistics innovation, making this upgrade all the more worthwhile.
Arkansas launches plan to become the Silicon Valley of transportation (https://www.axios.com/local/nw-arkansas/2022/02/23/arkansas-plan-silicon-valley-of-transportation)
Arkansas launches plan to become the Silicon Valley of transportation (https://www.axios.com/local/nw-arkansas/2022/02/23/arkansas-plan-silicon-valley-of-transportation)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 24, 2022, 04:09:11 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 24, 2022, 04:09:11 PM
Flying cars? That'll be the day.
:crazy:
Motorists are dangerous enough as it is being stuck on the ground driving on roads. I'm skeptical we'll be seeing mass production flying car factories getting built any time soon.
:crazy:
Motorists are dangerous enough as it is being stuck on the ground driving on roads. I'm skeptical we'll be seeing mass production flying car factories getting built any time soon.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on February 24, 2022, 05:27:38 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on February 24, 2022, 05:27:38 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 24, 2022, 04:09:11 PM
Flying cars? That'll be the day.
:crazy:
Motorists are dangerous enough as it is being stuck on the ground driving on roads. I'm skeptical we'll be seeing mass production flying car factories getting built any time soon.
Drones can already be somewhat autonomous in flying as it is, and flying cars likely will just be scaled up drones. I can see it happening just as soon as, if not sooner than, autonomous driving cars.
They've actually got both autonomous delivery vehicles and autonomous grocery delivery drones operating in NWA already on a small scale.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 05:29:33 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 05:29:33 PM
I had read there are rumors Sen. Inhofe is retiring very soon. In the past the legislature is specifically issued bonds for ODOT to use. I wonder if Inhofe will do anything to expedite this before his retirement. . .
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on February 24, 2022, 06:47:31 PM
Post by: rte66man on February 24, 2022, 06:47:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 05:29:33 PM
I had read there are rumors Sen. Inhofe is retiring very soon. In the past the legislature is specifically issued bonds for ODOT to use. I wonder if Inhofe will do anything to expedite this before his retirement. . .
Not a rumor. He announced he will finish out this session of Congress and retire in December.
https://www.news9.com/story/6217ebdf3ab0b60729551579/reports:-us-sen-jim-inhofe-to-resign-seat-next-week
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 24, 2022, 07:05:26 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 24, 2022, 07:05:26 PM
Quote from: MikieTimTDrones can already be somewhat autonomous in flying as it is, and flying cars likely will just be scaled up drones. I can see it happening just as soon as, if not sooner than, autonomous driving cars.
A flying car big enough to hold one or more people along with some cargo (or stuff bought while shopping) is far more complicated a matter than a drone only big enough to deliver a package from Amazon.
Again, I repeat the extremely important factor of safety. "Flying cars" aren't going to be any kind of automatic plug-and-play vehicle. Training and licensing for those vehicles will likely be very different from that of standard motor vehicle licenses. Anyone using those vehicles may need something more akin to a pilot's license. Insurance will be far different and likely more costly. Maintenance and safety inspection standards will have to be far higher than that of traditional motor vehicles.
Even with all the rules and regulations one would expect to be in place human nature remains a wild card. Regardless if a flying car is automated the "pilot" will have to constantly pay attention in case he needs to manually take control. Semi-autonomous electric vehicles make up a very small percentage of vehicles currently on the road. Yet there are lots of stories of people crashing their Teslas while doing stupid things behind the wheel.
Quote from: Plutonic PandaI had read there are rumors Sen. Inhofe is retiring very soon. In the past the legislature is specifically issued bonds for ODOT to use. I wonder if Inhofe will do anything to expedite this before his retirement. . .
It looks like any efforts to upgrade US-412 into a named Interstate highway between I-35 and I-49 are not related at all to the OTA's Access Oklahoma 15-year plan. Inhofe has some clout with making deals related to highway projects. It's possible he may focus on the US-412 project. However, he is getting pretty old and his wife has had health issues, pulling him away from some of his duties.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 08:55:21 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 08:55:21 PM
What I'm thinking is Inhofe seems to be championing this road upgrade and maybe he'd want to get it done before he leaves. Sort of like a last farewell.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on March 05, 2022, 10:10:38 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 05, 2022, 10:10:38 PM
I was just on the Cimarron a couple of days ago. There's still some of the classic raised median around Exit 22. This will have to be fixed before it can become an Interstate.
(https://i.imgur.com/Q3Sn6fX.jpg)
Most of the rest of it has been paved over and a cable barrier installed in the median. I don't know if this setup meets standards or not.
(https://i.imgur.com/XDJF2st.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q3Sn6fX.jpg)
Most of the rest of it has been paved over and a cable barrier installed in the median. I don't know if this setup meets standards or not.
(https://i.imgur.com/XDJF2st.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 06, 2022, 01:32:58 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 06, 2022, 01:32:58 AM
I think I made the point about the narrow grassy median needing attention earlier in the thread. But the issue is worth repeating. As for the cheap looking cable barrier (to replace the narrow grassy strip), it seemed to be "good enough" for I-44 South of Lawton down to the US-70 Randlett exit.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on March 06, 2022, 02:09:30 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 06, 2022, 02:09:30 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 06, 2022, 01:32:58 AM
I think I made the point about the narrow grassy median needing attention earlier in the thread. But the issue is worth repeating. As for the cheap looking cable barrier (to replace the narrow grassy strip), it seemed to be "good enough" for I-44 South of Lawton down to the US-70 Randlett exit.
There is a procedural difference between replacing a very substandard median with a substandard one on an already-designated Interstate, versus having a substandard median on a proposed newly-designated Interstate.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 06, 2022, 06:08:10 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 06, 2022, 06:08:10 PM
If I recall correctly, the main difference was cost. A concrete Jersey barrier was double the cost of a cable barrier. Then there is the added safety argument that cable barriers will slow or stop an out of control vehicle whereas a concrete Jersey barrier will just make a vehicle bounce off and still be out of control.
I'm not a fan of the cable barriers for replacing the grassy strip. Even if one can argue the cable barrier is safer it still looks cheap. When a vehicle crashes into one the barrier has to be repaired immediately. Over time and with enough vehicle contacts all that dollar savings over concrete barriers could be depleted.
I'm not a fan of the cable barriers for replacing the grassy strip. Even if one can argue the cable barrier is safer it still looks cheap. When a vehicle crashes into one the barrier has to be repaired immediately. Over time and with enough vehicle contacts all that dollar savings over concrete barriers could be depleted.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on March 06, 2022, 08:19:52 PM
Post by: rte66man on March 06, 2022, 08:19:52 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 05, 2022, 10:10:38 PM
I was just on the Cimarron a couple of days ago. There's still some of the classic raised median around Exit 22. This will have to be fixed before it can become an Interstate.
(https://i.imgur.com/Q3Sn6fX.jpg)
Most of the rest of it has been paved over and a cable barrier installed in the median. I don't know if this setup meets standards or not.
(https://i.imgur.com/XDJF2st.jpg)
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 05, 2022, 10:10:38 PM
I was just on the Cimarron a couple of days ago. There's still some of the classic raised median around Exit 22. This will have to be fixed before it can become an Interstate.
(https://i.imgur.com/Q3Sn6fX.jpg)
Most of the rest of it has been paved over and a cable barrier installed in the median. I don't know if this setup meets standards or not.
(https://i.imgur.com/XDJF2st.jpg)
According to the 5 Year CIP, the remaining raised medians will be replaced as follows:
2022 - Cimarron Spur (to Stillwater)
I believe the remaining mainline medians are already budgeted.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on March 07, 2022, 09:50:14 AM
Post by: edwaleni on March 07, 2022, 09:50:14 AM
I covered it elsewhere but after looking at some research on cable barriers by TxDOT and some others, you would be surprised how well these work.
Unlike Jersey barriers where the kinetic energy simply forces the mass back into the highway, these cable barriers distribute that energy farther down the cables and keep the crashing vehicle in place like a spider web.
The one issue I can find in reviewing the data is that the cables in many cases obstructs the driver side door and first responders have to cut it. This is dangerous as the cable is essentially distributing that energy where cutting it can cause a whiplash. (sort of like an arrestor cable on an aircraft carrier failing)
Unlike Jersey barriers where the kinetic energy simply forces the mass back into the highway, these cable barriers distribute that energy farther down the cables and keep the crashing vehicle in place like a spider web.
The one issue I can find in reviewing the data is that the cables in many cases obstructs the driver side door and first responders have to cut it. This is dangerous as the cable is essentially distributing that energy where cutting it can cause a whiplash. (sort of like an arrestor cable on an aircraft carrier failing)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 09:56:19 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 09:56:19 AM
I'd rather hit a Jersey barrier than one of these. Granted they're also better than running into oncoming traffic.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2022, 03:01:56 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2022, 03:01:56 PM
Both are better than a furrow of grass that begins immediately at the left fog line.
Those old grass medians look like the kind of thing you'd see police cars flipping off of in Smokey and the Bandit.
Those old grass medians look like the kind of thing you'd see police cars flipping off of in Smokey and the Bandit.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on March 07, 2022, 03:45:59 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 07, 2022, 03:45:59 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on March 07, 2022, 09:50:14 AM
I covered it elsewhere but after looking at some research on cable barriers by TxDOT and some others, you would be surprised how well these work.
Unlike Jersey barriers where the kinetic energy simply forces the mass back into the highway, these cable barriers distribute that energy farther down the cables and keep the crashing vehicle in place like a spider web.
The one issue I can find in reviewing the data is that the cables in many cases obstructs the driver side door and first responders have to cut it. This is dangerous as the cable is essentially distributing that energy where cutting it can cause a whiplash. (sort of like an arrestor cable on an aircraft carrier failing)
Oh, my concern here is not that cable barriers don't work. I've seen probably the same TxDOT video you have. My concern is that, because the cables deform from a straight line when catching a car, because the physical median width is so narrow here, the car might still end up partially in the oncoming lane.
That, and I don't think this particular setup exists outside of Oklahoma, so I have no idea if FHWA would approve a new Interstate designation on a road with a median like this. I know Bobby says there's a stretch of I-44 like this in southwest Oklahoma, but the I-44 designation would have already been approved for that stretch of highway (when standards are lower) and the cable barriers would have been installed afterward.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on March 07, 2022, 03:54:39 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 07, 2022, 03:54:39 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2022, 03:45:59 PM
I know Bobby says there's a stretch of I-44 like this in southwest Oklahoma, but the I-44 designation would have already been approved for that stretch of highway (when standards are lower) and the cable barriers would have been installed afterward.
Yeah, quite a bit of I-44 in southwestern Oklahoma was retrofitted with a cable barrier within the last decade.
But, you know, that's the same highway that has a 75mph speed limit with a hard curb on the inside (https://goo.gl/maps/nfaEk1bkGMDDsD1L7), so how much should we really expect?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on March 07, 2022, 05:09:29 PM
Post by: edwaleni on March 07, 2022, 05:09:29 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2022, 03:01:56 PM
Both are better than a furrow of grass that begins immediately at the left fog line.
Those old grass medians look like the kind of thing you'd see police cars flipping off of in Smokey and the Bandit.
Or:
TJ Hooker
Hunter
A-Team
Hardcastle & McCormick
Riptide
and any show written by Stephen J. Cannell
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on March 07, 2022, 05:24:43 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 07, 2022, 05:24:43 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 07, 2022, 03:54:39 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2022, 03:45:59 PM
I know Bobby says there's a stretch of I-44 like this in southwest Oklahoma, but the I-44 designation would have already been approved for that stretch of highway (when standards are lower) and the cable barriers would have been installed afterward.
Yeah, quite a bit of I-44 in southwestern Oklahoma was retrofitted with a cable barrier within the last decade.
But, you know, that's the same highway that has a 75mph speed limit with a hard curb on the inside (https://goo.gl/maps/nfaEk1bkGMDDsD1L7), so how much should we really expect?
Heh. Based on the location of that curb, it looks like their first attempt at fixing the raised grass median was to swap it with a curb and a raised paved median. OTA is something else.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on March 07, 2022, 06:15:20 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 07, 2022, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2022, 03:01:56 PM
Both are better than a furrow of grass that begins immediately at the left fog line.
Those old grass medians look like the kind of thing you'd see police cars flipping off of in Smokey and the Bandit.
Even better is when the grass overgrows the yellow line, or they've recently mown the grass and the clippings obscure it. Especially when you're passing a trucker pulling double trailers at 80 mph.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 07, 2022, 11:09:45 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 07, 2022, 11:09:45 PM
I don't know what the hell the OTA was thinking about adding that hard curb to the median on I-44 coming into Chickasha. That is a real head-scratcher. It sure makes you pay attention, or just stay in the right lane.
The turnpikes that carry I-44 in Oklahoma all had the narrow grassy strip to the edge of the left lane until the late 1990's. Some terrible accidents, including a multiple fatality incident near Elgin forced the OTA to take action. Around 1996-97 they began adding the concrete Jersey barrier starting North of Lawton just past the Medicine Park exit and going all the way up to the Missouri border. IIRC the process took a year or two to complete.
I-44 South of Lawton remained as is with the grassy median strip. OTA didn't start fixing that issue until around 2014. That's the stretch with that cheap looking cable barrier. To me the solid 5-lane wide roadway with such a miniscule looking barrier makes the turnpike roadway seem a little like a surface street. The thump-thump-thump of those concrete joints in the road adds to that street feel.
One thing I don't like about the cable barriers is they offer no room for error. If you drift into one, even just the smallest bit your vehicle is probably going to get tangled into it big time. A concrete Jersey barrier with that slanted wall design will give a motorist a small chance of getting away without too much of a scrape. It's possible for the wheels to touch it slightly, jolting the driver back into the lane. Plenty of vehicles do make hard contact with the barrier though.
A couple or so years ago I did see one guy North of the Elgin exit drift into the Jersey barrier, launching his two left wheels up in the air. The car was running diagonally for a brief moment (just like a movie stunt) before banging down and sending out some sparks. I think the driver was drunker than Cooter Brown. It didn't look like the vehicle body touched the barrier at all. The suspension probably suffered some serious damage from the hit though.
Quote from: kphogerYeah, quite a bit of I-44 in southwestern Oklahoma was retrofitted with a cable barrier within the last decade.
The turnpikes that carry I-44 in Oklahoma all had the narrow grassy strip to the edge of the left lane until the late 1990's. Some terrible accidents, including a multiple fatality incident near Elgin forced the OTA to take action. Around 1996-97 they began adding the concrete Jersey barrier starting North of Lawton just past the Medicine Park exit and going all the way up to the Missouri border. IIRC the process took a year or two to complete.
I-44 South of Lawton remained as is with the grassy median strip. OTA didn't start fixing that issue until around 2014. That's the stretch with that cheap looking cable barrier. To me the solid 5-lane wide roadway with such a miniscule looking barrier makes the turnpike roadway seem a little like a surface street. The thump-thump-thump of those concrete joints in the road adds to that street feel.
Quote from: Scott5114Oh, my concern here is not that cable barriers don't work. I've seen probably the same TxDOT video you have. My concern is that, because the cables deform from a straight line when catching a car, because the physical median width is so narrow here, the car might still end up partially in the oncoming lane.
One thing I don't like about the cable barriers is they offer no room for error. If you drift into one, even just the smallest bit your vehicle is probably going to get tangled into it big time. A concrete Jersey barrier with that slanted wall design will give a motorist a small chance of getting away without too much of a scrape. It's possible for the wheels to touch it slightly, jolting the driver back into the lane. Plenty of vehicles do make hard contact with the barrier though.
A couple or so years ago I did see one guy North of the Elgin exit drift into the Jersey barrier, launching his two left wheels up in the air. The car was running diagonally for a brief moment (just like a movie stunt) before banging down and sending out some sparks. I think the driver was drunker than Cooter Brown. It didn't look like the vehicle body touched the barrier at all. The suspension probably suffered some serious damage from the hit though.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 11:57:45 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 11:57:45 PM
^^^ that is crazy because about 7 years ago before I moved to LA I was coming back from Medicine Park camping trip and something very similar happened to a truck in front of me. The guys truck was fucked but still running. He was rollin balls so I offered to give him a ride so he wouldn't get a DUI and I drove him to Chickasha. Good times.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 12:20:55 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 12:20:55 AM
I called 911 on the guy I watched hit the barrier. My girlfriend and I were driving home after a road trip to OKC; we watched a movie while there and it was late when we were getting close to home. We had been watching this drunk motorist slowly weaving lane to lane for some time; I think even before we passed through Chickasha. All I could do was hang back at a distance. I was afraid to attempt passing him. I wasn't all that surprised the guy finally had some kind of accident. Still, it was astonishing and morbidly funny to see a movie style car stunt, a car driving diagonally on its right wheels, playing out in real life.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 01:09:39 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 01:09:39 AM
Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 02:23:14 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 02:23:14 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 01:09:39 AM
Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.
If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 03:47:28 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 03:47:28 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 02:23:14 AMIf you can hold the liquor OKC isn't to far up the road 😂Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 01:09:39 AM
Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.
If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 09:48:33 AM
Post by: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 09:48:33 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 02:23:14 AMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 01:09:39 AM
Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.
If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.
From my experience last year, I'm assuming that the Braum's in Chickasha is the redneck capital of America.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 09:49:57 AM
Post by: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 09:49:57 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 07, 2022, 11:09:45 PM
To me the solid 5-lane wide roadway with such a miniscule looking barrier makes the turnpike roadway seem a little like a surface street.
When I first saw the cable barrier going in along I-44, I thought I'd feel that way too. But, now that it's been completed, I don't. To me, it still feels very much like a normal freeway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on March 08, 2022, 09:58:42 AM
Post by: edwaleni on March 08, 2022, 09:58:42 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 09:48:33 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 02:23:14 AMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 01:09:39 AM
Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.
If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.
From my experience last year, I'm assuming that the Braum's in Chickasha is the redneck capital of America.
Where do the local farmers go for breakfast to talk about their problems in Chickasha?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 10:15:39 AM
Post by: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 10:15:39 AM
Farmers and rednecks are not necessarily the same group of people, in my experience.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rothman on March 08, 2022, 01:01:45 PM
Post by: Rothman on March 08, 2022, 01:01:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 10:15:39 AM^This.
Farmers and rednecks are not necessarily the same group of people, in my experience.
Also, every mention of Braum's in this thread makes me hungry.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 01:21:20 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Scott5114If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.
I'm pretty sure that drunk motorist was heading back to the Lawton area after getting shit-faced in Oklahoma City. He left the Interstate at the Medicine Park exit.
Quote from: kphogerFarmers and rednecks are not necessarily the same group of people, in my experience.
A bunch of those guys are all hat, no cattle.
Quote from: kphogerWhen I first saw the cable barrier going in along I-44, I thought I'd feel that way too. But, now that it's been completed, I don't. To me, it still feels very much like a normal freeway.
It still looks cheap to me. OTA has done as little as they can with their segment of I-44 between Lawton and the Red River. South of the US-70 Exit for Randlett ODOT rebuilt a good stretch of I-44 passing in front of the two casinos. That's actually some decent road. I also like how I-44 looks between OKC and Tulsa where they've finished the widening to 3x3 configuration. I-44 South of Lawton looks very low rent compared to that. And we still have that gawd-awful toll plaza at Walters; the OK-5 bridge going over it looks like it's about to fall apart. Even with the turnpikes set to go to all cash-less tolling I expect OTA to leave that shitty toll plaza as is, forcing everyone to still slow down to 30mph even with no human beings present there anymore.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 01:48:05 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 01:48:05 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 01:21:20 PM
It still looks cheap to me.
This (https://goo.gl/maps/MxVvPHrB4r4x4M9aA) doesn't look any worse than this (https://goo.gl/maps/yrmspaMMQjsNWUzD8) to me.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 01:56:56 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 01:56:56 PM
That pavement on I-8 West of Yuma looks like it's in better shape than I-44 South of Lawton. While there is no cable barrier present the median on I-8 looks wider. Still, that part of I-8 is certainly way down on the list of priorities for Caltrans.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 04:47:21 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 04:47:21 PM
I wouldn't call the Oklahoma turnpikes cheap, but all of them built before the 1990s do feel hilariously outdated, even in comparison to the Kansas Turnpike, which was built around the same time but has aged more gracefully. Many of the county roads passing over the Oklahoma turnpikes have one-lane bridges, which is scary as shit, especially when you don't know the area very well.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: plain on March 08, 2022, 05:16:45 PM
Post by: plain on March 08, 2022, 05:16:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 04:47:21 PM
Many of the county roads passing over the Oklahoma turnpikes have one-lane bridges, which is scary as shit, especially when you don't know the area very well.
No shit!! And I thought the old overpasses on the Pennsylvania Turnpike was narrow!
PA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/S47End5a8yHCqDgt6
OK
https://maps.app.goo.gl/X5GixyNvZ9Vujjyb9
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 05:45:29 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 05:45:29 PM
This one (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2765552,-97.6054327,3a,75y,100.44h,85.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNwxhGdqn4NIsGydCxJa4AA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is the one I've had to deal with the most. Right in the middle of town, and good luck seeing if there's oncoming traffic.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: SoonerCowboy on March 08, 2022, 06:31:15 PM
Post by: SoonerCowboy on March 08, 2022, 06:31:15 PM
Quote from: plain on March 08, 2022, 05:16:45 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 04:47:21 PM
Many of the county roads passing over the Oklahoma turnpikes have one-lane bridges, which is scary as shit, especially when you don't know the area very well.
No shit!! And I thought the old overpasses on the Pennsylvania Turnpike was narrow!
PA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/S47End5a8yHCqDgt6
OK
https://maps.app.goo.gl/X5GixyNvZ9Vujjyb9
Thanks for the comparison, that Oklahoma bridge is some sketchy shit. I think I would drive straight down the middle and hope no one is coming from the other way. :bigass:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: SoonerCowboy on March 08, 2022, 06:34:57 PM
Post by: SoonerCowboy on March 08, 2022, 06:34:57 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 02:23:14 AMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 01:09:39 AM
Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.
If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.
OMG Scott, that's the best laugh I've had all day. :clap:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on March 08, 2022, 06:50:44 PM
Post by: Road Hog on March 08, 2022, 06:50:44 PM
If you think those overpasses are narrow now, imagine what it was like driving those 1960s and early 1970s land yachts back in the day.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on March 08, 2022, 06:53:30 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on March 08, 2022, 06:53:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 05:45:29 PM
This one (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2765552,-97.6054327,3a,75y,100.44h,85.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNwxhGdqn4NIsGydCxJa4AA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is the one I've had to deal with the most. Right in the middle of town, and good luck seeing if there's oncoming traffic.
And good luck being held legally accountable for whatever the unreadable signs on either end of that bridge allegedly warned against.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 07:02:04 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 07:02:04 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on March 08, 2022, 06:53:30 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 08, 2022, 05:45:29 PM
This one (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2765552,-97.6054327,3a,75y,100.44h,85.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNwxhGdqn4NIsGydCxJa4AA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is the one I've had to deal with the most. Right in the middle of town, and good luck seeing if there's oncoming traffic.
And good luck being held legally accountable for whatever the unreadable signs on either end of that bridge allegedly warned against.
They're warnings about fines for throwing things off the bridge, so I would imagine that the poor condition of the signage wouldn't be much of a defense. I've only ever seen those signs on OTA bridges; ODOT bridges don't have them.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 07:06:47 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 07:06:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2619194,-97.6377882,3a,75y,257.52h,68.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2r1sA3VoRQvFfOSKCrGLkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2619194,-97.6377882,3a,75y,257.52h,68.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2r1sA3VoRQvFfOSKCrGLkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
This particular bridge got broadsided by the May 3, 1999 F5 tornado. The Google Street View image is looking WSW in the direction at the field from where the tornado approached. That monster tornado gouged most of the top soil off the field. The concrete Jersey barrier on I-44 had what looked like bite marks knocked out of it. OTA patched that, but the concrete patches were visible for years. I think OTA replaced that barrier when that part of the turnpike was resurfaced. For a long time that one lane bridge over I-44 was stained with red clay soil. It's kind of amazing the bridge withstood 300mph+ winds, only getting cosmetic damage.
This particular bridge got broadsided by the May 3, 1999 F5 tornado. The Google Street View image is looking WSW in the direction at the field from where the tornado approached. That monster tornado gouged most of the top soil off the field. The concrete Jersey barrier on I-44 had what looked like bite marks knocked out of it. OTA patched that, but the concrete patches were visible for years. I think OTA replaced that barrier when that part of the turnpike was resurfaced. For a long time that one lane bridge over I-44 was stained with red clay soil. It's kind of amazing the bridge withstood 300mph+ winds, only getting cosmetic damage.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on March 08, 2022, 07:44:13 PM
Post by: rte66man on March 08, 2022, 07:44:13 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 07:06:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2619194,-97.6377882,3a,75y,257.52h,68.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2r1sA3VoRQvFfOSKCrGLkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2619194,-97.6377882,3a,75y,257.52h,68.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2r1sA3VoRQvFfOSKCrGLkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
This particular bridge got broadsided by the May 3, 1999 F5 tornado. The Google Street View image is looking WSW in the direction at the field from where the tornado approached. That monster tornado gouged most of the top soil off the field. The concrete Jersey barrier on I-44 had what looked like bite marks knocked out of it. OTA patched that, but the concrete patches were visible for years. I think OTA replaced that barrier when that part of the turnpike was resurfaced. For a long time that one lane bridge over I-44 was stained with red clay soil. It's kind of amazing the bridge withstood 300mph+ winds, only getting cosmetic damage.
Yes, all of the Jersey barrier was replaced for the 5 mile stretch of new pavement south from "South" US62
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on March 15, 2022, 03:59:21 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on March 15, 2022, 03:59:21 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 08, 2022, 10:55:29 AMQuote from: bwana39 on February 07, 2022, 10:18:57 PMI thought the most interesting part was "the quarter-cent sales tax dedicated to highways." Right now there's this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29161.0) happening about alternatives to the gas tax for highway funding. I think we'll see more of this as EV numbers increase.
https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2022/feb/07/arkansas-oklahoma-to-partner-on-us-412-interstate/?fbclid=IwAR3FM0W4Vcgv0cbc0vD2b2DojTE85gpjUkwjWa5xF7n1vk8c90VTEE7fJuE
Forget the US-412 Interstate upgrade. The real meat in this piece is ARDOT is Opening a regional office in NWA.
It tells you they are serious about improving traffic access in NWA which may pass metro Little Rock in population in just a decade or two.
I think the EV transition will start accelerating due to world events and potential longer term disruptions to the fossil fuels we currently know and love. Arkansas landed an EV manufacturer a few weeks ago not far off US-412 down I-55 in NEA nearby to the massive new steel plants sprouting up along the Mississippi River. With the relatively cleanly sourced steel locally available and with plans to start mining lithium from the brines of south Arkansas, there seems to be a renaissance of manufacturing in the state as of late, with a fair amount of it coming to historically depressed areas.
Envirotech Vehicles Announces Osceola, Arkansas as Site of its State-of-the-Art Manufacturing Facility (https://evtvusa.com/news/envirotech-vehicles-announces-osceola-arkansas/)
We'll see if it all comes to fruition as not many EV companies have grown into sustainable entities yet.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 04:32:07 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 04:32:07 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on March 15, 2022, 03:59:21 PM
I think the EV transition will start accelerating due to world events and potential longer term disruptions to the fossil fuels we currently know and love.
Because the countries that mine materials used in batteries are never plagued by politics, war, or supply chain disruptions...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 04:35:21 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 04:35:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 04:32:07 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on March 15, 2022, 03:59:21 PM
I think the EV transition will start accelerating due to world events and potential longer term disruptions to the fossil fuels we currently know and love.
Because the countries that mine materials used in batteries are never plagued by politics, war, or supply chain disruptions...
Well, he did mention in his post that apparently they have found at least one of those materials in Arkansas. Now, Arkansas is definitely plagued by politics, but I don't know about war...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on March 16, 2022, 09:58:40 AM
Post by: abqtraveler on March 16, 2022, 09:58:40 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 04:32:07 PMOr the countries that provide those materials are sworn enemies of America "[cough] China!"Quote from: MikieTimT on March 15, 2022, 03:59:21 PM
I think the EV transition will start accelerating due to world events and potential longer term disruptions to the fossil fuels we currently know and love.
Because the countries that mine materials used in batteries are never plagued by politics, war, or supply chain disruptions...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 16, 2022, 12:03:24 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 16, 2022, 12:03:24 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 04:35:21 PMSame thing in SoCal on the salton sea although I've always dreamed of it becoming it's originally conceived idea of paradise.Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 04:32:07 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on March 15, 2022, 03:59:21 PM
I think the EV transition will start accelerating due to world events and potential longer term disruptions to the fossil fuels we currently know and love.
Because the countries that mine materials used in batteries are never plagued by politics, war, or supply chain disruptions...
Well, he did mention in his post that apparently they have found at least one of those materials in Arkansas. Now, Arkansas is definitely plagued by politics, but I don't know about war...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: skluth on March 16, 2022, 07:23:43 PM
Post by: skluth on March 16, 2022, 07:23:43 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 16, 2022, 12:03:24 PMThe Salton Sea will never be a paradise again. The Salton Sea's worst problem is the salts along the edges of the lake become a toxic dust from the agricultural pollutants used by Imperial Valley farms. The algae blooms are a secondary concern, but still an issue. However, below the lake is believed to be one of the largest lithium resources on the planet with an estimated one to six million metric tons of lithium (https://www.mining.com/new-project-to-investigate-if-californias-lithium-valley-is-the-worlds-largest-brine-source-of-lithium/) contained in the brine trapped in the sand below the lake bottom. The Salton Sea lies in a gap between the North American and Pacific Plates and the brine has been collecting in the gap for millennia.Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 04:35:21 PMSame thing in SoCal on the salton sea although I've always dreamed of it becoming it's originally conceived idea of paradise.Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 04:32:07 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on March 15, 2022, 03:59:21 PM
I think the EV transition will start accelerating due to world events and potential longer term disruptions to the fossil fuels we currently know and love.
Because the countries that mine materials used in batteries are never plagued by politics, war, or supply chain disruptions...
Well, he did mention in his post that apparently they have found at least one of those materials in Arkansas. Now, Arkansas is definitely plagued by politics, but I don't know about war...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on March 16, 2022, 07:44:07 PM
Post by: US 89 on March 16, 2022, 07:44:07 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 16, 2022, 07:23:43 PM
The Salton Sea lies in a gap between the North American and Pacific Plates and the brine has been collecting in the gap for millennia.
And for that reason, the Salton Sea should actually be higher - over 200 feet higher. Matter of fact, the entire Imperial Valley should be underwater. That geological feature is what forms the Gulf of California, and it extends all the way up to somewhere around Indio CA. The only reason the Gulf doesn't go that far north is because over a few million years, the Colorado River deposited so much sediment into the basin that enough of it accumulated to build a low, broad ridge above sea level dividing the basin in two: the Gulf of California basin to the south and the Salton Sink to the north. This was fascinating to learn for the first time as it's not really something you easily get from a typical road map, but look at a satellite view and the picture of a SW-flowing Colorado River into a NW/SE-oriented depression quickly becomes apparent.
The current Salton Sea is there because our own canals failed 100 years ago and delivered the full volume of a flooding undammed Colorado River into the Salton Sink over a span of about two years. It should never have existed to begin with.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on March 19, 2022, 11:41:15 PM
Post by: edwaleni on March 19, 2022, 11:41:15 PM
Quote from: US 89 on March 16, 2022, 07:44:07 PM
The current Salton Sea is there because our own canals failed 100 years ago and delivered the full volume of a flooding undammed Colorado River into the Salton Sink over a span of about two years. It should never have existed to begin with.
Agreed. And if it wasn't for the Southern Pacific Railroad at the time, the water would still be flowing west. Now it's named after a minor pop star of the 1960's whose ex-wife keeps the Palm Springs plastic surgery clinics on quick dial.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 11, 2022, 10:59:54 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 11, 2022, 10:59:54 PM
Does anyone know when we might hear some news about what Interstate number the US 412 corridor will receive in the future? The suspense is killing me.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on April 12, 2022, 04:38:34 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 12, 2022, 04:38:34 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 11, 2022, 10:59:54 PM
Does anyone know when we might hear some news about what Interstate number the US 412 corridor will receive in the future? The suspense is killing me.
Remember, it took ODOT the better part of a decade to build a single stack interchange. These are not people that move quickly.
I think it's likely to be years on down the road. ODOT/ArDOT haven't even finished conducting their study to see what upgrades would be needed to get an Interstate designation on this corridor. If there's a substantial amount of work, I doubt they'll make any decision about that at all until after that's funded and possibly even completed. The only thing that might change that is if ArDOT is eager to get a number for some reason.
If the work is expensive enough, ODOT may well just not pursue the designation. It wouldn't be the first time they took no action on a designated Interstate corridor.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on April 12, 2022, 08:56:03 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on April 12, 2022, 08:56:03 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 11, 2022, 10:59:54 PM
Does anyone know when we might hear some news about what Interstate number the US 412 corridor will receive in the future? The suspense is killing me.
Arkansas has some recent experience now at this point with multistate interstate projects. They will want to designate their portion as soon as there's a completion between logical termini (at least the connection between I-49 and I-44) or the gap is small enough to be inevitably closed within a decade or so. But at this point, the facility isn't designated with a number either in legislation like the I-57 segment between Sikeston and Little Rock, and no request has been made for any of the portion that's completed as a limited access facility, like Arkansas did back in the early 90's with I-49 with AASHTO that was initially rejected, forcing the temporary I-540 designation of the US-71 replacement between Bentonville and Alma.
There's still the western Springdale Bypass gap at minimum to close if ARDOT determines that the current US-412 divided highway between Tontitown and Siloam Springs is the best alternative to connect the border to the current limited access facility that ties into I-49 at Lowell, but regardless of whether or not that portion is converted to a limited access facility with overpasses and access roads, Siloam Springs/West Siloam Springs at a minimum will have to be bypassed, so since that will require coordination with both states logistically and financially, I wouldn't expect any news on much of any of the rest of the project until that coordination gets fleshed out, unless Oklahoma wants to push hard on the I-35 to I-44 segment as that wouldn't take much in the way of actual construction to be able to designate that portion as I-48/I-50.
I think with the facility ultimately (at least with this current designation) being just shy of 200 miles and across 2 states that it winds up being a 2di without question in my mind. And my avatar shows my thoughts on the matter given that this winds up being the first portion of HPC-8 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_Surface_Transportation_Efficiency_Act) that gets done.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 04:15:13 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 04:15:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 01:48:05 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 01:21:20 PM
It still looks cheap to me.
This (https://goo.gl/maps/MxVvPHrB4r4x4M9aA) doesn't look any worse than this (https://goo.gl/maps/yrmspaMMQjsNWUzD8) to me.
Or... Just found this one... How about this on I-90 (https://goo.gl/maps/yFhXJj3RJopkr8Mc9)? How is I-44 really any worse?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on April 20, 2022, 05:18:53 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 20, 2022, 05:18:53 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 04:15:13 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 01:48:05 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 01:21:20 PM
It still looks cheap to me.
This (https://goo.gl/maps/MxVvPHrB4r4x4M9aA) doesn't look any worse than this (https://goo.gl/maps/yrmspaMMQjsNWUzD8) to me.
Or... Just found this one... How about this on I-90 (https://goo.gl/maps/yFhXJj3RJopkr8Mc9)? How is I-44 really any worse?
Yellow-line to yellow-line distances:
I-90: 40 feet
I-8: 37 feet
I-44: 17 feet
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 06:02:24 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 06:02:24 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 20, 2022, 05:18:53 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 04:15:13 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 01:48:05 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 01:21:20 PM
It still looks cheap to me.
This (https://goo.gl/maps/MxVvPHrB4r4x4M9aA) doesn't look any worse than this (https://goo.gl/maps/yrmspaMMQjsNWUzD8) to me.
Or... Just found this one... How about this on I-90 (https://goo.gl/maps/yFhXJj3RJopkr8Mc9)? How is I-44 really any worse?
Yellow-line to yellow-line distances:
I-90: 40 feet
I-8: 37 feet
I-44: 17 feet
I was especially referring to the oncoming grain truck on the frontage road, with nothing but a barbed-wire fence in between.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: I-55 on April 21, 2022, 03:22:47 AM
Post by: I-55 on April 21, 2022, 03:22:47 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 06:02:24 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 20, 2022, 05:18:53 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 04:15:13 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 08, 2022, 01:48:05 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on March 08, 2022, 01:21:20 PM
It still looks cheap to me.
This (https://goo.gl/maps/MxVvPHrB4r4x4M9aA) doesn't look any worse than this (https://goo.gl/maps/yrmspaMMQjsNWUzD8) to me.
Or... Just found this one... How about this on I-90 (https://goo.gl/maps/yFhXJj3RJopkr8Mc9)? How is I-44 really any worse?
Yellow-line to yellow-line distances:
I-90: 40 feet
I-8: 37 feet
I-44: 17 feet
I was especially referring to the oncoming grain truck on the frontage road, with nothing but a barbed-wire fence in between.
White line to white line is still ~30 feet
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on April 21, 2022, 09:19:29 AM
Post by: kphoger on April 21, 2022, 09:19:29 AM
I'm assuming a cable barrier is better at actually corralling an errant vehicle than a plain barbed-wire fence is, though, right?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on April 21, 2022, 10:01:26 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on April 21, 2022, 10:01:26 AM
If the cable barrier is built to proper specifications it will be far more effective than an ordinary barbed wire fence at preventing an out of control vehicle from crossing over into opposing lanes.
Cable barriers are using much heavier gauge cables, multiple lines in a larger twisted cable. And there's usually 3 or 4 of those twisted cables running from post to post. A barbed wire fence just uses single strands of plain barbed wire. Cable barriers have far more posts than a typical barbed wire fence. Plus the cable barrier posts are metal.
Cable barriers are using much heavier gauge cables, multiple lines in a larger twisted cable. And there's usually 3 or 4 of those twisted cables running from post to post. A barbed wire fence just uses single strands of plain barbed wire. Cable barriers have far more posts than a typical barbed wire fence. Plus the cable barrier posts are metal.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on April 21, 2022, 10:23:09 AM
Post by: edwaleni on April 21, 2022, 10:23:09 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 21, 2022, 10:01:26 AM
If the cable barrier is built to proper specifications it will be far more effective than an ordinary barbed wire fence at preventing an out of control vehicle from crossing over into opposing lanes.
Cable barriers are using much heavier gauge cables, multiple lines in a larger twisted cable. And there's usually 3 or 4 of those twisted cables running from post to post. A barbed wire fence just uses single strands of plain barbed wire. Cable barriers have far more posts than a typical barbed wire fence. Plus the cable barrier posts are metal.
Cable Barrier = cars/trucks
Barbed Wire = Animals, deer, cattle
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rothman on April 21, 2022, 11:19:27 AM
Post by: Rothman on April 21, 2022, 11:19:27 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on April 21, 2022, 10:23:09 AMQuote from: Bobby5280 on April 21, 2022, 10:01:26 AM
If the cable barrier is built to proper specifications it will be far more effective than an ordinary barbed wire fence at preventing an out of control vehicle from crossing over into opposing lanes.
Cable barriers are using much heavier gauge cables, multiple lines in a larger twisted cable. And there's usually 3 or 4 of those twisted cables running from post to post. A barbed wire fence just uses single strands of plain barbed wire. Cable barriers have far more posts than a typical barbed wire fence. Plus the cable barrier posts are metal.
Cable Barrier = cars/trucks
Barbed Wire = Animals, deer, cattle, HighwayStar
My work is done here.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on April 21, 2022, 12:42:17 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on April 21, 2022, 12:42:17 PM
I guess they figure that there isn't much traffic on the access road apparently to justify a full cable barrier. At least barbed wire will keep ATVs/UTVs from hopping on the Interstate!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on April 21, 2022, 01:29:35 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on April 21, 2022, 01:29:35 PM
Never underestimate the potential idiocy of someone on an ATV with wire cutters in his possession.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on April 21, 2022, 01:47:20 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on April 21, 2022, 01:47:20 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 21, 2022, 01:29:35 PM
Never underestimate the potential idiocy of someone on an ATV with wire cutters in his possession.
... and then utters the phrase, "Here, hold my beer."
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: stevashe on April 22, 2022, 11:59:20 AM
Post by: stevashe on April 22, 2022, 11:59:20 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 21, 2022, 09:19:29 AM
I'm assuming a cable barrier is better at actually corralling an errant vehicle than a plain barbed-wire fence is, though, right?
Thing is, the extra distance (30 vs 17 feet) means there is a much lower likelihood of needing to stop an errant vehicle in the first place! Not to mention since there is more than just pavement between the lanes, that unpaved area will serve to slow the speed of any vehicle crossing over. Plus, in the case of the frontage road, there are slower speeds already in the first place.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on April 22, 2022, 12:11:59 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 22, 2022, 12:11:59 PM
Quote from: stevashe on April 22, 2022, 11:59:20 AM
Plus, in the case of the frontage road, there are slower speeds already in the first place.
...which only really matters if the errant vehicle isn't the one on the Interstate.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: stevashe on April 22, 2022, 12:26:16 PM
Post by: stevashe on April 22, 2022, 12:26:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2022, 12:11:59 PMQuote from: stevashe on April 22, 2022, 11:59:20 AM
Plus, in the case of the frontage road, there are slower speeds already in the first place.
...which only really matters if the errant vehicle isn't the one on the Interstate.
Well I assumed we were mainly talking about a potential collision between cars since otherwise the frontage road being there doesn't make much of a difference, in which case there is always a vehicle not on the interstate involved.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on April 22, 2022, 12:29:05 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 22, 2022, 12:29:05 PM
Quote from: stevashe on April 22, 2022, 12:26:16 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 22, 2022, 12:11:59 PMQuote from: stevashe on April 22, 2022, 11:59:20 AM
Plus, in the case of the frontage road, there are slower speeds already in the first place.
...which only really matters if the errant vehicle isn't the one on the Interstate.
Well I assumed we were mainly talking about a potential collision between cars since otherwise the frontage road being there doesn't make much of a difference, in which case there is always a vehicle not on the interstate involved.
I assumed you brought up the lower speed on the frontage road because an errant vehicle is less likely to due damage–or likely to go as far to begin with–if it's slow-moving. I also had in mind, however, a vehicle going 75 mph down the Interstate and going off the road in the other direction–into the frontage road.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on April 22, 2022, 12:30:28 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 22, 2022, 12:30:28 PM
My point in all this is that I really don't see much of a problem with either of them. When I first saw the cable barriers on I-44, I grimaced. But that phase passed.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on April 22, 2022, 06:05:18 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 22, 2022, 06:05:18 PM
I don't have much of a problem with cable barrier itself. I do have a problem with the 17' median width, especially since it's paved (not that unpaved medians do much more to slow down cars, but it's not like the paving helps matters).
Going back to the subject of the thread, which is the Cimarron, not the H.E. Bailey...I just measured a section of the median near the Morrison exit and got 15'. Interstate standard is 50' with no barrier, or 10' with a barrier. The question is, does FHWA consider a cable barrier sufficient to make that compliant with standard, or must OTA upgrade it to a Jersey barrier, as they did on the Turner and Will Rogers?
Going back to the subject of the thread, which is the Cimarron, not the H.E. Bailey...I just measured a section of the median near the Morrison exit and got 15'. Interstate standard is 50' with no barrier, or 10' with a barrier. The question is, does FHWA consider a cable barrier sufficient to make that compliant with standard, or must OTA upgrade it to a Jersey barrier, as they did on the Turner and Will Rogers?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on April 22, 2022, 08:54:45 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on April 22, 2022, 08:54:45 PM
I don't think cable barriers existed back in the mid 1990's when the concrete Jersey barriers were added to the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes (and H.E. Bailey between Lawton and OKC).
IIRC, current Interstate designs require a certain amount of inner left shoulder next to the left travel lane. Something like 4' to 6' in width. I think I-44 South of Lawton complies with that. The grassy median is slightly larger than a 12' highway lane. All the OTA did was just replace the grassy median strip with concrete. Still, it kind of makes the turnpike look like a 5-lane street with a cable barrier down the middle of what looks like could be a center turn lane. The Cimarron Turnpike is getting the same treatment. It's just getting built out at a slower pace.
IIRC, current Interstate designs require a certain amount of inner left shoulder next to the left travel lane. Something like 4' to 6' in width. I think I-44 South of Lawton complies with that. The grassy median is slightly larger than a 12' highway lane. All the OTA did was just replace the grassy median strip with concrete. Still, it kind of makes the turnpike look like a 5-lane street with a cable barrier down the middle of what looks like could be a center turn lane. The Cimarron Turnpike is getting the same treatment. It's just getting built out at a slower pace.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on April 22, 2022, 09:04:26 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 22, 2022, 09:04:26 PM
Assuming the cable barrier is 1 foot wide, that'd still leave 7' on either side for inner shoulders. Which is probably why they paved it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on April 24, 2022, 10:05:29 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on April 24, 2022, 10:05:29 PM
It almost seems like a couple of 5 lane "Arkansas Freeways" could be a cable barrier and some grade separation/access road building away from getting promoted to Interstate status with this criteria!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: msunat97 on July 08, 2022, 07:36:59 AM
Post by: msunat97 on July 08, 2022, 07:36:59 AM
Does anyone have a map of the proposed connection from existing 412 to the new 612 (Springdale bypass)? I can't find anything recent online.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 08, 2022, 12:03:03 PM
Post by: edwaleni on July 08, 2022, 12:03:03 PM
Quote from: msunat97 on July 08, 2022, 07:36:59 AM
Does anyone have a map of the proposed connection from existing 412 to the new 612 (Springdale bypass)? I can't find anything recent online.
http://www.ahtd.state.ar.us/environmental/environmental_studies/001966/MapInfo.aspx (http://www.ahtd.state.ar.us/environmental/environmental_studies/001966/MapInfo.aspx)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2022, 12:35:05 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2022, 12:35:05 PM
What's going to be interesting is how ArDOT and ODOT bridge the gap between the Springdale Bypass and the existing Cherokee Turnpike. Very obviously, Siloam Springs will need a new terrain bypass going around the North or South side of the town. It would be a tight squeeze to upgrade the existing US-412 highway segment from Dripping Springs over to the edge of West Siloam Springs. It might be easier to just create a new terrain bypass around that as well.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 08, 2022, 01:38:37 PM
Post by: edwaleni on July 08, 2022, 01:38:37 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2022, 12:35:05 PM
What's going to be interesting is how ArDOT and ODOT bridge the gap between the Springdale Bypass and the existing Cherokee Turnpike. Very obviously, Siloam Springs will need a new terrain bypass going around the North or South side of the town. It would be a tight squeeze to upgrade the existing US-412 highway segment from Dripping Springs over to the edge of West Siloam Springs. It might be easier to just create a new terrain bypass around that as well.
In another thread I proposed that ArDOT use an existing powerline easement that runs south of Siloam Springs to the Oklahoma border.
While the easement itself is not wide enough in total, it does reduce the overall property requirements which will improve the approvals.
I marked up a sat view showing where the easement could be used.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51859097710_a35057df05_c.jpg)
While this easement ends on the east side of town, the west side continues all the way through Oklahoma.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 08, 2022, 08:25:13 PM
Post by: swake on July 08, 2022, 08:25:13 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2022, 12:35:05 PM
What's going to be interesting is how ArDOT and ODOT bridge the gap between the Springdale Bypass and the existing Cherokee Turnpike. Very obviously, Siloam Springs will need a new terrain bypass going around the North or South side of the town. It would be a tight squeeze to upgrade the existing US-412 highway segment from Dripping Springs over to the edge of West Siloam Springs. It might be easier to just create a new terrain bypass around that as well.
OTA is already authorized to extend the Cherokee Turnpike to the Arkansas state line. They are just going to match up to whatever Arkansas does.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2022, 11:24:46 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2022, 11:24:46 PM
OTA and ArDOT had better start talking about possible alignments (if they're not doing so already). That area of Arkansas is growing. The more time those agencies waste farting around not deciding on anything will make connecting the Cherokee Turnpike and Springdale Bypass that much harder.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 09, 2022, 02:00:23 PM
Post by: swake on July 09, 2022, 02:00:23 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2022, 11:24:46 PM
OTA and ArDOT had better start talking about possible alignments (if they're not doing so already). That area of Arkansas is growing. The more time those agencies waste farting around not deciding on anything will make connecting the Cherokee Turnpike and Springdale Bypass that much harder.
The joint study is supposed to start next month. It also includes ODOT for the free sections of the road in Oklahoma that need upgrades, mostly between Catoosa and Locust Grove.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 09, 2022, 11:32:43 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 09, 2022, 11:32:43 PM
The segment of US-412 between Catoosa (I-44) and the beginning of the Cherokee Turnpike will be relatively easy to upgrade. It's the problems to the East of the Cherokee Turnpike's East terminus that will be much harder to solve.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 11, 2022, 12:29:28 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 11, 2022, 12:29:28 PM
I wonder what the new exit numbers of the existing Cherokee Turnpike will become once it eventually gets its future Interstate designation, assuming the Cimarron Turnpike's exits stay the same and the segment of the Sand Springs Expressway (and segments east of it) are numbered as a continuation of the Cimarron Turnpike's exit sequence?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 11, 2022, 03:51:34 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 11, 2022, 03:51:34 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2022, 11:24:46 PM
OTA and ArDOT had better start talking about possible alignments (if they're not doing so already). That area of Arkansas is growing. The more time those agencies waste farting around not deciding on anything will make connecting the Cherokee Turnpike and Springdale Bypass that much harder.
The longer this takes, the more likely that Siloam Springs is bypassed to the south. I have a sister-in-law that lives up on Dawn Hill north of town, and there's more subdivisions going in between Cheri Whitlock St. and Davidson Rd. along N Hico St. and N Country Club Rd., so it's only a matter of time before the development starts in earnest along Dawn Hill Rd., which would essentially make ROW acquisition unaffordable to the north without going almost up to Lake Swepco and then back south to the Flint Creek valley. It'd still have to cut through the old country club up there, which has higher than average house values, although it certainly isn't what it was back 20 years ago in relevance and upkeep.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on July 12, 2022, 10:23:13 AM
Post by: US71 on July 12, 2022, 10:23:13 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 09, 2022, 11:32:43 PM
The segment of US-412 between Catoosa (I-44) and the beginning of the Cherokee Turnpike will be relatively easy to upgrade. It's the problems to the East of the Cherokee Turnpike's East terminus that will be much harder to solve.
412 is still divided to near West Siloam Springs at the big curve but would have to be upgraded to eliminate the at-grade intersections.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 12, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 12, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
The 5 mile segment of US-412 outside of West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards. But the trick is how to dovetail the Springdale Bypass into it. They can't just hang a hard left or right near the Cherokee Casino. The bypass connection into existing US-412 will have to be made farther into Oklahoma. Siloam Springs looks like quite a hurdle. More development is spreading on the Northern side of town. There is less of that to the South, but the downside is the terrain is more hilly and challenging. It looks like any Interstate quality connection going into Oklahoma will require a few miles of new terrain highway before it can connect back into the existing US-412 route.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on July 12, 2022, 01:46:09 PM
Post by: US71 on July 12, 2022, 01:46:09 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 12, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
The 5 mile segment of US-412 outside of West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards. But the trick is how to dovetail the Springdale Bypass into it. They can't just hang a hard left or right near the Cherokee Casino. The bypass connection into existing US-412 will have to be made farther into Oklahoma. Siloam Springs looks like quite a hurdle. More development is spreading on the Northern side of town. There is less of that to the South, but the downside is the terrain is more hilly and challenging. It looks like any Interstate quality connection going into Oklahoma will require a few miles of new terrain highway before it can connect back into the existing US-412 route.
I always thought the curve would be a good space, but I have no idea what's on the other sides.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 12, 2022, 01:56:43 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 12, 2022, 01:56:43 PM
Quote from: US71 on July 12, 2022, 01:46:09 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on July 12, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
The 5 mile segment of US-412 outside of West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards. But the trick is how to dovetail the Springdale Bypass into it. They can't just hang a hard left or right near the Cherokee Casino. The bypass connection into existing US-412 will have to be made farther into Oklahoma. Siloam Springs looks like quite a hurdle. More development is spreading on the Northern side of town. There is less of that to the South, but the downside is the terrain is more hilly and challenging. It looks like any Interstate quality connection going into Oklahoma will require a few miles of new terrain highway before it can connect back into the existing US-412 route.
I always thought the curve would be a good space, but I have no idea what's on the other sides.
I'd be surprised if the Springdale Bypass dovetails at all directly with what shoots across the state line. My money's on the existing 4 lane divided highway being converted to limited access as there aren't many crossroads to deal with, and access really isn't an issue with Old Highway 68 still to the north and mainly Ozark Natl. Forest to the south. There aren't even any drives from adjoining properties that connect directly to it at all. It would look better from a map and mileage perspective to shoot straight west from where the Springdale Bypass is set to swing straight south, but the terrain between there and and north side of Siloam Springs where the easier bypass would be (at least for now) is just as full of creeks and hollows as the south side of Siloam Springs would be on a southern bypass. Not to mention Logan Cave is right near the logical new terrain route and has some endangered blind cavefish in it, so it's off limits from a development standpoint for ecological reasons. It's all karst subterrain, so it's tough to keep nasty stuff (which interstates carry a fair amount of) out of the water around there and not impact underground ecosystems. I'd personally rather it route that way from an engineering standpoint, but there's enough environmentalists around here that would put the kibosh to that plan.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 12, 2022, 05:28:29 PM
Post by: swake on July 12, 2022, 05:28:29 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 12, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
The 5 mile segment of US-412 outside of West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards. But the trick is how to dovetail the Springdale Bypass into it. They can't just hang a hard left or right near the Cherokee Casino. The bypass connection into existing US-412 will have to be made farther into Oklahoma. Siloam Springs looks like quite a hurdle. More development is spreading on the Northern side of town. There is less of that to the South, but the downside is the terrain is more hilly and challenging. It looks like any Interstate quality connection going into Oklahoma will require a few miles of new terrain highway before it can connect back into the existing US-412 route.
My guess is that it will be all new road as extension of the Cherokee turnpike. The Cherokee is already authorized by state law to be built to the Arkansas state line. The OTA can build it at any time, they just need to know where.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Henry on July 13, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
Post by: Henry on July 13, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: swake on July 12, 2022, 05:28:29 PMThe way I see it, they would be better off building to the north, despite the growing development. Plus the Springdale bypass is already to the north of existing US 412, so it really doesn't make any sense to make a sudden dive to the south just to avoid the development, plus it would be more expensive due to the terrain. In a nutshell, the northern route is the only one that makes sense.Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 12, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
The 5 mile segment of US-412 outside of West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards. But the trick is how to dovetail the Springdale Bypass into it. They can't just hang a hard left or right near the Cherokee Casino. The bypass connection into existing US-412 will have to be made farther into Oklahoma. Siloam Springs looks like quite a hurdle. More development is spreading on the Northern side of town. There is less of that to the South, but the downside is the terrain is more hilly and challenging. It looks like any Interstate quality connection going into Oklahoma will require a few miles of new terrain highway before it can connect back into the existing US-412 route.
My guess is that it will be all new road as extension of the Cherokee turnpike. The Cherokee is already authorized by state law to be built to the Arkansas state line. The OTA can build it at any time, they just need to know where.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 13, 2022, 01:09:48 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 13, 2022, 01:09:48 PM
Since the Springdale Bypass is not planned to be extended westward (or eastward) any time soon, I hope too much development doesn't pop up in the meantime. Do they have the right-of-way for the future extensions locked up so that structures won't be built in their path only to be later torn down?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 13, 2022, 04:42:37 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 13, 2022, 04:42:37 PM
Looking at the area from Google Earth it does not look like ArDOT, ODOT or OTA have made any efforts to secure ROW for a future Interstate.
Are you suggesting upgrading US-412 directly through West Siloam Springs and Siloam Springs?
Quote from: MikieTimTI'd be surprised if the Springdale Bypass dovetails at all directly with what shoots across the state line. My money's on the existing 4 lane divided highway being converted to limited access as there aren't many crossroads to deal with, and access really isn't an issue with Old Highway 68 still to the north and mainly Ozark Natl. Forest to the south.
Are you suggesting upgrading US-412 directly through West Siloam Springs and Siloam Springs?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 14, 2022, 12:05:25 AM
Post by: edwaleni on July 14, 2022, 12:05:25 AM
Quote from: Henry on July 13, 2022, 12:59:53 PMQuote from: swake on July 12, 2022, 05:28:29 PMThe way I see it, they would be better off building to the north, despite the growing development. Plus the Springdale bypass is already to the north of existing US 412, so it really doesn't make any sense to make a sudden dive to the south just to avoid the development, plus it would be more expensive due to the terrain. In a nutshell, the northern route is the only one that makes sense.Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 12, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
The 5 mile segment of US-412 outside of West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards. But the trick is how to dovetail the Springdale Bypass into it. They can't just hang a hard left or right near the Cherokee Casino. The bypass connection into existing US-412 will have to be made farther into Oklahoma. Siloam Springs looks like quite a hurdle. More development is spreading on the Northern side of town. There is less of that to the South, but the downside is the terrain is more hilly and challenging. It looks like any Interstate quality connection going into Oklahoma will require a few miles of new terrain highway before it can connect back into the existing US-412 route.
My guess is that it will be all new road as extension of the Cherokee turnpike. The Cherokee is already authorized by state law to be built to the Arkansas state line. The OTA can build it at any time, they just need to know where.
Springdale Bypass is planned to go back south and realign with US-412 west of Tontitown. It's already on the books, the route went through the EIS, they are awaiting funding.
I would imagine that when it is built out that far there will be a stub put in place (around Old Route 68) to connect it to a future update to US-412 when it is placed into interstate standards to Oklahoma.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 14, 2022, 10:31:47 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 14, 2022, 10:31:47 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 13, 2022, 04:42:37 PM
Looking at the area from Google Earth it does not look like ArDOT, ODOT or OTA have made any efforts to secure ROW for a future Interstate.Quote from: MikieTimTI'd be surprised if the Springdale Bypass dovetails at all directly with what shoots across the state line. My money's on the existing 4 lane divided highway being converted to limited access as there aren't many crossroads to deal with, and access really isn't an issue with Old Highway 68 still to the north and mainly Ozark Natl. Forest to the south.
Are you suggesting US-412 directly through West Siloam Springs and Siloam Springs?
Not at all. All I'm saying is that there is almost assuredly not going to be any new terrain construction of US-412 between the Springdale Bypass and what becomes the Siloam Springs Bypass. There's going to be the dip south already for the western leg of the Springdale Bypass, so they'll almost definitely convert the existing US-412 between Tontitown and Siloam Springs to limited access due to financial and ecological constraints. If it appears that a southern bypass of Siloam Springs looks undesirable due to topology, a quick view of the terrain using Google Maps Terrain Layer between the current end of AR-612 at AR-112 and the north side of Siloam Springs will confirm it's just as bad but over longer distance. So the desire to have an I-4X/I-50 that goes from Lowell straight across the north side of Siloam Springs and West Siloam Springs and neatly ties into the existing east end of the Cherokee Turnpike is pretty much a roadgeek fantasy. Maybe in a world where Arkansas was a rich state and Siloam Springs was bypassed to the north over a decade ago when it made much more sense than the stupid 6-laning through the gut of town and allowing all of the development to take the most level terrain, it could have been different.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 14, 2022, 04:56:07 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 14, 2022, 04:56:07 PM
I know the proposed Interstate upgrade between the West end of the Springdale Bypass will likely overlap the existing US-412 divided highway some distance going West toward Siloam Springs. The big question is: where will the alignment be placed as it crosses the OK/AR border?
An in-town route through Siloam Springs and West Siloam Springs is impossible. Some kind of bypass will be necessary. Going around the North side of town looks easier from an engineering stand point. The downside is it will add more length to the bypass. But a bypass around the North side of Siloam Springs doesn't have to immediately come back down to existing US-412 on the Oklahoma side of the border. In Oklahoma, existing US-412 between Dripping Springs and West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards, but some properties next to the road would still have to be taken (especially if frontage roads were to be added). If the US-412 Interstate upgraded route crosses the border well North of town it could just cut a new terrain path over to the existing turnpike and shave a couple or so miles off the route in the process.
An in-town route through Siloam Springs and West Siloam Springs is impossible. Some kind of bypass will be necessary. Going around the North side of town looks easier from an engineering stand point. The downside is it will add more length to the bypass. But a bypass around the North side of Siloam Springs doesn't have to immediately come back down to existing US-412 on the Oklahoma side of the border. In Oklahoma, existing US-412 between Dripping Springs and West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards, but some properties next to the road would still have to be taken (especially if frontage roads were to be added). If the US-412 Interstate upgraded route crosses the border well North of town it could just cut a new terrain path over to the existing turnpike and shave a couple or so miles off the route in the process.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 15, 2022, 06:43:22 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 15, 2022, 06:43:22 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 14, 2022, 04:56:07 PM
I know the proposed Interstate upgrade between the West end of the Springdale Bypass will likely overlap the existing US-412 divided highway some distance going West toward Siloam Springs. The big question is: where will the alignment be placed as it crosses the OK/AR border?
An in-town route through Siloam Springs and West Siloam Springs is impossible. Some kind of bypass will be necessary. Going around the North side of town looks easier from an engineering stand point. The downside is it will add more length to the bypass. But a bypass around the North side of Siloam Springs doesn't have to immediately come back down to existing US-412 on the Oklahoma side of the border. In Oklahoma, existing US-412 between Dripping Springs and West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards, but some properties next to the road would still have to be taken (especially if frontage roads were to be added). If the US-412 Interstate upgraded route crosses the border well North of town it could just cut a new terrain path over to the existing turnpike and shave a couple or so miles off the route in the process.
At this point, it'll have to be well north of town. Like south of Lake Swepco (Lake Flint Creek on Google Maps, but no one local calls it that), but I figure likely just to the south of the dam on the south side as it bumps up to Gentry on the north side. It could then follow the north edge of Little Flint Creek until it gets to Flint Creek and then continue along the edge of the Flint Creek valley all the way to the east end of the Cherokee Turnpike. I don't see it going south of Siloam Springs Lake anymore with all of the development in progress without buying up some newly built and as a result quite expensive residential housing, unless they do a southern bypass altogether. It wouldn't shock me for them to take a northern bypass a little further north to the south side of Colcord as the terrain is easier that way and then circle back to Kansas to tie in. Probably adds about 3-4 miles, but cheaper dirtwork for a couple of cheapskate states. I guess we'll see in the not too distant future when they finish their study. I'm almost of the mindset that a southern bypass is getting more and more likely the longer it takes to secure ROW, but with that said, there's lots of dirt moving on the east side of Siloam Springs now down AR-16 along Kenmoore, with more likely as soon as they finish with all the open pasture around them. That'll necessitate a sharp bend south for a southern bypass, making its routing just as ugly as the Springdale Bypass when it finishes. All I can say is, both states better find some money for this fast, or the bypasses either direction are going to take sharper swings along longer bypasses. Benton County is still booming.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on July 16, 2022, 09:11:25 AM
Post by: rte66man on July 16, 2022, 09:11:25 AM
How about something approximately like this:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52219829541_1017c6f469.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nyuh1D)
IMO you wouldn't want to go any further north.
p.s. I really can't draw in this app.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52219829541_1017c6f469.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nyuh1D)
IMO you wouldn't want to go any further north.
p.s. I really can't draw in this app.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 16, 2022, 04:17:49 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 16, 2022, 04:17:49 PM
What I had in mind was a little more like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/jvQVWJv.jpg)
Sorry for the small image size; I forget what the forum size limit is, so I set the width at 800px. Also I don't know why Hurricane Express has a pin drop on it. I must have clicked on something before taking the screen shot.
(https://i.imgur.com/jvQVWJv.jpg)
Sorry for the small image size; I forget what the forum size limit is, so I set the width at 800px. Also I don't know why Hurricane Express has a pin drop on it. I must have clicked on something before taking the screen shot.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Alps on July 17, 2022, 12:26:24 AM
Post by: Alps on July 17, 2022, 12:26:24 AM
Please do not go into Fictional territory. Wait for them to announce something.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on July 17, 2022, 08:32:49 PM
Post by: Road Hog on July 17, 2022, 08:32:49 PM
The boss has spoken. All street level through Siloam! Breezewood will be jelly AF.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on July 17, 2022, 08:47:43 PM
Post by: rte66man on July 17, 2022, 08:47:43 PM
Quote from: Alps on July 17, 2022, 12:26:24 AM
Please do not go into Fictional territory. Wait for them to announce something.
I went by the title of the thread "PROPOSED US412 Upgrade". Silly me.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 17, 2022, 10:41:42 PM
Post by: swake on July 17, 2022, 10:41:42 PM
Fictional and predictive are two different things.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Alps on July 18, 2022, 12:42:50 AM
Post by: Alps on July 18, 2022, 12:42:50 AM
Quote from: swake on July 17, 2022, 10:41:42 PMyes, and showing "this is what I'd like to see" is fictional. predictive is "this is what i believe the DOT is going to come out with" and that really doesn't ever have a basis in reality so thread to be locked shortly if we can't get back on topic thx
Fictional and predictive are two different things.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 18, 2022, 02:16:49 PM
Post by: swake on July 18, 2022, 02:16:49 PM
I haven't posted here long and maybe I am confused, but how is discussing the possible paths of a planned upgrade to a highway some kind of violation of forum guidelines?
These posts are certainly on the topic of "proposed 412 upgrade". I can't find in the forum guidelines where "fictional" is mentioned at all. And while there is a fictional roads sub-forum this highway is not fictional, it exists. A bill in congress was passed last year to upgrade this highway to an interstate and a study for upgrade is going on now.
These posts are certainly on the topic of "proposed 412 upgrade". I can't find in the forum guidelines where "fictional" is mentioned at all. And while there is a fictional roads sub-forum this highway is not fictional, it exists. A bill in congress was passed last year to upgrade this highway to an interstate and a study for upgrade is going on now.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2022, 03:07:41 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2022, 03:07:41 PM
I have started a Fictional Highways thread on the future Siloam Springs bypass: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=31840.0.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on July 18, 2022, 04:08:09 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 18, 2022, 04:08:09 PM
Quote from: swake on July 18, 2022, 02:16:49 PM
I haven't posted here long and maybe I am confused, but how is discussing the possible paths of a planned upgrade to a highway some kind of violation of forum guidelines?
These posts are certainly on the topic of "proposed 412 upgrade". I can't find in the forum guidelines where "fictional" is mentioned at all. And while there is a fictional roads sub-forum this highway is not fictional, it exists. A bill in congress was passed last year to upgrade this highway to an interstate and a study for upgrade is going on now.
In general all speculation goes to Fictional Highways and the main forums are reserved for factual information. The reason being we don't want people getting confused and seeing the speculative maps here and assuming that they represent what is really getting built. That can lead to misinformation. Additionally, there are some members who follow these threads who are interested only in what is getting built and find the speculation to be a waste of time.
We already have 30 some-odd rules in the rules list. I'm sure it's long enough there are some people that don't bother reading the whole thing. Adding rules codifying things that should be obvious, like "please post things in the correct subforum", would just make that more likely.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: In_Correct on July 19, 2022, 02:02:07 AM
Post by: In_Correct on July 19, 2022, 02:02:07 AM
QuoteMap:
For what it is worth, Bobby5280's map would be the best option so far. This highway upgrade is not fictional; It seems to be a result of the letter that I typed to Senators requesting more Beautiful
Toll Roads be constructed. Perhaps I shall include that map of the bypass in my next letter. Also to make the Unofficial Proposed Map not be misunderstood as Official, it ought to be spun off in its own thread where a Poll is included about which one is best. I would gladly vote for that Map.
QuoteRules:
The Fictional is the most confusing about aaroads. It is so confusing, that one of my discussions about Wichita Falls was moved to Fictional. I now try to include links to the sources. I remember a time when a thread was locked while the Rules were being revised. I understand it is not possible to type every rule for every possibility until they actually happen. However, not typing them be cause people do not want to read them is a bad reason. Literacy must be encouraged.
QuoteEdit:
Even if it is not on the Rules, perhaps they have their own dedicated Post, such as this one.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1809.0
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Before Oklahoma is able to sign anything east of the western I-44 interchange, they really need to straighten out the janky westbound US-412 interchange with OK-66. Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
https://goo.gl/maps/SUjj4GPLqPo859Ab7 (https://goo.gl/maps/SUjj4GPLqPo859Ab7)
https://goo.gl/maps/SUjj4GPLqPo859Ab7 (https://goo.gl/maps/SUjj4GPLqPo859Ab7)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 22, 2022, 12:24:06 PM
Post by: swake on July 22, 2022, 12:24:06 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Before Oklahoma is able to sign anything east of the western I-44 interchange, they really need to straighten out the janky westbound US-412 interchange with OK-66. Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
https://goo.gl/maps/SUjj4GPLqPo859Ab7 (https://goo.gl/maps/SUjj4GPLqPo859Ab7)
That is already an interstate, it's I-44 itself. ODOT does have some work planned for that interchange in 2024.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PM
Post by: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 23, 2022, 09:20:49 PM
Post by: edwaleni on July 23, 2022, 09:20:49 PM
Quote from: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
Too funny. I have a video somewhere of me traversing that very segment in the St Regis ravine in the dead of winter with snow up to my axles following a semi-truck (he was my plow so to speak) so I can make it to Missoula.
No plows. No sand. It was brutal. No 45mph then. It was strictly 10mph if that. Anti-lock brakes were worthless. What a memory.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Revive 755 on July 23, 2022, 10:17:37 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on July 23, 2022, 10:17:37 PM
Quote from: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
I-55 easily beats I-90:
One 20 mph section at the west end of the PSB in St. Louis. (https://goo.gl/maps/HgbwF4c7xEEfS9q16) Northbound through the same interchange is only 25 mph. (https://goo.gl/maps/unK5txogRJsdyGkg6)
There's also the 25 mph mainline loop on I-55 in Memphis. (https://goo.gl/maps/kL3fnbqTxw3RoMGb9) Southbound at that same location is only 25 mph. (https://goo.gl/maps/Bra5Z8ym1M8LQHep7)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 25, 2022, 06:19:39 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 25, 2022, 06:19:39 PM
Quote from: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
Terrain sort of dictates that speed there on I-90. If you look at Google Maps Street View on I-44 (https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuTi8nmRdCJQrvn9) there, I find that the terrain between both ends of the bend is slightly less difficult to traverse than much of the topology of Illinois.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 25, 2022, 06:23:46 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 25, 2022, 06:23:46 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on July 23, 2022, 10:17:37 PMQuote from: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
I-55 easily beats I-90:
One 20 mph section at the west end of the PSB in St. Louis. (https://goo.gl/maps/HgbwF4c7xEEfS9q16) Northbound through the same interchange is only 25 mph. (https://goo.gl/maps/unK5txogRJsdyGkg6)
There's also the 25 mph mainline loop on I-55 in Memphis. (https://goo.gl/maps/kL3fnbqTxw3RoMGb9) Southbound at that same location is only 25 mph. (https://goo.gl/maps/Bra5Z8ym1M8LQHep7)
I avoid driving through Memphis on the way to I-22 as a result of this very travesty in addition to the crazy drivers on I-240/I-55. To say nothing of the perpetual state of road construction through there.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 25, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
Post by: swake on July 25, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 25, 2022, 06:19:39 PMQuote from: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
Terrain sort of dictates that speed there on I-90. If you look at Google Maps Street View on I-44 (https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuTi8nmRdCJQrvn9) there, I find that the terrain between both ends of the bend is slightly less difficult to traverse than much of the topology of Illinois.
That odd curve has nothing to do with topography. Before the Creek Turnpike extension built a new I-44/US-412 interchange a mile to the east that curve was part of the old I-44/US-412/OK-66 interchange. The through lanes came from the northeast on I-44 instead of from the east on US-412 and ODOT has never fixed it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: I-55 on July 28, 2022, 06:39:17 PM
Post by: I-55 on July 28, 2022, 06:39:17 PM
Quote from: swake on July 25, 2022, 07:52:19 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 25, 2022, 06:19:39 PMQuote from: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
Terrain sort of dictates that speed there on I-90. If you look at Google Maps Street View on I-44 (https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuTi8nmRdCJQrvn9) there, I find that the terrain between both ends of the bend is slightly less difficult to traverse than much of the topology of Illinois.
That odd curve has nothing to do with topography. Before the Creek Turnpike extension built a new I-44/US-412 interchange a mile to the east that curve was part of the old I-44/US-412/OK-66 interchange. The through lanes came from the northeast on I-44 instead of from the east on US-412 and ODOT has never fixed it.
And you can still see the old lanes on satellite on the northeast side of the interchange. Feels like the abandoned PA turnpike without hills.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 06:50:26 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 06:50:26 PM
Quote from: I-55 on July 28, 2022, 06:39:17 PMQuote from: swake on July 25, 2022, 07:52:19 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 25, 2022, 06:19:39 PMQuote from: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
Terrain sort of dictates that speed there on I-90. If you look at Google Maps Street View on I-44 (https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuTi8nmRdCJQrvn9) there, I find that the terrain between both ends of the bend is slightly less difficult to traverse than much of the topology of Illinois.
That odd curve has nothing to do with topography. Before the Creek Turnpike extension built a new I-44/US-412 interchange a mile to the east that curve was part of the old I-44/US-412/OK-66 interchange. The through lanes came from the northeast on I-44 instead of from the east on US-412 and ODOT has never fixed it.
And you can still see the old lanes on satellite on the northeast side of the interchange. Feels like the abandoned PA turnpike without hills.
(https://i.imgur.com/QBmVORS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/M2BfA4j.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Alps on July 28, 2022, 11:28:38 PM
Post by: Alps on July 28, 2022, 11:28:38 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 06:50:26 PMwas this from a certain monday road meetQuote from: I-55 on July 28, 2022, 06:39:17 PMQuote from: swake on July 25, 2022, 07:52:19 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 25, 2022, 06:19:39 PMQuote from: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
Terrain sort of dictates that speed there on I-90. If you look at Google Maps Street View on I-44 (https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuTi8nmRdCJQrvn9) there, I find that the terrain between both ends of the bend is slightly less difficult to traverse than much of the topology of Illinois.
That odd curve has nothing to do with topography. Before the Creek Turnpike extension built a new I-44/US-412 interchange a mile to the east that curve was part of the old I-44/US-412/OK-66 interchange. The through lanes came from the northeast on I-44 instead of from the east on US-412 and ODOT has never fixed it.
And you can still see the old lanes on satellite on the northeast side of the interchange. Feels like the abandoned PA turnpike without hills.
(https://i.imgur.com/QBmVORS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/M2BfA4j.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on July 29, 2022, 11:52:34 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 29, 2022, 11:52:34 AM
Quote from: Alps on July 28, 2022, 11:28:38 PM
was this from a certain monday road meet
It may be from a certain Monday road meet. :P
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: stevashe on July 29, 2022, 03:37:01 PM
Post by: stevashe on July 29, 2022, 03:37:01 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 25, 2022, 06:19:39 PMQuote from: stevashe on July 23, 2022, 03:01:46 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 22, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.
I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you. (https://goo.gl/maps/C832ya7iPGFU4dgRA)
Terrain sort of dictates that speed there on I-90. If you look at Google Maps Street View on I-44 (https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuTi8nmRdCJQrvn9) there, I find that the terrain between both ends of the bend is slightly less difficult to traverse than much of the topology of Illinois.
You are absolutely correct, but since your original wording made it sound like no interstate anywhere should ever have 45 mph curves and you gave no exceptions, I thought I'd have a bit of fun poking a hole in that statement :-P
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: DJStephens on July 31, 2022, 12:08:28 PM
Post by: DJStephens on July 31, 2022, 12:08:28 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on November 30, 2021, 10:32:54 AM
Contacted the city administrator by email, and he was kind enough to email me the PDF of the study that was done in '04. There were 3 different bypass routes considered, but apparently the comments by locals swayed them towards the 6-laning they did instead.
https://misc.transport.road.narkive.com/C5tPsmXj/no-us-412-siloam-springs-bypass-to-be-built (https://misc.transport.road.narkive.com/C5tPsmXj/no-us-412-siloam-springs-bypass-to-be-built)
Here is a picture of the bypass options from 2004. I didn't know how to upload the full PDF to the Gallery as I couldn't find this study anywhere online, so just saved a snip of the map. Corridor B was the most inexpensive alternative.
(https://i.imgur.com/1tFYKni.jpg)
Sounds very similar to events in Muskogee, OK. Where they have tabled/backburned a potential high grade bypass that should have at least the ROW preserved for.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: debaterthatchases on August 27, 2022, 09:23:48 PM
Post by: debaterthatchases on August 27, 2022, 09:23:48 PM
New BGS w/ Springdale, AR as the control city for US-412, as opposed to the usual Siloam Springs, from ODOT. Taken today
(https://i.imgur.com/7pw8Lx0.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/7pw8Lx0.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on August 28, 2022, 02:38:40 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 28, 2022, 02:38:40 AM
I think that's the first hint at the US-412 upgrade plan to appear in the field. Nice find! This sets up a sort of weird situation where Springdale will be a control city on I-? but not on I-49 (which uses Fayetteville, or Fort Smith, depending on who's doing the telling).
(Also that sign is really good for ODOT. I'm not sure whether Division 8 actually has some semblance of standards now or Tulsa has just gotten lucky with contractors lately...)
(Also that sign is really good for ODOT. I'm not sure whether Division 8 actually has some semblance of standards now or Tulsa has just gotten lucky with contractors lately...)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: debaterthatchases on August 28, 2022, 12:22:51 PM
Post by: debaterthatchases on August 28, 2022, 12:22:51 PM
This was on the recently resurfaced ramp from SB US-75 to EB I-244. The NB 75 section of the IDL is currently being resurfaced, so I wonder if the NB to EB signs will reflect the upgrade plans, or if this sign was an exception.
(Also District 8 has done exceptionally well on their BGS replacements lately, but their reassurance shields could use a little work)
Edit: Did some sneaking around on the NB US-75 to EB I-244/IS-412 BGS's, and from the one I found, the only control city on there was Joplin. The I-244/ E 1st St. BGS hasn't been replaced yet, so that may be one last place to look for an updated control city on the IDL. Hoping some BGS's east of Tulsa get replaced soon so we can confirm if this was a one-off or not.
Also to answer your question, the logical thing to do would have ArDOT update the I-49 control to Springdale, as that's where the new interstate would intersect.
(Also District 8 has done exceptionally well on their BGS replacements lately, but their reassurance shields could use a little work)
Edit: Did some sneaking around on the NB US-75 to EB I-244/IS-412 BGS's, and from the one I found, the only control city on there was Joplin. The I-244/ E 1st St. BGS hasn't been replaced yet, so that may be one last place to look for an updated control city on the IDL. Hoping some BGS's east of Tulsa get replaced soon so we can confirm if this was a one-off or not.
Also to answer your question, the logical thing to do would have ArDOT update the I-49 control to Springdale, as that's where the new interstate would intersect.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on August 29, 2022, 06:58:50 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 29, 2022, 06:58:50 PM
Quote from: debaterthatchases on August 28, 2022, 12:22:51 PM
Also to answer your question, the logical thing to do would have ArDOT update the I-49 control to Springdale, as that's where the new interstate would intersect.
I'm not entirely convinced that would be the best idea–of the three cities in the northwest Arkansas metro, Springdale is probably the least well-known. Bentonville has Walmart, and Fayetteville has the university–the only real thing of note Springdale will have is the freeway junction.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on August 29, 2022, 08:03:59 PM
Post by: US71 on August 29, 2022, 08:03:59 PM
FWIW: the Springdale Bypass will cross I-49 at the Lowell/Springdale/Elm Springs border. I'm guessing any possible Interstate would include at least part of that bypass?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on August 29, 2022, 09:04:37 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on August 29, 2022, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 29, 2022, 06:58:50 PMQuote from: debaterthatchases on August 28, 2022, 12:22:51 PM
Also to answer your question, the logical thing to do would have ArDOT update the I-49 control to Springdale, as that's where the new interstate would intersect.
I'm not entirely convinced that would be the best idea–of the three cities in the northwest Arkansas metro, Springdale is probably the least well-known. Bentonville has Walmart, and Fayetteville has the university–the only real thing of note Springdale will have is the freeway junction.
There's a meat company called Tyson Foods that's a fairly significant player (Fortune 100) who has their headquarters in Springdale. It's not a nothing city, and is likely to be the biggest city in NWA within the decade given its growth trajectory over the last 21 years, business friendly city government, and has the largest school district in the state. It's also home to the area's only professional sports team, the Arkansas Naturals (minor league baseball).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2022, 09:45:37 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2022, 09:45:37 PM
Are they any closer to a preliminary proposal on what Interstate designation will eventually be designated along the corridor?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on August 29, 2022, 09:59:48 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 29, 2022, 09:59:48 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2022, 09:45:37 PM
Are they any closer to a preliminary proposal on what Interstate designation will eventually be designated along the corridor?
They haven't even finished studying whether or not they're going to build it yet.
Ask again in 2027.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Avalanchez71 on August 31, 2022, 02:28:24 AM
Post by: Avalanchez71 on August 31, 2022, 02:28:24 AM
I'll go with the no build alternative.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 31, 2022, 02:53:58 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 31, 2022, 02:53:58 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 31, 2022, 02:28:24 AMNot sure what's more shocking, the fact you *claim to* support the no build alternative or the fact someone will surely respond to your obvious trolling. Haha spoiler alert, I'm not really surprised at any of those things. Of course here I am responding to you but I'm sure someone else would if I didn't. :)
I'll go with the no build alternative.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on August 31, 2022, 03:51:53 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 31, 2022, 03:51:53 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 31, 2022, 02:28:24 AM
I'll go with the no build alternative.
You're not going to go with anything, because you have no say in it. Your opinion can stay in Tennessee where it belongs.
Oklahoma wants this road, not least because it will serve a major industrial facility east of Tulsa that the state government is trying to incentivize manufacturers to invest in.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on August 31, 2022, 07:09:03 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 31, 2022, 07:09:03 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 31, 2022, 02:53:58 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on August 31, 2022, 02:28:24 AMNot sure what's more shocking, the fact you *claim to* support the no build alternative or the fact someone will surely respond to your obvious trolling. Haha spoiler alert, I'm not really surprised at any of those things. Of course here I am responding to you but I'm sure someone else would if I didn't. :)
I'll go with the no build alternative.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 31, 2022, 03:51:53 AMIt's a troll. Just ignore the comments altogether and don't feed into him.Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 31, 2022, 02:28:24 AM
I'll go with the no build alternative.
You're not going to go with anything, because you have no say in it. Your opinion can stay in Tennessee where it belongs.
Oklahoma wants this road, not least because it will serve a major industrial facility east of Tulsa that the state government is trying to incentivize manufacturers to invest in.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: plain on August 31, 2022, 09:58:59 AM
Post by: plain on August 31, 2022, 09:58:59 AM
Usually I'm against unnecessary interstate designations and/or routings (NC,TX) but this one definitely has merit. A Tulsa-NWA connection would be a fine connection.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on September 01, 2022, 12:02:02 PM
Post by: rte66man on September 01, 2022, 12:02:02 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 31, 2022, 03:51:53 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on August 31, 2022, 02:28:24 AM
I'll go with the no build alternative.
You're not going to go with anything, because you have no say in it. Your opinion can stay in Tennessee where it belongs.
Oklahoma wants this road, not least because it will serve a major industrial facility east of Tulsa that the state government is trying to incentivize manufacturers to invest in.
The whole history of the Tulsa to Springdale road is fascinating. From being OK33 (I well remember the "I drove 33 and I survived" t-shirts) to it's current incarnation as US412 to future I-??. I'll see if I can find some of the articles from the mid 1970s that might explain the great desire of people in NE OK to have a decent connection to NW AR.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on September 01, 2022, 04:32:06 PM
Post by: swake on September 01, 2022, 04:32:06 PM
Of course this makes sense. It connects two metro areas that are just 100 miles apart but in two different states.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on September 01, 2022, 04:51:10 PM
Post by: US71 on September 01, 2022, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: rte66man on September 01, 2022, 12:02:02 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 31, 2022, 03:51:53 AMQuote from: Avalanchez71 on August 31, 2022, 02:28:24 AM
I'll go with the no build alternative.
You're not going to go with anything, because you have no say in it. Your opinion can stay in Tennessee where it belongs.
Oklahoma wants this road, not least because it will serve a major industrial facility east of Tulsa that the state government is trying to incentivize manufacturers to invest in.
The whole history of the Tulsa to Springdale road is fascinating. From being OK33 (I well remember the "I drove 33 and I survived" t-shirts) to it's current incarnation as US412 to future I-??. I'll see if I can find some of the articles from the mid 1970s that might explain the great desire of people in NE OK to have a decent connection to NW AR.
Also AR 68 before 412 .
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 01, 2022, 07:24:56 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 01, 2022, 07:24:56 PM
Maybe someone should come out with "I drove 412 and survived" t-shirts. However, I'm sure the irony would be lost on most people.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on September 01, 2022, 07:57:21 PM
Post by: US71 on September 01, 2022, 07:57:21 PM
We used to have a bumper sticker around here:
I Travel US 71 in Arkansas
Pray for Me
Pray for Me
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 01, 2022, 10:15:50 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 01, 2022, 10:15:50 PM
Quote from: US71 on September 01, 2022, 07:57:21 PM
We used to have a bumper sticker around here:I Travel US 71 in Arkansas
Pray for Me
I remember the AHTD sign at the top of the mountain going down into Mountainburg that had the running death tally over the last few years and the recommendation of "Don't You Be Next." It's a fun drive now, but I remember a big crater on that road at the bottom of the decent going into Mountainburg caused by a VW Beetle sized boulder falling off the mountain onto the pavement and crushing it. Good times...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on September 01, 2022, 10:47:18 PM
Post by: US71 on September 01, 2022, 10:47:18 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on September 01, 2022, 10:15:50 PMQuote from: US71 on September 01, 2022, 07:57:21 PM
We used to have a bumper sticker around here:I Travel US 71 in Arkansas
Pray for Me
I remember the AHTD sign at the top of the mountain going down into Mountainburg that had the running death tally over the last few years and the recommendation of "Don't You Be Next." It's a fun drive now, but I remember a big crater on that road at the bottom of the decent going into Mountainburg caused by a VW Beetle sized boulder falling off the mountain onto the pavement and crushing it. Good times...
Yup. One sign was just north of AR 74 at Winslow, the other was just south of AR 348 . I sort of remember the boulder incident.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on September 15, 2022, 06:24:52 PM
Post by: rte66man on September 15, 2022, 06:24:52 PM
From the September 2022 Commission agenda:
I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of this cost is the stretch from Catoosa to just east of Chouteau as it is the last non-limited access section in Oklahoma. I can't see the part just west of Siloam Springs to be too complicated.
Quote
Multiple Counties — Districts IV and VIII (CI-2378)
The Department has selected HNTB Corporation to provide preliminary engineering for US-412:
from I-35 in Noble County, Oklahoma to I-49 in Benton County, Arkansas. Services to include preliminary engineering studies.
CI-2378 HNTB Corporation
Total Not to Exceed Amount $3,151,110.00
I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of this cost is the stretch from Catoosa to just east of Chouteau as it is the last non-limited access section in Oklahoma. I can't see the part just west of Siloam Springs to be too complicated.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 15, 2022, 07:20:38 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 15, 2022, 07:20:38 PM
So does this mean they have reached a decision to actually go through with upgrades, or is that what they intend to find out with this $3 million?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on September 16, 2022, 01:32:30 PM
Post by: rte66man on September 16, 2022, 01:32:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 15, 2022, 07:20:38 PM
So does this mean they have reached a decision to actually go through with upgrades, or is that what they intend to find out with this $3 million?
I believe the latter is true.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 19, 2022, 12:57:01 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 19, 2022, 12:57:01 PM
Some news on the Arkansas side of the border. Looks like $100M for 2025 to finish the western leg of the Springdale Bypass (AR-612) that will be a segment of this future I-**. This is according to the 2023-2026 draft STIP just published on ARDOT a few days ago. Not a done deal, but likely won't undergo significant changes from draft status.
https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2023-2026_STIP_Draft_General_Electronic.pdf (https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2023-2026_STIP_Draft_General_Electronic.pdf) Pg. 42 (Slide 73)
https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2023-2026_STIP_Draft_General_Electronic.pdf (https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2023-2026_STIP_Draft_General_Electronic.pdf) Pg. 42 (Slide 73)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 27, 2022, 05:30:03 PM
Post by: bugo on September 27, 2022, 05:30:03 PM
Quote from: rte66man on September 01, 2022, 12:02:02 PM
The whole history of the Tulsa to Springdale road is fascinating. From being OK33 (I well remember the "I drove 33 and I survived" t-shirts) to it's current incarnation as US412 to future I-??. I'll see if I can find some of the articles from the mid 1970s that might explain the great desire of people in NE OK to have a decent connection to NW AR.
(https://i.imgur.com/I5ykzGm.jpg)
The old highway from Chouteau to Flint was originally OK 11, then OK 33, then US 412, then Scenic US 412, and now Alternate US 412. And part of it is US 59. If I-?? does come through, they might end up changing the designation again.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on September 27, 2022, 06:41:44 PM
Post by: rte66man on September 27, 2022, 06:41:44 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 27, 2022, 05:30:03 PMQuote from: rte66man on September 01, 2022, 12:02:02 PM
The whole history of the Tulsa to Springdale road is fascinating. From being OK33 (I well remember the "I drove 33 and I survived" t-shirts) to it's current incarnation as US412 to future I-??. I'll see if I can find some of the articles from the mid 1970s that might explain the great desire of people in NE OK to have a decent connection to NW AR.
(https://i.imgur.com/I5ykzGm.jpg)
The old highway from Chouteau to Flint was originally OK 11, then OK 33, then US 412, then Scenic US 412, and now Alternate US 412. And part of it is US 59. If I-?? does come through, they might end up changing the designation again.
Bugo, I should have known you would still have the bumper sticker!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 27, 2022, 06:47:07 PM
Post by: bugo on September 27, 2022, 06:47:07 PM
Quote from: rte66man on September 27, 2022, 06:41:44 PM
Bugo, I should have known you would still have the bumper sticker!
I don't actually have the bumper sticker. I found this image on the internet about 10 or 15 years ago, and I saved it. I did think about getting a T shirt like this printed, though.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 27, 2022, 09:58:26 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 27, 2022, 09:58:26 PM
When they actually get I-XX completed between NWA and Tulsa, we ought to have a joint 2 day roadgeek meet starting at either end one morning, driving the new route one direction, exploring the roads of interest at the other end, staying overnight, then driving the old original back the other direction as much as remains afterwards, exploring the roads of interest at the other end. Who knows when that will actually be, so hopefully there are some roads of interest at both ends at that point in time as some of the current road newness at both ends will be old hat by then, but surely others will crop up that we can only speculate about now.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 28, 2022, 04:24:25 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 28, 2022, 04:24:25 PM
A roadgeek meet sounds good to me. How many decades do you think it will be before this roadgeek get-together happens?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 28, 2022, 05:15:58 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 28, 2022, 05:15:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 28, 2022, 04:24:25 PM
A roadgeek meet sounds good to me. How many decades do you think it will be before this roadgeek get-together happens?
You could probably buy a house today and have it paid off by the time I-? is fully finished and signed.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 28, 2022, 10:18:08 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 28, 2022, 10:18:08 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 28, 2022, 05:15:58 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on September 28, 2022, 04:24:25 PM
A roadgeek meet sounds good to me. How many decades do you think it will be before this roadgeek get-together happens?
You could probably buy a house today and have it paid off by the time I-? is fully finished and signed.
I don't know about that. The hardest part about all of it is bypassing Siloam Springs as most everything other than the imminent completion of the western leg of the Springdale Bypass in 2-3 years is really just interchanges/short access roads in the areas that aren't fully controlled access. Oklahoma isn't far off on their much larger portion, but Arkansas is doing fairly well as of late coming up with funds from the 1/2 cent tax for chunks of major projects.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 12:48:52 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 12:48:52 AM
I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they wait until Arkansas starts the Siloam Springs bypass to build a new alignment in West Siloam Springs or will they build the freeway to the state line like Kansas with I-35? When Arkansas will start on their portion is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 29, 2022, 10:50:46 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 29, 2022, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 12:48:52 AM
I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they wait until Arkansas starts the Siloam Springs bypass to build a new alignment in West Siloam Springs or will they build the freeway to the state line like Kansas with I-35? When Arkansas will start on their portion is anyone's guess.
They already have. The Springdale Northern Bypass was designed as the new interstate's interchange with I-49. The portion between I-49 and AR-112 is done other than exit numbering and signage. That's really the only difficult part other than bypassing Siloam Springs. The next leg from AR-112 to current US-412's divided highway section is getting funds in 2025 according to the 2023-2026 Draft STIP, so I'd expect movement on that section shortly thereafter.
012326 Benton & Washington 612 Hwy. 412 — Hwy. 112 (Springdale Bypass) (S) New Location 100,000(x$1000) NARTS
They will do the section from AR-112 to where it's designed to bend south next so that they can do the XNA Connector road, so that'll be a priority as the airport access still sucks from I-49. I image they will be studying whether to do new terrain development straight from that point, or take the bypass back down to US-412 as designed and tie in with the divided highway. I'd bet on the latter due to funds as it only takes a few interchanges and very short access roads to convert existing US-412 where it's currently divided west of Tontitown all the way to the edge of Siloam Springs as Old Highway 68 serves very well for local access to bordering landowners most of the way of that 9 mile segment. ARDOT has even recently replaced bridges on Old Highway 68 over Wildcat Creek and Osage Creek, and the pavement is still in good shape, even the climb lanes out of the creek valleys, so the most of the locals are well served with that facility for access. The big question mark in all of it is the Siloam Springs Bypass. Subdivision development is still pretty consistent north of US-412. That's going to be the biggest unclear part of Arkansas' side until the study is complete. If it takes more than a decade, development will likely dictate the bypass will either run up toward Gentry, or through the more challenging terrain to the south of Siloam Springs. Arkansas doesn't have a history of buying up ROW more than a couple of years before construction, unless it's for the other 2 lanes of a Super-2.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 05:06:18 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 12:48:52 AM
I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they
If I cut your quote off here it sums up my opinion of this.
Oklahoma doesn't have a whole lot they need to do to make this an Interstate. The question is whether they will prioritize the upgrades, or will they be forever in year 8 of the 8-year plan?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on September 29, 2022, 07:03:51 PM
Post by: swake on September 29, 2022, 07:03:51 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 05:06:18 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 12:48:52 AM
I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they
If I cut your quote off here it sums up my opinion of this.
Oklahoma doesn't have a whole lot they need to do to make this an Interstate. The question is whether they will prioritize the upgrades, or will they be forever in year 8 of the 8-year plan?
Oklahoma could sign the section from I-35 to the I-44 split tomorrow.
The six mile section from I-44 to the Verdigris River is already being upgraded to limited access. New pavement is planned this stretch in 2026 with new interchanges at 265 W Ave (2027) and SH-412P(2028). The ROW to make this part of highway limited access is scheduled in 2028.
Then the next six miles from the Verdigris River to OK-88 are slated for ROW purchase in 2028 with a placeholder amount of money scheduled in 2029 for an interchange at Co Rd 4170. OK-88 already has a limited access exit for the town of Inola.
All those dates were set before Biden's infrastructure bill was passed.
That just leaves about a 13 mile stretch before you get to the turnpike. And in middle of that stretch is US-69 near the town of Chouteau, which also has an existing interchange.
I could easily see Oklahoma being done in the next ten years from I-35 to the end of the turnpike by Siloam Springs. The extension from the end of the turnpike today to the state line will likely have to wait on Arkansas.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 08:19:14 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 08:19:14 PM
Quote from: swake on September 29, 2022, 07:03:51 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 05:06:18 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 12:48:52 AM
I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they
If I cut your quote off here it sums up my opinion of this.
Oklahoma doesn't have a whole lot they need to do to make this an Interstate. The question is whether they will prioritize the upgrades, or will they be forever in year 8 of the 8-year plan?
Oklahoma could sign the section from I-35 to the I-44 split tomorrow.
Not true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate. Work also needs to be done on the Cimarron Turnpike itself to meet Interstate standards. The median around the Morrison interchange is still the original 1960s launch-you-into-space (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2987879,-96.9873298,3a,49.1y,8.35h,86.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIBLJ8gan7w33c1IJ3d6uQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) style, and while a good chunk of the rest of it has been upgraded to cable barrier (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3920051,-97.1579751,3a,43.6y,292.07h,86.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8KVLiUQySU6diMU808w8XQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D8KVLiUQySU6diMU808w8XQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.59613%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), I'm not sure if that meets modern Interstate standard or not.
Also, take the dates on the ODOT 8-year plan with a shaker of salt. It's pretty common for things to that appear on, say, year 5 of the 8-year plan to get pushed back a year when a new 8-year plan is published, leaving them forever 5 years away until someone gets sick of looking at them and finds the money to get them done. (Which isn't easy. We're not Texas, and our taxes have been slashed so close to the bone that it's kind of a miracle when Oklahoma actually has money to do anything.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on September 30, 2022, 03:38:51 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on September 30, 2022, 03:38:51 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 08:19:14 PMConsidering it was done on I-44 south of Lawton, I would imagine it suffices.
and while a good chunk of the rest of it has been upgraded to cable barrier (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3920051,-97.1579751,3a,43.6y,292.07h,86.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8KVLiUQySU6diMU808w8XQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D8KVLiUQySU6diMU808w8XQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.59613%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), I'm not sure if that meets modern Interstate standard or not.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 30, 2022, 04:52:05 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 30, 2022, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 30, 2022, 03:38:51 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 08:19:14 PMConsidering it was done on I-44 south of Lawton, I would imagine it suffices.
and while a good chunk of the rest of it has been upgraded to cable barrier (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3920051,-97.1579751,3a,43.6y,292.07h,86.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8KVLiUQySU6diMU808w8XQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D8KVLiUQySU6diMU808w8XQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.59613%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), I'm not sure if that meets modern Interstate standard or not.
It sufficed in 1982. Will it suffice today? That's the question I have. We know a lot more about highway safety than we did in 1982, and Interstate standards have gotten stricter since then.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on September 30, 2022, 04:57:25 PM
Post by: kphoger on September 30, 2022, 04:57:25 PM
Portions of I-44 had a cable barrier installed just a few years ago, but that was only as a replacement for the old LYIS-style median. "Better than terrible" does not equal "meets modern Interstate standard".
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 06:15:21 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 06:15:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 08:19:14 PMNot true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate.
Where is this? I was under the impression it was 100% grade-separated and in Google Maps I'm not seeing any flat intersections, though there are plenty of hook ramps between Sand Springs and the eastern end of the turnpike.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on September 30, 2022, 06:25:23 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on September 30, 2022, 06:25:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 30, 2022, 04:57:25 PMThat is true, but I wouldn't imagine they would restrict interstate designation for cable barrier. But I agree, concrete barrier is much more preferably from a safety standpoint.
Portions of I-44 had a cable barrier installed just a few years ago, but that was only as a replacement for the old LYIS-style median. "Better than terrible" does not equal "meets modern Interstate standard".
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: okroads on September 30, 2022, 06:38:38 PM
Post by: okroads on September 30, 2022, 06:38:38 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 06:15:21 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 08:19:14 PMNot true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate.
Where is this? I was under the impression it was 100% grade-separated and in Google Maps I'm not seeing any flat intersections, though there are plenty of hook ramps between Sand Springs and the eastern end of the turnpike.
At Diamond Head Drive just northwest of OK 151: https://goo.gl/maps/sqLik77GpoY8Hke18
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 06:46:08 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 06:46:08 PM
Quote from: okroads on September 30, 2022, 06:38:38 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 06:15:21 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 08:19:14 PMNot true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate.
Where is this? I was under the impression it was 100% grade-separated and in Google Maps I'm not seeing any flat intersections, though there are plenty of hook ramps between Sand Springs and the eastern end of the turnpike.
At Diamond Head Drive just northwest of OK 151: https://goo.gl/maps/sqLik77GpoY8Hke18
Many thanks! It was sort of fading out at high zoom levels.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 30, 2022, 07:57:19 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 30, 2022, 07:57:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 30, 2022, 04:57:25 PM
...the old LYIS-style median....
Not going to lie, I was hoping that term would catch on. :D
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on September 30, 2022, 09:24:14 PM
Post by: kphoger on September 30, 2022, 09:24:14 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 06:46:08 PMQuote from: okroads on September 30, 2022, 06:38:38 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 06:15:21 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2022, 08:19:14 PMNot true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate.
Where is this? I was under the impression it was 100% grade-separated and in Google Maps I'm not seeing any flat intersections, though there are plenty of hook ramps between Sand Springs and the eastern end of the turnpike.
At Diamond Head Drive just northwest of OK 151: https://goo.gl/maps/sqLik77GpoY8Hke18
Many thanks! It was sort of fading out at high zoom levels.
Yep, we've had this conversation before, although only briefly, and I don't know if you read it back then.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21261.msg2270215#msg2270215
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 30, 2022, 06:25:23 PMQuote from: kphoger on September 30, 2022, 04:57:25 PM
Portions of I-44 had a cable barrier installed just a few years ago, but that was only as a replacement for the old LYIS-style median. "Better than terrible" does not equal "meets modern Interstate standard".
That is true, but I wouldn't imagine they would restrict interstate designation for cable barrier. But I agree, concrete barrier is much more preferably from a safety standpoint.
With a concrete barrier, would there be enough of a left shoulder to meet modern Interstate standards, though?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 30, 2022, 09:27:46 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 30, 2022, 09:27:46 PM
What is the name of the guards they use in Germany in the medians of the autobahns? I wish Oklahoma would use those. I've really grown to dislike cable barriers although I'd prefer those over nothing.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 09:51:09 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on September 30, 2022, 09:51:09 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 30, 2022, 09:24:14 PM[Re. at-level crossing on Sand Springs Expressway]
Yep, we've had this conversation before, although only briefly, and I don't know if you read it back then.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21261.msg2270215#msg2270215
Thanks--I didn't see it at the time since I rarely go into Fictional Highways.
Quote from: kphoger on September 30, 2022, 09:24:14 PMWith a concrete barrier, would there be enough of a left shoulder to meet modern Interstate standards, though?
Yes. Minimum width for a left shoulder on an Interstate is 4 ft, and a Jersey barrier is nominally 2 ft wide. This means the Cimarron Turnpike needs a minimum of 10 ft between the left stripes on each carriageway. It generally has 15 ft or so.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 30, 2022, 09:27:46 PMWhat is the name of the guards they use in Germany in the medians of the autobahns? I wish Oklahoma would use those. I've really grown to dislike cable barriers although I'd prefer those over nothing.
There are a bunch of terms, with Schutzeinrichtungen ("safety devices") being an umbrella term that is used in advertisements for guardrail replacement contracts. (Outside the highway context, the same term is used for equipment guards, machine enclosures, and so on.) The Germans are a bit like us in that they don't use one single thing everywhere--they have local equivalents of Jersey barrier, thrie beam barrier, W-beam barrier, and so on.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 30, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 30, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
^^^ I prefer those because if you barely hit a cable barrier with your car you're done. There's no recovering. At least with a jersey or w beam barrier there's a chance it'll nudge you over and you can recover.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 30, 2022, 11:39:55 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 30, 2022, 11:39:55 PM
Quote from: sprjus4Considering it was done on I-44 south of Lawton, I would imagine it suffices.
It's a joke you're mentioning that stretch of I-44, right? The turnpike segments of I-44 from Medicine Park (north of Fort Sill) all the way to the Missouri border were given new concrete Jersey barriers in the mid 1990's. That was shortly after several people were killed in a high speed, head-on, multi-vehicle collision near Elgin. The rest of I-44 South of Lawton was neglected for nearly 20 years before they finally installed a cable barrier which runs half the cost of a traditional concrete Jersey barrier.
Prior to the median barriers collisions were easy. There was no inner left shoulder for the left lane; the grassy median went right to the edge of the travel lane. The median itself was a thin bump of grass no more than a car lane in width. If someone had a brain fart and over-corrected it would have been nothing to hop that median into oncoming traffic going 75mph+ the opposite direction.
Other fatality accidents have happened on that stretch of I-44 South of Lawton in from the late 1990's into the 2010's, but apparently not enough deaths have happened to force the OTA to move the time line up on any improvements. The Walters exit on I-44 is horribly degraded. I hate driving on the OK-5 bridge that goes over that ancient toll booth out of fear my vehicle will drop through the crumbing pavement. That whole damned interchange needs to be fully replaced but the OTA has been continually delaying any improvements or replacements of many years on end. They're basically giving a big middle finger to this part of the state.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on October 01, 2022, 02:51:54 AM
Post by: Road Hog on October 01, 2022, 02:51:54 AM
Most rural autobahns used POGRs when I was there in the 90s.
(Plain Old Guard Rails)
(Plain Old Guard Rails)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: DJStephens on October 02, 2022, 10:39:21 AM
Post by: DJStephens on October 02, 2022, 10:39:21 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 30, 2022, 11:39:55 PMQuote from: sprjus4Considering it was done on I-44 south of Lawton, I would imagine it suffices.
It's a joke you're mentioning that stretch of I-44, right? The turnpike segments of I-44 from Medicine Park (north of Fort Sill) all the way to the Missouri border were given new concrete Jersey barriers in the mid 1990's. That was shortly after several people were killed in a high speed, head-on, multi-vehicle collision near Elgin. The rest of I-44 South of Lawton was neglected for nearly 20 years before they finally installed a cable barrier which runs half the cost of a traditional concrete Jersey barrier.
Prior to the median barriers collisions were easy. There was no inner left shoulder for the left lane; the grassy median went right to the edge of the travel lane. The median itself was a thin bump of grass no more than a car lane in width. If someone had a brain fart and over-corrected it would have been nothing to hop that median into oncoming traffic going 75mph+ the opposite direction.
Other fatality accidents have happened on that stretch of I-44 South of Lawton in from the late 1990's into the 2010's, but apparently not enough deaths have happened to force the OTA to move the time line up on any improvements. The Walters exit on I-44 is horribly degraded. I hate driving on the OK-5 bridge that goes over that ancient toll booth out of fear my vehicle will drop through the crumbing pavement. That whole damned interchange needs to be fully replaced but the OTA has been continually delaying any improvements or replacements of many years on end. They're basically giving a big middle finger to this part of the state.
With all the toll revenue, one could figure that the entire stretch of I-44 could have been completely reconstructed by now. (Rogers / Turner / Bailey). By reconstructed, meaning six lanes, three on each side, built almost completely outside the current narrow four lane footprint. Vertical curvature improvements, deepen cuts, add to fills. Full outside and inside shoulders. Cable barrier outside inner shoulder. 100'-125' foot grassed median. New interchanges to reflect modern collection methods - EZ PASS etc.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on October 02, 2022, 10:50:29 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on October 02, 2022, 10:50:29 AM
Quote from: DJStephens on October 02, 2022, 10:39:21 AMAt that point, you're basically just building a new highway for all of the roadways. Not all of the routes need 6 lanes... granted a number of them do such as I-44 between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, and there's no need to add a 100 foot median. Proper median upgrades such as full paved shoulders and a concrete barrier is plenty sufficient and far cheaper and a better spending of limited dollars... yes it may be tolled, but that doesn't mean there's unlimited money.
With all the toll revenue, one could figure that the entire stretch of I-44 could have been completely reconstructed by now. (Rogers / Turner / Bailey). By reconstructed, meaning six lanes, three on each side, built almost completely outside the current narrow four lane footprint. Vertical curvature improvements, deepen cuts, add to fills. Full outside and inside shoulders. Cable barrier outside inner shoulder. 100'-125' foot grassed median. New interchanges to reflect modern collection methods - EZ PASS etc.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: DJStephens on October 02, 2022, 11:20:11 AM
Post by: DJStephens on October 02, 2022, 11:20:11 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on October 02, 2022, 10:50:29 AMQuote from: DJStephens on October 02, 2022, 10:39:21 AMAt that point, you're basically just building a new highway for all of the roadways. Not all of the routes need 6 lanes... granted a number of them do such as I-44 between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, and there's no need to add a 100 foot median. Proper median upgrades such as full paved shoulders and a concrete barrier is plenty sufficient and far cheaper and a better spending of limited dollars... yes it may be tolled, but that doesn't mean there's unlimited money.
With all the toll revenue, one could figure that the entire stretch of I-44 could have been completely reconstructed by now. (Rogers / Turner / Bailey). By reconstructed, meaning six lanes, three on each side, built almost completely outside the current narrow four lane footprint. Vertical curvature improvements, deepen cuts, add to fills. Full outside and inside shoulders. Cable barrier outside inner shoulder. 100'-125' foot grassed median. New interchanges to reflect modern collection methods - EZ PASS etc.
The facility (I-44) is ancient. Authorized and largely constructed before the 1956 Federal Interstate creation. Adheres to then used methodology of narrow footprint, excessive vertical curvature and other deficiencies. Yes some of them have been "fixed", mainly installation of CBR in the narrow median in the nineties. By observation, outside of OKC and Tulsa, there is significant ROW in many places, to construct new mainlines to the outside. This process could, and should have started in the eighties.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 01:26:12 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 01:26:12 PM
With both its turnpikes and gasoline tax funded roads Oklahoma just seems to try to do as little as possible. Improvements, such as those concrete Jersey barriers on I-44, seem to be more reactions to disaster than doing anything to prevent problems. The Access Oklahoma plan is one of the few times I've seen an attempt to do something proactive. Of course the plan is meeting up with lots of resistance.
I think it's telling where improvements are taking place and where they're not happening at all. There's obviously some favoritism to Tulsa with the Turner Turnpike 3x3 widening project starting on the Tulsa end and slowly working its way back toward OKC.
ODOT and OTA have their hands tied with a problem created over the long term by the state's lawmakers. They've set the policy of trying to do everything on the cheap. Lawmakers have done absolutely nothing to refute the common, ill-informed beliefs of Oklahomans about the roads. The big one is "the turnpikes are paid for, so remove the toll gates." I don't even know why so many people here cling to that belief, because it's pretty stupid when you think about it just a little bit. "The turnpike is paid for" assumes that a highway is permanent, that once it's built nothing has to be done to the facility ever again. Maintenance for wear and tear? Design Improvements? Capacity Improvements? What are those? Most home owners understand they'll have to replace the roof once every 20-30 years (or after a bad hail storm). They ignore the issue of upkeep when it comes to those turnpikes.
There has been a bunch of heartburn in the public about the OTA's Pay By Plate fees on turnpikes that have gone cashless. The rates are almost double the PikePass rate. OTA reps have told the press a lot of extra work goes into a Pay By Plate setup. I think even if a Pay By Plate setup was easy to operate OTA should still charge a hefty fee for it. It's an incentive for procrastinators to stop dragging their feet and get a friggin' PikePass already.
With Oklahoma's history of keeping gasoline taxes at minimum levels I warn friends of mine who hate the turnpike tollgates. I tell them don't be surprised if you start seeing toll tag readers get installed on regular highways and street corners everywhere. Gasoline tax rates aren't keeping up with construction cost inflation. The only thing that might help in the short term is sky high gasoline prices are forcing people to drive less.
I think it's telling where improvements are taking place and where they're not happening at all. There's obviously some favoritism to Tulsa with the Turner Turnpike 3x3 widening project starting on the Tulsa end and slowly working its way back toward OKC.
ODOT and OTA have their hands tied with a problem created over the long term by the state's lawmakers. They've set the policy of trying to do everything on the cheap. Lawmakers have done absolutely nothing to refute the common, ill-informed beliefs of Oklahomans about the roads. The big one is "the turnpikes are paid for, so remove the toll gates." I don't even know why so many people here cling to that belief, because it's pretty stupid when you think about it just a little bit. "The turnpike is paid for" assumes that a highway is permanent, that once it's built nothing has to be done to the facility ever again. Maintenance for wear and tear? Design Improvements? Capacity Improvements? What are those? Most home owners understand they'll have to replace the roof once every 20-30 years (or after a bad hail storm). They ignore the issue of upkeep when it comes to those turnpikes.
There has been a bunch of heartburn in the public about the OTA's Pay By Plate fees on turnpikes that have gone cashless. The rates are almost double the PikePass rate. OTA reps have told the press a lot of extra work goes into a Pay By Plate setup. I think even if a Pay By Plate setup was easy to operate OTA should still charge a hefty fee for it. It's an incentive for procrastinators to stop dragging their feet and get a friggin' PikePass already.
With Oklahoma's history of keeping gasoline taxes at minimum levels I warn friends of mine who hate the turnpike tollgates. I tell them don't be surprised if you start seeing toll tag readers get installed on regular highways and street corners everywhere. Gasoline tax rates aren't keeping up with construction cost inflation. The only thing that might help in the short term is sky high gasoline prices are forcing people to drive less.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US71 on October 02, 2022, 01:39:41 PM
Post by: US71 on October 02, 2022, 01:39:41 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 27, 2022, 06:47:07 PMQuote from: rte66man on September 27, 2022, 06:41:44 PM
Bugo, I should have known you would still have the bumper sticker!
I don't actually have the bumper sticker. I found this image on the internet about 10 or 15 years ago, and I saved it. I did think about getting a T shirt like this printed, though.
Cafe Press :)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: vdeane on October 02, 2022, 03:58:24 PM
Post by: vdeane on October 02, 2022, 03:58:24 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 01:26:12 PMWhat about people who are from out of the area? I'm not sure if or when PikePass will be interoperable with further away transponders like E-ZPass, and then there are those from states without toll roads that wouldn't have regular need for a transponder.
I think even if a Pay By Plate setup was easy to operate OTA should still charge a hefty fee for it. It's an incentive for procrastinators to stop dragging their feet and get a friggin' PikePass already.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2022, 05:00:14 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2022, 05:00:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 02, 2022, 03:58:24 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 01:26:12 PMWhat about people who are from out of the area? I'm not sure if or when PikePass will be interoperable with further away transponders like E-ZPass, and then there are those from states without toll roads that wouldn't have regular need for a transponder.
I think even if a Pay By Plate setup was easy to operate OTA should still charge a hefty fee for it. It's an incentive for procrastinators to stop dragging their feet and get a friggin' PikePass already.
Oklahoma doesn't even care about the people who live here, what makes you think they'd care about people who don't?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 08:06:13 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 08:06:13 PM
Quote from: vdeaneWhat about people who are from out of the area?
Every toll road agency outside Oklahoma charges quite a lot more for pay by plate billing than their RFID tag price. Why should Oklahoma be held to a different standard?
OTA's PikePass is interoperable with all Texas toll road tag systems now as well as Kansas' KTAG system. Motorists could get any one of those tags and be covered across Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas. It's very easy to get a PikePass tag. I don't know if it's any easier or harder to get a similar tag in Texas or Kansas.
It's also fairly common for people who drive long distance frequently to have more than one RFID tag in their vehicle, be a sales guy driving a car or a trucker driving a semi.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 02, 2022, 08:34:19 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 02, 2022, 08:34:19 PM
OTA really needs to get on the ball with the interoperability. Texas, Colorado, and Kansas are cool but they need to make it nationwide.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 08:47:34 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 08:47:34 PM
The people who run the other RFID tag systems, such as EZ Pass, need to contribute just as much effort on nationwide interoperability. Oklahoma shouldn't have to shoulder all of the burden.
Technically all these different toll road systems should have had interoperable tags nationwide several years ago to comply with federal legislation passed a decade ago.
Technically all these different toll road systems should have had interoperable tags nationwide several years ago to comply with federal legislation passed a decade ago.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: vdeane on October 02, 2022, 09:13:24 PM
Post by: vdeane on October 02, 2022, 09:13:24 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 08:06:13 PMWell, you specifically said to incentivize getting PikePass, and I don't think someone from far away taking a one-off trip to a roadmeet or something is going to get PikePass no matter how high the toll gets.Quote from: vdeaneWhat about people who are from out of the area?
Every toll road agency outside Oklahoma charges quite a lot more for pay by plate billing than their RFID tag price. Why should Oklahoma be held to a different standard?
OTA's PikePass is interoperable with all Texas toll road tag systems now as well as Kansas' KTAG system. Motorists could get any one of those tags and be covered across Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas. It's very easy to get a PikePass tag. I don't know if it's any easier or harder to get a similar tag in Texas or Kansas.
It's also fairly common for people who drive long distance frequently to have more than one RFID tag in their vehicle, be a sales guy driving a car or a trucker driving a semi.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 02, 2022, 09:23:35 PM
Post by: swake on October 02, 2022, 09:23:35 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 01:26:12 PM
I think it's telling where improvements are taking place and where they're not happening at all. There's obviously some favoritism to Tulsa with the Turner Turnpike 3x3 widening project starting on the Tulsa end and slowly working its way back toward OKC.eeping up with construction cost inflation. The only thing that might help in the short term is sky high gasoline prices are forcing people to drive less.
Or maybe the reason is the Tulsa end of the turnpike carries more traffic?
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/Turner%20ADT%202021.pdf
If you want to know why the turnpike south of Lawton doesn't have the greatest maintenance? Also due to traffic counts:
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/H.E.Bailey%20ADT%202021.pdf
The favoritism you claim Tulsa is getting with new Turnpike work would actually be in the OKC area. This turnpike had no business even being constructed:
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/Kickapoo%20ADT%202021.pdf
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on October 02, 2022, 09:28:57 PM
Post by: edwaleni on October 02, 2022, 09:28:57 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 08:47:34 PM
The people who run the other RFID tag systems, such as EZ Pass, need to contribute just as much effort on nationwide interoperability. Oklahoma shouldn't have to shoulder all of the burden.
Technically all these different toll road systems should have had interoperable tags nationwide several years ago to comply with federal legislation passed a decade ago.
Fortunately I know someone who works in a toll authority and has some level of understanding of how these interactions work.
- First off some states are all about sovereignty. The right to drive and own a vehicle is a state affair, they do not want other states collecting info/data on their drivers.
- Second, the data exchange rates for the states that do cooperate are not all the same. Some states want exorbitant fees to get DMV data from out of state requestors.
- Third, some states have laws that require a legal action take place before a DMV can be compelled to release plate/registration data. That is why some states let the violations pile up until it meets a minimum legal standard (ie: $500)
- Fourth, each state has different laws about data retention. Once they export DMV data to another state, they no longer have jurisdiction over that data unless the exchanging state has an agreement to purge it at their levels.
Some states do not have the time or resources to want to manage a typical traffic stop and have a flag on the officers display saying the driver has an unpaid toll in Texas. In Pennsylvania, they would say that is a civil issue in the State of Texas. However, in Illinois...if you rack up more than $500 in unpaid tolls with an out of state plate, it does go to the States Attorney office and the DMV data is acquired, they will post a violation for a misdemeanor and send a court demand. If you don't show, they will notify the state of the plate that there is an outstanding warrant.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2022, 10:49:03 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2022, 10:49:03 PM
I'm pretty sure at this point the only way to break the interoperability logjam is if FHWA starts their own toll tag and Congress mandates that all toll highways accept it.
In practical terms, I don't really feel like I miss out on much not having EZPass interop on my PikePass. I barely use it in KS or TX as it is, and if I were to do extensive traveling in EZPassland, chances are I would be in a rental and not my own car anyway.
In practical terms, I don't really feel like I miss out on much not having EZPass interop on my PikePass. I barely use it in KS or TX as it is, and if I were to do extensive traveling in EZPassland, chances are I would be in a rental and not my own car anyway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 03, 2022, 11:48:51 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 03, 2022, 11:48:51 AM
Quote from: swakeIf you want to know why the turnpike south of Lawton doesn't have the greatest maintenance? Also due to traffic counts:
Traffic counts DO NOT give OTA or ODOT any excuse for ignoring basic safety issues in Southwest Oklahoma for decades, particularly that stretch of I-44 going from Lawton to the Red River.
Also, my charge of favoritism for Tulsa still stands. Why didn't they start the 3x3 widening project on the OKC end of the Turner Turnpike. Far more people live in the OKC metro than Tulsa. OKC is a more important highway hub than Tulsa.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on October 03, 2022, 06:09:14 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on October 03, 2022, 06:09:14 PM
^ "Highway hub" and population is not a factor... it's the traffic volumes on a given facility.
Quote from: swake on October 02, 2022, 09:23:35 PMQuote from: Bobby5280 on October 02, 2022, 01:26:12 PM
I think it's telling where improvements are taking place and where they're not happening at all. There's obviously some favoritism to Tulsa with the Turner Turnpike 3x3 widening project starting on the Tulsa end and slowly working its way back toward OKC.eeping up with construction cost inflation. The only thing that might help in the short term is sky high gasoline prices are forcing people to drive less.
Or maybe the reason is the Tulsa end of the turnpike carries more traffic?
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/Turner%20ADT%202021.pdf
If you want to know why the turnpike south of Lawton doesn't have the greatest maintenance? Also due to traffic counts:
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/H.E.Bailey%20ADT%202021.pdf
The favoritism you claim Tulsa is getting with new Turnpike work would actually be in the OKC area. This turnpike had no business even being constructed:
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/Kickapoo%20ADT%202021.pdf
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 06:38:55 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 06:38:55 PM
Stitt being from Tulsa doesn't hurt either.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 03, 2022, 07:05:35 PM
Post by: swake on October 03, 2022, 07:05:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 06:38:55 PM
Stitt being from Tulsa doesn't hurt either.
Except that he wasn't governor when the Driving Forward plan was developed. Oklahoma City's Mary Fallin was. Driving forward had a total of 5 new miles of turnpikes in the Tulsa area (less than a mile actually in Tulsa) compared to 28 miles in the Oklahoma City area.
Access Oklahoma under Stitt is even more unbalanced. It also has just 5 miles of new turnpikes for the Tulsa area compared to 55 new miles for Oklahoma City.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 07:11:16 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 07:11:16 PM
Mary Fallin is from Tecumseh, not Oklahoma City. (They happen to share a Congressional district so she was often denoted as "R-Oklahoma City" while in Congress, but her policies tended to skew toward favoring the rural parts of the state.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 03, 2022, 07:14:45 PM
Post by: swake on October 03, 2022, 07:14:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 07:11:16 PM
Mary Fallin is from Tecumseh, not Oklahoma City. (They happen to share a Congressional district so she was often denoted as "R-Oklahoma City" while in Congress, but her policies tended to skew toward favoring the rural parts of the state.)
And Stitt is actually from Jenks. As is Joy Hoffmeister who is running against him.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 07:16:32 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 07:16:32 PM
Jenks is a suburb of Tulsa. Tecumseh is not a suburb of anything–it's a good thirty minute drive through the woods from Norman.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 03, 2022, 07:23:13 PM
Post by: swake on October 03, 2022, 07:23:13 PM
Ok, back to topic.
On the new 8-Year plan it looks like Oklahoma is planning to have US-412 from I-35 to Siloam Springs upgraded to interstate standards very quickly. Over $100 million in work is on the schedule by 2029 and it looks like that may well be everything excluding any turnpike work and whatever is done around Siloam Springs.
West of Tulsa:
Diamond Head Drive by Lake Keystone:
2026 $400k - ROW and Utilities
2029 $10 million — Interchange
East of Tulsa
2024 I-44/US-412/OK-66 Interchange - $30 million
2024 I-44 to Verdigris River pavement rehab - $23.3 million
2024 US-412P New bridges and exit - $13.9 million
2024 Co Rd 4170 New bridges and exit - $11.7 million
2028 Verdigris River to OK-88 ROW - $750k
2029 Co Rd 4190 New bridges and exit - $10 million
2029 OK-88 to Cherokee Turnpike ROW - $750k
2029 Co Rd 4240 New bridges and exit - $10 million
On the new 8-Year plan it looks like Oklahoma is planning to have US-412 from I-35 to Siloam Springs upgraded to interstate standards very quickly. Over $100 million in work is on the schedule by 2029 and it looks like that may well be everything excluding any turnpike work and whatever is done around Siloam Springs.
West of Tulsa:
Diamond Head Drive by Lake Keystone:
2026 $400k - ROW and Utilities
2029 $10 million — Interchange
East of Tulsa
2024 I-44/US-412/OK-66 Interchange - $30 million
2024 I-44 to Verdigris River pavement rehab - $23.3 million
2024 US-412P New bridges and exit - $13.9 million
2024 Co Rd 4170 New bridges and exit - $11.7 million
2028 Verdigris River to OK-88 ROW - $750k
2029 Co Rd 4190 New bridges and exit - $10 million
2029 OK-88 to Cherokee Turnpike ROW - $750k
2029 Co Rd 4240 New bridges and exit - $10 million
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
^^^ that bullshit came at the expense of further neglecting one of the busiest interchanges in the state. What a joke.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 07:43:09 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 07:43:09 PM
"schedule"
Plenty of stuff that was in the pipeline for 2023 on the last 8-year plan now shows 2025. "2029" on the 8-year plan just means they might get around to it before Star Trek takes place.
I'll believe it when the cones come out.
Plenty of stuff that was in the pipeline for 2023 on the last 8-year plan now shows 2025. "2029" on the 8-year plan just means they might get around to it before Star Trek takes place.
I'll believe it when the cones come out.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:59:02 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:59:02 PM
I just don't get it. There's record investment from the feds in infrastructure and the state of Oklahoma is posting record revenue. I understand there's inflation going on but this is ridiculous. I really thought we were going to get a nice treat with his new 8 year plan. But this one is worse than the last.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 03, 2022, 09:00:26 PM
Post by: bugo on October 03, 2022, 09:00:26 PM
Actually Kevin Shitt was born in Florida and grew up in Norman. He graduated from NHS. He's your guy. We don't claim him.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 09:11:19 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 09:11:19 PM
Quote from: bugo on October 03, 2022, 09:00:26 PMKevin Stitt claims to reppin Tulsa so
Actually Kevin Shitt was born in Florida and grew up in Norman. He graduated from NHS. He's your guy. We don't claim him.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 03, 2022, 09:25:18 PM
Post by: swake on October 03, 2022, 09:25:18 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 09:11:19 PMQuote from: bugo on October 03, 2022, 09:00:26 PMKevin Stitt claims to reppin Tulsa so
Actually Kevin Shitt was born in Florida and grew up in Norman. He graduated from NHS. He's your guy. We don't claim him.
Stitt cares nothing for Tulsa or for anything not named Stitt.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 09:44:06 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 03, 2022, 09:44:06 PM
Quote from: bugo on October 03, 2022, 09:00:26 PM
Actually Kevin Shitt was born in Florida and grew up in Norman. He graduated from NHS. He's your guy. We don't claim him.
There's been a good deal of consternation in the OKC area about why all of these big business projects he's been trying and failing to land have been directed to the Tulsa, and never the OKC area. But I suppose it doesn't really matter much if none of the projects ever happen. But really...
Quote from: swake on October 03, 2022, 09:25:18 PM
Stitt cares nothing for Tulsa or for anything not named Stitt.
...is probably closest to the truth.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: J N Winkler on October 03, 2022, 11:46:55 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on October 03, 2022, 11:46:55 PM
Stitt is a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, so I wonder if that is why people think he has Tulsa ties. (The Osage/Cherokee/Creek tripoint is basically the northwest corner of the Inner Distributor Loop.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 04, 2022, 12:57:34 AM
Post by: swake on October 04, 2022, 12:57:34 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 03, 2022, 11:46:55 PM
Stitt is a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, so I wonder if that is why people think he has Tulsa ties. (The Osage/Cherokee/Creek tripoint is basically the northwest corner of the Inner Distributor Loop.)
He's a fake Cherokee:
https://www.hcn.org/articles/indigenous-affairs-the-cherokee-nation-once-fought-to-disenroll-gov-kevin-stitts-ancestors
And it's the Inner Dispersal Loop. Just call it the IDL :sombrero:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on October 04, 2022, 11:47:11 AM
Post by: rte66man on October 04, 2022, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 03, 2022, 11:46:55 PM
Stitt is a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, so I wonder if that is why people think he has Tulsa ties. (The Osage/Cherokee/Creek tripoint is basically the northwest corner of the Inner Distributor Loop.)
Isn't Gateway Mortgage based in Broken Arrow?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 04, 2022, 12:35:13 PM
Post by: swake on October 04, 2022, 12:35:13 PM
Quote from: rte66man on October 04, 2022, 11:47:11 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on October 03, 2022, 11:46:55 PM
Stitt is a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, so I wonder if that is why people think he has Tulsa ties. (The Osage/Cherokee/Creek tripoint is basically the northwest corner of the Inner Distributor Loop.)
Isn't Gateway Mortgage based in Broken Arrow?
Jenks
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: splashflash on October 18, 2022, 11:30:32 PM
Post by: splashflash on October 18, 2022, 11:30:32 PM
US-412 bridge over Verdigris River demolished in one BANG
The $13.8 million bridge replacement project began Sept. 6 on US-412 in Rogers County, according to ODOT.
ODOT says work is expected to be done in late 2023.
https://www.fox23.com/news/highway-412-bridge-over-verdigris-river-demolished-one-bang/BZCASX4GOVHR7AMV4WUGD3JYWY/
The $13.8 million bridge replacement project began Sept. 6 on US-412 in Rogers County, according to ODOT.
ODOT says work is expected to be done in late 2023.
https://www.fox23.com/news/highway-412-bridge-over-verdigris-river-demolished-one-bang/BZCASX4GOVHR7AMV4WUGD3JYWY/
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 19, 2022, 08:22:12 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 19, 2022, 08:22:12 AM
Quote from: splashflash on October 18, 2022, 11:30:32 PM
US-412 bridge over Verdigris River demolished in one BANG
The $13.8 million bridge replacement project began Sept. 6 on US-412 in Rogers County, according to ODOT.
ODOT says work is expected to be done in late 2023.
https://www.fox23.com/news/highway-412-bridge-over-verdigris-river-demolished-one-bang/BZCASX4GOVHR7AMV4WUGD3JYWY/
Will be a sizable chunk of the work that needs to happen on the OK side, but don't see anything in the above 8 year plan to deal with the Neosho/Grand River crossing and exits for 4340/412B. I wonder if the plan is to continue the Cherokee Turnpike westward from where it bends back north to tie back into old US-412 and construct a new Neosho/Grand River crossing to the south of the current one and keep the current in place for local/old US-412 access.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on October 19, 2022, 08:30:26 PM
Post by: edwaleni on October 19, 2022, 08:30:26 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
^^^ that bullshit came at the expense of further neglecting one of the busiest interchanges in the state. What a joke.
Help me out, which one got neglected?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 19, 2022, 08:37:49 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 19, 2022, 08:37:49 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on October 19, 2022, 08:30:26 PMI-35/I-240 interchange.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
^^^ that bullshit came at the expense of further neglecting one of the busiest interchanges in the state. What a joke.
Help me out, which one got neglected?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on October 20, 2022, 07:27:44 PM
Post by: edwaleni on October 20, 2022, 07:27:44 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 19, 2022, 08:37:49 PMQuote from: edwaleni on October 19, 2022, 08:30:26 PMI-35/I-240 interchange.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
^^^ that bullshit came at the expense of further neglecting one of the busiest interchanges in the state. What a joke.
Help me out, which one got neglected?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on October 28, 2022, 07:09:38 AM
Post by: rte66man on October 28, 2022, 07:09:38 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on October 20, 2022, 07:27:44 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on October 19, 2022, 08:37:49 PMQuote from: edwaleni on October 19, 2022, 08:30:26 PMI-35/I-240 interchange.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
^^^ that bullshit came at the expense of further neglecting one of the busiest interchanges in the state. What a joke.
Help me out, which one got neglected?
Thanks.
I see almost $100 million scheduled for FFY2025 for that interchange. Add in what has already been done and what is scheduled for this year and that is a good chunk of change. How is that neglect? I agree its not as fast as I would prefer but it isn't neglect.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 28, 2022, 07:09:26 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 28, 2022, 07:09:26 PM
With the way ODOT (and the OK state government) has been doing things, I'd be surprised if the I-240/I-35 interchange is completed before 2030.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 29, 2022, 09:02:48 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 29, 2022, 09:02:48 AM
Quote from: rte66man on October 28, 2022, 07:09:38 AMI don't know how to further explain myself. This interchange should have been finished 10 years ago. They keep kicking the can down the road. To me that's neglect.Quote from: edwaleni on October 20, 2022, 07:27:44 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on October 19, 2022, 08:37:49 PMQuote from: edwaleni on October 19, 2022, 08:30:26 PMI-35/I-240 interchange.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
^^^ that bullshit came at the expense of further neglecting one of the busiest interchanges in the state. What a joke.
Help me out, which one got neglected?
Thanks.
I see almost $100 million scheduled for FFY2025 for that interchange. Add in what has already been done and what is scheduled for this year and that is a good chunk of change. How is that neglect? I agree its not as fast as I would prefer but it isn't neglect.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on October 31, 2022, 08:00:08 PM
Post by: edwaleni on October 31, 2022, 08:00:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 29, 2022, 09:02:48 AMQuote from: rte66man on October 28, 2022, 07:09:38 AMI don't know how to further explain myself. This interchange should have been finished 10 years ago. They keep kicking the can down the road. To me that's neglect.Quote from: edwaleni on October 20, 2022, 07:27:44 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on October 19, 2022, 08:37:49 PMQuote from: edwaleni on October 19, 2022, 08:30:26 PMI-35/I-240 interchange.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
^^^ that bullshit came at the expense of further neglecting one of the busiest interchanges in the state. What a joke.
Help me out, which one got neglected?
Thanks.
I see almost $100 million scheduled for FFY2025 for that interchange. Add in what has already been done and what is scheduled for this year and that is a good chunk of change. How is that neglect? I agree its not as fast as I would prefer but it isn't neglect.
Looks like they want to build a flyover.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 31, 2022, 08:55:55 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 31, 2022, 08:55:55 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on October 31, 2022, 08:00:08 PMTwo flyovers and two cloverleafs with a managed C/D system. Basically a near copy of the I-235/I-44 interchange.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 29, 2022, 09:02:48 AMQuote from: rte66man on October 28, 2022, 07:09:38 AMI don't know how to further explain myself. This interchange should have been finished 10 years ago. They keep kicking the can down the road. To me that's neglect.Quote from: edwaleni on October 20, 2022, 07:27:44 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on October 19, 2022, 08:37:49 PMQuote from: edwaleni on October 19, 2022, 08:30:26 PMI-35/I-240 interchange.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
^^^ that bullshit came at the expense of further neglecting one of the busiest interchanges in the state. What a joke.
Help me out, which one got neglected?
Thanks.
I see almost $100 million scheduled for FFY2025 for that interchange. Add in what has already been done and what is scheduled for this year and that is a good chunk of change. How is that neglect? I agree its not as fast as I would prefer but it isn't neglect.
Looks like they want to build a flyover.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 01, 2022, 08:38:46 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 01, 2022, 08:38:46 AM
Are there any plans at all to address the west end of the Cherokee Turnpike and the Neosho/Grand River crossing? That looks like it will require either another bridge altogether, or a complete rebuild with interchange for the industrial park on the west side of the river. Nothing in any of the plans listed above seems to have anything about it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on November 01, 2022, 05:32:30 PM
Post by: swake on November 01, 2022, 05:32:30 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on November 01, 2022, 08:38:46 AM
Are there any plans at all to address the west end of the Cherokee Turnpike and the Neosho/Grand River crossing? That looks like it will require either another bridge altogether, or a complete rebuild with interchange for the industrial park on the west side of the river. Nothing in any of the plans listed above seems to have anything about it.
There's $1.5 million for bridge rehab in 2023 and $500,000 for intersection modification in 2024. That doesn't look like enough money unless they are just removing access. The main access to the industrial park is on US-69 not US-412.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 02, 2022, 10:48:35 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on November 02, 2022, 10:48:35 PM
The US-412 bridge over the Neosho River looks like it can just get under the radar as far as Interstate standards go. The right shoulders on the bridge are certainly big enough. The inner left shoulders measure 4-5 feet width. I have a feeling the higher ups might let that slide. They don't need a full lane width on the inner left shoulder.
The immediate intersection on the West side of the river (OK-412B) may have to be grade separated with no exit ramps at all. There's no room. I can see ODOT building a new 2-lane access road parallel to US-412 over to the N4335/US-412 intersection where there is more space for a standard diamond shaped exit. Really they may have to build at least one 2-lane parallel access road from OK-412B out to the US-69 interchange, if not just build a pair of flanking frontage roads. Or they could do a mix of both to minimize property takings. Still, I see no reason to replace that Neosho River bridge.
The immediate intersection on the West side of the river (OK-412B) may have to be grade separated with no exit ramps at all. There's no room. I can see ODOT building a new 2-lane access road parallel to US-412 over to the N4335/US-412 intersection where there is more space for a standard diamond shaped exit. Really they may have to build at least one 2-lane parallel access road from OK-412B out to the US-69 interchange, if not just build a pair of flanking frontage roads. Or they could do a mix of both to minimize property takings. Still, I see no reason to replace that Neosho River bridge.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 03, 2022, 07:27:43 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 03, 2022, 07:27:43 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 02, 2022, 10:48:35 PM
The US-412 bridge over the Neosho River looks like it can just get under the radar as far as Interstate standards go. The right shoulders on the bridge are certainly big enough. The inner left shoulders measure 4-5 feet width. I have a feeling the higher ups might let that slide. They don't need a full lane width on the inner left shoulder.
The immediate intersection on the West side of the river (OK-412B) may have to be grade separated with no exit ramps at all. There's no room. I can see ODOT building a new 2-lane access road parallel to US-412 over to the N4335/US-412 intersection where there is more space for a standard diamond shaped exit. Really they may have to build at least one 2-lane parallel access road from OK-412B out to the US-69 interchange, if not just build a pair of flanking frontage roads. Or they could do a mix of both to minimize property takings. Still, I see no reason to replace that Neosho River bridge.
They should still address both ends of the Cherokee Turnpike so that it doesn't reduce speeds so far and stripe both carriageways for 2 lanes each to continue onto US-412. Alt-412 should be nothing more than a standard exit on both ends of the turnpike with a standard entrance ramp. May need some geometry changes to facilitate maintaining standard expressway speeds.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on January 19, 2023, 06:07:55 PM
Post by: swake on January 19, 2023, 06:07:55 PM
Here is Oklahoma's grant application to upgrade US-412 to an Interstate highway between I-44 and the Cherokee Turnpike. it's a $140 million project to add 8 interchanges, 6 additional bridges and repaving.
Design work is underway with general construction to take place starting in 2025 and ending in 2028.
https://oklahoma.gov/odot/progress-and-performance/federal-grant-awards/mpdg-grants/mpdg-2022/us-412_priority_improvements_for_interstate_designation.html
Design work is underway with general construction to take place starting in 2025 and ending in 2028.
https://oklahoma.gov/odot/progress-and-performance/federal-grant-awards/mpdg-grants/mpdg-2022/us-412_priority_improvements_for_interstate_designation.html
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 07:55:49 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 07:55:49 PM
The map prominently including Congressional district boundaries is a good tell for who the target audience is.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: splashflash on March 23, 2023, 07:49:43 AM
Post by: splashflash on March 23, 2023, 07:49:43 AM
Cable barrier coming::
https://www.fox23.com/news/32-miles-of-cable-barriers-to-be-installed-along-the-cherokee-turnpike/article_c89210e6-be96-11ed-9a3e-cf2767f99056.html
https://www.fox23.com/news/32-miles-of-cable-barriers-to-be-installed-along-the-cherokee-turnpike/article_c89210e6-be96-11ed-9a3e-cf2767f99056.html
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on March 23, 2023, 01:19:11 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on March 23, 2023, 01:19:11 PM
The fact they had an 80 mph freeway with a 40 foot median with zero barrier to begin with is crazy...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 23, 2023, 02:00:55 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 23, 2023, 02:00:55 PM
Obviously they were gambling, seeing if they could procrastinate as long as possible without a grisly head-on collision happening in the meantime.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 09, 2023, 03:40:09 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 09, 2023, 03:40:09 PM
Open house with a survey on June 6th
- https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20230606.html
QuoteDescription
The Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT) and the Arkansas Department of Transportation (ARDOT) are initiating a Planning and Environmental Linkages (PEL) Study of U.S. 412. The study is being performed in coordination with the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority (OTA) and Federal Highway Administration (FHWA). The PEL Study limits are from I-35 in Noble County, Oklahoma to I-49 in Benton County, Arkansas, a distance of 190 miles. The overarching goal is to develop a master plan to support the transition from a U.S. Highway to an interstate, in accordance with the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act (IIJA).
ODOT and ARDOT anticipate incorporating recommendations made as part of the PEL Study into future National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) studies, per Title 23 of the U.S. Code, Part 168.
- https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20230606.html
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: BigOkie on May 09, 2023, 06:15:27 PM
Post by: BigOkie on May 09, 2023, 06:15:27 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 09, 2023, 03:40:09 PM
Open house with a survey on June 6thQuoteDescription
The Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT) and the Arkansas Department of Transportation (ARDOT) are initiating a Planning and Environmental Linkages (PEL) Study of U.S. 412. The study is being performed in coordination with the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority (OTA) and Federal Highway Administration (FHWA). The PEL Study limits are from I-35 in Noble County, Oklahoma to I-49 in Benton County, Arkansas, a distance of 190 miles. The overarching goal is to develop a master plan to support the transition from a U.S. Highway to an interstate, in accordance with the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act (IIJA).
ODOT and ARDOT anticipate incorporating recommendations made as part of the PEL Study into future National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) studies, per Title 23 of the U.S. Code, Part 168.
- https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20230606.html
Hmm...I might have to attend that.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 09, 2023, 07:02:39 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 09, 2023, 07:02:39 PM
I suppose it is too soon for them make a decision on what number the US 412 corridor will get. Hopefully, it will be decided within 5 to 10 years.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 09, 2023, 11:14:40 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 09, 2023, 11:14:40 PM
Interstate 412!
:bigass:
:bigass:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 10, 2023, 12:35:44 PM
Post by: edwaleni on May 10, 2023, 12:35:44 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 09, 2023, 07:02:39 PM
I suppose it is too soon for them make a decision on what number the US 412 corridor will get. Hopefully, it will be decided within 5 to 10 years.
Didn't another thread get in trouble for trying to publicly predict the i-name for a highway not built?
I think the mod interceded and asked everyone to halt.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on May 10, 2023, 02:34:10 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on May 10, 2023, 02:34:10 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 10, 2023, 12:35:44 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on May 09, 2023, 07:02:39 PM
I suppose it is too soon for them make a decision on what number the US 412 corridor will get. Hopefully, it will be decided within 5 to 10 years.
Didn't another thread get in trouble for trying to publicly predict the i-name for a highway not built?
I think the mod interceded and asked everyone to halt.
Can't make me change my avatar, though!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on May 10, 2023, 02:35:28 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on May 10, 2023, 02:35:28 PM
Quote from: BigOkie on May 09, 2023, 06:15:27 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on May 09, 2023, 03:40:09 PM
Open house with a survey on June 6thQuoteDescription
The Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT) and the Arkansas Department of Transportation (ARDOT) are initiating a Planning and Environmental Linkages (PEL) Study of U.S. 412. The study is being performed in coordination with the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority (OTA) and Federal Highway Administration (FHWA). The PEL Study limits are from I-35 in Noble County, Oklahoma to I-49 in Benton County, Arkansas, a distance of 190 miles. The overarching goal is to develop a master plan to support the transition from a U.S. Highway to an interstate, in accordance with the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act (IIJA).
ODOT and ARDOT anticipate incorporating recommendations made as part of the PEL Study into future National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) studies, per Title 23 of the U.S. Code, Part 168.
- https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20230606.html
Hmm...I might have to attend that.
Wonder if they'll have one in Arkansas as well.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 10, 2023, 02:46:48 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 10, 2023, 02:46:48 PM
^^^ at some point they'll have to as that will be the most expensive and challenging section to build.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on May 10, 2023, 07:03:07 PM
Post by: bugo on May 10, 2023, 07:03:07 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 10, 2023, 12:35:44 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on May 09, 2023, 07:02:39 PM
I suppose it is too soon for them make a decision on what number the US 412 corridor will get. Hopefully, it will be decided within 5 to 10 years.
Didn't another thread get in trouble for trying to publicly predict the i-name for a highway not built?
I think the mod interceded and asked everyone to halt.
Well that's fucking stupid. Aaroads has a reputation for over moderation that extends past the road community. There's a reason forums are dying (partially replaced by Facebook groups for the time being). Too many power hungry moderators.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on May 10, 2023, 10:36:05 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 10, 2023, 10:36:05 PM
I have no memory of that happening, but if it was something I did, I'd be happy to comment on my thought process if given a link.
(Good luck getting Facebook staff to do that...)
(Good luck getting Facebook staff to do that...)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rothman on May 10, 2023, 11:14:50 PM
Post by: Rothman on May 10, 2023, 11:14:50 PM
Quote from: bugo on May 10, 2023, 07:03:07 PMQuote from: edwaleni on May 10, 2023, 12:35:44 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on May 09, 2023, 07:02:39 PM
I suppose it is too soon for them make a decision on what number the US 412 corridor will get. Hopefully, it will be decided within 5 to 10 years.
Didn't another thread get in trouble for trying to publicly predict the i-name for a highway not built?
I think the mod interceded and asked everyone to halt.
Well that's fucking stupid. Aaroads has a reputation for over moderation that extends past the road community. There's a reason forums are dying (partially replaced by Facebook groups for the time being). Too many power hungry moderators.
Given how long you've complained about this, I find your perception exaggerated and your implication that this forum will die to be unfounded.
Despite all this kind of hyperbole, AARoads trods on.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 11, 2023, 11:15:24 AM
Post by: edwaleni on May 11, 2023, 11:15:24 AM
It was over in one of the threads in Texas about some road in or around Corpus Christi I believe,
Since no one, TxDOT, ASHTO, FHA had any documentation on what the i-name of the road might/should be, the mod said the discussion should be moved to fictional.
The mods position (if I remember) was that these were just documents for feasibilities and public feedback. No funding or direction had been defined therefore any naming was wholesale speculation.
Since no one, TxDOT, ASHTO, FHA had any documentation on what the i-name of the road might/should be, the mod said the discussion should be moved to fictional.
The mods position (if I remember) was that these were just documents for feasibilities and public feedback. No funding or direction had been defined therefore any naming was wholesale speculation.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: triplemultiplex on May 11, 2023, 03:17:46 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on May 11, 2023, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: bugo on May 10, 2023, 07:03:07 PM
Well that's fucking stupid. Aaroads has a reputation for over moderation that extends past the road community. There's a reason forums are dying (partially replaced by Facebook groups for the time being). Too many power hungry moderators.
A forum like AARoads won't mine your private data to sell shit, though. So they are better for society.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: SectorZ on May 11, 2023, 03:22:25 PM
Post by: SectorZ on May 11, 2023, 03:22:25 PM
Quote from: bugo on May 10, 2023, 07:03:07 PM
Aaroads has a reputation for over moderation that extends past the road community
I would argue that AA Roads has no reputation for anything outside of the road community.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 (Arkansas)
Post by: splashflash on May 21, 2023, 11:04:18 AM
Post by: splashflash on May 21, 2023, 11:04:18 AM
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2023/may/21/input-sought-on-fiture-interstate-designation-for/?appnews
SILOAM SPRINGS -- The Arkansas Department of Transportation is working jointly with the Oklahoma Department of Transportation to conduct a study of U.S. 412 between Interstate 35 in Oklahoma and Interstate 49 in Arkansas.
The study is part of congressionally mandated legislation to convert U.S. 412 into an interstate highway.
An in-person, public meeting will be held 4-7 p.m. June 8 at John Brown University Simmons Great Hall, at 2000 W. University St. in Siloam Springs.
The U.S. 412 Planning and Environmental Linkages Study website will be available June 7 at www.ardot.gov/publicmeetings.
SILOAM SPRINGS -- The Arkansas Department of Transportation is working jointly with the Oklahoma Department of Transportation to conduct a study of U.S. 412 between Interstate 35 in Oklahoma and Interstate 49 in Arkansas.
The study is part of congressionally mandated legislation to convert U.S. 412 into an interstate highway.
An in-person, public meeting will be held 4-7 p.m. June 8 at John Brown University Simmons Great Hall, at 2000 W. University St. in Siloam Springs.
The U.S. 412 Planning and Environmental Linkages Study website will be available June 7 at www.ardot.gov/publicmeetings.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on May 22, 2023, 08:35:11 AM
Post by: intelati49 on May 22, 2023, 08:35:11 AM
Hey, I can actually make it..
Anyone have documents for the eastern stretch ,
(Springdale to US65 or beyond?)
SM-G715U1
Anyone have documents for the eastern stretch ,
(Springdale to US65 or beyond?)
SM-G715U1
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: msunat97 on May 22, 2023, 10:41:57 AM
Post by: msunat97 on May 22, 2023, 10:41:57 AM
Here's a link to the Arkansas Highway Department site project page https://www.ardot.gov/divisions/environmental/assessments/impact-statements-eis-assesments-ea/springdale-northern-bypass-highway-412/ (https://www.ardot.gov/divisions/environmental/assessments/impact-statements-eis-assesments-ea/springdale-northern-bypass-highway-412/)
Hopefully the link works
Hopefully the link works
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 22, 2023, 11:10:28 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 22, 2023, 11:10:28 AM
US 412 will probably permanently remain in its existing configuration east of the proposed eastern terminus of the Springdale North Bypass, so we can toss any ideas of upgrades east of there to Fictional Highways.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on May 22, 2023, 11:20:54 AM
Post by: intelati49 on May 22, 2023, 11:20:54 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 22, 2023, 11:10:28 AMMy idea was the stretch that was upgraded to a four lane expressway. I haven't ever seen the study documents with the recommendations
US 412 will probably permanently remain in its existing configuration east of the proposed eastern terminus of the Springdale North Bypass, so we can toss any ideas of upgrades east of there to Fictional Highways.
Edit: Here's a later study. (post improvements) https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 23, 2023, 05:30:31 PM
Post by: edwaleni on May 23, 2023, 05:30:31 PM
Quote from: intelati49 on May 22, 2023, 11:20:54 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on May 22, 2023, 11:10:28 AMMy idea was the stretch that was upgraded to a four lane expressway. I haven't ever seen the study documents with the recommendations
US 412 will probably permanently remain in its existing configuration east of the proposed eastern terminus of the Springdale North Bypass, so we can toss any ideas of upgrades east of there to Fictional Highways.
Edit: Here's a later study. (post improvements) https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf
US-412 to the east does not come close to meeting any 4 lane improvements based on that study. Inadequate traffic. Remember studies sometime tell authorities more what NOT to do.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on May 23, 2023, 05:40:34 PM
Post by: intelati49 on May 23, 2023, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2023, 05:30:31 PMQuote from: intelati49 on May 22, 2023, 11:20:54 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on May 22, 2023, 11:10:28 AMMy idea was the stretch that was upgraded to a four lane expressway. I haven't ever seen the study documents with the recommendations
US 412 will probably permanently remain in its existing configuration east of the proposed eastern terminus of the Springdale North Bypass, so we can toss any ideas of upgrades east of there to Fictional Highways.
Edit: Here's a later study. (post improvements) https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf
US-412 to the east does not come close to meeting any 4 lane improvements based on that study. Inadequate traffic. Remember studies sometime tell authorities more what NOT to do.
I had thought the study area overlapped with the area of interest for the public meeting. I wanted to get a 201# view of the traffic to compare/contrast the needs
Pixel 7a
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on May 25, 2023, 08:37:32 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on May 25, 2023, 08:37:32 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2023, 05:30:31 PMQuote from: intelati49 on May 22, 2023, 11:20:54 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on May 22, 2023, 11:10:28 AMMy idea was the stretch that was upgraded to a four lane expressway. I haven't ever seen the study documents with the recommendations
US 412 will probably permanently remain in its existing configuration east of the proposed eastern terminus of the Springdale North Bypass, so we can toss any ideas of upgrades east of there to Fictional Highways.
Edit: Here's a later study. (post improvements) https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf
US-412 to the east does not come close to meeting any 4 lane improvements based on that study. Inadequate traffic. Remember studies sometime tell authorities more what NOT to do.
It doesn't currently meet the traffic counts in many folks mind based on numbers alone. However, those that live in the region know that this is simply due to geometry and lack of lanes in the current facility, not due to lack of activity in the area itself. I travel from NWA to Jonesboro at least twice a year for work at branch of a firm, and I take this road despite the fact that it isn't the quickest way currently between the two locations, in fact it is 30 minutes longer of a trip. However, it is 40 miles shorter, more scenic, much fewer trucks currently, and far less ASP patrolling than the I-49/I-40/US-64/US-67 route nearly to Little Rock that Google Maps routes you as the quickest way. Just the addition of 2 passing lanes in each direction on US-412 east of Mtn. Home over the past 8 years has trimmed 5-10 minutes off the previous time, and with the projects in the current STIP, should trim another 5 minutes off the trip minimum. What would be the biggest difference-maker would be a northern bypass of Harrison to eliminate the slog through that congested mess. Once that happens, despite the fact that there is technically a complete limited access route currently between Springdale and Jonesboro that everyone currently uses, but despises, there will be a notable uptick in traffic on US-412 between the 2 fastest growing regions of the state, even with 2 lanes segments remaining and being routed through the gut of every town other than Huntsville, Harrison, and Mtn. Home.
Sometimes the numbers don't tell the whole tale. Drive both routes and you'll see what I mean. I'm not suggesting interstate all the way across the northern counties of Arkansas, but 4 lane divided is and should be the goal east of I-49.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 25, 2023, 11:37:20 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 25, 2023, 11:37:20 AM
Are there any additional bypasses of US 412 planned east of Springdale, like the existing bypasses of Mountain Home and Paragould?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on May 25, 2023, 02:23:22 PM
Post by: edwaleni on May 25, 2023, 02:23:22 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 25, 2023, 08:37:32 AMQuote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2023, 05:30:31 PMQuote from: intelati49 on May 22, 2023, 11:20:54 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on May 22, 2023, 11:10:28 AMMy idea was the stretch that was upgraded to a four lane expressway. I haven't ever seen the study documents with the recommendations
US 412 will probably permanently remain in its existing configuration east of the proposed eastern terminus of the Springdale North Bypass, so we can toss any ideas of upgrades east of there to Fictional Highways.
Edit: Here's a later study. (post improvements) https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf
US-412 to the east does not come close to meeting any 4 lane improvements based on that study. Inadequate traffic. Remember studies sometime tell authorities more what NOT to do.
It doesn't currently meet the traffic counts in many folks mind based on numbers alone. However, those that live in the region know that this is simply due to geometry and lack of lanes in the current facility, not due to lack of activity in the area itself. I travel from NWA to Jonesboro at least twice a year for work at branch of a firm, and I take this road despite the fact that it isn't the quickest way currently between the two locations, in fact it is 30 minutes longer of a trip. However, it is 40 miles shorter, more scenic, much fewer trucks currently, and far less ASP patrolling than the I-49/I-40/US-64/US-67 route nearly to Little Rock that Google Maps routes you as the quickest way. Just the addition of 2 passing lanes in each direction on US-412 east of Mtn. Home over the past 8 years has trimmed 5-10 minutes off the previous time, and with the projects in the current STIP, should trim another 5 minutes off the trip minimum. What would be the biggest difference-maker would be a northern bypass of Harrison to eliminate the slog through that congested mess. Once that happens, despite the fact that there is technically a complete limited access route currently between Springdale and Jonesboro that everyone currently uses, but despises, there will be a notable uptick in traffic on US-412 between the 2 fastest growing regions of the state, even with 2 lanes segments remaining and being routed through the gut of every town other than Huntsville, Harrison, and Mtn. Home.
Sometimes the numbers don't tell the whole tale. Drive both routes and you'll see what I mean. I'm not suggesting interstate all the way across the northern counties of Arkansas, but 4 lane divided is and should be the goal east of I-49.
Don't disagree, at least on road geometry, especially around Imboden. From even a 2 lane perspective, its a troublesome route. Boat and RV traffic around Harrison and Mountain Home easily justify themselves.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on May 27, 2023, 08:53:28 PM
Post by: swake on May 27, 2023, 08:53:28 PM
ODOT is conducting a public meeting on 6/6 in downtown Tulsa on the 412 upgrade.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/community/sand-springs/public-hearing-planned-on-converting-u-s-412-to-interstate-highway/article_63c2e646-fcc0-11ed-8301-5f36c1abc3b1.html
Project docs will be posted here on 6/7:
http://odot.org/US412interstateDesignationStudy
https://tulsaworld.com/news/community/sand-springs/public-hearing-planned-on-converting-u-s-412-to-interstate-highway/article_63c2e646-fcc0-11ed-8301-5f36c1abc3b1.html
Project docs will be posted here on 6/7:
http://odot.org/US412interstateDesignationStudy
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 03:21:36 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 03:21:36 PM
Reminder: public meeting is today at 4:30 in Tulsa:
Cyntergy Community Space, 1st Floor
810 S. Cincinnati Avenue
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74119
https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20230606.html (https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20230606.html)
Cyntergy Community Space, 1st Floor
810 S. Cincinnati Avenue
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74119
https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20230606.html (https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20230606.html)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: debaterthatchases on June 06, 2023, 06:59:47 PM
Post by: debaterthatchases on June 06, 2023, 06:59:47 PM
Update: A fair share of NIMBY's showed up but I got to talk to Randle White, the ODOT District 8 Engineer about the Upgrades. I was told that the New BGS sign citing Springdale as a control city was a fluke, and that wasn't really that intentional. Also expect an upgrade to the US69 interchange, as he said the current interchange will most likely not meet new traffic requirements. (He said redesign, so maybe we get Flyovers?) Overall, this will be a fairly easy upgrade from ODOT's end, with the only trouble spots being the Flint Creek area and West Siloam Springs. I was also told that the redesigned interchange at US-412 and US-69 will have a future I-45 extension in mind. I'll add later if I remember anything else as the meeting lasts until 6:30p tonight.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 07:20:33 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 07:20:33 PM
That's exciting to hear about I-45.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 07:33:47 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 07:33:47 PM
They will also have a few other inner changes in the Tulsa area to reconstruct as well, which won't be cheap, but sorely needed. Examples include SH-11(is that part of the Gilcrease loop?) and the interchange at Sheridan Rd.
They will also likely have to address the segment through Greenwood and come up with a long term plan which would be great if they could tunnel it but at minimum something will need to be done to address that issue. So it seems like the segment through Tulsa will have some issues to work out but should be fairly simple as long as they can get the money.
They will also likely have to address the segment through Greenwood and come up with a long term plan which would be great if they could tunnel it but at minimum something will need to be done to address that issue. So it seems like the segment through Tulsa will have some issues to work out but should be fairly simple as long as they can get the money.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: debaterthatchases on June 06, 2023, 07:48:04 PM
Post by: debaterthatchases on June 06, 2023, 07:48:04 PM
I'm under the impression that any Tulsa area changes minus removing At grade interchanges and the addition of a left shoulder between the NW leg of the IDL and the Adams Rd exit in Sand Springs are on the back burner and aren't required for this project since both of the problem areas are still Interstate Standard (I-244 designation currently)
Also to answer your question SH11 is part of the Gilcrease Expwy. Also the random line item for the LL Tisdale Expwy being stated as SH11 was a mistake according to Randle and there are no current plans to realign SH11.
Also to answer your question SH11 is part of the Gilcrease Expwy. Also the random line item for the LL Tisdale Expwy being stated as SH11 was a mistake according to Randle and there are no current plans to realign SH11.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 06, 2023, 10:06:22 PM
Post by: bugo on June 06, 2023, 10:06:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 07:33:47 PM
They will also likely have to address the segment through Greenwood and come up with a long term plan which would be great if they could tunnel it but at minimum something will need to be done to address that issue. So it seems like the segment through Tulsa will have some issues to work out but should be fairly simple as long as they can get the money.
There's nothing to address. The neighborhood isn't there anymore. That ship sailed 50 years ago. This is a bunch of nothing.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 06, 2023, 10:11:46 PM
Post by: bugo on June 06, 2023, 10:11:46 PM
I-244 is not built to modern Interstate standards.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 10:38:26 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 10:38:26 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 06, 2023, 10:06:22 PMI disagree. It's an urban stretch of interstate that needs to be redesign. The better fit the needs of the neighborhood it replaced even if it isn't there anymore. You can't just destroy a neighborhood and then say hey, there's no concern valid because the neighborhood we destroyed isn't there anymore. That's ridiculous.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 07:33:47 PM
They will also likely have to address the segment through Greenwood and come up with a long term plan which would be great if they could tunnel it but at minimum something will need to be done to address that issue. So it seems like the segment through Tulsa will have some issues to work out but should be fairly simple as long as they can get the money.
There's nothing to address. The neighborhood isn't there anymore. That ship sailed 50 years ago. This is a bunch of nothing.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 07, 2023, 10:49:09 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 07, 2023, 10:49:09 AM
What would you do to redesign Interstate 244 to modern-design standards, Plutonic Panda?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 07, 2023, 11:06:19 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 07, 2023, 11:06:19 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 07, 2023, 10:49:09 AMI mean apart from some of the interchanges I mentioned it seems like much of I-244 already is up to par for the most part just a few key areas need to be improved namely the segment through Greenwood. If not a tunnel then a depressed freeway with a park cap would suffice. Otherwise it looks like ODOT is already planning on addressing existing issues like the deficient interchange at OK-66.
What would you do to redesign Interstate 244 to modern-design standards, Plutonic Panda?
The only reason I really think a plan should be in place for the section of the interstate would be to help spur development and put to bed any ridiculous talk of a Freeway removal.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on June 07, 2023, 12:16:28 PM
Post by: swake on June 07, 2023, 12:16:28 PM
The project documents say they will apply to AASHTO for interstate designation this fall.
And in Oklahoma you have a better chance of the state requiring CRT education for all students than for the north leg of the IDL to be removed.
And in Oklahoma you have a better chance of the state requiring CRT education for all students than for the north leg of the IDL to be removed.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2023, 01:42:54 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2023, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: debaterthatchasesAlso expect an upgrade to the US69 interchange, as he said the current interchange will most likely not meet new traffic requirements. (He said redesign, so maybe we get Flyovers?) Overall, this will be a fairly easy upgrade from ODOT's end, with the only trouble spots being the Flint Creek area and West Siloam Springs. I was also told that the redesigned interchange at US-412 and US-69 will have a future I-45 extension in mind.
I'm all for upgrading US-69 to Interstate standards from the Red River up to Big Cabin & I-44. But the existing US-69/US-412 interchange is in a bad spot for a possible I-45 extension. There is too much development immediately to the North of the interchange along US-69 going up thru Chouteau. A new-terrain bypass around Chouteau, including a new US-69/US-412 interchange, will be necessary.
Quote from: swakeAnd in Oklahoma you have a better chance of the state requiring CRT education for all students than for the north leg of the IDL to be removed.
The South and East sides of the IDL were re-built recently. So they're not getting torn out any time soon. And I see zero practical way at all for I-244 to be removed on the West and North sides of the IDL.
That spot isn't Rochester, NY. That location happens to be a pretty significant highway junction. Downtown Tulsa just happens to be in the middle of it. There are serious generators of vehicle traffic inside the IDL (BOK Center, ONE OK Field, Cains Ballroom, Cox Convention Center, OK State Univ Med Center, various hotels, the arts district, etc). Converting the super highways that converge on downtown Tulsa into at-grade boulevards with lots of traffic lights would be extremely stupid. The new urbanists have fantasies that people like me would visit Tulsa by driving up to the outskirts, parking clear out in Sapulpa and then taking a light rail train the rest of the way into downtown. No. If it's that much of a pain in the ass to visit I won't come there at all.
As I've said before, these new urbanist types don't practice what they preach. These policy makers will tell all us ordinary folks we need to take mass transit. After their speech their private car service takes them wherever they need to go. Hypocrites. There is no glamour in riding a city bus. A bus system is about all a small to mid-size city can afford. There are plenty of downsides to riding subways or light rail trains too.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 07, 2023, 01:49:39 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 07, 2023, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2023, 01:42:54 PMFor that area, I could see them using the existing interchange, then veering to the west on new alignment north of the interchange area, and still bypassing the town.
I'm all for upgrading US-69 to Interstate standards from the Red River up to Big Cabin & I-44. But the existing US-69/US-412 interchange is in a bad spot for a possible I-45 extension. There is too much development immediately to the North of the interchange along US-69 going up thru Chouteau. A new-terrain bypass around Chouteau, including a new US-69/US-412 interchange, will be necessary.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: debaterthatchases on June 07, 2023, 03:55:18 PM
Post by: debaterthatchases on June 07, 2023, 03:55:18 PM
As far as I know, the I-45 extension would only be up to 412, hence the interchange redesign. A future extension up to I-44 might be in the cards, but as another said there isn't much development north of Pryor requiring an interstate. The big challenge of the Muskogee bypass has several solutions, but the one ODOT is considering is upgrading OK-165 to Freeway standards and a US-69/OK-351 interchange redesign, effectively using Peak Blvd/Muskogee Turnpike as the bypass.There isn't much Muskogee residents could do to stop a bypass using existing ROW.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 07, 2023, 04:20:05 PM
Post by: bugo on June 07, 2023, 04:20:05 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 10:38:26 PMQuote from: bugo on June 06, 2023, 10:06:22 PMI disagree. It's an urban stretch of interstate that needs to be redesign. The better fit the needs of the neighborhood it replaced even if it isn't there anymore. You can't just destroy a neighborhood and then say hey, there's no concern valid because the neighborhood we destroyed isn't there anymore. That's ridiculous.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 07:33:47 PM
They will also likely have to address the segment through Greenwood and come up with a long term plan which would be great if they could tunnel it but at minimum something will need to be done to address that issue. So it seems like the segment through Tulsa will have some issues to work out but should be fairly simple as long as they can get the money.
There's nothing to address. The neighborhood isn't there anymore. That ship sailed 50 years ago. This is a bunch of nothing.
Trying to "reconnect" something that hasn't existed in two generations is much more ridiculous. There's literally one church and a college north of the highway. I don't think the folks who live in the gentrified apartments at Greenwood and Archer are going to be walking to an African American church, and if they did, the underpass is wide open and lit up at night.
Your suggestion is about as ridiculous as saying that they should build a tunnel through Sideling Hill, even though the roadcut has been there for decades. The hill is no longer there, so you wouldn't be preserving or reconnecting anything, because what was once there is gone forever.
Have you ever been to this part of Tulsa?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 07, 2023, 04:58:23 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 07, 2023, 04:58:23 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 07, 2023, 04:20:05 PMI've been to it but I only drove through it on the interstate. I've seen pictures. It really is more about spurring development than reconnecting the neighborhood that isn't there anymore.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 10:38:26 PMQuote from: bugo on June 06, 2023, 10:06:22 PMI disagree. It's an urban stretch of interstate that needs to be redesign. The better fit the needs of the neighborhood it replaced even if it isn't there anymore. You can't just destroy a neighborhood and then say hey, there's no concern valid because the neighborhood we destroyed isn't there anymore. That's ridiculous.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 07:33:47 PM
They will also likely have to address the segment through Greenwood and come up with a long term plan which would be great if they could tunnel it but at minimum something will need to be done to address that issue. So it seems like the segment through Tulsa will have some issues to work out but should be fairly simple as long as they can get the money.
There's nothing to address. The neighborhood isn't there anymore. That ship sailed 50 years ago. This is a bunch of nothing.
Trying to "reconnect" something that hasn't existed in two generations is much more ridiculous. There's literally one church and a college north of the highway. I don't think the folks who live in the gentrified apartments at Greenwood and Archer are going to be walking to an African American church, and if they did, the underpass is wide open and lit up at night.
Your suggestion is about as ridiculous as saying that they should build a tunnel through Sideling Hill, even though the roadcut has been there for decades. The hill is no longer there, so you wouldn't be preserving or reconnecting anything, because what was once there is gone forever.
Have you ever been to this part of Tulsa?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 07, 2023, 05:53:53 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 07, 2023, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: debaterthatchases on June 07, 2023, 03:55:18 PMAn interstate terminating at US-412 would not make any sense, given the majority of freight traffic on US-69 is destined to I-44 East.
As far as I know, the I-45 extension would only be up to 412, hence the interchange redesign. A future extension up to I-44 might be in the cards, but as another said there isn't much development north of Pryor requiring an interstate.
You still need bypasses / upgrades of Chouteau, Pryor, Adair, and Big Cabin plus any traffic signals removed, to create just simply a free-flowing route without controlled access in the rural areas north of US-412. Until it's a free-flowing expressway at minimum up to I-44, the need to upgrade those areas will still exist regardless of I-45 or not.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on June 07, 2023, 09:11:50 PM
Post by: swake on June 07, 2023, 09:11:50 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 07, 2023, 05:53:53 PMQuote from: debaterthatchases on June 07, 2023, 03:55:18 PMAn interstate terminating at US-412 would not make any sense, given the majority of freight traffic on US-69 is destined to I-44 East.
As far as I know, the I-45 extension would only be up to 412, hence the interchange redesign. A future extension up to I-44 might be in the cards, but as another said there isn't much development north of Pryor requiring an interstate.
You still need bypasses / upgrades of Chouteau, Pryor, Adair, and Big Cabin plus any traffic signals removed, to create just simply a free-flowing route without controlled access in the rural areas north of US-412. Until it's a free-flowing expressway at minimum up to I-44, the need to upgrade those areas will still exist regardless of I-45 or not.
That's a lot of bypasses on that route and those towns do not want the highway upgraded. That's why it would make more sense to route I-45 to Tulsa on the Indian Nations Turpike north of McAlester and onto US-75.
US-75 south of Tulsa also needs to be upgraded, but those upgrades are going to happen anyway. The Glenpool section has ROW and Utility moves on ODOTs 8 year plan.The section between Okmulgee and Glenpool doesn't have that many at grade crossings and the and an interchange is being built now at the busiest crossing.
The hard part will be a bypass around Okmulgee but that simply has to be done. All those truck traveling between Tulsa and Dallas right through the heart of Okmulgee increases Dallas/Tulsa travel time by least 30 minutes and is simply not safe. There are currently nine stop lights on US-75 in Okmulgee.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2023, 11:42:57 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2023, 11:42:57 PM
Quote from: sprjus4For that area, I could see them using the existing interchange, then veering to the west on new alignment north of the interchange area, and still bypassing the town.
They couldn't just re-build the US-69/US-412 interchange as a run of the mill cloverleaf. But a cloverleaf seems likely given ODOT's habits. There would be serious merging conflict issues if there was a cloverleaf interchange and then a "Y" interchange within a close distance of each other. ODOT would have to design a more creative solution to veer the US-69 main lanes at an angle thru the interchange to bend traffic flow into the direction of a new bypass.
Quote from: debatethatchasesAs far as I know, the I-45 extension would only be up to 412, hence the interchange redesign.
It would be a wasted effort if an extension of I-45 into Oklahoma ended unceremoniously at US-412. I could imagine a phase of an I-45 extension ending there for a certain amount of time.
The enormous amount of heavy truck traffic coming up from the DFW area is not going to hang a left or right on US-412. It's going to keep heading North to Big Cabin just like it's doing right now.
Quote from: swakeThat's a lot of bypasses on that route and those towns do not want the highway upgraded. That's why it would make more sense to route I-45 to Tulsa on the Indian Nations Turnpike north of McAlester and onto US-75.
ODOT does not have to build bypasses within the city limits of any towns along US-69. Considering the pretty crooked bend US-69 takes going into the South side of Muskogee it would be pretty easy for ODOT to build a new terrain freeway bypass West of Muskogee and not put traffic way out of its way. Wagoner would be even easier to bypass to the West.
Then there is the safety aspect. It's not exactly a good thing to have lots of semi trucks pounding down the main surface street in a town. Then there's all the noise from trucks as well as the wear and tear on local streets. Most towns outside of the OKC and Tulsa areas are slowly losing population. A new Interstate might help spur at least some economic development and reverse some of the exodus.
Upgrading US-75 from McAlester to Tulsa to Interstate standards would be a good idea. But doing so would not be any easier than upgrading US-69. It might even be more difficult. As you mentioned, Okmulgee is a serious obstacle. Henrietta is a bit tricky too. Between Okmulgee and Glenpool US-75 has quite a few properties encroaching too close to the highway to incorporate frontage roads and/or exit ramps.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 08, 2023, 11:32:16 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 08, 2023, 11:32:16 AM
I know I've said this before but there aren't any official plans to extend Interstate 45 northward into Oklahoma (although if there was, I would support doing so). The only evidence I've seen of an official Interstate 45 extension is a section of ISTEA (1991) indicating that US 69 would become an Interstate once it was upgraded to Interstate Standards: https://www.interstate-guide.com/i-045/. Over 30 years later, sufficient portions of US 69 still need to be upgraded to even get a future Interstate to reach Interstate 40, let alone get a future Interstate to US 412.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on June 08, 2023, 02:34:32 PM
Post by: swake on June 08, 2023, 02:34:32 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2023, 11:42:57 PMQuote from: sprjus4For that area, I could see them using the existing interchange, then veering to the west on new alignment north of the interchange area, and still bypassing the town.
They couldn't just re-build the US-69/US-412 interchange as a run of the mill cloverleaf. But a cloverleaf seems likely given ODOT's habits. There would be serious merging conflict issues if there was a cloverleaf interchange and then a "Y" interchange within a close distance of each other. ODOT would have to design a more creative solution to veer the US-69 main lanes at an angle thru the interchange to bend traffic flow into the direction of a new bypass.Quote from: debatethatchasesAs far as I know, the I-45 extension would only be up to 412, hence the interchange redesign.
It would be a wasted effort if an extension of I-45 into Oklahoma ended unceremoniously at US-412. I could imagine a phase of an I-45 extension ending there for a certain amount of time.
The enormous amount of heavy truck traffic coming up from the DFW area is not going to hang a left or right on US-412. It's going to keep heading North to Big Cabin just like it's doing right now.Quote from: swakeThat's a lot of bypasses on that route and those towns do not want the highway upgraded. That's why it would make more sense to route I-45 to Tulsa on the Indian Nations Turnpike north of McAlester and onto US-75.
ODOT does not have to build bypasses within the city limits of any towns along US-69. Considering the pretty crooked bend US-69 takes going into the South side of Muskogee it would be pretty easy for ODOT to build a new terrain freeway bypass West of Muskogee and not put traffic way out of its way. Wagoner would be even easier to bypass to the West.
Then there is the safety aspect. It's not exactly a good thing to have lots of semi trucks pounding down the main surface street in a town. Then there's all the noise from trucks as well as the wear and tear on local streets. Most towns outside of the OKC and Tulsa areas are slowly losing population. A new Interstate might help spur at least some economic development and reverse some of the exodus.
Upgrading US-75 from McAlester to Tulsa to Interstate standards would be a good idea. But doing so would not be any easier than upgrading US-69. It might even be more difficult. As you mentioned, Okmulgee is a serious obstacle. Henrietta is a bit tricky too. Between Okmulgee and Glenpool US-75 has quite a few properties encroaching too close to the highway to incorporate frontage roads and/or exit ramps.
I agree that US-69 should be improved and that those towns should not have all that truck traffic running through the centers of those towns, that was my point with Okmulgee, which is larger than those towns on US-69 north of Muskogee.
My point about the US-75 route over US-69 is that the US-75 improvements are going to happen no matter what and when US-75 south of Tulsa is improved it will pull traffic from US-69 as an easier way to get to I-44. That said, the no growth thing doesn't apply to the US-69 corridor either.
Muskogee is losing people and I don't see that changing, but Wagoner, Chouteau and Pryor? Wagoner and Inola are seeing suburban growth now. Pryor and Inola are about to explode in population and will likely take Chouteau with them.
MidAmerica industrial park in Pryor already has a number of big business including Google's largest data center. Panasonic is bringing 4,000 new job there soon and Canoo if it survives the electric car wars might bring a few thousand more. The Tulsa Port of Inola recently opened a big plant for Sofidel and just announced 1,000 new jobs for Enel making solar panels. Those are just the big projects coming and there are big plans to expand both industrial parks, especially the one in Inola since it has a port and is closer to Tulsa.
That's going to add 6-7,000 new jobs at least in the next 3-4 years to Inola and Pryor.
Maybe all the growth will force the state to upgrade US-69 eventually, but both industrial parks are also adjacent to US-412, which is where the state is putting money into upgrades now. The idea is that this future interstate US-412 between Tulsa and NW Arkansas will be a green industry corridor linking both metros.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 08, 2023, 08:00:10 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 08, 2023, 08:00:10 PM
Back on the topic of US-412 upgrading to Interstate status.
Went to the ARDOT Public Involvement meeting in Siloam Springs, chatted up the firm from KC doing the study, and met intelati49 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2496) face to face, which was nice, particularly since he lives the next town over from me. Don't know if Oklahoma's meeting consisted of the same materials, but here are the links to the PEL materials we saw and commented on:
Notice of Public Meeting
U.S. 412 Planning and Environmental Linkages (PEL) Study (https://ardot-public-notice-hwy-412-pel-study-2023-ardot.hub.arcgis.com/)
Public Involvement Meeting Notice (https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/Hwy412PELInvite.pdf)
Project Fact Sheet - Spring 2023 (https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/US-412_Factsheet_11x17_2023-05-16.pdf)
Planning and Environmental Linkages Study on U.S. 412 from I-35 in Oklahoma to I-49 Arkansas Info Signup (https://www.vpioutreach.com/public/event-registration/search?project_id=14807&pe_guid=71fefbf3-9327-4b27-b13c-7a31107ee074)
U.S. 412 PEL Public Survey No.1 (https://survey123.arcgis.com/share/78c2e129c05948a3975068c53a3504bb)
U.S. 412 Planning and Environmental Linkages Study Public Meeting #1 Slides (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b71bcf1f1fab422baa6dc11acbac3051)
Went to the ARDOT Public Involvement meeting in Siloam Springs, chatted up the firm from KC doing the study, and met intelati49 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2496) face to face, which was nice, particularly since he lives the next town over from me. Don't know if Oklahoma's meeting consisted of the same materials, but here are the links to the PEL materials we saw and commented on:
Notice of Public Meeting
U.S. 412 Planning and Environmental Linkages (PEL) Study (https://ardot-public-notice-hwy-412-pel-study-2023-ardot.hub.arcgis.com/)
Public Involvement Meeting Notice (https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/Hwy412PELInvite.pdf)
Project Fact Sheet - Spring 2023 (https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/US-412_Factsheet_11x17_2023-05-16.pdf)
Planning and Environmental Linkages Study on U.S. 412 from I-35 in Oklahoma to I-49 Arkansas Info Signup (https://www.vpioutreach.com/public/event-registration/search?project_id=14807&pe_guid=71fefbf3-9327-4b27-b13c-7a31107ee074)
U.S. 412 PEL Public Survey No.1 (https://survey123.arcgis.com/share/78c2e129c05948a3975068c53a3504bb)
U.S. 412 Planning and Environmental Linkages Study Public Meeting #1 Slides (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b71bcf1f1fab422baa6dc11acbac3051)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on June 08, 2023, 08:00:18 PM
Post by: intelati49 on June 08, 2023, 08:00:18 PM
Not to say it was worthless, I got to put a face and a voice to MikieT ;). But I do wish there were more lines/corridors on the map.
I'll try to write up the high notes for each section, but the biggest thing is deciding on the Siloam Springs Bypass Route. That stretch is most likely the only bit of "new" construction vs conversion of expressways.
I'll try to write up the high notes for each section, but the biggest thing is deciding on the Siloam Springs Bypass Route. That stretch is most likely the only bit of "new" construction vs conversion of expressways.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 08, 2023, 08:11:48 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 08, 2023, 08:11:48 PM
Quote from: intelati49 on June 08, 2023, 08:00:18 PM
Not to say it was worthless, I got to put a face and a voice to MikieT ;). But I do wish there were more lines/corridors on the map.
I'll try to write up the high notes for each section, but the biggest thing is deciding on the Siloam Springs Bypass Route. That stretch is most likely the only bit of "new" construction vs conversion of expressways.
Somehow beat you posting by 8 seconds! Mainly they were soliciting comments for how to figure out how to route around Siloam Springs obviously, and whether or not to do new terrain limited access along the middle section in Arkansas between the Springdale Northern Bypass. Got into a little spat with a landowner who stayed all of 10 minutes, as he apparently thought it was all my idea to take his family farm of 5 generations for the road. Insisted that the government doesn't "take" land, but gives market value for any ROW purchases. Several of the folks for the KC firm studying the project routing were somewhat embarrassed, and there really wasn't a huge ARDOT presence at this stage, but I kind of laughed and let them know that you just can't make everyone happy with a project of this scope. No question that it's needed and will happen, regardless of the history and sentimentality. Can't halt change at the end of the day, so might as well embrace it and try to shape it for the greatest good. I'd probably not be too happy to have my property condemned either, but at this stage, there isn't even a route proposed around Siloam Springs, so it was a lot of tilting at windmills. Talked to a newspaper photographer there who apparently wanted my name as I guess he was going to put my picture in the local Siloam Springs newspaper. Hope I wasn't picking my nose or anything when he snapped the pic.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on June 08, 2023, 08:33:50 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 08, 2023, 08:33:50 PM
Okay, I'll be that guy and ask since someone will eventually... Did anyone at these meetings mention a number for this new route yet?
(Someone on OKCTalk claims they talked to someone at one of the Oklahoma agencies and they said it would be a western I-42. I don't know how credible this is, though.)
(Someone on OKCTalk claims they talked to someone at one of the Oklahoma agencies and they said it would be a western I-42. I don't know how credible this is, though.)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 08, 2023, 08:53:46 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 08, 2023, 08:53:46 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 08, 2023, 08:33:50 PM
Okay, I'll be that guy and ask since someone will eventually... Did anyone at these meetings mention a number for this new route yet?
(Someone on OKCTalk claims they talked to someone at one of the Oklahoma agencies and they said it would be a western I-42. I don't know how credible this is, though.)
It wasn't even really staffed by ARDOT, per se, but the engineering firm out of KC. I did talk to one guy at one of the slides about this very thing, and he thought I-42 or I-46, but he didn't have any more pull with AASHTO on that particular subject than you or I do, so he didn't know. Of course, our beloved legislature can also write a number into law, like I-57 or I-99 and take it out of their hands.
I pitched I-50 myself as I eventually see it extended on both ends, just not for decades. It'll go east toward Nashville before it goes further west than I-35 in all likelihood. US-412 (I-50) and US-50/400/60/Western Kentucky Parkway (I-60) are really the only E-W corridors between I-40 and I-70 in mid-America between the big mountain ranges that could even warrant such numbers anyway. It's not like states have issues handling duplicate route numbers anymore anyway with the advent of computers that can handle route designations with greater than 4 alphanumeric characters. The AASHTO policy is antiquated and needs refigured by now.
That said, I-42 doesn't suck either as the current highway has the numbers in it anyway. They can call it "Bob" for all I care as long as the road gets built to standards within 10 years.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on June 08, 2023, 09:58:24 PM
Post by: Road Hog on June 08, 2023, 09:58:24 PM
QuoteThat said, I-42 doesn't suck either as the current highway has the numbers in it anyway. They can call it "Bob" for all I care as long as the road gets built to standards within 10 years.
Get Hot, I-BOB sign fans!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Henry on June 08, 2023, 10:04:17 PM
Post by: Henry on June 08, 2023, 10:04:17 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on June 08, 2023, 08:53:46 PMI'm another proponent of the I-50 number. I really hate that the I-x0s haven't been filled all the way in like the I-x5s have, and I feel that this would be the genesis for the next cross-country Interstate. Also overdue is a revival of the Transamerica Corridor (aka the long-dead western I-66), using the I-60 number and having some modifications done to its routing. I would like to see at least one of these two corridors built in my lifetime, even though I may not even live to actually witness any actual construction, so at the very least, I'll have all my marked-up old atlases to look back on.Quote from: Scott5114 on June 08, 2023, 08:33:50 PM
Okay, I'll be that guy and ask since someone will eventually... Did anyone at these meetings mention a number for this new route yet?
(Someone on OKCTalk claims they talked to someone at one of the Oklahoma agencies and they said it would be a western I-42. I don't know how credible this is, though.)
It wasn't even really staffed by ARDOT, per se, but the engineering firm out of KC. I did talk to one guy at one of the slides about this very thing, and he thought I-42 or I-46, but he didn't have any more pull with AASHTO on that particular subject than you or I do, so he didn't know. Of course, our beloved legislature can also write a number into law, like I-57 or I-99 and take it out of their hands.
I pitched I-50 myself as I eventually see it extended on both ends, just not for decades. It'll go east toward Nashville before it goes further west than I-35 in all likelihood. US-412 (I-50) and US-50/400/60/Western Kentucky Parkway (I-60) are really the only E-W corridors between I-40 and I-70 in mid-America between the big mountain ranges that could even warrant such numbers anyway. It's not like states have issues handling duplicate route numbers anymore anyway with the advent of computers that can handle route designations with greater than 4 alphanumeric characters. The AASHTO policy is antiquated and needs refigured by now.
That said, I-42 doesn't suck either as the current highway has the numbers in it anyway. They can call it "Bob" for all I care as long as the road gets built to standards within 10 years.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rover_0 on June 09, 2023, 01:21:32 AM
Post by: Rover_0 on June 09, 2023, 01:21:32 AM
Quote from: Henry on June 08, 2023, 10:04:17 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 08, 2023, 08:53:46 PMI'm another proponent of the I-50 number. I really hate that the I-x0s haven't been filled all the way in like the I-x5s have, and I feel that this would be the genesis for the next cross-country Interstate. Also overdue is a revival of the Transamerica Corridor (aka the long-dead western I-66), using the I-60 number and having some modifications done to its routing. I would like to see at least one of these two corridors built in my lifetime, even though I may not even live to actually witness any actual construction, so at the very least, I'll have all my marked-up old atlases to look back on.Quote from: Scott5114 on June 08, 2023, 08:33:50 PM
Okay, I'll be that guy and ask since someone will eventually... Did anyone at these meetings mention a number for this new route yet?
(Someone on OKCTalk claims they talked to someone at one of the Oklahoma agencies and they said it would be a western I-42. I don't know how credible this is, though.)
It wasn't even really staffed by ARDOT, per se, but the engineering firm out of KC. I did talk to one guy at one of the slides about this very thing, and he thought I-42 or I-46, but he didn't have any more pull with AASHTO on that particular subject than you or I do, so he didn't know. Of course, our beloved legislature can also write a number into law, like I-57 or I-99 and take it out of their hands.
I pitched I-50 myself as I eventually see it extended on both ends, just not for decades. It'll go east toward Nashville before it goes further west than I-35 in all likelihood. US-412 (I-50) and US-50/400/60/Western Kentucky Parkway (I-60) are really the only E-W corridors between I-40 and I-70 in mid-America between the big mountain ranges that could even warrant such numbers anyway. It's not like states have issues handling duplicate route numbers anymore anyway with the advent of computers that can handle route designations with greater than 4 alphanumeric characters. The AASHTO policy is antiquated and needs refigured by now.
That said, I-42 doesn't suck either as the current highway has the numbers in it anyway. They can call it "Bob" for all I care as long as the road gets built to standards within 10 years.
There's a political editorial talking about an "Interstate 54" (https://www.soonerpolitics.org/editorial/editorial-its-time-for-interstate-54) running between Tallahassee FL and St. George UT and using a possible alignment using the US-412 corridor, so there's that option. Personally, I'd prefer I-48, I-52, or I-58 as there's no conflict with an existing, same-numbered US Highway.
There's also the more out-there idea to create a parallel US Route to some variation of this Interstate that would be used where the road isn't up to standards, possibly with the same number (think I-52 and US-412 or I-48 and US-48, slight out-of-grid placement notwithstanding).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 09, 2023, 01:23:59 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 09, 2023, 01:23:59 AM
I hope it's I-50.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 09, 2023, 11:04:47 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 09, 2023, 11:04:47 AM
I'd pick 46 or 48. As for the Interstate 54 Rover_0 mentioned, outside of the US 412 corridor between Interstates 35 and 49, none of the rest of the corridor would ever be constructed. A Fictional Highways proposal if I ever saw one.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 09, 2023, 12:41:28 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 09, 2023, 12:41:28 PM
Did anyone on the boards go to the Oklahoma meeting? If so, was it pretty much the same presentation? I would assume the same engineering firm is working with both DOTs, so probably so.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 11, 2023, 11:38:40 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 11, 2023, 11:38:40 PM
Here's a link to the story map of which I was only able to get through the survey that finally opened for me:
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b71bcf1f1fab422baa6dc11acbac3051
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b71bcf1f1fab422baa6dc11acbac3051
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on June 12, 2023, 08:40:59 AM
Post by: rte66man on June 12, 2023, 08:40:59 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 11, 2023, 11:38:40 PM
Here's a link to the story map of which I was only able to get through the survey that finally opened for me:
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b71bcf1f1fab422baa6dc11acbac3051
The study said there were 2 at-grade intersections on the Cimarron Turnpike. I looked them up on Google and saw one is the access to the OHP building just south of the US64 interchange near Morrison. The other is a maintenance access east of Glencoe. It has a gate that is locked until needed to give mowers access. I would hardly classify both as "at-grade intersections".
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 13, 2023, 12:14:33 AM
Post by: bugo on June 13, 2023, 12:14:33 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 07, 2023, 04:58:23 PMQuote from: bugo on June 07, 2023, 04:20:05 PMI've been to it but I only drove through it on the interstate. I've seen pictures. It really is more about spurring development than reconnecting the neighborhood that isn't there anymore.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 10:38:26 PMQuote from: bugo on June 06, 2023, 10:06:22 PMI disagree. It's an urban stretch of interstate that needs to be redesign. The better fit the needs of the neighborhood it replaced even if it isn't there anymore. You can't just destroy a neighborhood and then say hey, there's no concern valid because the neighborhood we destroyed isn't there anymore. That's ridiculous.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 06, 2023, 07:33:47 PM
They will also likely have to address the segment through Greenwood and come up with a long term plan which would be great if they could tunnel it but at minimum something will need to be done to address that issue. So it seems like the segment through Tulsa will have some issues to work out but should be fairly simple as long as they can get the money.
There's nothing to address. The neighborhood isn't there anymore. That ship sailed 50 years ago. This is a bunch of nothing.
Trying to "reconnect" something that hasn't existed in two generations is much more ridiculous. There's literally one church and a college north of the highway. I don't think the folks who live in the gentrified apartments at Greenwood and Archer are going to be walking to an African American church, and if they did, the underpass is wide open and lit up at night.
Your suggestion is about as ridiculous as saying that they should build a tunnel through Sideling Hill, even though the roadcut has been there for decades. The hill is no longer there, so you wouldn't be preserving or reconnecting anything, because what was once there is gone forever.
Have you ever been to this part of Tulsa?
Spurring development? Why? There is development all over the city. Why here? And why is it worth tearing down a busy freeway that is part of a major national highway (and is about to have a second Interstate routed along it) just so they can develop some land? They can build new buildings in BA or Catoosa. There's absolutely no reason this area has to be developed. There's nothing wrong with undeveloped land. This is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard in my life.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 13, 2023, 02:30:09 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 13, 2023, 02:30:09 AM
What the fuck are you talking about? I didn't suggest tearing out a highway. Get some reading comprehension.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 13, 2023, 08:48:14 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 13, 2023, 08:48:14 AM
Quote from: rte66man on June 12, 2023, 08:40:59 AMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on June 11, 2023, 11:38:40 PM
Here's a link to the story map of which I was only able to get through the survey that finally opened for me:
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b71bcf1f1fab422baa6dc11acbac3051
The study said there were 2 at-grade intersections on the Cimarron Turnpike. I looked them up on Google and saw one is the access to the OHP building just south of the US64 interchange near Morrison. The other is a maintenance access east of Glencoe. It has a gate that is locked until needed to give mowers access. I would hardly classify both as "at-grade intersections".
Probably about a third of the "intersections" on the 4 lane divided stretch between Tontitown and Siloam Springs could be easily handled by short access roads and overpasses tied to a dramatically reduced exit count. By my reckoning, there should be an exit at Fairmont Rd., Chamber Springs Rd., Martin Pedro Rd., Robinson Rd., Littrell Rd., and Wildcat Creek Rd./WC-851. Everything else could be tied into one of those exits with access roads of less than a mile, or closed entirely as they tie back to one of them within 3 miles on their backsides. Making the 4 lane divided part west of Tontitown into limited access seems like a no-brainer to me rather than a new terrain parallel through a rather narrow Illinois River floodplain that has flooded with great regularity since the current 4 lane facility was put into place.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 15, 2023, 03:05:50 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 15, 2023, 03:05:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 11, 2023, 11:38:40 PM
Here's a link to the story map of which I was only able to get through the survey that finally opened for me:
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/b71bcf1f1fab422baa6dc11acbac3051
This is the same thing we had in the Arkansas meeting. I spoke with the lady who was manning physical printout of the last slide at this link at the Arkansas meeting, and she said that the next public open house meeting, which is the Alternatives Review that is scheduled in the fall timeframe, would be around September. Probably do the submission to AASHTO for Interstate Designation around the same time.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 15, 2023, 10:35:05 PM
Post by: bugo on June 15, 2023, 10:35:05 PM
When the number is approved by AASHTO and the FHWA, will ODOT go ahead and sign the parts of the road that are (grandfathered in) Interstate standard with the new number? The portion from I-35 to about 3 miles east of the I-44/US 412 split will all be a freeway except for the one at grade near the Keystone Dam. The Cherokee Turnpike is a freeway, so that part could theoretically be signed. The only part in Arkansas that is a freeway is the AR 612 freeway stub. If they don't go all the way and sign it, will they at least post "future I-xx" signs? I don't think I've ever seen a future Interstate sign in Oklahoma, but there haven't been any future Interstates planned since states started posting future Interstate signs.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 16, 2023, 12:41:45 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 16, 2023, 12:41:45 AM
^ The Cherokee Turnpike segment could not be signed as it does not connect to any other interstate highway segments.
Any signed segments would need to connect to an existing interstate highway.
Any signed segments would need to connect to an existing interstate highway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 16, 2023, 08:18:06 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 16, 2023, 08:18:06 AM
The September meeting will also put to rest the idea that anything to do with bypassing Siloam Springs belongs in "Fictional" as we'll have alternatives for our viewing pleasure.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2023, 12:21:13 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2023, 12:21:13 PM
I don't suppose the future Siloam Springs Bypass will be a toll road, or become an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 16, 2023, 02:35:15 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 16, 2023, 02:35:15 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2023, 12:21:13 PM
I don't suppose the future Siloam Springs Bypass will be a toll road, or become an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike?
Not likely on the Arkansas side, but no telling with Oklahoma.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on June 17, 2023, 10:14:05 AM
Post by: rte66man on June 17, 2023, 10:14:05 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on June 16, 2023, 02:35:15 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2023, 12:21:13 PM
I don't suppose the future Siloam Springs Bypass will be a toll road, or become an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike?
Not likely on the Arkansas side, but no telling with Oklahoma.
Can't see it happening. The turnpike ends about 15 miles west of Siloam Springs. The 4 lane road there could easily be upgraded without having to build on a new alignment.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 18, 2023, 01:49:41 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 18, 2023, 01:49:41 PM
I would not call that last 7 miles of US-412 between the end of the turnpike and Arkansas border "easily upgradeable." The ROW width varies from around 290' to around 260' in some spots, which could make a normal freeway design with frontage roads a tight squeeze. The development in Siloam Springs on the AR side of the border will do more to dictate the freeway/toll road connection path to the Cherokee Turnpike than anything. There is no way US-412 is getting upgraded into a freeway directly thru Siloam Springs. A bypass North of the town is the most likely outcome. A Southern bypass is possible, but would go through rougher, more hilly (more expensive to grade) terrain.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on June 18, 2023, 07:31:07 PM
Post by: rte66man on June 18, 2023, 07:31:07 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 18, 2023, 01:49:41 PM
I would not call that last 7 miles of US-412 between the end of the turnpike and Arkansas border "easily upgradeable." The ROW width varies from around 290' to around 260' in some spots, which could make a normal freeway design with frontage roads a tight squeeze. The development in Siloam Springs on the AR side of the border will do more to dictate the freeway/toll road connection path to the Cherokee Turnpike than anything. There is no way US-412 is getting upgraded into a freeway directly thru Siloam Springs. A bypass North of the town is the most likely outcome. A Southern bypass is possible, but would go through rougher, more hilly (more expensive to grade) terrain.
You don't need a south frontage road as the old highway can serve for that.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on June 18, 2023, 11:55:10 PM
Post by: Road Hog on June 18, 2023, 11:55:10 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 18, 2023, 01:49:41 PMThe willingness of each local state DOT to pay fair market for eminent domain will determine the ROW width up and down the line. Cost and benefit analyses are being done right now, trust me.
I would not call that last 7 miles of US-412 between the end of the turnpike and Arkansas border "easily upgradeable." The ROW width varies from around 290' to around 260' in some spots, which could make a normal freeway design with frontage roads a tight squeeze. The development in Siloam Springs on the AR side of the border will do more to dictate the freeway/toll road connection path to the Cherokee Turnpike than anything. There is no way US-412 is getting upgraded into a freeway directly thru Siloam Springs. A bypass North of the town is the most likely outcome. A Southern bypass is possible, but would go through rougher, more hilly (more expensive to grade) terrain.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 19, 2023, 12:39:10 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 19, 2023, 12:39:10 PM
I just don't expect much of that existing 7 mile stretch of four lane highway to be upgraded due to the fact the Interstate highway on the Arkansas side of the border will have to go around Siloam Springs. The new highway will be located at least a few miles North or South of the existing US-412 road. On the Oklahoma side the new highway can't just hang a hard right or hard left turn at the border to meet up with that bypass. The bypass around Siloam Springs will have to angle back down to meet up with existing US-412 and the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike. Given the expense of adding new frontage roads and new main lanes along that existing segment of US-412, it wouldn't surprise me if ODOT (or OTA) skipped that section completely. They might just build a new terrain 4-lane highway diagonally to the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 19, 2023, 04:34:34 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 19, 2023, 04:34:34 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 19, 2023, 12:39:10 PM
I just don't expect much of that existing 7 mile stretch of four lane highway to be upgraded due to the fact the Interstate highway on the Arkansas side of the border will have to go around Siloam Springs. The new highway will be located at least a few miles North or South of the existing US-412 road. On the Oklahoma side the new highway can't just hang a hard right or hard left turn at the border to meet up with that bypass. The bypass around Siloam Springs will have to angle back down to meet up with existing US-412 and the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike. Given the expense of adding new frontage roads and new main lanes along that existing segment of US-412, it wouldn't surprise me of ODOT (or OTA) skipped that section completely. They might just build a new terrain 4-lane highway diagonally to the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike.
Good thing Oklahoma wouldn't do what Arkansas has done with bypasses, including the currently in-progress US-412 bypass of Springdale. Nothing preventing Arkansas from hanging hard rights to reduce new terrain building, so it's good that Oklahoma has more road funds than Arkansas does for this kind of project.
(https://wdcimagestorageprodeast.blob.core.windows.net/mls073/Large/1246322_6E727F13D2081895A1C84E3BB856F0B880281FE72C2EEF522A9B5AE5F6570646.jpeg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2023, 04:39:27 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2023, 04:39:27 PM
Yet Arkansas can build a proper stack interchange and Oklahoma can't lol
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 19, 2023, 07:19:30 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 19, 2023, 07:19:30 PM
Quote from: MikieTimTGood thing Oklahoma wouldn't do what Arkansas has done with bypasses, including the currently in-progress US-412 bypass of Springdale. Nothing preventing Arkansas from hanging hard rights to reduce new terrain building, so it's good that Oklahoma has more road funds than Arkansas does for this kind of project.
Unlike the Springdale Bypass, AR DOT cannot hard-bend a Siloam Springs bypass back into US-412 at the OK/AR border. There is far too much existing development right on the border. There is both heavy residential and business development on the Arkansas side all the way to the border's edge. Any new bypass will have to curve around all of that, and likely do so from miles North or South of the existing US-412 highway.
On the OK side of the border (West Siloam Springs) there is still plenty of existing property to either dodge or buy and clear. It's going to be a little tricky for ODOT or OTA to connect Oklahoma's part of the proposed Interstate to the point where the Siloam Springs bypass hits the border.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 21, 2023, 12:57:31 PM
Post by: bugo on June 21, 2023, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2023, 12:21:13 PM
I don't suppose the future Siloam Springs Bypass will be a toll road, or become an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike?
I don't think the OTA would be open to building highways in another state.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 21, 2023, 01:15:34 PM
Post by: bugo on June 21, 2023, 01:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 19, 2023, 07:19:30 PM
On the OK side of the border (West Siloam Springs) there is still plenty of existing property to either dodge or buy and clear. It's going to be a little tricky for ODOT or OTA to connect Oklahoma's part of the proposed Interstate to the point where the Siloam Springs bypass hits the border.
Part of the bypass will 100% have to be in Oklahoma. As Bobby said, the bypass can't start at the state line because there is too much development. It will have to begin at least 6 or 7 miles west of the state line, and likely will have to begin at the eastern end of the Cherokee Turnpike. Whether the Oklahoma part of the bypass is tolled or not remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: splashflash on June 21, 2023, 02:12:55 PM
Post by: splashflash on June 21, 2023, 02:12:55 PM
Ark.DOT or the Highway Commission might study the feasibility of tolls, as they have done in the past. https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2018/nov/19/state-looks-away-from-tolls-to-pay-for--1/
Quoted from the middle of the article on tolling for I-49:
Still, it is but the latest project in Arkansas to fall short as a toll facility.
"We can't seem to get tolls to work," Tom Scheuck, a member of the Arkansas Highway Commission, said at a meeting of the commission Wednesday.
It isn't like the department hasn't tried.
"We've been through more than 50 tolling studies in the last 50 years -- 50," Bennett said.
A handful have come close to closing the gap between what toll revenue would raise and what it would cost to build and maintain.
Most notably, the department looked at using tolls to widen Interstate 40 between North Little Rock and West Memphis to six lanes from four."
----------
Maybe electronic tolling is more cost effective and shared use of OTA facilities would push this one into the black.
Quoted from the middle of the article on tolling for I-49:
Still, it is but the latest project in Arkansas to fall short as a toll facility.
"We can't seem to get tolls to work," Tom Scheuck, a member of the Arkansas Highway Commission, said at a meeting of the commission Wednesday.
It isn't like the department hasn't tried.
"We've been through more than 50 tolling studies in the last 50 years -- 50," Bennett said.
A handful have come close to closing the gap between what toll revenue would raise and what it would cost to build and maintain.
Most notably, the department looked at using tolls to widen Interstate 40 between North Little Rock and West Memphis to six lanes from four."
----------
Maybe electronic tolling is more cost effective and shared use of OTA facilities would push this one into the black.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 02:34:22 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 02:34:22 PM
I would say that if Oklahoma extends the existing Turnpike west to the state line as a toll road, the remainder of the Siloam Springs bypass could conceivably be a toll road. Upgrades to the existing highway east of the town, however, should be toll-free. The toll road should end at the eastern terminus of the bypass.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 02:34:22 PM
I would say that if Oklahoma extends the existing Turnpike west to the state line as a toll road, the remainder of the Siloam Springs bypass could conceivably be a toll road. Upgrades to the existing highway east of the town, however, should be toll-free. The toll road should end at the eastern terminus of the bypass.
I don't see the Siloam Springs Bypass in Arkansas as warranting the implementation of tolls, and a study would just be a waste of money to give an answer that we've had dozens of times before. We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs. Now, if a new terrain facility parallel to the current 4 lane is built instead of limiting access and building a half dozen overpasses with short sections of access roads on the current facility between there and the west end of Tontitown, then we're talking about 14-15 miles of new build if hung off the west end of the sharp southern bend of the Northern Springdale Bypass, and it's possible the entirety of new build would be reasonably warranted for exploring the possibility of funding via tolls.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 06:28:10 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 06:28:10 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PMWe're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 21, 2023, 06:43:26 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 21, 2023, 06:43:26 PM
When the Siloam Springs Bypass is ultimately built, where might its eastern terminus be located (especially if it starts as an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike, tolls or no tolls)? And how might it intersect with the proposed western terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass? I wouldn't be surprised if they connect the two bypasses by upgrading the existing US 412 four-lane divided segment.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 21, 2023, 08:29:48 PM
Post by: bugo on June 21, 2023, 08:29:48 PM
ArDOT can't just slap a tollbooth up wherever they want to. Stare law would have to change. They tried 5o times and they still don't have tolls, and you would think they would see the writing on the wall and give up on the idea
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on June 21, 2023, 09:39:52 PM
Post by: swake on June 21, 2023, 09:39:52 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 06:28:10 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PMWe're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.
30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on June 21, 2023, 09:49:55 PM
Post by: intelati49 on June 21, 2023, 09:49:55 PM
Quote from: swake on June 21, 2023, 09:39:52 PMI think he's assuming a north bypass. It's going to have to be a long ways off of a straight line.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 06:28:10 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PMWe're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.
30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on June 21, 2023, 10:10:23 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 21, 2023, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 21, 2023, 08:29:48 PM
Stare law
Ah, good old Alanland...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 22, 2023, 03:44:55 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 22, 2023, 03:44:55 AM
Quote from: swake on June 21, 2023, 09:39:52 PMThe existing 33 miles of the Cherokee Turnpike, 7-8 miles of new location freeway in Oklahoma, and 5-6 miles of new location freeway in Arkansas.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 06:28:10 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PMWe're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.
30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.
Between 40 and 50 miles total of turnpike + new location roadway, all of which could be tolled.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on June 22, 2023, 10:14:51 AM
Post by: bugo on June 22, 2023, 10:14:51 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 22, 2023, 03:44:55 AMQuote from: swake on June 21, 2023, 09:39:52 PMThe existing 33 miles of the Cherokee Turnpike, 7-8 miles of new location freeway in Oklahoma, and 5-6 miles of new location freeway in Arkansas.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 06:28:10 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PMWe're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.
30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.
Between 40 and 50 miles total of turnpike + new location roadway, all of which could be tolled.
It isn't going to be a toll road in Arkansas. Get that out of your mind. There won't be a toll road in Arkansas for at least another generation. Arkansas doesn't build toll roads, and a 5 mile bypass isn't going to be any different.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on June 22, 2023, 11:35:26 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 22, 2023, 11:35:26 AM
Quote from: bugo on June 22, 2023, 10:14:51 AMI'm not suggesting it's going to be built as a toll road, I'm simply saying if Arkansas is going to have any, that is a logical location.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 22, 2023, 03:44:55 AMQuote from: swake on June 21, 2023, 09:39:52 PMThe existing 33 miles of the Cherokee Turnpike, 7-8 miles of new location freeway in Oklahoma, and 5-6 miles of new location freeway in Arkansas.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 06:28:10 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PMWe're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.
30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.
Between 40 and 50 miles total of turnpike + new location roadway, all of which could be tolled.
It isn't going to be a toll road in Arkansas. Get that out of your mind. There won't be a toll road in Arkansas for at least another generation. Arkansas doesn't build toll roads, and a 5 mile bypass isn't going to be any different.
In any case, I expect Oklahoma to simply upgrade the existing US-412 highway east of the Cherokee Turnpike, and for there to be a new location freeway, toll-free, around Siloam Springs. It will likely be cheaper to construct frontage roads, a few overpasses and maybe an interchange or two than to build a full new freeway parallel to the existing divided highway.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on June 22, 2023, 01:18:26 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on June 22, 2023, 01:18:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 22, 2023, 11:35:26 AMQuote from: bugo on June 22, 2023, 10:14:51 AMI'm not suggesting it's going to be built as a toll road, I'm simply saying if Arkansas is going to have any, that is a logical location.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 22, 2023, 03:44:55 AMQuote from: swake on June 21, 2023, 09:39:52 PMThe existing 33 miles of the Cherokee Turnpike, 7-8 miles of new location freeway in Oklahoma, and 5-6 miles of new location freeway in Arkansas.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 06:28:10 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PMWe're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.
30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.
Between 40 and 50 miles total of turnpike + new location roadway, all of which could be tolled.
It isn't going to be a toll road in Arkansas. Get that out of your mind. There won't be a toll road in Arkansas for at least another generation. Arkansas doesn't build toll roads, and a 5 mile bypass isn't going to be any different.
In any case, I expect Oklahoma to simply upgrade the existing US-412 highway east of the Cherokee Turnpike, and for there to be a new location freeway, toll-free, around Siloam Springs. It will likely be cheaper to construct frontage roads, a few overpasses and maybe an interchange or two than to build a full new freeway parallel to the existing divided highway.
I expect both states, when considering both of their histories, will do whatever comes cheapest, and that likely means converting 4-lane divided in both states between I-49 and the Cherokee Turnpike with short frontage roads and rather few exit interchanges given the amount of development along both segments. Greater amounts of federal funding would change the calculus for the project, but unless that happens, I fully expect both states to cheap out. Given Arkansas' history, we'll live with a Super-2 bypass of Siloam Springs for about 3-5 years before the full facility is built.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: DJStephens on June 22, 2023, 01:28:16 PM
Post by: DJStephens on June 22, 2023, 01:28:16 PM
Quote from: intelati49 on June 21, 2023, 09:49:55 PMQuote from: swake on June 21, 2023, 09:39:52 PMI think he's assuming a north bypass. It's going to have to be a long ways off of a straight line.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 21, 2023, 06:28:10 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on June 21, 2023, 05:26:45 PMWe're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.
30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.
Quote from: MikieTimT on June 19, 2023, 04:34:34 PMWhile personally have no familiarity with Springdale, a route going around the south would appear shorter, and possibly more direct. Believe previous posters have stated that there are Terrain issues to the south? A "New Jersey" type of facility could not be placed atop the existing corridor straight through either, with some sort of "fixing" of the jog in middle of town? Meaning "Bella Vista" ish, a narrow footprint, narrow L shoulder, 2 x 2, full R shoulder, and slip ramps. This whole scenario sounds a bit like the Muskogee situation also, with the issue there of US - 69 truck corridor going straight through, while there is bickering back and forth about a future high quality I-45 bypass to it's west.Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 19, 2023, 12:39:10 PMGood thing Oklahoma wouldn't do what Arkansas has done with bypasses, including the currently in-progress US-412 bypass of Springdale. Nothing preventing Arkansas from hanging hard rights to reduce new terrain building, so it's good that Oklahoma has more road funds than Arkansas does for this kind of project.(https://wdcimagestorageprodeast.blob.core.windows.net/mls073/Large/1246322_6E727F13D2081895A1C84E3BB856F0B880281FE72C2EEF522A9B5AE5F6570646.jpeg)
I just don't expect much of that existing 7 mile stretch of four lane highway to be upgraded due to the fact the Interstate highway on the Arkansas side of the border will have to go around Siloam Springs. The new highway will be located at least a few miles North or South of the existing US-412 road. On the Oklahoma side the new highway can't just hang a hard right or hard left turn at the border to meet up with that bypass. The bypass around Siloam Springs will have to angle back down to meet up with existing US-412 and the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike. Given the expense of adding new frontage roads and new main lanes along that existing segment of US-412, it wouldn't surprise me of ODOT (or OTA) skipped that section completely. They might just build a new terrain 4-lane highway diagonally to the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 22, 2023, 03:18:40 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 22, 2023, 03:18:40 PM
I think the way to deal with the Muskogee situation is by building a new US-69 ("future I-45") freeway farther West of Muskogee. Such a thing is very do-able without shifting traffic too far out of the way.
If people in Siloam Springs want to block freeway bypass efforts there the state DOTs could simply let the two border towns pay for their main street upkeep out of their own local tax base and shift highway money elsewhere. If the locals want to prop up a "Breezewood" for Interstate traffic then let the locals pay the cost of it.
If people in Siloam Springs want to block freeway bypass efforts there the state DOTs could simply let the two border towns pay for their main street upkeep out of their own local tax base and shift highway money elsewhere. If the locals want to prop up a "Breezewood" for Interstate traffic then let the locals pay the cost of it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: DJStephens on June 24, 2023, 10:13:52 AM
Post by: DJStephens on June 24, 2023, 10:13:52 AM
The difference, though, appears to be that there are now? possibly concrete plans to go around Siloam Springs, whereas in Muskogee the can has been kicked down the road in terms of a routing for future I-45.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 24, 2023, 12:48:20 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on June 24, 2023, 12:48:20 PM
ODOT and town fathers in Muskogee can kick the can down the road for now since not much of the corridor has been upgraded to Interstate standards. Over time ODOT could increase the pressure for completing a possible I-45 extension by building segments of it elsewhere.
It's pretty obvious US-69/75 will get upgraded to Interstate standards from the Red River to US-70 in Durant. The next step would be improving outdated bridges and ramps in Durant itself. It would be easy to upgrade US-69/75 to Interstate standards up to Tushka. McAlester and the Army Ammunition Depot is another area of focus where an Interstate quality segment can grow outward. Another thing ODOT can do is start building a new "I-45" segment from I-44 and Big Cabin and start working downward toward Muskogee.
Basically ODOT could accomplish upgrading a lot of US-69 from the Red River to Big Cabin regardless of what anyone in Atoka, Stringtown or Muskogee could say. If Texas was to sign US-75 as I-45 up to the Red River ODOT could follow suit and have the designation get up to Durant. They could sign a new segment from Big Cabin going Southward the same way. That would put a lot of visible pressure on those towns trying to block highway progress. And ODOT could leave it up to Muskogee, Atoka, Stringtown, etc to fix the pavement damage to their streets from all the truck traffic pounding them. Just give the excuse, "we have so many other projects elsewhere in the state; you guys don't want an Interstate here anyway, so pay for those damned trucks driving on your local streets." Again, in the case of Muskogee a new bypass West of the city limits is pretty do-able.
It's pretty obvious US-69/75 will get upgraded to Interstate standards from the Red River to US-70 in Durant. The next step would be improving outdated bridges and ramps in Durant itself. It would be easy to upgrade US-69/75 to Interstate standards up to Tushka. McAlester and the Army Ammunition Depot is another area of focus where an Interstate quality segment can grow outward. Another thing ODOT can do is start building a new "I-45" segment from I-44 and Big Cabin and start working downward toward Muskogee.
Basically ODOT could accomplish upgrading a lot of US-69 from the Red River to Big Cabin regardless of what anyone in Atoka, Stringtown or Muskogee could say. If Texas was to sign US-75 as I-45 up to the Red River ODOT could follow suit and have the designation get up to Durant. They could sign a new segment from Big Cabin going Southward the same way. That would put a lot of visible pressure on those towns trying to block highway progress. And ODOT could leave it up to Muskogee, Atoka, Stringtown, etc to fix the pavement damage to their streets from all the truck traffic pounding them. Just give the excuse, "we have so many other projects elsewhere in the state; you guys don't want an Interstate here anyway, so pay for those damned trucks driving on your local streets." Again, in the case of Muskogee a new bypass West of the city limits is pretty do-able.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on July 02, 2023, 04:48:01 PM
Post by: bugo on July 02, 2023, 04:48:01 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos?
The University of Arkansas generates traffic between the Tulsa area and Fayetteville. Lots of Tulsa natives attend the UofA (Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is) and a lot of Razorback fans live in Tulsa, so they travel to Fayetteville to watch football, basketball and baseball games.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on July 02, 2023, 09:02:10 PM
Post by: Road Hog on July 02, 2023, 09:02:10 PM
Quote from: bugo on July 02, 2023, 04:48:01 PMIt's 63 miles from Tulsa to Stillwater and 113 miles from Tulsa to Fayettevile. No doubt Tulsa has a few Hog fans but Okie Lite is an easier drive.Quote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos?
The University of Arkansas generates traffic between the Tulsa area and Fayetteville. Lots of Tulsa natives attend the UofA (Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is) and a lot of Razorback fans live in Tulsa, so they travel to Fayetteville to watch football, basketball and baseball games.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on July 02, 2023, 09:36:34 PM
Post by: bugo on July 02, 2023, 09:36:34 PM
There's an OSU campus and hospital in Tulsa, as well as an OU medical hospital, so a lot of Tulsa residents attend those programs.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 05, 2023, 01:36:10 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 05, 2023, 01:36:10 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on July 02, 2023, 09:02:10 PMQuote from: bugo on July 02, 2023, 04:48:01 PMQuote from: edwaleni on May 23, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos?
The University of Arkansas generates traffic between the Tulsa area and Fayetteville. Lots of Tulsa natives attend the UofA (Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is) and a lot of Razorback fans live in Tulsa, so they travel to Fayetteville to watch football, basketball and baseball games.
It's 63 miles from Tulsa to Stillwater and 113 miles from Tulsa to Fayettevile. No doubt Tulsa has a few Hog fans but Okie Lite is an easier drive.
I've got a cousin that just graduated from OSU after playing safety this past year finally, which he picked over the U of A because of the coaching drama prior to Pittman, so it goes the other way sometimes too. There's a lot of similarities between the 2 states, and lots of us have ties that go both ways as I've had family and friends move to the Tulsa area after graduation. I'd say that the traffic is driven not really by casinos, as you don't have to go further than a mile in to Oklahoma either from Siloam Springs or Ft. Smith to get that fix from the Cherokees or Choctaws. It's commerce as there's a number of things in either state with ties to the other, and Canoo is really just the trendy thing at the moment drawing attention to those ties. We also enjoy each other's lakes on weekends as Oklahoma has Grand Lake for a wide open lake experience, and Arkansas has a number of lakes surrounded by mountains and forests for a more natural outing, so tourism works both ways as well. There are folks that come from all of the surrounding states to drive their sports cars or motorcycles on the twisty mountain roads in the Ozarks, and Tulsa is where lots of folks around here go to buy automobiles as they tend to be cheaper than the local dealers. So, it's not really just one thing driving the traffic, but the 2 metros really are interdependent in a great many ways, so it only makes sense to strengthen the road that ties them together. It'll only get more the case with the continued growth of both, which will continue as they are both still somewhat cheap than most other Top 100 metros.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on July 05, 2023, 03:32:35 PM
Post by: bugo on July 05, 2023, 03:32:35 PM
There are tons of Razorback fans in Tulsa. I see Hog license plates and stickers on cars all the time. A lot of UA graduates take jobs in Tulsa after graduating, because it's the closest metro of its size from Fayetteville.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 05, 2023, 07:09:20 PM
Post by: swake on July 05, 2023, 07:09:20 PM
Quote from: bugo on July 05, 2023, 03:32:35 PM
There are tons of Razorback fans in Tulsa. I see Hog license plates and stickers on cars all the time. A lot of UA graduates take jobs in Tulsa after graduating, because it's the closest metro of its size from Fayetteville.
Tulsa to Fayetteville is just 113 miles as compared to 190 miles to Little Rock. And Tulsa is quite a bit larger than Little Rock. NW Arkansas and Tulsa have lots of ties.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
Quote from: swake on July 05, 2023, 07:09:20 PMQuote from: bugo on July 05, 2023, 03:32:35 PM
There are tons of Razorback fans in Tulsa. I see Hog license plates and stickers on cars all the time. A lot of UA graduates take jobs in Tulsa after graduating, because it's the closest metro of its size from Fayetteville.
Tulsa to Fayetteville is just 113 miles as compared to 190 miles to Little Rock. And Tulsa is quite a bit larger than Little Rock. NW Arkansas and Tulsa have lots of ties.
And Tulsa is a more appealing city in several ways that would make me choose it over LR, geographic convenience aside. My brother lived in Ft. Smith, LR, and Tulsa before moving to Seattle 16 years ago, so I've gotten to know each pretty well. Little Rock has more in common with Arkansas in general, but NWA has a lot more in common with Tulsa or KC than it does with LR. NWA still draws from the entire state of Arkansas for the U of A, and a significant portion stick around afterwards, like I did, although I'm from the county just west of Ft. Smith rather than LR. NWA also gets a ton of Texans too as they get in-state tuition rates and UT Austin only accepts so many each year, so a lot of overflow comes up this way, especially those that like the outdoors along with their college experience. I'm sure there's a lot from eastern Oklahoma with the same goal for their college life that OU and OSU don't facilitate if the education or family legacy is only part of the consideration. U of A used to be considered more of a party school, but has upped their game on the academics significantly over the last 25 years.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on July 06, 2023, 12:12:55 PM
Post by: bugo on July 06, 2023, 12:12:55 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
And Tulsa is a more appealing city in several ways that would make me choose it over LR, geographic convenience aside.
Agreed. I've lived in Conway and Cabot, and I briefly worked at the Little Rock airport, so I know all about central Arkansas, and Little Rock isn't nearly as nice as Tulsa. Most of the bad parts of Tulsa are concentrated in certain areas, while the bad parts of Little Rock are scattered among the nicer parts. Cabot and Conway were nice enough (this was 25-30 years ago), but LR/NLR is pretty dumpy in places.
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
My brother lived in Ft. Smith, LR, and Tulsa before moving to Seattle 16 years ago, so I've gotten to know each pretty well. Little Rock has more in common with Arkansas in general, but NWA has a lot more in common with Tulsa or KC than it does with LR.
I laugh when Tulsa natives say that Tulsa is part of the South. It has far more in common with Kansas City than Memphis or Savannah or Baton Rouge or Little Rock. You could argue that Le Flore and McCurtain Counties have a southern feel, but Tulsa is a midwestern city.
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
I'm from the county just west of Ft. Smith rather than LR.
Le Flore or Sequoyah? I grew up just across the state line from Le Flore County, and I'm very familiar with that part of the state.
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
NWA also gets a ton of Texans too as they get in-state tuition rates and UT Austin only accepts so many each year, so a lot of overflow comes up this way, especially those that like the outdoors along with their college experience. I'm sure there's a lot from eastern Oklahoma with the same goal for their college life that OU and OSU don't facilitate if the education or family legacy is only part of the consideration. U of A used to be considered more of a party school, but has upped their game on the academics significantly over the last 25 years.
A ton of Razorback players, past and present, are from Texas. Arkansas actively recruits Texas because it's a fertile ground for high school football. They've been recruiting Oklahoma pretty heavily in the last 20 years, and there have been some great Razorbacks who are from the Tulsa area, most notably Felix Jones.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 12:36:23 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 12:36:23 PM
Quote from: bugo on July 06, 2023, 12:12:55 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
And Tulsa is a more appealing city in several ways that would make me choose it over LR, geographic convenience aside.
Agreed. I've lived in Conway and Cabot, and I briefly worked at the Little Rock airport, so I know all about central Arkansas, and Little Rock isn't nearly as nice as Tulsa. Most of the bad parts of Tulsa are concentrated in certain areas, while the bad parts of Little Rock are scattered among the nicer parts. Cabot and Conway were nice enough (this was 25-30 years ago), but LR/NLR is pretty dumpy in places.Quote from: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
My brother lived in Ft. Smith, LR, and Tulsa before moving to Seattle 16 years ago, so I've gotten to know each pretty well. Little Rock has more in common with Arkansas in general, but NWA has a lot more in common with Tulsa or KC than it does with LR.
I laugh when Tulsa natives say that Tulsa is part of the South. It has far more in common with Kansas City than Memphis or Savannah or Baton Rouge or Little Rock. You could argue that Le Flore and McCurtain Counties have a southern feel, but Tulsa is a midwestern city.Quote from: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
I'm from the county just west of Ft. Smith rather than LR.
Le Flore or Sequoyah? I grew up just across the state line from Le Flore County, and I'm very familiar with that part of the state.Quote from: MikieTimT on July 06, 2023, 09:05:32 AM
NWA also gets a ton of Texans too as they get in-state tuition rates and UT Austin only accepts so many each year, so a lot of overflow comes up this way, especially those that like the outdoors along with their college experience. I'm sure there's a lot from eastern Oklahoma with the same goal for their college life that OU and OSU don't facilitate if the education or family legacy is only part of the consideration. U of A used to be considered more of a party school, but has upped their game on the academics significantly over the last 25 years.
A ton of Razorback players, past and present, are from Texas. Arkansas actively recruits Texas because it's a fertile ground for high school football. They've been recruiting Oklahoma pretty heavily in the last 20 years, and there have been some great Razorbacks who are from the Tulsa area, most notably Felix Jones.
Actually, I mistyped. Brain fart. Ft. Smith was just to the west of us growing up, making us about 20 miles to the east. Born in Booneville, and raised in Charleston. Western AR for all my raising and NWA since I was 20 and out on my own after a couple of years staying at home and commuting daily to Westark Community College (now UAFS) for a useless associates degree before getting my bachelors in Computer Systems Engineering at the U of A.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on July 06, 2023, 09:22:51 PM
Post by: Road Hog on July 06, 2023, 09:22:51 PM
Tulsa vs. Little Rock depends on what you're measuring. Tulsa is the bigger metropolitan statistical area, but in terms of TV media market Little Rock is No. 60 and Tulsa is No. 62. When you rank the radio markets, Tulsa is 66 and Little Rock is 94, which is a little surprising because a lot of the Little Rock stations reach way out into the state. Little Rock has the advantage of being a capital city and the center of media in the state. So I agree, in sum Tulsa has an overall edge, but I still consider them peers for the most part.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on July 06, 2023, 09:33:39 PM
Post by: Road Hog on July 06, 2023, 09:33:39 PM
This is just my opinion, but Conway planned better for suburban growth than Cabot did. Conway's streets are better and their zoning ordinances seem better.
A big part of Cabot proper seems a step removed from a ginormous trailer park. The standards there about 15 years ago seemed so slap-dash. It's much better in the planned developments on Cabot's outskirts that came in.
A big part of Cabot proper seems a step removed from a ginormous trailer park. The standards there about 15 years ago seemed so slap-dash. It's much better in the planned developments on Cabot's outskirts that came in.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on July 06, 2023, 09:39:25 PM
Post by: intelati49 on July 06, 2023, 09:39:25 PM
Sorry. With the notifications for the LR vs Tulsa got me thinking about the project again.
Decided to look at the definition on the High priority corridor.
"...Route that generally follows US 412..."
deaddove.gif
The line got me thinking "I wish there was a git blame for legislation"
Decided to look at the definition on the High priority corridor.
"...Route that generally follows US 412..."
deaddove.gif
The line got me thinking "I wish there was a git blame for legislation"
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 13, 2023, 02:54:18 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 13, 2023, 02:54:18 PM
This (https://heartlandforward.org/case-study/regional-collaboration/) explains a little of the interconnection current and future between the metros this upgrade is intended to foster.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on July 16, 2023, 09:50:16 PM
Post by: edwaleni on July 16, 2023, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 13, 2023, 02:54:18 PM
This (https://heartlandforward.org/case-study/regional-collaboration/) explains a little of the interconnection current and future between the metros this upgrade is intended to foster.
I get the concept, but if I were Wagoner and Mayes Counties in OK, I would want it for a different reason, updating US-69 for the Texas-KCMO traffic.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2023, 10:30:42 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2023, 10:30:42 PM
When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 17, 2023, 01:09:58 AM
Post by: swake on July 17, 2023, 01:09:58 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2023, 10:30:42 PM
When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.
The large part of the highway is already interstate quality and Oklahoma is applying for interstate designation this fall. Not so distant.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on July 17, 2023, 01:36:54 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 17, 2023, 01:36:54 AM
Quote from: swake on July 17, 2023, 01:09:58 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2023, 10:30:42 PM
When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.
The large part of the highway is already interstate quality and Oklahoma is applying for interstate designation this fall. Not so distant.
Where did you hear that it was happening this fall?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on July 17, 2023, 10:47:17 AM
Post by: bugo on July 17, 2023, 10:47:17 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2023, 10:30:42 PM
When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.
That's not a good idea. An Interstate should end at another Interstate, not cross an Interstate and peter out 10 miles past the Interstate. (I-26, I'm looking at you, buddy.) It would confuse motorists into thinking "I-50 East" is a through Interstate, and not a dead end. And since ArrrghDOT refuses to sign US highways along Interstates, US 412 would likely not be signed on this stretch of highway, making things even more confusing. I-50 or whatever should end at I-49 until US 412 is a freeway at least as far as I-55.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 17, 2023, 11:33:10 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 17, 2023, 11:33:10 AM
US 412 a freeway all the way to Interstate 55? A Fictional Highways proposal if I ever heard one. Outside of maybe a few more bypasses around towns, I doubt any more of US 412 in Arkansas will be upgraded to freeway standards.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on July 17, 2023, 11:54:55 AM
Post by: swake on July 17, 2023, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 17, 2023, 01:36:54 AMQuote from: swake on July 17, 2023, 01:09:58 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2023, 10:30:42 PM
When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.
The large part of the highway is already interstate quality and Oklahoma is applying for interstate designation this fall. Not so distant.
Where did you hear that it was happening this fall?
In the deck from the open house meetings last month:
https://meetings.vpioutreach.com/?peGuid=71fefbf3-9327-4b27-b13c-7a31107ee074&stakeGuid=e26ac6a5-72e7-44e8-82f7-89e833b99a10
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on July 17, 2023, 01:31:01 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 17, 2023, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: bugo on July 17, 2023, 10:47:17 AMI-26 continues north beyond I-81 in order to serve Kingsport, a city of nearly 60,000 and also one of the three major Tri-Cities in that corner of the state. It was previously I-181, they were not going to downgrade it.
(I-26, I'm looking at you, buddy.)
The interstate designation does not end at the state line / end of the freeway, it ends at US-11W which is a logical terminus point allowed by the FHWA.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 17, 2023, 10:17:12 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 17, 2023, 10:17:12 PM
Not counting the various in-progress Interstates with stubs-a-plenty, the Northern end of I-26 is arguably the oddest permanent terminus in the Interstate network. There are other ends I don't like either but that one on I-26 is one of my least favorite. I would have preferred them leaving that signed as I-181. US-23 is co-signed at the I-26/I-81 interchange. So I don't think it would be confusing for I-181 to be going North with US-23 NB and I-26 going East with US-23 SB.
With that being said, I'd be shocked if the Interstate designation on US-412 was extended East of I-49. The next US highway intersection with US-412 East of the I-49 corridor is with US-62 in Alpena. I don't see an Interstate upgrade of US-412 getting that far. I could maybe see it going as far as the AR-23 Super 2 interchange North of Huntsville, AR. That's not all that far East of Springdale. Most of that existing segment is 4-lane divided and fairly easy to upgrade.
I think I mentioned before some time ago, but I think it would be funny as hell if the US-412 designation turned out to be I-412. I can imagine them cramming the "412" digits into a 2-digit shield too. That I-238 nonsense near Oakland already establishes a precedent of sorts for 3-digit Interstate orphan routes. In the case of an "I-412" there would be at least some logic to it for route number continuation. Also some of the 400-series of US routes are orphans themselves. US-412 sure doesn't connect to US-12.
With that being said, I'd be shocked if the Interstate designation on US-412 was extended East of I-49. The next US highway intersection with US-412 East of the I-49 corridor is with US-62 in Alpena. I don't see an Interstate upgrade of US-412 getting that far. I could maybe see it going as far as the AR-23 Super 2 interchange North of Huntsville, AR. That's not all that far East of Springdale. Most of that existing segment is 4-lane divided and fairly easy to upgrade.
I think I mentioned before some time ago, but I think it would be funny as hell if the US-412 designation turned out to be I-412. I can imagine them cramming the "412" digits into a 2-digit shield too. That I-238 nonsense near Oakland already establishes a precedent of sorts for 3-digit Interstate orphan routes. In the case of an "I-412" there would be at least some logic to it for route number continuation. Also some of the 400-series of US routes are orphans themselves. US-412 sure doesn't connect to US-12.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on July 18, 2023, 12:53:40 PM
Post by: rte66man on July 18, 2023, 12:53:40 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 17, 2023, 10:17:12 PM
I think I mentioned before some time ago, but I think it would be funny as hell if the US-412 designation turned out to be I-412. I can imagine them cramming the "412" digits into a 2-digit shield too. That I-238 nonsense near Oakland already establishes a precedent of sorts for 3-digit Interstate orphan routes. In the case of an "I-412" there would be at least some logic to it for route number continuation. Also some of the 400-series of US routes are orphans themselves. US-412 sure doesn't connect to US-12.
++++1. That would be perfect!! :clap: :bigass:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 04:04:49 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 04:04:49 PM
Interstate 238 is an Interstate extension of a state highway, given all possible x80 designations were unavailable. Numbering the future US 412 corridor as Interstate 412 would be the definition of insanity to me.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 05:53:03 PM
Post by: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 04:04:49 PMHeh. Your standard for insanity ia quite low.
Interstate 238 is an Interstate extension of a state highway, given all possible x80 designations were unavailable. Numbering the future US 412 corridor as Interstate 412 would be the definition of insanity to me.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 06:30:51 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 06:30:51 PM
I think the Interstate 41/US 41 duplex is logical; the Interstate 74/US 74 duplex is rather absurd (considering Interstate 74 probably shouldn't even exist in North Carolina, but was written into law along with an out-of-place Interstate 73, neither of which will ever be completed as proposed via ISTEA in 1991). The reason I call an Interstate 412/US 412 the definition of insanity is because I don't think US 412 should even exist, at least not as its existing number. Like US 400 and US 425, US 412 is a way-out-of-place US Highway designation (so is US 163 in Arizona and Utah, as well as US 191 between Yellowstone National Park, WY and Douglas, AZ, but that's another thread). I think a better designation would have been US 162, since there aren't a lot of 2-digit US Highway designations that could have been chosen.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on July 18, 2023, 07:03:09 PM
Post by: Road Hog on July 18, 2023, 07:03:09 PM
The whole US 4xx fiasco had to be the product of a bad pizza party at AASHTO headquarters. Check the mushrooms.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Molandfreak on July 18, 2023, 09:40:40 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on July 18, 2023, 09:40:40 PM
Most people aren't even aware there are numbering rules for US highways, let alone the implied parent/child relationships of two- and three-digit US highways. The logic of these relationships wasn't always clear to begin with since US 220, US 410, and US 830 never connected with their "parents" in the first place. Any sense of order in the US highway system was completely thrown out the window when truncations started taking place, so the fact that they gave up on having new routes make sense from the intent of the initial numbering scheme isn't all that surprising to me.
Having said that, most people seem to vaguely be aware that the purpose of three-digit interstates are to provide shorter/local connections. Since the intent of this corridor is to provide a connection between two metro areas across a state line, I wouldn't opt for a three-digit interstate here.
Having said that, most people seem to vaguely be aware that the purpose of three-digit interstates are to provide shorter/local connections. Since the intent of this corridor is to provide a connection between two metro areas across a state line, I wouldn't opt for a three-digit interstate here.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: splashflash on July 18, 2023, 09:57:26 PM
Post by: splashflash on July 18, 2023, 09:57:26 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on July 18, 2023, 07:03:09 PM
The whole US 4xx fiasco had to be the product of a bad pizza party at AASHTO headquarters. Check the :hmmm:mushrooms.
Following the Ontario 400 series, but without the royal crown 👑.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 18, 2023, 11:34:56 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 18, 2023, 11:34:56 PM
Quote from: The GhostbusterThe reason I call an Interstate 412/US 412 the definition of insanity is because I don't think US 412 should even exist, at least not as its existing number.
The problem is US-412 does exist and has existed since the early 1980's. So that genie has been out of the bottle for quite some time. The same is true for vanity Interstate designations that don't fit the number grid (cough: I-99).
The Interstate being proposed from Springdale thru Tulsa to some desolate spot on I-35 is definitely NOT a major highway corridor. I wouldn't have a problem with them burning "minor" designations such as "I-46" or "I-48" on this route. But it would be a form of parody to use the "I-50" designation, the next most major possible designation next to "I-1".
An "I-412" designation for that portion of US-412 seems like a joke. But it does make sense in certain respects. There is no way the entire US-412 route will ever be upgraded to Interstate standards (nor should it be). A consistent "412" number would please those who worry different route numbers along that mixed-standard corridor would confuse motorists. Springdale to I-35 would be kind of long for a 3-digit route, but not all that long. The "parent" I-12 route in Louisiana is something of a joke on its own; it should have been a 3-digit I-x10 route. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. I don't see how it would hurt things for a "I-412" route to be a bigger thing than its distant "parent."
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on July 18, 2023, 11:40:41 PM
Post by: Road Hog on July 18, 2023, 11:40:41 PM
Perhaps the UK way of numbering non-motorway motorways could be put to use here, namely US 412 (I).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 18, 2023, 11:52:40 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 18, 2023, 11:52:40 PM
In another era the section of US-412 to be re-designated as an Interstate would end up being an un-signed Interstate. Due to the political pomp and circumstance surrounding the legislation it looks like an un-signed I-route is unlikely. It's going to have to be called something. I'll probably be laughing if they choose "I-412" and laughing even harder if they use 2-digit shields.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on July 19, 2023, 07:28:07 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 19, 2023, 07:28:07 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 18, 2023, 11:34:56 PM
There is no way the entire US-412 route will ever be upgraded to Interstate standards (nor should it be). A consistent "412" number would please those who worry different route numbers along that mixed-standard corridor would confuse motorists.
Is anyone likely to want to follow the entire US-412 corridor to begin with? If you ask Google for a route between its endpoint it suggests using I-40 to the Texas panhandle and angling northwest from there. The two routes that actually use a decent amount of US-412 both pick it up in Tulsa.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Henry on July 19, 2023, 10:03:07 PM
Post by: Henry on July 19, 2023, 10:03:07 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 06:30:51 PMFor that matter, I-69 will never be completed either, at least not in our lifetimes. I had to LOL at the I-412 proposal, which may replace I-238 as the most ridiculous number out there. But the main difference is, I-12 exists and I-38 does not.
I think the Interstate 41/US 41 duplex is logical; the Interstate 74/US 74 duplex is rather absurd (considering Interstate 74 probably shouldn't even exist in North Carolina, but was written into law along with an out-of-place Interstate 73, neither of which will ever be completed as proposed via ISTEA in 1991). The reason I call an Interstate 412/US 412 the definition of insanity is because I don't think US 412 should even exist, at least not as its existing number. Like US 400 and US 425, US 412 is a way-out-of-place US Highway designation (so is US 163 in Arizona and Utah, as well as US 191 between Yellowstone National Park, WY and Douglas, AZ, but that's another thread). I think a better designation would have been US 162, since there aren't a lot of 2-digit US Highway designations that could have been chosen.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rover_0 on July 19, 2023, 10:33:21 PM
Post by: Rover_0 on July 19, 2023, 10:33:21 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 06:30:51 PM
I think the Interstate 41/US 41 duplex is logical; the Interstate 74/US 74 duplex is rather absurd (considering Interstate 74 probably shouldn't even exist in North Carolina, but was written into law along with an out-of-place Interstate 73, neither of which will ever be completed as proposed via ISTEA in 1991). The reason I call an Interstate 412/US 412 the definition of insanity is because I don't think US 412 should even exist, at least not as its existing number. Like US 400 and US 425, US 412 is a way-out-of-place US Highway designation (so is US 163 in Arizona and Utah, as well as US 191 between Yellowstone National Park, WY and Douglas, AZ, but that's another thread). I think a better designation would have been US 162, since there aren't a lot of 2-digit US Highway designations that could have been chosen.
FWIW I did put in a suggestion to OkDOT and ArDOT for the planned Interstate along US-412 to be numbered I-58, with a possible extended US-58 to act as a continuation when not up to standards, with a Google Map showing the route. Another possibility would be to extend US-74 west over US-412 from Chattanooga. I'll probably post the map in Fictional Highways given that's the territory I've entered so far with this post, but who knows? Maybe someone likes it--or a similar concept. I do like the idea of 412 instead getting numbered US-162.
As for real-world designations, weren't there some construction documents stating the Interstate as (a western) I-42 or something like that?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on July 19, 2023, 11:23:35 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 19, 2023, 11:23:35 PM
VDOT has thrown around the "I-58" label for a potential US-58 interstate upgrade between Hampton Roads and I-95 / I-85, although that would be years if not decades away.
I-42 is the designation for a future major interstate in eastern North Carolina. I would see I-46 or I-48 being reasonable for this US-412 route, if not I-x35, I-x44, or I-x49.
I-42 is the designation for a future major interstate in eastern North Carolina. I would see I-46 or I-48 being reasonable for this US-412 route, if not I-x35, I-x44, or I-x49.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 20, 2023, 01:42:26 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on July 20, 2023, 01:42:26 PM
Quote from: Scott5114Is anyone likely to want to follow the entire US-412 corridor to begin with?
Springer, NM to Columbia, TN would be an odd road trip. But I could imagine motorists following pretty significant stretches of US-412.
For instance, anyone in the Tulsa area wanting to go hunting, fishing or skiing in Northern New Mexico spots like Eagle Nest, Angel Fire, etc would follow US-412 to its end at Springer as part of getting there. Motorists would travel over a combination of highway types carrying the same number.
Quote from: sprjus4I-42 is the designation for a future major interstate in eastern North Carolina.
I-42 is a "major" Interstate? More like minor intra-state to be honest. The "I-412" idea might be better than a second, disconnected I-42 designation -all while looking kind of like an I-42 marker.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 20, 2023, 02:42:07 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 20, 2023, 02:42:07 PM
The US 412 designation should not have been extended west of Guymon, OK since it duplicates existing US Routes from there to Springer, NM. Then again, I also think OK 3's western terminus should have been at US 81 southeast of Okarche, since it has to duplex with numerous other routes to get to the Colorado border.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on July 20, 2023, 03:56:30 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 20, 2023, 03:56:30 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 20, 2023, 01:42:26 PMMajor in terms of importance. The route sees over 30,000 AADT on most of it, and is a major connecting route for Raleigh / Greensboro towards the Crystal Coast, especially during the summer.Quote from: sprjus4I-42 is the designation for a future major interstate in eastern North Carolina.
I-42 is a "major" Interstate? More like minor intra-state to be honest. The "I-412" idea might be better than a second, disconnected I-42 designation -all while looking kind of like an I-42 marker.
Maybe not importance on a national scale, but it's certainly an important route for those in North Carolina.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on July 20, 2023, 07:17:05 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on July 20, 2023, 07:17:05 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 17, 2023, 11:33:10 AM
US 412 a freeway all the way to Interstate 55? A Fictional Highways proposal if I ever heard one. Outside of maybe a few more bypasses around towns, I doubt any more of US 412 in Arkansas will be upgraded to freeway standards.
Never say never. I don't see it happening within 4 decades, but a lot can change to make us look dumb when forecasting over 2 decades even. For example, who would have thought that Siloam Springs would need a bypass when they started the project that resulted in the 6 laning of US-412 through town a couple of decades back?;-) I could see a push to make US-65 into an Interstate highway between Conway and Springfield within 3 decades time, and that changes the calculus for an extension of I-50 to Harrison.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on July 29, 2023, 11:25:34 PM
Post by: bugo on July 29, 2023, 11:25:34 PM
Quote from: Rover_0 on July 19, 2023, 10:33:21 PM
FWIW I did put in a suggestion to OkDOT and ArDOT for the planned Interstate along US-412 to be numbered I-58, with a possible extended US-58 to act as a continuation when not up to standards, with a Google Map showing the route. Another possibility would be to extend US-74 west over US-412 from Chattanooga. I'll probably post the map in Fictional Highways given that's the territory I've entered so far with this post, but who knows? Maybe someone likes it--or a similar concept. I do like the idea of 412 instead getting numbered US-162.
I would do the opposite. Rename US 74 to US 412. This would eliminate the confusing 74 West/74 West split.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 30, 2023, 08:41:25 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 30, 2023, 08:41:25 AM
I'd do it the other way around, replace US 412 with US 74.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 31, 2023, 02:19:22 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 31, 2023, 02:19:22 PM
US-412A improvements meeting in Delaware county. Not this isn't directly related to the interstate upgrade but will compliment it. Meeting is august 3rd: https://us-412a-poe.hub.arcgis.com/
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 09:32:16 AM
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 09:32:16 AM
It's going to be Interstate 42:
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/transportation-commision/agenda/2023/tc_agenda-202309-r.pdf
Quotea) Districts IV and VIII — Delaware, Mayes, Rogers, Tulsa, Osage, Pawnee, Payne and Noble Counties
Add Designation of I-42 in various locations throughout the state
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/transportation-commision/agenda/2023/tc_agenda-202309-r.pdf
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 10:28:12 AM
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 10:28:12 AM
Here's the relevant part of the ODOT document referencing I-42:
(https://i.imgur.com/5wyGrWY.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5wyGrWY.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 10:32:48 AM
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 10:32:48 AM
I find it interesting that I-42 is going to be a follow route on I-244, which means at least for now, a 42/244 overlap will exist from the NW corner of the IDL to I-44.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on September 11, 2023, 10:36:47 AM
Post by: edwaleni on September 11, 2023, 10:36:47 AM
Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 09:32:16 AM
It's going to be Interstate 42:Quotea) Districts IV and VIII — Delaware, Mayes, Rogers, Tulsa, Osage, Pawnee, Payne and Noble Counties
Add Designation of I-42 in various locations throughout the state
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/transportation-commision/agenda/2023/tc_agenda-202309-r.pdf
I would say that puts it to rest.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 11, 2023, 11:30:27 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 11, 2023, 11:30:27 AM
So, there may/will be two future Interstate 42s. The 42 designation still needs to be approved for it to be placed on the US 412 corridor, but it will probably be done.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:03:51 PM
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:03:51 PM
The meeting starts at 11am CDT at this link:
https://video.ibm.com/channel/odot-monthly-commission-meeting
https://video.ibm.com/channel/odot-monthly-commission-meeting
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2023, 08:24:10 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2023, 08:24:10 PM
So fucking dumb. This road should be I-50. I will forever be prepared to die on that hill.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 08:49:15 PM
Post by: bugo on September 11, 2023, 08:49:15 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2023, 08:24:10 PM
So fucking dumb. This road should be I-50. I will forever be prepared to die on that hill.
Me, too. The Springdale Chamber of Commerce blew a golden opportunity to be able to brag about being at the "corner of I-49 and I-50". 42 is about the worst choice of the eligible numbers that they could have picked. There's already an I-42, and about half of the western I-42 will be between I-40 and I-44, and the other half will be between I-44 and I-70, so no number is perfect, but 42 is not the best choice they could have made. I thought they would go for 46 or 48, which would have been preferable to 42, even though I was secretly rooting for the underdog I-50 designation.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2023, 08:51:59 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2023, 08:51:59 PM
Yeah I-42 was the worst of all possible choices. Oklahoma is gonna Oklahoma. I would have to think they consulted ARDOT off the record about it as well, no?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: vdeane on September 11, 2023, 08:53:01 PM
Post by: vdeane on September 11, 2023, 08:53:01 PM
Why the hell would anyone duplicate I-42 when there are other perfectly good numbers available? I hope someone from AASHTO or FHWA puts a stop to this madness. If anything, we should be working to eliminate the duplicate 2dis, not add more of them. I would go so far as to say that 42 is not an eligible number because I-42 already exists.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Strider on September 11, 2023, 09:06:47 PM
Post by: Strider on September 11, 2023, 09:06:47 PM
Wait a minute.. they're about to rename it to I-42? What... I-42 already exists in NC as an under construction interstate (soon to be signed official in some areas). What are they doing?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Revive 755 on September 11, 2023, 09:12:24 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on September 11, 2023, 09:12:24 PM
^ Maybe there's secret plan (that never comes to fruition) to connect the two I-42's? :spin:
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Strider on September 11, 2023, 09:31:38 PM
Post by: Strider on September 11, 2023, 09:31:38 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 11, 2023, 09:12:24 PM
^ Maybe there's secret plan (that never comes to fruition) to connect the two I-42's? :spin:
LOL. If that is their secret plan, it isn't happening.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 11, 2023, 10:54:00 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 11, 2023, 10:54:00 PM
Quote from: Strider on September 11, 2023, 09:31:38 PMQuote from: Revive 755 on September 11, 2023, 09:12:24 PM
^ Maybe there's secret plan (that never comes to fruition) to connect the two I-42's? :spin:
LOL. If that is their secret plan, it isn't happening.
It's not a done deal yet. I haven't seen any movement on the Arkansas side to confirm this number, and it's still up to AASHTO/FHWA to approve, barring a Congressional designation, which has happened in recent Arkansas history with I-57 in Arkansas and Missouri. I'm not offended by I-42 necessarily, but I agree with Bugo that Springdale is blowing a golden opportunity to be the numeric center of the Interstate Highway System. It also makes it an easier lift to get it extended easterly eventually toward Nashville, which is where High Priority Corridor 8 has it's easterly terminus from the 1991 ISTEA. It's not too late to write congressmen to get it reconsidered.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 11, 2023, 11:08:22 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 11, 2023, 11:08:22 PM
I don't mind I-46 or I-48 being signed along that US-412 route. But turning and burning an "I-50" designation for a very short, MINOR Interstate route would way surpass the shameless vanity of that I-99 crap in Pennsylvania. Hell, if we're going to go that far why not go for broke and try to call the route Interstate ONE!? JFC.
:-/
:-/
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 12, 2023, 08:45:33 AM
Post by: bugo on September 12, 2023, 08:45:33 AM
I-50 fits into the grid as well as any number does. It will be north of I-44 and south of I-70. And they're not going to build a cross country I-50, so why save it for an occasion which will likely never happen?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on September 12, 2023, 10:03:04 AM
Post by: kphoger on September 12, 2023, 10:03:04 AM
Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 08:49:15 PM
brag about being at the "corner of I-49 and I-50"
lol
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: okc1 on September 12, 2023, 02:15:24 PM
Post by: okc1 on September 12, 2023, 02:15:24 PM
There needs to be a reduction of routes on the Tulsa IDL (inner loop). Last year I was going from South Tulsa to Sand Springs via US 64/OK-51. On the west leg of the loop, you have to cross all lanes of 244 to stay on 64/51. And there is a sharp curve right after you leave the loop. The addition of I-42 will just add to the confusion. Suggest breaking 51 into 2 separate routes and making 412 a hidden route.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on September 12, 2023, 02:24:24 PM
Post by: swake on September 12, 2023, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: okc1 on September 12, 2023, 02:15:24 PM
There needs to be a reduction of routes on the Tulsa IDL (inner loop). Last year I was going from South Tulsa to Sand Springs via US 64/OK-51. On the west leg of the loop, you have to cross all lanes of 244 to stay on 64/51. And there is a sharp curve right after you leave the loop. The addition of I-42 will just add to the confusion. Suggest breaking 51 into 2 separate routes and making 412 a hidden route.
I-444 is already a hidden route on the IDL
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 12, 2023, 02:40:05 PM
Post by: bugo on September 12, 2023, 02:40:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 12, 2023, 10:03:04 AMQuote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 08:49:15 PMlol
brag about being at the "corner of I-49 and I-50"
I'm only about 20% joking, and that's only because I think it would be funny to see everybody lose their fucking minds if they did indeed designate it as I-50.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2023, 02:57:15 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2023, 02:57:15 PM
Currently, Interstate 70 meets Interstate 71 in Columbus, Ohio; Interstates 73 and 74 are co-designated in North Carolina; Interstate 74 ends at Interstate 75 in Cincinatti, Ohio; Interstate 76 meets Interstate 77 in Akron, Ohio; Interstate 79 meets Interstate 80 southeast of Mercer, Pennsylvania and northwest of Grove City, Pennsylvania; Interstate 80 meets Interstate 81 near St. John's, Pennsylvania; and Interstate 90 meets Interstate 91 in the Springfield, Massachusetts area. In the future, Interstate 69 will meet Interstate 70 in Indianapolis, IN and Interstate 86 will meet Interstate 87 in Harriman, New York.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Strider on September 12, 2023, 02:59:08 PM
Post by: Strider on September 12, 2023, 02:59:08 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on September 11, 2023, 10:54:00 PMQuote from: Strider on September 11, 2023, 09:31:38 PMQuote from: Revive 755 on September 11, 2023, 09:12:24 PM
^ Maybe there's secret plan (that never comes to fruition) to connect the two I-42's? :spin:
LOL. If that is their secret plan, it isn't happening.
It's not a done deal yet. I haven't seen any movement on the Arkansas side to confirm this number, and it's still up to AASHTO/FHWA to approve, barring a Congressional designation, which has happened in recent Arkansas history with I-57 in Arkansas and Missouri. I'm not offended by I-42 necessarily, but I agree with Bugo that Springdale is blowing a golden opportunity to be the numeric center of the Interstate Highway System. It also makes it an easier lift to get it extended easterly eventually toward Nashville, which is where High Priority Corridor 8 has it's easterly terminus from the 1991 ISTEA. It's not too late to write congressmen to get it reconsidered.
NC is definitely not going for it (I live there and their plan is for I-42 to run from I-40 to Morehead City, that's it.) I doubt Tennessee will be willing to do that either.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on September 12, 2023, 03:08:12 PM
Post by: kphoger on September 12, 2023, 03:08:12 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2023, 02:57:15 PM
Currently, Interstate 70 meets Interstate 71 in Columbus, Ohio; Interstates 73 and 74 are co-designated in North Carolina; Interstate 74 ends at Interstate 75 in Cincinatti, Ohio; Interstate 76 meets Interstate 77 in Akron, Ohio; Interstate 79 meets Interstate 80 southeast of Mercer, Pennsylvania and northwest of Grove City, Pennsylvania; Interstate 80 meets Interstate 81 near St. John's, Pennsylvania; and Interstate 90 meets Interstate 91 in the Springfield, Massachusetts area. In the future, Interstate 69 will meet Interstate 70 in Indianapolis, IN and Interstate 86 will meet Interstate 87 in Harriman, New York.
and i get so tired of ohio bragging about it all the time
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on September 12, 2023, 05:02:09 PM
Post by: edwaleni on September 12, 2023, 05:02:09 PM
Not sure why people are getting worked up over a non-contiguous naming scheme.
I-76 has been non-contiguous since I-80S was renamed in Colorado years ago from Julesburg to Denver.
I-76 also goes from Youngstown to Seville, OH.
I-76 has been non-contiguous since I-80S was renamed in Colorado years ago from Julesburg to Denver.
I-76 also goes from Youngstown to Seville, OH.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on September 12, 2023, 05:14:53 PM
Post by: bugo on September 12, 2023, 05:14:53 PM
That's not a good reason to duplicate a number when there are unique numbers available that fit the grid just as well. There's no reason to use 42 when 46-50 are available.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: vdeane on September 12, 2023, 08:45:33 PM
Post by: vdeane on September 12, 2023, 08:45:33 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on September 12, 2023, 05:02:09 PMI hate those too, but at least they have the excuse that there are few numbers available in that part of the grid (although I really think that I-84 and I-86 could be eliminated by making I-82 N-S and I-86 a 3di). I-87 should be E-W and I-42 has plenty of other numbers available.
Not sure why people are getting worked up over a non-contiguous naming scheme.
I-76 has been non-contiguous since I-80S was renamed in Colorado years ago from Julesburg to Denver.
I-76 also goes from Youngstown to Seville, OH.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 12, 2023, 09:26:09 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 12, 2023, 09:26:09 PM
Quote from: bugoI-50 fits into the grid as well as any number does. It will be north of I-44 and south of I-70. And they're not going to build a cross country I-50, so why save it for an occasion which will likely never happen?
An "I-50" designation would imply major route importance. The fact that certain people are campaigning for that number only goes to prove my point. US-412 from Tulsa to Springdale is extremely NOT an important Interstate route. If we can get away with calling that "I-50" then that standard would open other ridiculous possibilities. Some jackass (a politician most likely) could come along and suggest something like the WA-16 freeway from Tacoma to Bremerton be labeled as Interstate 1.
Not all one thru ninety-nine digits need to be used up in Interstate highway designations. Considering how the US highway system has had so many routes decommissioned and cannibalized, maybe this situation could be something which helps protect US-50.
Quote from: okc1There needs to be a reduction of routes on the Tulsa IDL (inner loop).
Some routes could maybe not be signed. Still, the problems with Tulsa's IDL have more to do with the very small geographical size of the loop and its high frequency of exits and interchanges. Traffic weaving issues are going to be bad regardless of how the routes are signed.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2023, 09:33:44 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2023, 09:33:44 PM
My number for the US 412 corridor has always been Interstate 46, although any even number between 42 and 62 would work. As for the highways designated along Tulsa's IDL, the only place I could see them being moved to would be back on their original alignments through town (excluding US 412, which has gone along its existing alignment since it was extended westward from Walnut Ridge, AR in 1988).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 09:29:13 AM
Post by: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 09:29:13 AM
Quote from: bugo on September 12, 2023, 05:14:53 PM
That's not a good reason to duplicate a number when there are unique numbers available that fit the grid just as well. There's no reason to use 42 when 46-50 are available.
I agree with this.
However, I should note that the purpose of a route number is to make sure people end up on the right road. In that sense, duplicated 2di numbers don't matter any more than duplicated 3di numbers matter–or two states having separate routes with the same number, for that matter.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:08:13 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:08:13 AM
There's 2 sides to the numbering debate in my opinion:
1). The number doesn't matter as long as it's unique in the region that it runs and is near what it should be for a standardized grid numbering scheme. What's more important is that it's built to the standards that allow for freer and faster flowing traffic with appropriate geometry, lane, and shoulder widths as well as a somewhat higher floor of maintenance standards. You don't want to burn a number that might logically fit somewhere else.
2). The number matters in that the currently designated endpoints aren't necessarily the ultimate endpoints, although they might be for 3-4 decades, and part of having an Interstate designation is marketing your area for industrial and commercial growth, so the number might have an impact from a marketing perspective. You don't want to pigeonhole your possibilities to extend the termini with future growth that the facility might induce near the endpoints, nor preclude the possibility that growth to other logical termini past the current endpoints might warrant extending the facility.
I would lean toward the latter view. The growth patterns according to the census data show that every county to the east of I-49 is on a growth trajectory until you get to the bootheel, whereas west of I-35, it isn't. I could easily see I-4*/50 growing past NWA to the east as the area along US-412 is prime retirement area and will continue its growth as the boomers wind down their work lives. There's plenty of justification for extending at minimum to US-65 at Harrison in the next 15 years, but also to I-57 after it's completion not long afterwards with all of the counties in between continuing to grow. And other than the counties on both sides the Mississippi River, all of the counties between there and Nashville are growing. The question ultimately is, where else does I-50 belong, if not along US-412? What are the growth prospects of any alternative across multiple states? Kansas looks pretty bleak to me, as does southern Illinois and eastern Kentucky.
(https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2022/comm/where-counties-are-growing/_jcr_content/root/responsivegrid/embeddableimage1119.coreimg.jpeg/1648061822530/where-counties-are-growing.jpeg)
1). The number doesn't matter as long as it's unique in the region that it runs and is near what it should be for a standardized grid numbering scheme. What's more important is that it's built to the standards that allow for freer and faster flowing traffic with appropriate geometry, lane, and shoulder widths as well as a somewhat higher floor of maintenance standards. You don't want to burn a number that might logically fit somewhere else.
2). The number matters in that the currently designated endpoints aren't necessarily the ultimate endpoints, although they might be for 3-4 decades, and part of having an Interstate designation is marketing your area for industrial and commercial growth, so the number might have an impact from a marketing perspective. You don't want to pigeonhole your possibilities to extend the termini with future growth that the facility might induce near the endpoints, nor preclude the possibility that growth to other logical termini past the current endpoints might warrant extending the facility.
I would lean toward the latter view. The growth patterns according to the census data show that every county to the east of I-49 is on a growth trajectory until you get to the bootheel, whereas west of I-35, it isn't. I could easily see I-4*/50 growing past NWA to the east as the area along US-412 is prime retirement area and will continue its growth as the boomers wind down their work lives. There's plenty of justification for extending at minimum to US-65 at Harrison in the next 15 years, but also to I-57 after it's completion not long afterwards with all of the counties in between continuing to grow. And other than the counties on both sides the Mississippi River, all of the counties between there and Nashville are growing. The question ultimately is, where else does I-50 belong, if not along US-412? What are the growth prospects of any alternative across multiple states? Kansas looks pretty bleak to me, as does southern Illinois and eastern Kentucky.
(https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2022/comm/where-counties-are-growing/_jcr_content/root/responsivegrid/embeddableimage1119.coreimg.jpeg/1648061822530/where-counties-are-growing.jpeg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: hotdogPi on September 13, 2023, 10:16:07 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on September 13, 2023, 10:16:07 AM
I'm not sure I trust the 2020-2021 change. The 2021 data seems to ignore the discrepancies between the 2019 estimates and 2020 actual and pretends that growth is still happening in the ways they thought it was in the late 2010s estimates.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 10:19:14 AM
Post by: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:08:13 AM
There's 2 sides to the numbering debate in my opinion:
[...]
2). ... part of having an Interstate designation is marketing your area for industrial and commercial growth, so the number might have an impact from a marketing perspective.
What does this mean?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:30:13 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:30:13 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 10:19:14 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:08:13 AM
There's 2 sides to the numbering debate in my opinion:
[...]
2). ... part of having an Interstate designation is marketing your area for industrial and commercial growth, so the number might have an impact from a marketing perspective.
What does this mean?
Some numbers look better than others in economic development marketing materials when trying to attract business.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:36:55 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:36:55 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 13, 2023, 10:16:07 AM
I'm not sure I trust the 2020-2021 change. The 2021 data seems to ignore the discrepancies between the 2019 estimates and 2020 actual and pretends that growth is still happening in the ways they thought it was in the late 2010s estimates.
I'm not sure I trust pre-Covid numbers. The changes are likely structural at this point, but time will ultimately tell. Demographically, we're in for a period of upheaval as the Baby Boomer cohort is retiring, and Covid pulled that forward by 2-3 years, but it was inevitable. Folks on fixed incomes cannot continue living in high tax environments, so they seek cheaper locations, preferably with milder weather. That means that the growth will continue trending south and west, but the west has water issues, so Arizona's growth is unsustainable unless they desalinate ocean water. They'll never get Mississippi River water like what opinion news articles periodically bandy about as it's not an engineering issue, but a political one. That leaves growth trending to the south and southeast over the next decade. Until it's no longer cheap, that is...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 10:55:20 AM
Post by: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 10:55:20 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:30:13 AMQuote from: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 10:19:14 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:08:13 AM
There's 2 sides to the numbering debate in my opinion:
[...]
2). ... part of having an Interstate designation is marketing your area for industrial and commercial growth, so the number might have an impact from a marketing perspective.
What does this mean?
Some numbers look better than others in economic development marketing materials when trying to attract business.
I mean, 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: triplemultiplex on September 13, 2023, 11:32:32 AM
Post by: triplemultiplex on September 13, 2023, 11:32:32 AM
46 is the only choice. It's the lowest number between 40 and 70 that isn't taken.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 13, 2023, 11:56:11 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 13, 2023, 11:56:11 AM
As much as I prefer the Interstate 46 designation, as I've stated before, I have a sneaking suspicion that the previously mentioned Interstate 42 designation mentioned in that document earlier might be the one chosen.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 12:51:59 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 12:51:59 PM
It's sort of dumb that Oklahoma is asking for a number that's already used, but we already knew Oklahoma was going to do something sort of dumb because it's Oklahoma. Anyway, the numbers 46 and 48 are both sort of aesthetically displeasing to me, so I don't actually care that NC already thinks it has it.
Actually, it's NC's I-42 that sucks because at least ours is supposed to cross state lines.
Actually, it's NC's I-42 that sucks because at least ours is supposed to cross state lines.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 13, 2023, 03:23:24 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on September 13, 2023, 03:23:24 PM
Quote from: MikieTimTThe growth patterns according to the census data show that every county to the east of I-49 is on a growth trajectory until you get to the bootheel, whereas west of I-35, it isn't.
A county-based map doesn't properly show what's really happening with the nation's demographics and geography. And a 2020-21 sample is a mere blip on a time line.
Most small towns and rural areas in the US are losing population via out-migration and more deaths than births. A county-based map doesn't reflect that very well. Younger adults are leaving in droves, which steadily erodes the tax base in those places. Even elderly people who might prefer small town living get forced into moving to more populous areas for social services and health care access. And then the densely populated areas have their own problems, with the main one being ridiculously high living costs. This catch-22 situation sure isn't going to bode well for highway funding in future decades.
The NW Arkansas cluster of cities is growing. The OKC and Tulsa metros are among the few areas in Oklahoma gaining population. But none of those three metros are getting big on the scale of attracting their own NFL teams. Oklahoma City only has major Interstate routes like I-35 and I-40 running through it because OKC was geographically in the right place for it to happen.
Quote from: kphogerI mean, 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything...
Don't panic.
Quote from: Scott5114Actually, it's NC's I-42 that sucks because at least ours is supposed to cross state lines.
NC's version is only around 130 miles long. That's almost short enough to justify a 3-digit Interstate route number (especially with the route being intra-state).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on September 14, 2023, 08:26:48 AM
Post by: rte66man on September 14, 2023, 08:26:48 AM
:pan:
Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 10:55:20 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:30:13 AMQuote from: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 10:19:14 AMQuote from: MikieTimT on September 13, 2023, 10:08:13 AM
There's 2 sides to the numbering debate in my opinion:
[...]
2). ... part of having an Interstate designation is marketing your area for industrial and commercial growth, so the number might have an impact from a marketing perspective.
What does this mean?
Some numbers look better than others in economic development marketing materials when trying to attract business.
I mean, 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on September 14, 2023, 08:29:43 AM
Post by: edwaleni on September 14, 2023, 08:29:43 AM
AASHTO has redesigned their website, good luck in finding board or committee meeting minutes now. They seemed to have either disappeared or are behind a login. So much for transparency.
I can't find any meeting notes that approved I-42 for this route, however, the head of ArDOT Highway Planning (Vines) is currently a voting member on the executive committee.
I can't find any meeting notes that approved I-42 for this route, however, the head of ArDOT Highway Planning (Vines) is currently a voting member on the executive committee.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: mvak36 on September 14, 2023, 09:56:12 AM
Post by: mvak36 on September 14, 2023, 09:56:12 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on September 14, 2023, 08:29:43 AM
AASHTO has redesigned their website, good luck in finding board or committee meeting minutes now. They seemed to have either disappeared or are behind a login. So much for transparency.
I can't find any meeting notes that approved I-42 for this route, however, the head of ArDOT Highway Planning (Vines) is currently a voting member on the executive committee.
I did ask them if they're going to start posting that stuff on their new site again. They said they'd look into it. Idk what will happen, but I guess I will keep bugging them after every meeting to get the minutes.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on September 14, 2023, 11:58:39 PM
Post by: edwaleni on September 14, 2023, 11:58:39 PM
Quote from: mvak36 on September 14, 2023, 09:56:12 AMQuote from: edwaleni on September 14, 2023, 08:29:43 AM
AASHTO has redesigned their website, good luck in finding board or committee meeting minutes now. They seemed to have either disappeared or are behind a login. So much for transparency.
I can't find any meeting notes that approved I-42 for this route, however, the head of ArDOT Highway Planning (Vines) is currently a voting member on the executive committee.
I did ask them if they're going to start posting that stuff on their new site again. They said they'd look into it. Idk what will happen, but I guess I will keep bugging them after every meeting to get the minutes.
Please do. The new site is all just PR drivel and ads from highway contractors now. There is stuff in there that has nothing to do with highways.
The meeting minutes was shining light on their decisions for all to see and taking them away is counterproductive to public policy.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 02, 2023, 10:50:38 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 02, 2023, 10:50:38 PM
Looks like Oct. 19 is ARDOT's PEL Study results open house. Probably Oklahoma's meeting is on or near that date as well. Should be some clarity forthcoming on the Siloam Springs Bypass route alternatives along with the alternatives for connecting it to the Springdale Northern Bypass.
https://www.ardot.gov/events/coming-soon-public-meeting-u-s-412-planning-and-environmental-linkages-pel-study/ (https://www.ardot.gov/events/coming-soon-public-meeting-u-s-412-planning-and-environmental-linkages-pel-study/)
https://www.ardot.gov/events/coming-soon-public-meeting-u-s-412-planning-and-environmental-linkages-pel-study/ (https://www.ardot.gov/events/coming-soon-public-meeting-u-s-412-planning-and-environmental-linkages-pel-study/)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on October 10, 2023, 03:55:25 PM
Post by: intelati49 on October 10, 2023, 03:55:25 PM
Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, there's not going to be much in the way of alternatives for this meeting.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/de853c534703420287fac279def0e852
(https://imgur.com/piegurI.png)
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/de853c534703420287fac279def0e852
(https://imgur.com/piegurI.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on October 11, 2023, 12:12:58 PM
Post by: edwaleni on October 11, 2023, 12:12:58 PM
Here is the official Oklahoma project logo, clear as mud?
(https://uploads2.vpioutreach.com/a7831245-f19c-44b5-bfb5-a40c03da0be9.jpg)
(https://uploads2.vpioutreach.com/a7831245-f19c-44b5-bfb5-a40c03da0be9.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 11, 2023, 01:24:36 PM
Post by: swake on October 11, 2023, 01:24:36 PM
Quote from: intelati49 on October 10, 2023, 03:55:25 PM
Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, there's not going to be much in the way of alternatives for this meeting.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/de853c534703420287fac279def0e852
(https://imgur.com/piegurI.png)
Especially on the Oklahoma side where most of the work is already on the 8 year projects plan.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 11, 2023, 10:48:24 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 11, 2023, 10:48:24 PM
Most of the alternatives that come about from the results of this meeting are actually involving the work required east of Tulsa. Within Tulsa and to the west of it, there really shouldn't be much involved in getting it ready to swap out the shield. So, the meeting in Pryor and Siloam Springs will likely have more input solicited on ideas for alternatives as those are the areas most impacted by the changes required to bring the facility up to standard.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2023, 01:23:24 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2023, 01:23:24 AM
Would the current route in West Siloam Springs be signed as a business route? Are those still happening?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: mvak36 on October 12, 2023, 09:49:40 AM
Post by: mvak36 on October 12, 2023, 09:49:40 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 12:51:59 PM
It's sort of dumb that Oklahoma is asking for a number that's already used, but we already knew Oklahoma was going to do something sort of dumb because it's Oklahoma. Anyway, the numbers 46 and 48 are both sort of aesthetically displeasing to me, so I don't actually care that NC already thinks it has it.
Actually, it's NC's I-42 that sucks because at least ours is supposed to cross state lines.
I guess I'm a month late to this. I'm not really a fan of re-using I-42, but NC's I-42 is AASHTO's fault so I'm just rooting for chaos at this point.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 12, 2023, 01:32:59 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 12, 2023, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: MikieTimTMost of the alternatives that come about from the results of this meeting are actually involving the work required east of Tulsa. Within Tulsa and to the west of it, there really shouldn't be much involved in getting it ready to swap out the shield.
The Sand Springs Expressway (US-412) going West out of Tulsa needs some work. Inner shoulders along the main lanes need improvements (not wide enough). Some bridges and ramps need work (obsolete designs). There is an at-grade intersection just past the exit for Keystone Dam.
It looks like the Cimarron Turnpike will be up to current Interstate standards once OTA finishes at least three tasks. They have to remove around 3.5 miles worth of grassy median just West of the Stillwater spur interchange. They have to finish re-building the US-177 exit and toll plaza removal. The OK-99 interchange rebuild and Jennings toll plaza removal is farther along in progress.
All of this adds up to considerably less work than the improvements needed East of Tulsa.
Quote from: mvak36I guess I'm a month late to this. I'm not really a fan of re-using I-42, but NC's I-42 is AASHTO's fault so I'm just rooting for chaos at this point.
The I-42 route in Oklahoma/Arkansas will look interesting if its shields are paired with US-412.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 12, 2023, 02:24:06 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 12, 2023, 02:24:06 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 12, 2023, 01:32:59 PMQuote from: MikieTimTMost of the alternatives that come about from the results of this meeting are actually involving the work required east of Tulsa. Within Tulsa and to the west of it, there really shouldn't be much involved in getting it ready to swap out the shield.
The Sand Springs Expressway (US-412) going West out of Tulsa needs some work. Inner shoulders along the main lanes need improvements (not wide enough). Some bridges and ramps need work (obsolete designs). There is an at-grade intersection just past the exit for Keystone Dam.
It looks like the Cimarron Turnpike will be up to current Interstate standards once OTA finishes at least three tasks. They have to remove around 3.5 miles worth of grassy median just West of the Stillwater spur interchange. They have to finish re-building the US-177 exit and toll plaza removal. The OK-99 interchange rebuild and Jennings toll plaza removal is farther along in progress.
All of this adds up to considerably less work than the improvements needed East of Tulsa.Quote from: mvak36I guess I'm a month late to this. I'm not really a fan of re-using I-42, but NC's I-42 is AASHTO's fault so I'm just rooting for chaos at this point.
The I-42 route in Oklahoma/Arkansas will look interesting if its shields are paired with US-412.
Well, I did my pitch with my Representative and Senators for I-50, but I don't hold out hope at this point. Did get one call back from an office intern thanking me for my input, so we'll see in a few short weeks if I need to just go ahead and change my avatar.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: vdeane on October 12, 2023, 08:53:22 PM
Post by: vdeane on October 12, 2023, 08:53:22 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 12, 2023, 01:32:59 PMHmm... maybe that's why they wanted I-42.
The I-42 route in Oklahoma/Arkansas will look interesting if its shields are paired with US-412.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 12, 2023, 11:28:47 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 12, 2023, 11:28:47 PM
With me being a sign designer, I have to say there is something aesthetically pleasing about "42" and "412" shields being arranged together vertically or horizontally on a steel post.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 12:13:27 AM
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 12:13:27 AM
I'm no sign designer, but here's something I cobbled up in Photoshop in a few minutes.
(https://i.imgur.com/EItPoJN.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/EItPoJN.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 13, 2023, 08:46:48 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 13, 2023, 08:46:48 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 12, 2023, 11:28:47 PM
With me being a sign designer, I have to say there is something aesthetically pleasing about "42" and "412" shields being arranged together vertically or horizontally on a steel post.
On the Arkansas side of the border, you can rest assured that they won't be. When I-49 shields went up, the US-71 shields came down.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2023, 04:39:52 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2023, 04:39:52 PM
Is Oklahoma like to co-sign US 412 and future Interstate 42 together? How good is the state about co-signing Interstates with State and US Highways?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 13, 2023, 04:50:18 PM
Post by: swake on October 13, 2023, 04:50:18 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2023, 04:39:52 PM
Is Oklahoma like to co-sign US 412 and future Interstate 42 together? How good is the state about co-signing Interstates with State and US Highways?
Yes, most likely will:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0844125,-96.0437347,3a,30.2y,33.91h,90.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s20AwT0F_LemLBdZd6Dcaog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1633078,-95.9808348,3a,75y,188.41h,103.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKu16YSZEMnyY_BXHm6FCEA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Title: Interstate 42
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:01:55 PM
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:01:55 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2023, 04:39:52 PM
Is Oklahoma like to co-sign US 412 and future Interstate 42 together? How good is the state about co-signing Interstates with State and US Highways?
I took this picture a couple of weeks after I-540 was extended from Van Buren to Rogers, in 1999. It didn't go all the way to Bella Vista, it ended at the US 62 interchange and the freeway to the north was signed as solo US 71. When I-540 was renamed to I-49, it replaced the US 71 freeway between US 62 and then US 71B. This sign assembly probably didn't last long, but it's a rare glimpse into a fantastical world where Arkansas is as religious as signing highway overlaps as Oklahoma is. It was taken with a primitive 1999-vintage Vivitar digital camera, and it was getting dark, and I was driving at speed when I took the picture, so it had an unusual effect. Somebody years ago described it as "psychedelic". It's not one of my "better" pictures but it's one of my favorites.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7674/17423416358_c8e8359b65_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:47:11 PM
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:47:11 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2023, 09:33:44 PM
My number for the US 412 corridor has always been Interstate 46, although any even number between 42 and 62 would work. As for the highways designated along Tulsa's IDL, the only place I could see them being moved to would be back on their original alignments through town.
46 would have probably been the best number for the road, even though I was rooting for 50. It could use any number between 42 and 62 as you said, but 54 and 56 wouldn't be acceptable because US 54 and 56 go through the Panhandle. 60 wouldn't be because it would run parallel to US 60, which runs 20-30 miles north of US 412, and 62 wouldn't be because it would be 15 miles from US 62. Yes, I know US 49/I-49, US 24/I-24, US 41/I-41 and US 74/I-74, but those are violations and having a US highway in the same state or even in the same county should not be the new paradigm and should be avoided at all costs, especially if there are this many acceptable numbers available. That means 46, 48, 50, 52 or 58 would be acceptable. 46 would be the most rational, but 50 was my sentimental favorite. So hopefully AASHTO will tell ODOT to change the number of this, I-335 and I-344. I-335 should be I-835 and I-344 should be I-640 and the Kilpatrick should swap designations at I-40.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Henry on October 13, 2023, 09:56:35 PM
Post by: Henry on October 13, 2023, 09:56:35 PM
I'm fine with I-42 being signed in NC, but I'm not a huge fan of it being signed in OK. Although most of it will be south of I-44, I would've preferred for it to be signed as either I-46 or I-48, if not I-50.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 12, 2023, 09:26:09 PMI-30 was wasted on a route from DFW to Little Rock, which is clearly not cross-country, but no one is complaining about that.Quote from: bugoI-50 fits into the grid as well as any number does. It will be north of I-44 and south of I-70. And they're not going to build a cross country I-50, so why save it for an occasion which will likely never happen?
An "I-50" designation would imply major route importance. The fact that certain people are campaigning for that number only goes to prove my point. US-412 from Tulsa to Springdale is extremely NOT an important Interstate route. If we can get away with calling that "I-50" then that standard would open other ridiculous possibilities. Some jackass (a politician most likely) could come along and suggest something like the WA-16 freeway from Tacoma to Bremerton be labeled as Interstate 1.
Not all one thru ninety-nine digits need to be used up in Interstate highway designations. Considering how the US highway system has had so many routes decommissioned and cannibalized, maybe this situation could be something which helps protect US-50.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:57:26 PM
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:57:26 PM
Here's a view of the Cimarron Turnpike back when it still had a narrow raised grassy median. You can see that there was no margin for error when passing big trucks. It was scary.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4027/4671619813_0f0acdb89d_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4027/4671619813_0f0acdb89d_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 10:21:10 PM
Post by: bugo on October 13, 2023, 10:21:10 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2023, 04:39:52 PM
Is Oklahoma like to co-sign US 412 and future Interstate 42 together? How good is the state about co-signing Interstates with State and US Highways?
Very, very good. I-444 isn't signed, but virtually all follow routes are signed. OK 66 wasn't signed along I-44 in Tulsa and Oklahoma City for a long time, but for at least 15 years it has been religiously signed in Tulsa. It wasn't signed in Oklahoma City until the new signs were put up in the late 2010s, but it is at least partially signed now according to Street View.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on October 13, 2023, 10:47:01 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 13, 2023, 10:47:01 PM
Quote from: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:47:11 PM
It could use any number between 42 and 62 as you said, but 54 and 56 wouldn't be acceptable because US 54 and 56 go through the Panhandle. 60 wouldn't be because it would run parallel to US 60, which runs 20-30 miles north of US 412, and 62 wouldn't be because it would be 15 miles from US 62.
Like ODOT cares—we already have an OK 54 and OK 56, US 266 and OK 266 are a couple of counties away from each other, and US 270 and OK 270 are within a few miles of each other.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 14, 2023, 12:10:20 AM
Post by: bugo on October 14, 2023, 12:10:20 AM
US 412 has been rerouted in Hoxie and Walnut Ridge, It now follows US 63 and US 67 (Future I-57) and the old highway is now US 412B. Here is an excerpt from the newest ArDOT control section map showing US 412B through Walnut Ridge.
(https://i.imgur.com/7u6epWm.png)
Here is the relevant minute order.
(https://i.imgur.com/1iFghOs.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/7u6epWm.png)
Here is the relevant minute order.
(https://i.imgur.com/1iFghOs.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 14, 2023, 01:53:57 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 14, 2023, 01:53:57 PM
Quote from: HenryI-30 was wasted on a route from DFW to Little Rock, which is clearly not cross-country, but no one is complaining about that.
Plenty of people have complained about I-30 not being a cross-country route. While that major Interstate is short in length the route makes up for it with importance. It originates in the nation's 4th most populated metro. Both ends of I-30 are at major Interstates, I-20 and I-40. The US-412 route from Tulsa to Springdale meets none of that criteria to deserve a major route designation like I-50 or I-60.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on October 14, 2023, 01:57:20 PM
Post by: intelati49 on October 14, 2023, 01:57:20 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 14, 2023, 01:53:57 PMYeah. 30 is so highly traveled for how "short" it is.Quote from: HenryI-30 was wasted on a route from DFW to Little Rock, which is clearly not cross-country, but no one is complaining about that.
Plenty of people have complained about I-30 not being a cross-country route. While that major Interstate is short in length the route makes up for it with importance. It originates in the nation's 4th most populated metro. Both ends of I-30 are at major Interstates, I-20 and I-40. The US-412 route from Tulsa to Springdale meets none of that criteria to deserve a major route designation like I-50 or I-60.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: roadman65 on October 14, 2023, 04:13:35 PM
Post by: roadman65 on October 14, 2023, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 14, 2023, 01:53:57 PMQuote from: HenryI-30 was wasted on a route from DFW to Little Rock, which is clearly not cross-country, but no one is complaining about that.
Plenty of people have complained about I-30 not being a cross-country route. While that major Interstate is short in length the route makes up for it with importance. It originates in the nation's 4th most populated metro. Both ends of I-30 are at major Interstates, I-20 and I-40. The US-412 route from Tulsa to Springdale meets none of that criteria to deserve a major route designation like I-50 or I-60.
Then you have I-45 that is supposed to do the same, but north to south. It gets a five ending number and goes only 300 plus miles and don't even leave the state it originated from. It should have been given I-41 with I-49 given the I-45 designation instead. However I-49 is a Johnny Come Lately with it only conceived in part in the early eighties with it only recently given a longer corridor.
However you have two interstates now ending in 9 that are to be longer than one interstate ending in 5. That's not what a 5 ending interstate is to be, but what a zero ending interstate does E-W but instead N-S.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Molandfreak on October 14, 2023, 05:08:06 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on October 14, 2023, 05:08:06 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 14, 2023, 01:53:57 PMIt originates in the nation's 4th most populated metro.Then why didn't the New York metro get I-85, I-95, I-70, and I-80? There was no reason DFW had to hog all the major interstates, while entire states like Wisconsin got completely shafted as a result of this.
At least this serves a major metro area that does not have a major interstate. Neither I-30 nor I-45 do this, so in my book that instantly makes it less of a joke than both of them.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: I-55 on October 14, 2023, 07:17:53 PM
Post by: I-55 on October 14, 2023, 07:17:53 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 14, 2023, 04:13:35 PM
However you have two interstates now ending in 9 that are to be longer than one interstate ending in 5. That's not what a 5 ending interstate is to be, but what a zero ending interstate does E-W but instead N-S.
Just for fun, there are currently six interstates that end in 9 are longer than I-45 (I-29, 39, 49, 59, 69, 79). I-69, I-81, and I-29 are longer than I-85, and all other x5's are longer than any other non x5.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 14, 2023, 10:30:18 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 14, 2023, 10:30:18 PM
Quote from: roadman65Then you have I-45 that is supposed to do the same, but north to south. It gets a five ending number and goes only 300 plus miles and don't even leave the state it originated from. It should have been given I-41 with I-49 given the I-45 designation instead.
At least I-45 has the potential of being extended North into Oklahoma and even Kansas (depending on what routes were overlapped and upgraded).
It's a little surprising I-45 wasn't proposed to extend North to Tulsa back when the Interstate highway system was first being planned. The Interstate Highway System was Dwight Eisenhower's "baby." Eisenhower was born in Denison, TX. That small city is next to the Red River and US-75 and US-69 converge there to cross the river. It's odd an Interstate highway is not signed thru Eisenhower's home town. But such a thing could happen.
Quote from: MolandfreakThen why didn't the New York metro get I-85, I-95, I-70, and I-80? There was no reason DFW had to hog all the major interstates, while entire states like Wisconsin got completely shafted as a result of this.
Geography.
The Greater New York metro is served by a lot of super highways, some of them major Interstates like I-95 and I-80 as well as "lesser" Interstates like I-78 and I-87. The I-81 and I-84 corridors function as regional bypasses for metro NYC.
I-85 was originally drawn up to span from I-65 to I-95. I-70 runs into the Baltimore and DC metro areas. I don't know why you say Wisconsin got shafted; that state has a lot of Interstate highway routes. I-90 just cuts across the Southern half of the state to provide a more direct route for traffic coming from Chicago to reach the Twin Cities.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on October 15, 2023, 12:05:34 AM
Post by: Road Hog on October 15, 2023, 12:05:34 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 14, 2023, 10:30:18 PMThat's a good point about Eisenhower's hometown not being served by his system. Except for the fact that Ike grew up in Abilene, Kansas and considered that his hometown. His birth in Denison was by happenstance.Quote from: roadman65Then you have I-45 that is supposed to do the same, but north to south. It gets a five ending number and goes only 300 plus miles and don't even leave the state it originated from. It should have been given I-41 with I-49 given the I-45 designation instead.
At least I-45 has the potential of being extended North into Oklahoma and even Kansas (depending on what routes were overlapped and upgraded).
It's a little surprising I-45 wasn't proposed to extend North to Tulsa back when the Interstate highway system was first being planned. The Interstate Highway System was Dwight Eisenhower's "baby." Eisenhower was born in Denison, TX. That small city is next to the Red River and US-75 and US-69 converge there to cross the river. It's odd an Interstate highway is not signed thru Eisenhower's home town. But such a thing could happen.Quote from: MolandfreakThen why didn't the New York metro get I-85, I-95, I-70, and I-80? There was no reason DFW had to hog all the major interstates, while entire states like Wisconsin got completely shafted as a result of this.
Geography.
The Greater New York metro is served by a lot of super highways, some of them major Interstate like I-95 and I-80 as well as "lesser" Interstates like I-78 and I-87. The I-81 and I-84 corridors function has regional bypasses for metro NYC.
I-85 was originally drawn up to span from I-65 to I-95. I-70 runs into the Baltimore and DC metro areas. I don't know why you say Wisconsin got shafted; that state has a lot of Interstate highway routes. I-90 just cuts across the Southern half of the state to provide a more direct route for traffic coming from Chicago to reach the Twin Cities.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: DJStephens on October 15, 2023, 11:04:51 AM
Post by: DJStephens on October 15, 2023, 11:04:51 AM
Quote from: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:57:26 PMHave long believed I-44 - from the MO state line to Tulsa, and also between Tulsa and OKC should have been completely rebuilt by now. Utilizing the wide ROW to construct new main lines mostly to the Outside of current narrow roadway cross sections. All new bridges and overpasses. Far greater horizontal clearances. Vertical curvature improvements (meaning wacking down hills and adding to fills) and some Horizontal clearance improvements as well. 85 mph design speed, with a 75 mph posted limit. Trucks probably less. This same approach could be used on the Cimarron as well as a few of the other aging turnpikes.
Here's a view of the Cimarron Turnpike back when it still had a narrow raised grassy median. You can see that there was no margin for error when passing big trucks. It was scary.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4027/4671619813_0f0acdb89d_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 15, 2023, 11:31:59 AM
Post by: bugo on October 15, 2023, 11:31:59 AM
Quote from: DJStephens on October 15, 2023, 11:04:51 AM
Have long believed I-44 - from the MO state line to Tulsa, and also between Tulsa and OKC should have been completely rebuilt by now. Utilizing the wide ROW to construct new main lines mostly to the Outside of current narrow roadway cross sections. All new bridges and overpasses. Far greater horizontal clearances. Vertical curvature improvements (meaning wacking down hills and adding to fills) and some Horizontal clearance improvements as well. 85 mph design speed, with a 75 mph posted limit. Trucks probably less. This same approach could be used on the Cimarron as well as a few of the other aging turnpikes.
That would cost billions of dollars, money the OTA doesn't have. If they did this, they would have to double the cost of tolls (which they kind of did with the scam known as Platepay) and it would take years to finish. Besides, I-44 in Oklahoma isn't that bad. If you ever take I-44 from Tulsa or OKC to St Louis, I-44 is fine in Oklahoma and in Missouri west of Springfield. But the part of I-44 from Springfield to St Louis is terrible. Oklahoma I-44 is a superspeedway compared to the sections of I-44 east of Springfield where it is crooked and choked with trucks that will cut you off and micropass the truck next to it. This used to be in large a US 66 expressway, designed before the Interstate system. I'd almost rather take US 60 to I-55 to avoid I-44 in Missouri.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on October 15, 2023, 01:12:42 PM
Post by: edwaleni on October 15, 2023, 01:12:42 PM
Quote from: bugo on October 15, 2023, 11:31:59 AM
But the part of I-44 from Springfield to St Louis is terrible. Oklahoma I-44 is a superspeedway compared to the sections of I-44 east of Springfield where it is crooked and choked with trucks that will cut you off and micropass the truck next to it. This used to be in large a US 66 expressway, designed before the Interstate system. I'd almost rather take US 60 to I-55 to avoid I-44 in Missouri.
x1000
Would love to run a cost to build analysis on what it would take to remove some of that nonsense.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 15, 2023, 02:33:36 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 15, 2023, 02:33:36 PM
Quote from: DJStephensHave long believed I-44 - from the MO state line to Tulsa, and also between Tulsa and OKC should have been completely rebuilt by now. Utilizing the wide ROW to construct new main lines mostly to the Outside of current narrow roadway cross sections.
Even if the OTA had the money to do that such a thing the task would arguably be wasteful. All the grading and drainage work would have to be completely redone to physically separate the EB and WB lanes into discrete roadways. And more ROW would have to be acquired in some places. The ROW widths for I-44 across Oklahoma vary a great deal. There are stretches where the ROW is 300' or even 350' wide. That does make it look weird for the EB and WB lanes to be butted up together, only separated by a concrete Jersey barrier. Lots of other segments have ROW widths of 250' or only 200'. The Turner Turnpike has ROW sections that get pretty narrow.
Quote from: bugoThat would cost billions of dollars, money the OTA doesn't have. If they did this, they would have to double the cost of tolls (which they kind of did with the scam known as Platepay) and it would take years to finish.
I don't mind the PlatePay tolls being roughly double the PikePass rate. There are two valid reasons to justify that high PlatePay cost. First, it obviously provides a clear incentive for procrastinators to stop piddling around and get a PikePass account or a compatible toll tag from an agency in another state.
The second reason is mis-reads and admin work involved at dealing with them. It's not easy for a camera system optically reading license plates to work 100% of the time. The camera system may glitch out. Some vehicles are dirty and have grungy plates. Even if the license plates are in great condition there are lots of different kinds of plates just within Oklahoma. OK state plates can be ordered in a variety of designs. Add to that all the different tribal license plates. A certain amount of tolls end up not being collected. That high PlatePay costs makes up for that to some degree.
It's also worth mentioning the PlatePay cost on Oklahoma's turnpikes is more in line with what tolls cost on most other turnpikes in the country even if you are using their toll tag. Our PikePass toll rates are a bargain.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on October 15, 2023, 09:45:55 PM
Post by: rte66man on October 15, 2023, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on October 15, 2023, 11:04:51 AMQuote from: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:57:26 PMHave long believed I-44 - from the MO state line to Tulsa, and also between Tulsa and OKC should have been completely rebuilt by now. Utilizing the wide ROW to construct new main lines mostly to the Outside of current narrow roadway cross sections. All new bridges and overpasses. Far greater horizontal clearances. Vertical curvature improvements (meaning wacking down hills and adding to fills) and some Horizontal clearance improvements as well. 85 mph design speed, with a 75 mph posted limit. Trucks probably less. This same approach could be used on the Cimarron as well as a few of the other aging turnpikes.
Here's a view of the Cimarron Turnpike back when it still had a narrow raised grassy median. You can see that there was no margin for error when passing big trucks. It was scary.
<snipped>
Now that the OK Supreme Court has OK'ed the sale of Access Oklahoma bonds. the rest of the Turner will be upgraded from west of Kellyville to OKC. It will match the part already upgraded (jersey barriers, 6 lanes with room to expand to 8, etc.). You can already see where the RoW has been acquired near Bristow as the fences have all been pushed back.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: will_e_777 on October 16, 2023, 12:24:04 AM
Post by: will_e_777 on October 16, 2023, 12:24:04 AM
is it going to have freeway lighting the entire way between Tulsa and OKC?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 16, 2023, 02:16:20 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 16, 2023, 02:16:20 AM
Quote from: will_e_777 on October 16, 2023, 12:24:04 AMI-44? Yes
is it going to have freeway lighting the entire way between Tulsa and OKC?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: roadman65 on October 16, 2023, 07:44:11 AM
Post by: roadman65 on October 16, 2023, 07:44:11 AM
Quote from: DJStephens on October 15, 2023, 11:04:51 AMQuote from: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:57:26 PMHave long believed I-44 - from the MO state line to Tulsa, and also between Tulsa and OKC should have been completely rebuilt by now. Utilizing the wide ROW to construct new main lines mostly to the Outside of current narrow roadway cross sections. All new bridges and overpasses. Far greater horizontal clearances. Vertical curvature improvements (meaning wacking down hills and adding to fills) and some Horizontal clearance improvements as well. 85 mph design speed, with a 75 mph posted limit. Trucks probably less. This same approach could be used on the Cimarron as well as a few of the other aging turnpikes.
Here's a view of the Cimarron Turnpike back when it still had a narrow raised grassy median. You can see that there was no margin for error when passing big trucks. It was scary.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4027/4671619813_0f0acdb89d_c.jpg)
Near Miami they've replaced two overpasses that I know to the standard 16' 5" clearance and left room for expansion. So probably they'll upgrade a few at a time and slowly change the freeway to more modern standards. I just hope they don't tear down the Vinita Service Area despite it being narrow underneath for expansion and the 50s era 14 feet headroom, as that plaza is a classic feature of that turnpike.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 16, 2023, 11:23:24 AM
Post by: bugo on October 16, 2023, 11:23:24 AM
The Vinita service plaza was rebuilt about a decade ago and the new arched building over the highway was opened in late 2014.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 16, 2023, 12:27:33 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 16, 2023, 12:27:33 PM
The Vinita Service Plaza is on the Will Rogers Turnpike. Currently the Turner Turnpike between OKC and Tulsa is set for a complete 3x3 lanes upgrade.
If the OTA does expand portions of the Will Rogers Turnpike to a 3x3 lanes configuration it does look like such a thing could fit under the recently re-built arched building over the highway. It looks like there is several feet of space past the Jersey barriers at the far left and far right going under the building. It will probably be a really long time before OTA does any expansion like that there. Under the current Access Oklahoma plan I-44 would be widened to 3x3 from the US-412 interchange at Catoosa up to the SH-20 exit at Claremore.
Is that written down anywhere on the plans? It would be nice if the future 3x3 upgrades on I-44 included the overhead lights installed on the concrete Jersey barrier. It adds a nice visual touch and makes that portion of I-44 just West of Tulsa feel more like a major Interstate highway. But I wouldn't expect OTA to install those lights the whole way between OKC and Tulsa. Going East of OKC I could see the overhead lights being installed from I-35 to the Kickapoo Turnpike interchange or maybe as far east as the Wellston exit. Going West of Tulsa I could imagine OTA ditching the lights at the Bristow exit. Overhead lights would be good going thru the Stroud exit (where the service plaza and toll gate is located).
If the OTA does expand portions of the Will Rogers Turnpike to a 3x3 lanes configuration it does look like such a thing could fit under the recently re-built arched building over the highway. It looks like there is several feet of space past the Jersey barriers at the far left and far right going under the building. It will probably be a really long time before OTA does any expansion like that there. Under the current Access Oklahoma plan I-44 would be widened to 3x3 from the US-412 interchange at Catoosa up to the SH-20 exit at Claremore.
Quote from: will_e_777is it going to have freeway lighting the entire way between Tulsa and OKC?Quote from: Plutonic PandaI-44? Yes
Is that written down anywhere on the plans? It would be nice if the future 3x3 upgrades on I-44 included the overhead lights installed on the concrete Jersey barrier. It adds a nice visual touch and makes that portion of I-44 just West of Tulsa feel more like a major Interstate highway. But I wouldn't expect OTA to install those lights the whole way between OKC and Tulsa. Going East of OKC I could see the overhead lights being installed from I-35 to the Kickapoo Turnpike interchange or maybe as far east as the Wellston exit. Going West of Tulsa I could imagine OTA ditching the lights at the Bristow exit. Overhead lights would be good going thru the Stroud exit (where the service plaza and toll gate is located).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 16, 2023, 01:17:30 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 16, 2023, 01:17:30 PM
^^^^ I asked the OTA about it and that's what they told me. I'm not sure if there are any official plans yet due to the delayed plan which is now moving forward again.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 16, 2023, 07:16:33 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 16, 2023, 07:16:33 PM
It will be interesting to see what the OTA ends up doing. I wouldn't object to them installing overhead lights along the entire length of the Turner Turnpike. But I'll be surprised if they actually follow through on that. I'm thankful OTA at least has plans in motion to widen that turnpike to 3x3 lanes the entire length. The Turner Turnpike is certainly busy enough to justify it. The highway feels really cramped for space in its current 2x2 configuration. The portion that opens up to 3x3 seems like a big relief when you get to it.
Overhead lights will improve night time driving safety wherever they're installed. But I can just imagine some people in Oklahoma who like to gripe about "government waste," pointing to that kind of big city highway design style out in a rural area as being a wasteful extravagance.
Overhead lights will improve night time driving safety wherever they're installed. But I can just imagine some people in Oklahoma who like to gripe about "government waste," pointing to that kind of big city highway design style out in a rural area as being a wasteful extravagance.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on October 16, 2023, 09:50:36 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 16, 2023, 09:50:36 PM
It will also be interesting to see how long they work if they are installed. I'm not sure about Tulsa, but OKC has many sections of disabled lighting because the wire has been stolen from them. Any attempt to get it fixed gets you a nice game of pass-the-buck between ODOT, the city government, and OG&E.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2023, 02:09:13 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2023, 02:09:13 AM
They said more information could come out around October/November and that they'll focus on the OKC projects and I-44 between OKC and Tulsa so we'll see.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on October 17, 2023, 12:34:19 PM
Post by: intelati49 on October 17, 2023, 12:34:19 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2023, 02:09:13 AM
They said more information could come out around October/November and that they'll focus on the OKC projects and I-44 between OKC and Tulsa so we'll see.
Any notes for Siloam Springs? Just looking to see if I can get a jump start on my thoughts.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 17, 2023, 01:52:45 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 17, 2023, 01:52:45 PM
I suspect the Siloam Springs Bypass will be the last segment of the US 412 Interstate Upgrade that will be constructed. I would imagine they'd start on the western-most segment of the proposed Interstate and work their way eastward.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2023, 01:58:29 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2023, 01:58:29 PM
Quote from: intelati49 on October 17, 2023, 12:34:19 PMI have no idea about that one. I'm excited to hear about it myself.Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2023, 02:09:13 AM
They said more information could come out around October/November and that they'll focus on the OKC projects and I-44 between OKC and Tulsa so we'll see.
Any notes for Siloam Springs? Just looking to see if I can get a jump start on my thoughts.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: yakra on October 17, 2023, 09:51:31 PM
Post by: yakra on October 17, 2023, 09:51:31 PM
Quote from: bugo on October 13, 2023, 09:01:55 PM1999? Holy blap! What did that bad boy use for storage media? How many images could it hold?Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2023, 04:39:52 PM
Is Oklahoma like to co-sign US 412 and future Interstate 42 together? How good is the state about co-signing Interstates with State and US Highways?
I took this picture a couple of weeks after I-540 was extended from Van Buren to Rogers, in 1999. It didn't go all the way to Bella Vista, it ended at the US 62 interchange and the freeway to the north was signed as solo US 71. When I-540 was renamed to I-49, it replaced the US 71 freeway between US 62 and then US 71B. This sign assembly probably didn't last long, but it's a rare glimpse into a fantastical world where Arkansas is as religious as signing highway overlaps as Oklahoma is. It was taken with a primitive 1999-vintage Vivitar digital camera, and it was getting dark, and I was driving at speed when I took the picture, so it had an unusual effect. Somebody years ago described it as "psychedelic". It's not one of my "better" pictures but it's one of my favorites.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7674/17423416358_c8e8359b65_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 17, 2023, 11:00:51 PM
Post by: bugo on October 17, 2023, 11:00:51 PM
Quote from: yakra on October 17, 2023, 09:51:31 PM
1999? Holy blap! What did that bad boy use for storage media? How many images could it hold?
It had 2 MB of built in memory, which held 32 images in normal quality or 16 images in "fine mode". It used a serial cable to connect to a computer. All images were 640x480 resolution. It used 4 AA batteries, which went dead within 5 minutes of using the camera. I still have the camera somewhere.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on October 19, 2023, 06:08:44 PM
Post by: edwaleni on October 19, 2023, 06:08:44 PM
https://www.fox23.com/news/busy-tulsa-highway-could-become-oklahomas-newest-interstate/article_661988ba-6e11-11ee-9104-373d5129f7a5.html (https://www.fox23.com/news/busy-tulsa-highway-could-become-oklahomas-newest-interstate/article_661988ba-6e11-11ee-9104-373d5129f7a5.html)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 19, 2023, 06:28:08 PM
Post by: bugo on October 19, 2023, 06:28:08 PM
Here is a link (https://www.vpioutreach.com/public/comment/project-comment-dynamic?project_id=14807) to a comment form for the US 412 project. I sent them a comment saying that I thought the numbers 46, 48 and 50 were better numbers than 42 for this road, and that I thought so because of the I-42 in North Carolina. If you think those numbers fit the road better, send a comment to them. It can't hurt.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on October 19, 2023, 07:47:54 PM
Post by: intelati49 on October 19, 2023, 07:47:54 PM
Lines on a map would have made the meeting a whole lot more interesting to me.
There were also a few concerns from citizens that may have been more directly addressed or evidence that would qualm said concerns if there were lines on the map to point to more directly than the existing route
It was interesting seeing a state representative there. I'll have to look her up and figure out her district.
There were also a few concerns from citizens that may have been more directly addressed or evidence that would qualm said concerns if there were lines on the map to point to more directly than the existing route
It was interesting seeing a state representative there. I'll have to look her up and figure out her district.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 19, 2023, 08:49:34 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 19, 2023, 08:49:34 PM
Quote from: intelati49 on October 19, 2023, 07:47:54 PM
Lines on a map would have made the meeting a whole lot more interesting to me.
There were also a few concerns from citizens that may have been more directly addressed or evidence that would qualm said concerns if there were lines on the map to point to more directly than the existing route
It was interesting seeing a state representative there. I'll have to look her up and figure out her district.
That meeting happens in Mar./Apr. Apparently, this one is just to see the few things that they've ruled out like trains/buses/bicycles as potential solutions, so this seems to mainly be mainly about getting comments to figure out support for things like a bypass of Siloam Springs, which will be the last thing that happens. What I gathered from this meeting is that other than the western leg of the Springdale Northern Bypass, nothing happens in Arkansas for the next decade, which essentially makes this process moot as they'll have to start it over by then with Siloam Springs growing by 50% between now and then.
Unfortunately a state representative won't really be of use for funding this. It'll take federal earmarks for it to happen before I-49 or I-57 get completed.
I see Oklahoma signing the I-35 to I-44 portion with whatever number they deem as Arkansas is pretty much paying lip service at this point.
Ex-commissioner Barnett was there and discussed why they 6-laned Siloam Springs back in '06 rather than select any of the bypasses which would have made this project much more feasible within the decade. No support from any of the residents nor the city on any of the bypasses, either north or south, and the LOS was D at that point, with growth showing F within 5 years, so their hand was pretty much forced, and thus the flaming turd of a conundrum we face now. Any northern bypass will go past Gentry, so unless they do new terrain along AR-264/AR-12 with the facility taking a northern turn just past the XNA connector from the looks of it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 20, 2023, 12:36:27 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 20, 2023, 12:36:27 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on October 19, 2023, 06:08:44 PMThanks for posting that. it also shows that Panasonic is still in top of building a plant in Pryor which would be a pretty big deal for the area.
https://www.fox23.com/news/busy-tulsa-highway-could-become-oklahomas-newest-interstate/article_661988ba-6e11-11ee-9104-373d5129f7a5.html (https://www.fox23.com/news/busy-tulsa-highway-could-become-oklahomas-newest-interstate/article_661988ba-6e11-11ee-9104-373d5129f7a5.html)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: mvak36 on October 20, 2023, 12:41:11 PM
Post by: mvak36 on October 20, 2023, 12:41:11 PM
Quote from: bugo on October 19, 2023, 06:28:08 PM
Here is a link (https://www.vpioutreach.com/public/comment/project-comment-dynamic?project_id=14807) to a comment form for the US 412 project. I sent them a comment saying that I thought the numbers 46, 48 and 50 were better numbers than 42 for this road, and that I thought so because of the I-42 in North Carolina. If you think those numbers fit the road better, send a comment to them. It can't hurt.
Thanks for the link. I left them a comment and told them pretty much the same thing. But I am wondering if they already submitted their application to AASHTO for this fall's meeting.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: DJStephens on October 20, 2023, 03:03:11 PM
Post by: DJStephens on October 20, 2023, 03:03:11 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 19, 2023, 08:49:34 PMSounds very similar to the US - 69 Muskogee situation. Kick the can down the road. Like most parts of the country this is not an area that is suitable for "transit" or bicycle solutions. Stripe some bike lanes? Sure. But provide an adequate ROW width. Do they have a city bus service? Is it utilized at all? Many pie in the sky "planner" or "engineer" types completely overlook dismal transit usage numbers. And continue for push for "road diets" and other design regressive solutions that increase congestion.Quote from: intelati49 on October 19, 2023, 07:47:54 PM
Lines on a map would have made the meeting a whole lot more interesting to me.
There were also a few concerns from citizens that may have been more directly addressed or evidence that would qualm said concerns if there were lines on the map to point to more directly than the existing route
It was interesting seeing a state representative there. I'll have to look her up and figure out her district.
That meeting happens in Mar./Apr. Apparently, this one is just to see the few things that they've ruled out like trains/buses/bicycles as potential solutions, so this seems to mainly be mainly about getting comments to figure out support for things like a bypass of Siloam Springs, which will be the last thing that happens. What I gathered from this meeting is that other than the western leg of the Springdale Northern Bypass, nothing happens in Arkansas for the next decade, which essentially makes this process moot as they'll have to start it over by then with Siloam Springs growing by 50% between now and then.
Unfortunately a state representative won't really be of use for funding this. It'll take federal earmarks for it to happen before I-49 or I-57 get completed.
I see Oklahoma signing the I-35 to I-44 portion with whatever number they deem as Arkansas is pretty much paying lip service at this point.
Ex-commissioner Barnett was there and discussed why they 6-laned US - 412 within Siloam Springs back in '06 rather than select any of the bypasses which would have made this project much more feasible within the decade. No support from any of the residents nor the city on any of the bypasses, either north or south, and the LOS was D at that point, with growth showing F within 5 years, so their hand was pretty much forced, and thus the flaming turd of a conundrum we face now. Any northern bypass will go past Gentry, so unless they do new terrain along AR-264/AR-12 with the facility taking a northern turn just past the XNA connector from the looks of it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 20, 2023, 04:03:32 PM
Post by: swake on October 20, 2023, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 19, 2023, 08:49:34 PMQuote from: intelati49 on October 19, 2023, 07:47:54 PM
Lines on a map would have made the meeting a whole lot more interesting to me.
There were also a few concerns from citizens that may have been more directly addressed or evidence that would qualm said concerns if there were lines on the map to point to more directly than the existing route
It was interesting seeing a state representative there. I'll have to look her up and figure out her district.
That meeting happens in Mar./Apr. Apparently, this one is just to see the few things that they've ruled out like trains/buses/bicycles as potential solutions, so this seems to mainly be mainly about getting comments to figure out support for things like a bypass of Siloam Springs, which will be the last thing that happens. What I gathered from this meeting is that other than the western leg of the Springdale Northern Bypass, nothing happens in Arkansas for the next decade, which essentially makes this process moot as they'll have to start it over by then with Siloam Springs growing by 50% between now and then.
Unfortunately a state representative won't really be of use for funding this. It'll take federal earmarks for it to happen before I-49 or I-57 get completed.
I see Oklahoma signing the I-35 to I-44 portion with whatever number they deem as Arkansas is pretty much paying lip service at this point.
Ex-commissioner Barnett was there and discussed why they 6-laned Siloam Springs back in '06 rather than select any of the bypasses which would have made this project much more feasible within the decade. No support from any of the residents nor the city on any of the bypasses, either north or south, and the LOS was D at that point, with growth showing F within 5 years, so their hand was pretty much forced, and thus the flaming turd of a conundrum we face now. Any northern bypass will go past Gentry, so unless they do new terrain along AR-264/AR-12 with the facility taking a northern turn just past the XNA connector from the looks of it.
In 10 years Oklahoma will have it signed all the way to within 8 miles of the Arkansas state line.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: splashflash on October 20, 2023, 04:55:37 PM
Post by: splashflash on October 20, 2023, 04:55:37 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on October 20, 2023, 03:03:11 PMThe situation is better than US 69 is now. ODOT has tens of millions penned in for 2025 for widening the main throughfare in Muskogee, according to the 8 Year Plan. Say goodbye to an interstate for decades unless the eastern bypass using the Muskogee Turnpike comes about. Same thing is planned for Tushka.Quote from: MikieTimT on October 19, 2023, 08:49:34 PMSounds very similar to the US - 69 Muskogee situation. Kick the can down the road. Like most parts of the country this is not an area that is suitable for "transit" or bicycle solutions. Stripe some bike lanes? Sure. But provide an adequate ROW width. Do they have a city bus service? Is it utilized at all? Many pie in the sky "planner" or "engineer" types completely overlook dismal transit usage numbers. And continue for push for "road diets" and other design regressive solutions that increase congestion.Quote from: intelati49 on October 19, 2023, 07:47:54 PM
Lines on a map would have made the meeting a whole lot more interesting to me.
There were also a few concerns from citizens that may have been more directly addressed or evidence that would qualm said concerns if there were lines on the map to point to more directly than the existing route
It was interesting seeing a state representative there. I'll have to look her up and figure out her district.
That meeting happens in Mar./Apr. Apparently, this one is just to see the few things that they've ruled out like trains/buses/bicycles as potential solutions, so this seems to mainly be mainly about getting comments to figure out support for things like a bypass of Siloam Springs, which will be the last thing that happens. What I gathered from this meeting is that other than the western leg of the Springdale Northern Bypass, nothing happens in Arkansas for the next decade, which essentially makes this process moot as they'll have to start it over by then with Siloam Springs growing by 50% between now and then.
Unfortunately a state representative won't really be of use for funding this. It'll take federal earmarks for it to happen before I-49 or I-57 get completed.
I see Oklahoma signing the I-35 to I-44 portion with whatever number they deem as Arkansas is pretty much paying lip service at this point.
Ex-commissioner Barnett was there and discussed why they 6-laned US - 412 within Siloam Springs back in '06 rather than select any of the bypasses which would have made this project much more feasible within the decade. No support from any of the residents nor the city on any of the bypasses, either north or south, and the LOS was D at that point, with growth showing F within 5 years, so their hand was pretty much forced, and thus the flaming turd of a conundrum we face now. Any northern bypass will go past Gentry, so unless they do new terrain along AR-264/AR-12 with the facility taking a northern turn just past the XNA connector from the looks of it.
An interstate right-of-way could be secured fairly easily along the airport south boundary from AR-612, no? That could be a separate project, really if the powers that be wanted it.
The way to get around that is to run a new alignment directly north to Coalgate to US 75 or connect over to the Indian Nation Turnpike well south of McAlester
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on October 20, 2023, 10:12:15 PM
Post by: edwaleni on October 20, 2023, 10:12:15 PM
More press, this time about the ARDOT public hearing on US-412 to an Interstate.
https://www.5newsonline.com/article/traffic/ardot-highway-412-interstate/527-1842ce29-49ec-4044-8082-db3b5097f0a8 (https://www.5newsonline.com/article/traffic/ardot-highway-412-interstate/527-1842ce29-49ec-4044-8082-db3b5097f0a8)
SILOAM SPRINGS, Ark. — The Arkansas Department of Transportation (ARDOT) is holding an in-person meeting discussing a plan to turn U.S. Highway 412 into an interstate.
ARDOT is working with the Oklahoma Department of Transportation to study the feasibility of a future interstate from Insterstate-35 in Oklahoma to Interstate-49 in Arkansas, which is about 190 miles.
This is the second meeting that discusses the plan titled the U.S. Highway 412 Planning and Environmental Linkages Study. At the first meeting, ARDOT presented the plan draft laying out the Need and Baseline Conditions Report.
In this meeting, which is taking place at John Brown University inside the Simmons Great Hall on Thursday, Oct. 19 from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m., attendees will review the methodology of the plan describing how "transportation solutions are being evaluated for potential implementation on U.S. Highway 412," ARDOT said.
Dave Parker, Public Information Officer with ARDOT said this area was deemed of "high importance" in the Infrastructure Investment and JOBS Act signed into Law by President Biden.
He said this is only the second meeting in a deal that could take decades to finish.
"It's hard to imagine some of this when you think it's gonna be 20 to 30 years until all this is done. Just think about how Interstate 49 came to be," said Parker. "Sure, it's going to take a long time, but you have to start somewhere."
He said ARDOT will be doing planning environmental studies in the area.
"We look at the groundwater, we look at the land, we look at the air, we look at nature in that area, and all that's way before we even look at the design of the road, and impact to businesses or homes. That has to come first."
ARDOT says the public can make comments until Tuesday, Oct. 31, 2023.
The public can submit online comment forms directly to ARDOT or print them and mail them to ARDOT Environmental Division, 10324 Interstate 30, Little Rock, AR 72209.
https://www.5newsonline.com/article/traffic/ardot-highway-412-interstate/527-1842ce29-49ec-4044-8082-db3b5097f0a8 (https://www.5newsonline.com/article/traffic/ardot-highway-412-interstate/527-1842ce29-49ec-4044-8082-db3b5097f0a8)
SILOAM SPRINGS, Ark. — The Arkansas Department of Transportation (ARDOT) is holding an in-person meeting discussing a plan to turn U.S. Highway 412 into an interstate.
ARDOT is working with the Oklahoma Department of Transportation to study the feasibility of a future interstate from Insterstate-35 in Oklahoma to Interstate-49 in Arkansas, which is about 190 miles.
This is the second meeting that discusses the plan titled the U.S. Highway 412 Planning and Environmental Linkages Study. At the first meeting, ARDOT presented the plan draft laying out the Need and Baseline Conditions Report.
In this meeting, which is taking place at John Brown University inside the Simmons Great Hall on Thursday, Oct. 19 from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m., attendees will review the methodology of the plan describing how "transportation solutions are being evaluated for potential implementation on U.S. Highway 412," ARDOT said.
Dave Parker, Public Information Officer with ARDOT said this area was deemed of "high importance" in the Infrastructure Investment and JOBS Act signed into Law by President Biden.
He said this is only the second meeting in a deal that could take decades to finish.
"It's hard to imagine some of this when you think it's gonna be 20 to 30 years until all this is done. Just think about how Interstate 49 came to be," said Parker. "Sure, it's going to take a long time, but you have to start somewhere."
He said ARDOT will be doing planning environmental studies in the area.
"We look at the groundwater, we look at the land, we look at the air, we look at nature in that area, and all that's way before we even look at the design of the road, and impact to businesses or homes. That has to come first."
ARDOT says the public can make comments until Tuesday, Oct. 31, 2023.
The public can submit online comment forms directly to ARDOT or print them and mail them to ARDOT Environmental Division, 10324 Interstate 30, Little Rock, AR 72209.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 20, 2023, 10:52:20 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 20, 2023, 10:52:20 PM
20-30 years? Unlike I-49 in the 1980's, it's not like they're going to have to build the proposed Interstate on an almost completely new-terrain path. Most of the highway's path already exists.
The Cimarron Turnpike needs just a few minor upgrades (which are already in progress). Some work is needed between the East end of that turnpike and downtown Tulsa. There's the gap between I-44 in Catoosa and the West end of the Cherokee Turnpike. That's a fairly easy upgrade to build. The hard part is building the last few miles from the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike in Dripping Springs to the Arkansas border. And then AR DOT has to do its part with a bypass of Siloam Springs. That shouldn't take 20-30 years to complete.
Of course, during the past 30 years the US government has become very deficient at planning and building infrastructure (like highways) with the future in mind. Instead, policy makers have been pandering to voters with tax cut candy. At the same time they're creating more and more red tape. With that in mind, yeah, I guess a "simple project" like this could indeed take 30 years to complete. When this nation was great at building big things a project like this could be knocked out in handful of years rather than a handful of decades.
The Cimarron Turnpike needs just a few minor upgrades (which are already in progress). Some work is needed between the East end of that turnpike and downtown Tulsa. There's the gap between I-44 in Catoosa and the West end of the Cherokee Turnpike. That's a fairly easy upgrade to build. The hard part is building the last few miles from the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike in Dripping Springs to the Arkansas border. And then AR DOT has to do its part with a bypass of Siloam Springs. That shouldn't take 20-30 years to complete.
Of course, during the past 30 years the US government has become very deficient at planning and building infrastructure (like highways) with the future in mind. Instead, policy makers have been pandering to voters with tax cut candy. At the same time they're creating more and more red tape. With that in mind, yeah, I guess a "simple project" like this could indeed take 30 years to complete. When this nation was great at building big things a project like this could be knocked out in handful of years rather than a handful of decades.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on October 20, 2023, 11:09:06 PM
Post by: intelati49 on October 20, 2023, 11:09:06 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 20, 2023, 10:52:20 PM
20-30 years? Unlike I-49 in the 1980's, it's not like they're going to have to build the proposed Interstate on an almost completely new-terrain path. Most of the highway's path already exists.
...
The hard part is building the last few miles from the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike in Dripping Springs to the Arkansas border. And then AR DOT has to do its part with a bypass of Siloam Springs. That shouldn't take 20-30 years to complete.
Yes, it shouldn't, but this is the first spurt of momentum this job has had in 30 years (the last major study mentioned was in 09?)
If the support is there financially, then it can be "begun" in those 30 years. (Think the Bella Vista bypass super 2)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: splashflash on October 21, 2023, 01:26:32 AM
Post by: splashflash on October 21, 2023, 01:26:32 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 19, 2023, 08:49:34 PM
Any northern bypass will go past Gentry, so unless they do new terrain along AR-264/AR-12 with the facility taking a northern turn just past the XNA connector from the looks of it.
A northern bypass could perhaps wrap in as a western access to the XNA airport, with a soon-to-be connector from the east and also the south (AR-612 extension), no? Maybe the airport authority could pitch western access and include funding.
https://www.eagleobserver.com/news/2022/jul/06/new-access-road-to-northwest-arkansas-national/
(https://wehco.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/imports/adg/photos/201688174_061622-NW-XNA-ROAD_t800.jpg?90232451fbcadccc64a17de7521d859a8f88077d)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rothman on October 21, 2023, 04:42:37 AM
Post by: Rothman on October 21, 2023, 04:42:37 AM
Sounds like ARDOT is pursuing preservation first with its system without saying it outright.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: vdeane on October 21, 2023, 09:23:58 AM
Post by: vdeane on October 21, 2023, 09:23:58 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 20, 2023, 10:52:20 PMARDOT's plate is currently full at the moment, so it's taking a back seat to I-49, I-57, and the project currently on the docket for i-69.
20-30 years? Unlike I-49 in the 1980's, it's not like they're going to have to build the proposed Interstate on an almost completely new-terrain path. Most of the highway's path already exists.
The Cimarron Turnpike needs just a few minor upgrades (which are already in progress). Some work is needed between the East end of that turnpike and downtown Tulsa. There's the gap between I-44 in Catoosa and the West end of the Cherokee Turnpike. That's a fairly easy upgrade to build. The hard part is building the last few miles from the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike in Dripping Springs to the Arkansas border. And then AR DOT has to do its part with a bypass of Siloam Springs. That shouldn't take 20-30 years to complete.
Of course, during the past 30 years the US government has become very deficient at planning and building infrastructure (like highways) with the future in mind. Instead, policy makers have been pandering to voters with tax cut candy. At the same time they're creating more and more red tape. With that in mind, yeah, I guess a "simple project" like this could indeed take 30 years to complete. When this nation was great at building big things a project like this could be knocked out in handful of years rather than a handful of decades.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 21, 2023, 05:35:26 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 21, 2023, 05:35:26 PM
Will the NWA access road have a state highway designation?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 21, 2023, 05:40:28 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 21, 2023, 05:40:28 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 21, 2023, 05:35:26 PM
Will the NWA access road have a state highway designation?
If I were to wager, it'd be AR-980 just like the rest of them.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Arkansas_980%28Airport%29.svg/80px-Arkansas_980%28Airport%29.svg.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on October 21, 2023, 05:41:15 PM
Post by: intelati49 on October 21, 2023, 05:41:15 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 21, 2023, 05:35:26 PMHmm. Never asked. XNA access.
Will the NWA access road have a state highway designation?
But nothing I've seen has a number..
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 21, 2023, 06:05:01 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 21, 2023, 06:05:01 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 21, 2023, 09:23:58 AMQuote from: Bobby5280 on October 20, 2023, 10:52:20 PMARDOT's plate is currently full at the moment, so it's taking a back seat to I-49, I-57, and the project currently on the docket for i-69.
20-30 years? Unlike I-49 in the 1980's, it's not like they're going to have to build the proposed Interstate on an almost completely new-terrain path. Most of the highway's path already exists.
The Cimarron Turnpike needs just a few minor upgrades (which are already in progress). Some work is needed between the East end of that turnpike and downtown Tulsa. There's the gap between I-44 in Catoosa and the West end of the Cherokee Turnpike. That's a fairly easy upgrade to build. The hard part is building the last few miles from the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike in Dripping Springs to the Arkansas border. And then AR DOT has to do its part with a bypass of Siloam Springs. That shouldn't take 20-30 years to complete.
Of course, during the past 30 years the US government has become very deficient at planning and building infrastructure (like highways) with the future in mind. Instead, policy makers have been pandering to voters with tax cut candy. At the same time they're creating more and more red tape. With that in mind, yeah, I guess a "simple project" like this could indeed take 30 years to complete. When this nation was great at building big things a project like this could be knocked out in handful of years rather than a handful of decades.
As much as I would like the US-412 upgrade to proceed apace, it's pretty much another Congressional unfunded mandate like 1991 ISTEA on a section of the same HPC#8 corridor with a western extension past Tulsa. Back when this country was great at building large projects, it was a time when the feds funded the interstates at 90% dedicated funding instead of the maybe 80% funding with block grants of today that states can spread around their highway system to a great extent. Our national debt and deficit are far too high today to ever get back to those days, especially with our country demographically shrinking each generation with immigration being the only thing saving our bacon right now. So, unless money falls from Uncle Sam's arse for this project, it takes a back burner on the Arkansas side, which makes signing anything between I-44 and I-49 as a 2DI suspect for quite some time.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 22, 2023, 04:46:19 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on October 22, 2023, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: MikieTimTOur national debt and deficit are far too high today to ever get back to those days, especially with our country demographically shrinking each generation with immigration being the only thing saving our bacon right now.
For the past 50 years all of the net population growth in the US has come via immigration. And now even immigration isn't enough since the people who have been arriving are having fewer children. Everybody knows it costs a shit-ton to raise children in the US. Too many people are being priced out of parenthood, American-born citizens and immigrants alike.
Despite demographic decline and an eventual shrinking US population the government does have some choices it can make. Small towns and rural areas have been bleeding away population. There is a gravitational pull to bigger cities and suburbs. That's going to translate into further disinvestment in the roads and bridges in rural areas. That will free up money for more prominent highway corridors.
Of course, working age generations can expect to see their tax bills get hiked in the future. And retired age will be forced to take a bite of the shit sandwich too. Both major political parties have been blindly pursuing the goal of absolute single party rule. If that ever happens, or if our government becomes an authoritarian dictatorship everyone will be paying far more in taxes.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 27, 2023, 02:57:05 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 27, 2023, 02:57:05 PM
We're still due a recession/depression shortly as interest rates can't keep escalating and anyone be able to buy anything on credit, including governments. Things will start slowing down on the construction front everywhere that isn't already paid for after New Year's, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 27, 2023, 03:35:35 PM
Post by: swake on October 27, 2023, 03:35:35 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 27, 2023, 02:57:05 PM
We're still due a recession/depression shortly as interest rates can't keep escalating and anyone be able to buy anything on credit, including governments. Things will start slowing down on the construction front everywhere that isn't already paid for after New Year's, I'm afraid.
Unemployment is at 3.8% with many industries reporting worker shortages
GDP growth in Q2 was up a massive 4.9%
Inflation is now in check at a .4% growth last month (3.7% YOY)
Regardless of what Fox tells you, the economy is absolutely booming with no end in sight. Fox has been predicting a recession since the day Biden was elected, it keeps not happening.
Even if the economy starts to slow, the fed now has a very long runway of possible rate reductions to spur the economy. We are very far from a recession now. And with worker and goods shortages there is no foreseeable path to a deflationary economy (a depression).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on October 27, 2023, 10:51:15 PM
Post by: bugo on October 27, 2023, 10:51:15 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 21, 2023, 05:40:28 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on October 21, 2023, 05:35:26 PMIf I were to wager, it'd be AR-980 just like the rest of them.
Will the NWA access road have a state highway designation?
I doubt it, unless it is unsigned. Airport 980s are usually connectors to small local airports. The Little Rock, Fort Smith, Texarkana and Jonesboro airports don't have Airport 980s. An Airport 980 shield wouldn't contrast well on a green sign.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 29, 2023, 07:06:06 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 29, 2023, 07:06:06 PM
Since the rest of the AR 612/future US 412 Springdale Northern Bypass has no further construction dates, the airport access road likely won't be built anytime soon either. Hopefully they don't develop the proposed right-of-way in the meantime.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: splashflash on October 29, 2023, 09:42:06 PM
Post by: splashflash on October 29, 2023, 09:42:06 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 29, 2023, 07:06:06 PMAre you sure? https://www.5newsonline.com/article/traffic/xna-access-road-gets-closer-to-construction-date/527-e38f3a44-b4dd-46f2-b937-de0cc64355da The airport CEO seems to have though otherwise.
Since the rest of the AR 612/future US 412 Springdale Northern Bypass has no further construction dates, the airport access road likely won't be built anytime soon either. Hopefully they don't develop the proposed right-of-way in the meantime.
From the story - Construction on the access road is expected to be completed by early 2027. Construction and right-of-way acquisition is estimated to cost between $90 and $100 million dollars. This is being funded by the Renew Arkansas Highways Program that voters approved through the extension of the half-cent sales tax.
The airport seems to have already donated 55 acres of land.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 30, 2023, 10:36:45 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 30, 2023, 10:36:45 AM
I admit I was speculating when I made my comment. I have never been to that area, and made the assumption that since the AR 612 freeway won't be extended anytime soon, the access road wouldn't be built soon either. I will be more careful in my predictions in the future.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on October 30, 2023, 02:46:46 PM
Post by: edwaleni on October 30, 2023, 02:46:46 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 30, 2023, 10:36:45 AM
I admit I was speculating when I made my comment. I have never been to that area, and made the assumption that since the AR 612 freeway won't be extended anytime soon, the access road wouldn't be built soon either. I will be more careful in my predictions in the future.
I think the rest of the Springdale Northern Bypass is a known entity down to US-412, but until now, the airport access issue was not, hence stopping where they did.
I also would like to believe that ArDOT would like to know where the future I road from Oklahoma is going to route before they bring the bypass down all the way.
Before the highway bill hit Congress, it appeared the bypass would simply shift west and into the existing US-412 near Old Hwy 68. That might change now if an I route is planned.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on October 30, 2023, 03:21:41 PM
Post by: swake on October 30, 2023, 03:21:41 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on October 30, 2023, 02:46:46 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on October 30, 2023, 10:36:45 AM
I admit I was speculating when I made my comment. I have never been to that area, and made the assumption that since the AR 612 freeway won't be extended anytime soon, the access road wouldn't be built soon either. I will be more careful in my predictions in the future.
I think the rest of the Springdale Northern Bypass is a known entity down to US-412, but until now, the airport access issue was not, hence stopping where they did.
I also would like to believe that ArDOT would like to know where the future I road from Oklahoma is going to route before they bring the bypass down all the way.
Before the highway bill hit Congress, it appeared the bypass would simply shift west and into the existing US-412 near Old Hwy 68. That might change now if an I route is planned.
I think that's backwards. Oklahoma is most likely just going to extend the turnpike to wherever Arkansas is able to route the bypass. Arkansas is paying as they go for free roads and has to deal with development which is mostly non-existent on the Oklahoma side of the state line.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on October 30, 2023, 06:40:39 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on October 30, 2023, 06:40:39 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 30, 2023, 10:36:45 AM
I admit I was speculating when I made my comment. I have never been to that area, and made the assumption that since the AR 612 freeway won't be extended anytime soon, the access road wouldn't be built soon either. I will be more careful in my predictions in the future.
Don't know where that idea would come from. The western leg of AR-612 (US-412 Springdale Northern Bypass) that the XNA access road connects to is funded at $100M for FFY 2025 according to the 2023-2026 STIP Line #7 (https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/Final-2023-2026-STIP-Project-List-General-Version.xlsx).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: roadman65 on November 01, 2023, 04:09:01 PM
Post by: roadman65 on November 01, 2023, 04:09:01 PM
Will I-240 in Tulsa overlap then with I-42 or will I-240 get truncated?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on November 01, 2023, 05:23:58 PM
Post by: bugo on November 01, 2023, 05:23:58 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 01, 2023, 04:09:01 PM
Will I-240 in Tulsa overlap then with I-42 or will I-240 get truncated?
I-240 doesn't go through Tulsa, it goes through OKC. I assume you meant I-244, and yes, I-42 will be a follow route of I-244, which means I-244 will be the internally cataloged number for the route, and I-42 will just be signed along I-244.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 03, 2023, 05:05:47 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 03, 2023, 05:05:47 PM
ARDOT reviewing bids for 2024 start of Springdale Northern Bypass (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=34017.msg2881479#msg2881479)
Arkansas finally has concrete timelines published for the next leg. Apparently will have almost a mile's worth of bridges for the 7 miles of facility.
Arkansas finally has concrete timelines published for the next leg. Apparently will have almost a mile's worth of bridges for the 7 miles of facility.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 03, 2023, 11:44:56 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 03, 2023, 11:44:56 PM
Quote from: splashflash on October 21, 2023, 01:26:32 AM
(https://wehco.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/imports/adg/photos/201688174_061622-NW-XNA-ROAD_t800.jpg?90232451fbcadccc64a17de7521d859a8f88077d)
Comparing the XNA decision to the approved bypass alignment.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284231506_da946c9fcf_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 03, 2023, 11:55:40 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 03, 2023, 11:55:40 PM
Here is where the XNA exit would intersect on the current bypass plan between Robbins and Marchant.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53308354668_6a96985f02_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53308354668_6a96985f02_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 04, 2023, 01:21:03 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 04, 2023, 01:21:03 AM
Quote from: swake on October 30, 2023, 03:21:41 PMYou think they will extend the turnpike? Isn't ODOT doing this project? They can't build turnpikes or anything with tolls.Quote from: edwaleni on October 30, 2023, 02:46:46 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on October 30, 2023, 10:36:45 AM
I admit I was speculating when I made my comment. I have never been to that area, and made the assumption that since the AR 612 freeway won't be extended anytime soon, the access road wouldn't be built soon either. I will be more careful in my predictions in the future.
I think the rest of the Springdale Northern Bypass is a known entity down to US-412, but until now, the airport access issue was not, hence stopping where they did.
I also would like to believe that ArDOT would like to know where the future I road from Oklahoma is going to route before they bring the bypass down all the way.
Before the highway bill hit Congress, it appeared the bypass would simply shift west and into the existing US-412 near Old Hwy 68. That might change now if an I route is planned.
I think that's backwards. Oklahoma is most likely just going to extend the turnpike to wherever Arkansas is able to route the bypass. Arkansas is paying as they go for free roads and has to deal with development which is mostly non-existent on the Oklahoma side of the state line.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on November 04, 2023, 08:26:29 AM
Post by: intelati49 on November 04, 2023, 08:26:29 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 03, 2023, 11:55:40 PMhttps://xnaaccess.blob.core.windows.net/uploads/f0b6e9f4-766f-400f-a889-29e71792ba50-XNAAccess_090069_VDPH_RollPlot.pdf
Here is where the XNA exit would intersect on the current bypass plan between Robbins and Marchant.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53308354668_6a96985f02_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 04, 2023, 09:33:20 AM
Post by: edwaleni on November 04, 2023, 09:33:20 AM
Thanks, much better!!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on November 04, 2023, 09:34:24 AM
Post by: intelati49 on November 04, 2023, 09:34:24 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 04, 2023, 09:33:20 AMFor future posterity, I have the file in my archives. If it ever disappears, I can always post it again.
Thanks, much better!!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 06, 2023, 10:35:13 AM
Post by: edwaleni on November 06, 2023, 10:35:13 AM
IMHO: Development is going to boom in this area with such easy access to XNA and the city proper. Look for retail development on Robbins and Marchant right after this is built.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53314099145_d1b9b7bf03_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53314099145_d1b9b7bf03_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 07, 2023, 12:06:56 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 07, 2023, 12:06:56 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 06, 2023, 10:35:13 AM
IMHO: Development is going to boom in this area with such easy access to XNA and the city proper. Look for retail development on Robbins and Marchant right after this is built.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53314099145_d1b9b7bf03_b.jpg)
That's why Springdale snapped up as much as it could along AR-612 a couple of years back. AR-112 north of US-412 is pretty much solidly within some city limits all the way to its northern terminus, with Rogers jutting between 2 blocks of Cave Springs. Everything is growing to the west in NWA as that's all it can do with I-49 mostly built up now and Beaver Lake on the east side limiting growth to the east.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: triplemultiplex on November 07, 2023, 01:56:01 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on November 07, 2023, 01:56:01 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 06, 2023, 10:35:13 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53314099145_d1b9b7bf03_b.jpg)
Based on this, I'm going to start adding an "I-546" to my fictional mapping. ;)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on November 07, 2023, 01:57:52 PM
Post by: intelati49 on November 07, 2023, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on November 07, 2023, 01:56:01 PMI'm hoping for I-249 myself. Think biggerQuote from: edwaleni on November 06, 2023, 10:35:13 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53314099145_d1b9b7bf03_b.jpg)
Based on this, I'm going to start adding an "I-546" to my fictional mapping. ;)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on November 07, 2023, 03:01:42 PM
Post by: bugo on November 07, 2023, 03:01:42 PM
The airport connector would be an x42 and not an x49, because it won't connect to I-49.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: jlam on November 07, 2023, 03:23:41 PM
Post by: jlam on November 07, 2023, 03:23:41 PM
Quote from: bugo on November 07, 2023, 03:01:42 PMIt could if you think bigger.
The airport connector would be an x42 and not an x49, because it won't connect to I-49.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 07, 2023, 03:34:13 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 07, 2023, 03:34:13 PM
Quote from: jlam on November 07, 2023, 03:23:41 PMQuote from: bugo on November 07, 2023, 03:01:42 PMIt could if you think bigger.
The airport connector would be an x42 and not an x49, because it won't connect to I-49.
LOL, only if the road goes all the way to Bella Vista perhaps. How big must one think?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on November 07, 2023, 03:46:16 PM
Post by: intelati49 on November 07, 2023, 03:46:16 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 07, 2023, 03:34:13 PMBVB to a 62 Bypass (like 412)Quote from: jlam on November 07, 2023, 03:23:41 PMQuote from: bugo on November 07, 2023, 03:01:42 PMIt could if you think bigger.
The airport connector would be an x42 and not an x49, because it won't connect to I-49.
LOL, only if the road goes all the way to Bella Vista perhaps. How big must one think?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 07, 2023, 04:09:51 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 07, 2023, 04:09:51 PM
I highly doubt that the Airport Access Connector Road to the Northwest Arkansas National Airport will ever have an Interstate designation. It would either have a state highway designation, or no designation at all. I just hope the access road isn't named after Sam Walton.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on November 07, 2023, 04:51:41 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 07, 2023, 04:51:41 PM
Quote from: bugo on November 07, 2023, 03:01:42 PMHe's saying I-49 because of a hypothetically northern extension to the I-49 Belle Vista bypass to form a "loop" around Bentonville.
The airport connector would be an x42 and not an x49, because it won't connect to I-49.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 07, 2023, 05:26:52 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 07, 2023, 05:26:52 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 07, 2023, 04:51:41 PMQuote from: bugo on November 07, 2023, 03:01:42 PMHe's saying I-49 because of a hypothetically northern extension to the I-49 Belle Vista bypass to form a "loop" around Bentonville.
The airport connector would be an x42 and not an x49, because it won't connect to I-49.
Ah, the old 2011 NWARPC Western Beltway Feasibilty Study that was looking forward to 2030. Before we know it, that year will be here, but the road won't despite the population growth outstripping the projections. The access road has never been envisioned to be part of any beltway/bypass of I-49. It's always been just for airport access.
NWARPC Western Beltway Feasibility Study Pg. 55 of 103 (https://www.nwarpc.org/pdf/Federal%20Review/Western_Beltway_FinalReport.pdf)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Road Hog on November 10, 2023, 03:02:29 AM
Post by: Road Hog on November 10, 2023, 03:02:29 AM
I just looked at the NWA ArcGIS map and I noticed something weird: Not ONE municipality in either Benton or Washington Counties touches an arm of Beaver Lake as shown on the map, and none of them really even come close. What's the deal with that?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on November 10, 2023, 11:49:14 AM
Post by: intelati49 on November 10, 2023, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on November 10, 2023, 03:02:29 AM
I just looked at the NWA ArcGIS map and I noticed something weird: Not ONE municipality in either Benton or Washington Counties touches an arm of Beaver Lake as shown on the map, and none of them really even come close. What's the deal with that?
1. Prarie creek(?) comes the closest. I believe that is the Corps of Engineers "buffer" land around the lake.
2. Otherwise, Look again.
It gets real hilly real quickly.
You don't have a good continuous route for an "eastern" bypass of 49.
(https://i.imgur.com/jakl0o2.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 14, 2023, 06:24:44 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 14, 2023, 06:24:44 AM
I just had a horrible realization—it is entirely possible that ODOT asked for I-42 because they straight up did not check whether the number was already in use.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on November 14, 2023, 11:48:16 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 14, 2023, 11:48:16 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 14, 2023, 06:24:44 AMI'd believe it!
I just had a horrible realization—it is entirely possible that ODOT asked for I-42 because they straight up did not check whether the number was already in use.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 14, 2023, 11:53:41 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 14, 2023, 11:53:41 AM
Another possibility is they didn't care if it was already being used for a US Highway corridor in North Carolina (officially, North Carolina's Interstate 42 is still a future Interstate corridor, but signage for Interstate 42 is likely to be erected in the very near future). Of course, the numbering of the Interstate System does not disallow the usage of Interstates of the same number in different parts of the country, mostly because routes had to be renumbered to eliminate Interstate designations with suffixes.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on November 14, 2023, 06:18:50 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on November 14, 2023, 06:18:50 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 14, 2023, 11:48:16 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 14, 2023, 06:24:44 AMI'd believe it!
I just had a horrible realization—it is entirely possible that ODOT asked for I-42 because they straight up did not check whether the number was already in use.
Arkansas confirmed it, so it'd be 2 states whiffing on this one, if true. Although, it wouldn't be unprecedented for these 2 states to lack diligence on a thing.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2023, 05:37:42 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2023, 05:37:42 PM
I'd believe Arkansas just going along with what ODOT wanted because it was easier not to rock the boat.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2023, 05:56:04 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2023, 05:56:04 PM
So far, numbering the US 412 corridor as Interstate 42 is preliminary. There have been no official moves yet to give the 412 corridor any official designation. The only document giving the corridor a number is the one forementioned in this thread, and it will be some time before the 412 corridor officially gets a number proposed and picked. Until further notice, North Carolina's future Interstate 42 is the only official one that is being designated.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on November 15, 2023, 05:57:44 PM
Post by: bugo on November 15, 2023, 05:57:44 PM
I've seen the I-42 number show up in ArDOT documents.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: mvak36 on November 15, 2023, 06:14:50 PM
Post by: mvak36 on November 15, 2023, 06:14:50 PM
I believe the AASHTO meeting happened (or is happening still) this week. I figure I will wait a few weeks before asking them for the route numbering decisions. Although, if anyone wants to contact them before then, please feel free.
Maybe if enough of us ask, they will start posting the decisions on their website again.
Maybe if enough of us ask, they will start posting the decisions on their website again.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2023, 06:35:39 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2023, 06:35:39 PM
I looked up Interstate 42 on my Bing search engine and the only results that came up were about North Carolina's Interstate 42, not one about the future US 412 Interstate corridor in Oklahoma and Arkansas. While it may appear in Arkansas DOT documents, it is not yet an official designation. I stand by what I posted, although I do respect other posters' opinions.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on November 15, 2023, 10:14:02 PM
Post by: edwaleni on November 15, 2023, 10:14:02 PM
Quote from: mvak36 on November 15, 2023, 06:14:50 PM
I believe the AASHTO meeting happened (or is happening still) this week. I figure I will wait a few weeks before asking them for the route numbering decisions. Although, if anyone wants to contact them before then, please feel free.
Maybe if enough of us ask, they will start posting the decisions on their website again.
I already emailed them on it.
Also of note, An ArDOT Highway Planner is on the AASHTO Executive Committee.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2023, 11:30:14 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 15, 2023, 11:30:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2023, 05:56:04 PM
So far, numbering the US 412 corridor as Interstate 42 is preliminary. There have been no official moves yet to give the 412 corridor any official designation. The only document giving the corridor a number is the one forementioned in this thread, and it will be some time before the 412 corridor officially gets a number proposed and picked. Until further notice, North Carolina's future Interstate 42 is the only official one that is being designated.
The Oklahoma Transportation Commission voted to establish the I-42 designation through the same procedure that establishes Oklahoma state highway numbers. So it is at least as official as a state highway would be on the Oklahoma side. (Obviously, to be signed, it still needs AASHTO and FHWA approval.)
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/web-files/Sept%2011%202023%20Minutes%20-%20signed.pdf
(https://i.imgur.com/F0zY8EQ.png)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on November 17, 2023, 10:52:54 AM
Post by: bugo on November 17, 2023, 10:52:54 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2023, 06:35:39 PM
I looked up Interstate 42 on my Bing search engine and the only results that came up were about North Carolina's Interstate 42, not one about the future US 412 Interstate corridor in Oklahoma and Arkansas. While it may appear in Arkansas DOT documents, it is not yet an official designation. I stand by what I posted, although I do respect other posters' opinions.
At 10:35 in this video, the man clearly states that they are planning on signing US 412 as Future I-42. It isn't official with AASHTO or the FHWA yet, but all indications are that this road will indeed be signed as I-42, unless something changes, which is unlikely.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on November 23, 2023, 01:31:35 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 23, 2023, 01:31:35 PM
Quote from: bugo on November 17, 2023, 10:52:54 AM
At 10:35 in this video, the man clearly states that they are planning on signing US 412 as Future I-42.
QuoteIt isn't official with AASHTO or the FHWA yetIf AASHTO or the FHWA have not approved the designation, then it's not official yet nor will it be signed.
Once that approval happens, and hopefully AASHTO is wise to not approve the I-42 number, then it will be otherwise.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on November 23, 2023, 07:45:22 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 23, 2023, 07:45:22 PM
As shown above, in Oklahoma it is official at the state level, following the same process that would have been used if they had designated it OK-42 (though one already exists, not that that would stop them). All that is needed for that is the agreement of Messrs. Grimsley, Shannon, Freymiller, Dyson, Alexander, La Forge, and Peterson.
It just isn't official at the national level yet.
It just isn't official at the national level yet.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on November 24, 2023, 12:14:46 AM
Post by: swake on November 24, 2023, 12:14:46 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 23, 2023, 07:45:22 PM
As shown above, in Oklahoma it is official at the state level, following the same process that would have been used if they had designated it OK-42 (though one already exists, not that that would stop them). All that is needed for that is the agreement of Messrs. Grimsley, Shannon, Freymiller, Dyson, Alexander, La Forge, and Peterson.
It just isn't official at the national level yet.
And a designation is mandated by federal law. It doesn't have to be I-42, but there will be an interstate designation.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on November 24, 2023, 04:27:07 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 24, 2023, 04:27:07 AM
Quote from: swake on November 24, 2023, 12:14:46 AMI'm not saying there shouldn't be an interstate designation. Re-using I-42 is a poor choice, especially given there's a variety of other numbers available that are not duplicates.Quote from: Scott5114 on November 23, 2023, 07:45:22 PM
As shown above, in Oklahoma it is official at the state level, following the same process that would have been used if they had designated it OK-42 (though one already exists, not that that would stop them). All that is needed for that is the agreement of Messrs. Grimsley, Shannon, Freymiller, Dyson, Alexander, La Forge, and Peterson.
It just isn't official at the national level yet.
And a designation is mandated by federal law. It doesn't have to be I-42, but there will be an interstate designation.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 24, 2023, 05:33:23 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 24, 2023, 05:33:23 PM
Like it or not, it looks like there will be two Interstate 42s. Unless one of us can convince the-powers-that-be to pick another number, it looks like we'll be overruled.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on November 30, 2023, 09:25:31 AM
Post by: abqtraveler on November 30, 2023, 09:25:31 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 24, 2023, 05:33:23 PMI wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion that US-412 will become I-42, just because Oklahoma's choice is 42. I can give you plenty of examples where a state proposes a certain number for an interstate designation and the FHWA and AASHTO assign a different number. Here are just a couple of examples.
Like it or not, it looks like there will be two Interstate 42s. Unless one of us can convince the-powers-that-be to pick another number, it looks like we'll be overruled.
- North Carolina originally requested I-36 for upgrading US-70 between I-40 and New Bern; the FHWA and AASHTO approved I-42 instead
- Back in the 1980s, Connecticut and Massachusetts requested that I-290 be extended over CT/MA-52 from I-90 in Auburn, MA to I-95 in Waterford, CT. FHWA and AASHTO rejected that request and subsequently approved I-395 for that stretch.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on November 30, 2023, 04:02:58 PM
Post by: swake on November 30, 2023, 04:02:58 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on November 30, 2023, 09:25:31 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on November 24, 2023, 05:33:23 PMI wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion that US-412 will become I-42, just because Oklahoma's choice is 42. I can give you plenty of examples where a state proposes a certain number for an interstate designation and the FHWA and AASHTO assign a different number. Here are just a couple of examples.
Like it or not, it looks like there will be two Interstate 42s. Unless one of us can convince the-powers-that-be to pick another number, it looks like we'll be overruled.
- North Carolina originally requested I-36 for upgrading US-70 between I-40 and New Bern; the FHWA and AASHTO approved I-42 instead
- Back in the 1980s, Connecticut and Massachusetts requested that I-290 be extended over CT/MA-52 from I-90 in Auburn, MA to I-95 in Waterford, CT. FHWA and AASHTO rejected that request and subsequently approved I-395 for that stretch.
I hope so, because if I-42 sticks, there will be an interchange in east Tulsa where I-44, I-244 and I-42 all meet. That couldn't possibly be confusing could it?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on November 30, 2023, 04:21:01 PM
Post by: bugo on November 30, 2023, 04:21:01 PM
I'd be surprised if AASHTO makes them change the number. AASHTO has bent over for North Carolina, rubber stamping requests for a ton of ridiculous Interstates, and has only made them change one number. It's not something that has been done a lot historically.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 30, 2023, 04:56:36 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 30, 2023, 04:56:36 PM
AASHTO has also rubber stamped some ridiculous Interstate numbers in Texas as well, especially the 27E/27W and 69E/69C/69W suffix routes. In any event, I also doubt that AASTHO won't approve the Interstate 42 designation. Besides, it will be quite some time before we see any Interstate signs (or future Interstate signs) along the US 412 corridor. They better get a move on upgrading US 412 to Interstate Standards (especially between Tulsa and Fayetteville).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on November 30, 2023, 05:42:36 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 30, 2023, 05:42:36 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 30, 2023, 04:56:36 PMFairly certain both of those situations were Congressionally designated.
AASHTO has also rubber stamped some ridiculous Interstate numbers in Texas as well, especially the 27E/27W and 69E/69C/69W suffix routes.
Quote from: bugo on November 30, 2023, 04:21:01 PMSuch as?
I'd be surprised if AASHTO makes them change the number. AASHTO has bent over for North Carolina, rubber stamping requests for a ton of ridiculous Interstates,
Quoteand has only made them change one number. It's not something that has been done a lot historically.AASHTO made them change I-89 to I-87, and I-36 to I-42. It was done with both of those additions.
AASHTO would be wise to change this so-called I-42 proposal to I-46 or I-48, to avoid unnecessary duplication.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: plain on November 30, 2023, 06:36:02 PM
Post by: plain on November 30, 2023, 06:36:02 PM
They obviously didn't care about duplication in I-87's case.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on November 30, 2023, 06:39:50 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 30, 2023, 06:39:50 PM
Quote from: plain on November 30, 2023, 06:36:02 PMI guess in the case of sticking with north-south, there really wasn't any options. But I agree, I-89 or I-91 would've been better suited.
They obviously didn't care about duplication in I-87's case.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on November 30, 2023, 07:39:17 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on November 30, 2023, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 30, 2023, 06:39:50 PMI would have numbered the North Carolina I-87 either I-97 since most of it lies east of I-95, or perhaps some even number between 46 and 62, since the route is mostly east-west from Raleigh to Elizabeth City, with just the short stretch from Elizabeth City to Norfolk being north-south.Quote from: plain on November 30, 2023, 06:36:02 PMI guess in the case of sticking with north-south, there really wasn't any options. But I agree, I-89 or I-91 would've been better suited.
They obviously didn't care about duplication in I-87's case.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rothman on December 01, 2023, 12:18:23 AM
Post by: Rothman on December 01, 2023, 12:18:23 AM
Getting off-topic in this thread.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on December 01, 2023, 03:02:00 AM
Post by: bugo on December 01, 2023, 03:02:00 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 01, 2023, 12:18:23 AM
Getting off-topic in this thread.
OK moderator.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on December 01, 2023, 07:25:05 AM
Post by: edwaleni on December 01, 2023, 07:25:05 AM
Stir the pot?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7291/28126889946_87e7423fb7_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7291/28126889946_87e7423fb7_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 01, 2023, 03:52:57 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 01, 2023, 03:52:57 PM
That sign had been replaced with this future Interstate 42 sign when the Google Car went through in August 2018: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6311811,-78.5565571,3a,75y,102.57h,71.25t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVYH7L5-49K5IqpJNAJmZzw!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu. And even that sign was removed to accommodate construction of NC 540 when the Google Car last came through there in May 2023: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6311858,-78.5565714,3a,75y,101.31h,80.43t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sPBEhERJ4xhK8TUg3reYMAA!2e0!5s20230501T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. If the Interstate 42 designation is ultimately the one chosen to be co-signed with US 412 along its Interstate 35-to-Interstate 49 segment, I expect it will be quite some time before we see any future Interstate 42 signs in Oklahoma or Arkansas. After all, it's only been about 2 and a half years since the legislation to designate that segment of the US 412 corridor as a future Interstate was introduced.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 01, 2023, 09:47:26 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 01, 2023, 09:47:26 PM
If we do see any I-42 signs in Oklahoma it may be along the lines of I-69 in Mississippi: just one or more short segments signed.
I can imagine a scenario of the Cimarron Turnpike being signed as I-42 within the next couple or so years. It starts at I-35. That's one requirement. Most of the work is finished on converting the toll plazas to cashless operation. There's only a short stretch of road that still has the narrow grassy median. Once that's done it should qualify as Interstate quality. I can see certain people in Stillwater, particularly bosses at Oklahoma State University, exerting pressure on the state government to get that turnpike signed as I-42 and maybe even sign the Stillwater spur as an Interstate highway too.
In this scenario I-42 would end at the East end of the Cimarron Turnpike where US-64 splits from US-412. East of there the Sand Springs Expressway needs a good bit of work in order to get I-42 signed into downtown Tulsa.
I can imagine a scenario of the Cimarron Turnpike being signed as I-42 within the next couple or so years. It starts at I-35. That's one requirement. Most of the work is finished on converting the toll plazas to cashless operation. There's only a short stretch of road that still has the narrow grassy median. Once that's done it should qualify as Interstate quality. I can see certain people in Stillwater, particularly bosses at Oklahoma State University, exerting pressure on the state government to get that turnpike signed as I-42 and maybe even sign the Stillwater spur as an Interstate highway too.
In this scenario I-42 would end at the East end of the Cimarron Turnpike where US-64 splits from US-412. East of there the Sand Springs Expressway needs a good bit of work in order to get I-42 signed into downtown Tulsa.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on December 02, 2023, 01:07:39 AM
Post by: edwaleni on December 02, 2023, 01:07:39 AM
Yes, I knew the sign was old and from North Carolina.
I just wanted to make some people laugh since the I number seems to be a big deal at the moment.
I just wanted to make some people laugh since the I number seems to be a big deal at the moment.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Henry on December 02, 2023, 04:07:25 AM
Post by: Henry on December 02, 2023, 04:07:25 AM
The way I see it, they may have no choice but to accept I-42, since most of it will be south of I-44, and thus the only number that fits the grid. Then it'll be the first time that the same future 2di is designated on two noncontiguous sections at the same time, with one in NC and the other in OK and AR.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 02, 2023, 02:08:31 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 02, 2023, 02:08:31 PM
I-69 has disconnected future segments. The intention is to have them all connected from South Texas to Indianapolis one day. Hell may freeze over before I-69 gets built thru NE Mississippi, much less the segments across Southern Arkansas and NW Louisiana. It appears likely the I-69 routes in Texas will get finished before all the other stuff in Tennessee, Mississippi, Arkansas and Louisiana. Kentucky isn't taking their portion of I-69 seriously either.
Then we have the I-74 thing in North Carolina that probably will never be connected to the original one that ends in Cincinnati. Dual I-87 routes is another new one. We already had dual routes for I-76, I-84, I-86 and I-88. With that in mind, I don't think a duplicate I-42 in Oklahoma is going to be a problem. An I-42 route spanning I-35 in Oklahoma to I-49 in Springdale would be significantly longer than the Intra-state route in North Carolina. Plus, the I-42 route in Oklahoma would have some potential for expansion. It wouldn't be difficult at all (in terms of ROW acquisition) to extend I-42 West to Enid and then to Woodward. I strongly believe there should be a diagonal Interstate running from Oklahoma City to Denver. An I-42 route ending in Woodward would compliment such a route.
Then we have the I-74 thing in North Carolina that probably will never be connected to the original one that ends in Cincinnati. Dual I-87 routes is another new one. We already had dual routes for I-76, I-84, I-86 and I-88. With that in mind, I don't think a duplicate I-42 in Oklahoma is going to be a problem. An I-42 route spanning I-35 in Oklahoma to I-49 in Springdale would be significantly longer than the Intra-state route in North Carolina. Plus, the I-42 route in Oklahoma would have some potential for expansion. It wouldn't be difficult at all (in terms of ROW acquisition) to extend I-42 West to Enid and then to Woodward. I strongly believe there should be a diagonal Interstate running from Oklahoma City to Denver. An I-42 route ending in Woodward would compliment such a route.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: vdeane on December 02, 2023, 04:43:23 PM
Post by: vdeane on December 02, 2023, 04:43:23 PM
Quote from: Henry on December 02, 2023, 04:07:25 AMMeasuring it out, it's roughly 50/50. One could just as easily claim I-42 doesn't fit the grid and that I-46 would be better.
The way I see it, they may have no choice but to accept I-42, since most of it will be south of I-44, and thus the only number that fits the grid. Then it'll be the first time that the same future 2di is designated on two noncontiguous sections at the same time, with one in NC and the other in OK and AR.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on December 02, 2023, 09:46:32 PM
Post by: swake on December 02, 2023, 09:46:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 02, 2023, 04:43:23 PMQuote from: Henry on December 02, 2023, 04:07:25 AMMeasuring it out, it's roughly 50/50. One could just as easily claim I-42 doesn't fit the grid and that I-46 would be better.
The way I see it, they may have no choice but to accept I-42, since most of it will be south of I-44, and thus the only number that fits the grid. Then it'll be the first time that the same future 2di is designated on two noncontiguous sections at the same time, with one in NC and the other in OK and AR.
It's actually about 95 miles north of I-44, 5 miles would be concurrent and 90 miles south of I-44.
Just call it I-50
Most of the Cimarron could be signed now. As well as the section from OK-97 in Sand Springs to the I-44 split in Catoosa and the entire Cherokee turnpike. Altogether almost 100 miles can be signed immediately.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on December 03, 2023, 08:09:01 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on December 03, 2023, 08:09:01 PM
Quote from: Henry on December 02, 2023, 04:07:25 AMNot necessarily. It's important to note that I-44 is the oddball here, given that it runs on the diagonal path from Wichita Falls, TX (well south of I-40) northeast to St. Louis, MO (at I-70, and north of I-64). So they could theoretically pick any available number from 42 to 52 and be fine (there are already US routes 54, 56, 60, and 62 in Oklahoma).
The way I see it, they may have no choice but to accept I-42, since most of it will be south of I-44, and thus the only number that fits the grid. Then it'll be the first time that the same future 2di is designated on two noncontiguous sections at the same time, with one in NC and the other in OK and AR.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 04, 2023, 04:26:02 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 04, 2023, 04:26:02 PM
This comment isn't about the roadway, but about the subject's headline: Why is there always a space between the number 412 and the word Upgrade? Every time I add a response to this subject, I have to eliminate the space between the number 412 and the word Upgrade. Is there any way to fix this so I (and others) can respond without having to delete an unnecessary space between the number and the last word in the subject headline?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: hotdogPi on December 04, 2023, 04:27:26 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on December 04, 2023, 04:27:26 PM
On my browser, the two spaces in a row appears as a single space and is indistinguishable from a single space.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on December 04, 2023, 07:17:24 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on December 04, 2023, 07:17:24 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on December 03, 2023, 08:09:01 PMQuote from: Henry on December 02, 2023, 04:07:25 AMNot necessarily. It's important to note that I-44 is the oddball here, given that it runs on the diagonal path from Wichita Falls, TX (well south of I-40) northeast to St. Louis, MO (at I-70, and north of I-64). So they could theoretically pick any available number from 42 to 52 (except 44) and be fine (there are already US routes 54, 56, 60, and 62 in Oklahoma).
The way I see it, they may have no choice but to accept I-42, since most of it will be south of I-44, and thus the only number that fits the grid. Then it'll be the first time that the same future 2di is designated on two noncontiguous sections at the same time, with one in NC and the other in OK and AR.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on December 04, 2023, 10:01:21 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 04, 2023, 10:01:21 PM
https://transportation.org/route/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/12/Final_Report_USRN_Fall_2023_R_1.pdf
It appears Oklahoma and Arkansas have withdrawn their application?
It appears Oklahoma and Arkansas have withdrawn their application?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 04, 2023, 10:14:36 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 04, 2023, 10:14:36 PM
I guess it looks that way. NC might have I-42 all to itself after all.
The Cimarron Turnpike is almost ready to be signed as an Interstate. I think those last bits of narrow grassy median need to be replaced with concrete and cable barriers to reach current standards. Since one end of the turnpike touches an Interstate (I-35) it should qualify for Interstate signing.
US-412 from the end of the Cimarron Turnpike to the IDL in Tulsa has a lot of sub-standard shoulders, some very sub-standard ramps and one at-grade intersection just East of the Arkansas River crossing. All that stuff has to be fixed to meet current Interstate standards.
I wouldn't see any benefit of installing new Interstate route signs within Tulsa until that Sand Springs-Catoosa segment can connect with other signed segments of that possible future route.
The 26 or so miles of US-412 from Catoosa to Choteau (where the Cherokee Turnpike begins) looks easy enough to upgrade via not needing much, if any, new ROW. But it's still 26+ miles of 4-lane divided highway where intersections have to be converted to limited access exits, bridged over/under or cut off. I can imagine ODOT taking a long time to get that work done.
Quote from: swakeMost of the Cimarron could be signed now. As well as the section from OK-97 in Sand Springs to the I-44 split in Catoosa and the entire Cherokee turnpike. Altogether almost 100 miles can be signed immediately.
The Cimarron Turnpike is almost ready to be signed as an Interstate. I think those last bits of narrow grassy median need to be replaced with concrete and cable barriers to reach current standards. Since one end of the turnpike touches an Interstate (I-35) it should qualify for Interstate signing.
US-412 from the end of the Cimarron Turnpike to the IDL in Tulsa has a lot of sub-standard shoulders, some very sub-standard ramps and one at-grade intersection just East of the Arkansas River crossing. All that stuff has to be fixed to meet current Interstate standards.
I wouldn't see any benefit of installing new Interstate route signs within Tulsa until that Sand Springs-Catoosa segment can connect with other signed segments of that possible future route.
The 26 or so miles of US-412 from Catoosa to Choteau (where the Cherokee Turnpike begins) looks easy enough to upgrade via not needing much, if any, new ROW. But it's still 26+ miles of 4-lane divided highway where intersections have to be converted to limited access exits, bridged over/under or cut off. I can imagine ODOT taking a long time to get that work done.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 04, 2023, 11:10:34 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 04, 2023, 11:10:34 PM
Come on I-50! I-50!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on December 04, 2023, 11:19:10 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on December 04, 2023, 11:19:10 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 04, 2023, 10:14:36 PMI wouldn't be surprised if Oklahoma somehow get the OTC to finance interstate upgrades to the non-tolled sections of 412. Guess it depends on how bad they want to get it done.
I guess it looks that way. NC might have I-42 all to itself after all.Quote from: swakeMost of the Cimarron could be signed now. As well as the section from OK-97 in Sand Springs to the I-44 split in Catoosa and the entire Cherokee turnpike. Altogether almost 100 miles can be signed immediately.
The Cimarron Turnpike is almost ready to be signed as an Interstate. I think those last bits of narrow grassy median need to be replaced with concrete and cable barriers to reach current standards. Since one end of the turnpike touches an Interstate (I-35) it should qualify for Interstate signing.
US-412 from the end of the Cimarron Turnpike to the IDL in Tulsa has a lot of sub-standard shoulders, some very sub-standard ramps and one at-grade intersection just East of the Arkansas River crossing. All that stuff has to be fixed to meet current Interstate standards.
I wouldn't see any benefit of installing new Interstate route signs within Tulsa until that Sand Springs-Catoosa segment can connect with other signed segments of that possible future route.
The 26 or so miles of US-412 from Catoosa to Choteau (where the Cherokee Turnpike begins) looks easy enough to upgrade via not needing much, if any, new ROW. But it's still 26+ miles of 4-lane divided highway where intersections have to be converted to limited access exits, bridged over/under or cut off. I can imagine ODOT taking a long time to get that work done.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on December 05, 2023, 12:22:08 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 05, 2023, 12:22:08 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 04, 2023, 04:26:02 PM
This comment isn't about the roadway, but about the subject's headline: Why is there always a space between the number 412 and the word Upgrade? Every time I add a response to this subject, I have to eliminate the space between the number 412 and the word Upgrade. Is there any way to fix this so I (and others) can respond without having to delete an unnecessary space between the number and the last word in the subject headline?
Because that's how David typed it when he started the thread. I could edit it, but the thought of editing a late member's post for such a trivial reason feels wrong somehow.
I give you permission to just leave the space in there. My font is such that I didn't even notice there are two spaces there until you said something.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: ilpt4u on December 05, 2023, 12:26:18 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on December 05, 2023, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 04, 2023, 11:10:34 PMI'm rooting for I-38 to finally exist, personally, and while this isn't the perfect spot, its good enough
Come on I-50! I-50!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on December 05, 2023, 01:07:33 AM
Post by: bugo on December 05, 2023, 01:07:33 AM
Quote from: abqtraveler on December 04, 2023, 11:19:10 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Oklahoma somehow get the OTC to finance interstate upgrades to the non-tolled sections of 412. Guess it depends on how bad they want to get it done.
OTA doesn't finance ODOT's roads.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on December 05, 2023, 01:19:04 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 05, 2023, 01:19:04 AM
Quote from: bugo on December 05, 2023, 01:07:33 AMQuote from: abqtraveler on December 04, 2023, 11:19:10 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Oklahoma somehow get the OTC to finance interstate upgrades to the non-tolled sections of 412. Guess it depends on how bad they want to get it done.
OTA doesn't finance ODOT's roads.
Well, he said OTC, which is the Oklahoma Tax Commission, which does finance ODOT's roads, but I don't think that's what he meant. :P
But yes, OTA does its financing through bonds, which it then pays back with toll revenue. ODOT is legally barred from issuing bonds, so if OTA bond money funds an ODOT project, that's a paddlin'.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: jdingus on December 05, 2023, 11:06:30 AM
Post by: jdingus on December 05, 2023, 11:06:30 AM
I guess I-42 got pulled. I-344 and I-335 got approved.
https://transportation.org/route/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/12/Final_Report_USRN_Fall_2023_R_1.pdf
When does the FHWA meet?
https://transportation.org/route/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/12/Final_Report_USRN_Fall_2023_R_1.pdf
When does the FHWA meet?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on December 05, 2023, 01:32:57 PM
Post by: bugo on December 05, 2023, 01:32:57 PM
So let me get this straight: There's a toll road called OK 344 in Tulsa, and an I-344 in Oklahoma City, less than 90 miles from each other. Both off I-44. Do ODOT and the OTA not even pay attention to their own state highway numberings?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 05, 2023, 06:05:43 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 05, 2023, 06:05:43 PM
Does this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240? I support making the Kickapoo Turnpike Interstate 335 on one condition: the existing exit numbers should be renumbered to reflect the mileage of the Kickapoo's Turnpike's proposed southern extension.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: abqtraveler on December 05, 2023, 08:28:47 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on December 05, 2023, 08:28:47 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 05, 2023, 06:05:43 PMI don't know why they would designate the Kickapoo Turnpike as I-335 when it doesn't even connect to I-35. It should be either an I-x40 or I-x44, given that its opposite termini are at I-40 and I-44.
Does this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240? I support making the Kickapoo Turnpike Interstate 335 on one condition: the existing exit numbers should be renumbered to reflect the mileage of the Kickapoo's Turnpike's proposed southern extension.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on December 05, 2023, 09:51:17 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 05, 2023, 09:51:17 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 05, 2023, 01:32:57 PM
Do ODOT and the OTA not even pay attention to their own state highway numberings?
Look at OK-77S and OK-270 and tell me if that answers your question...
Quote from: abqtraveler on December 05, 2023, 08:28:47 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on December 05, 2023, 06:05:43 PMI don't know why they would designate the Kickapoo Turnpike as I-335 when it doesn't even connect to I-35. It should be either an I-x40 or I-x44, given that its opposite termini are at I-40 and I-44.
Does this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240? I support making the Kickapoo Turnpike Interstate 335 on one condition: the existing exit numbers should be renumbered to reflect the mileage of the Kickapoo's Turnpike's proposed southern extension.
The Kickapoo Turnpike is planned to be extended south to I-35 MP 96 just north of Purcell.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 05, 2023, 10:32:45 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 05, 2023, 10:32:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 05, 2023, 09:51:17 PMWe need Bob Lumberg to haunt these people's dreams
The Kickapoo Turnpike is planned to be extended south to I-35 MP 96 just north of Purcell.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 06, 2023, 12:22:18 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 06, 2023, 12:22:18 AM
I kind of like the I-335 choice for the Kickapoo Turnpike. It psychologically forces the issue of the road needing to be extended down to I-35. I like the concept more than the idea of it being signed as I-240.
I'm hoping it doesn't. This I-344 designation thing should overlap both the Kilpatrick Turnpike and the OK-152 Airport Road freeway the rest of the way to I-44.
I think they're still planning to extend I-240 along Airport Road and have it end oddly at the partial exit split with the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension. Yeah, I-240 will just come to a dead end at a surface street traffic signal. Currently both ends of I-240 terminate at Interstate highways. Although traffic going Eastbound through the OKC region would never know I-240 existed. I think any Western extension of I-240 should go up to I-40. It shouldn't just end at a surface street partial exit.
Quote from: The GhostbusterDoes this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240?
I'm hoping it doesn't. This I-344 designation thing should overlap both the Kilpatrick Turnpike and the OK-152 Airport Road freeway the rest of the way to I-44.
I think they're still planning to extend I-240 along Airport Road and have it end oddly at the partial exit split with the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension. Yeah, I-240 will just come to a dead end at a surface street traffic signal. Currently both ends of I-240 terminate at Interstate highways. Although traffic going Eastbound through the OKC region would never know I-240 existed. I think any Western extension of I-240 should go up to I-40. It shouldn't just end at a surface street partial exit.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2023, 01:52:14 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2023, 01:52:14 AM
^^^ has any agency been as finicky as ODOT? They can't decide on anything. First they propose that crazy ass I-240 beltway. Then they cancel that. Then they propose all these new interstate routes and cancel one of them.
What happened to the I-240 extension on SH-152? Why wasn't it on the agenda?
What happened to the I-240 extension on SH-152? Why wasn't it on the agenda?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: vdeane on December 06, 2023, 01:54:22 PM
Post by: vdeane on December 06, 2023, 01:54:22 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 06, 2023, 12:22:18 AMEspecially since I-240 has to overlap I-44 to get extended out that way. It makes much more sense for I-344 to follow OK 152 and avoid the overlap.
I kind of like the I-335 choice for the Kickapoo Turnpike. It psychologically forces the issue of the road needing to be extended down to I-35. I like the concept more than the idea of it being signed as I-240.Quote from: The GhostbusterDoes this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240?
I'm hoping it doesn't. This I-344 designation thing should overlap both the Kilpatrick Turnpike and the OK-152 Airport Road freeway the rest of the way to I-44.
I think they're still planning to extend I-240 along Airport Road and have it end oddly at the partial exit split with the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension. Yeah, I-240 will just come to a dead end at a surface street traffic signal. Currently both ends of I-240 terminate at Interstate highways. Although traffic going Eastbound through the OKC region would never know I-240 existed. I think any Western extension of I-240 should go up to I-40. It shouldn't just end at a surface street partial exit.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2023, 03:30:09 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2023, 03:30:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 06, 2023, 01:54:22 PMAs someone else pointed out there is a planned future tollway south of the airport that will connect SH-152/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange so maybe they're planning on signing that as I-344.Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 06, 2023, 12:22:18 AMEspecially since I-240 has to overlap I-44 to get extended out that way. It makes much more sense for I-344 to follow OK 152 and avoid the overlap.
I kind of like the I-335 choice for the Kickapoo Turnpike. It psychologically forces the issue of the road needing to be extended down to I-35. I like the concept more than the idea of it being signed as I-240.Quote from: The GhostbusterDoes this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240?
I'm hoping it doesn't. This I-344 designation thing should overlap both the Kilpatrick Turnpike and the OK-152 Airport Road freeway the rest of the way to I-44.
I think they're still planning to extend I-240 along Airport Road and have it end oddly at the partial exit split with the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension. Yeah, I-240 will just come to a dead end at a surface street traffic signal. Currently both ends of I-240 terminate at Interstate highways. Although traffic going Eastbound through the OKC region would never know I-240 existed. I think any Western extension of I-240 should go up to I-40. It shouldn't just end at a surface street partial exit.
The only way I could see I-240 making sense here is if there is a long term plan to build a future tollway on SH-152 through the heart of Mustang which wouldn't be impossible but would expensive and an uphill battle but it could happen. It could then tie into I-40 somewhere between Yukon and El Reno. That would be ideal for upgrading SH-4 into this fictional tollway creating a new seamless network of freeways for the southwest metro which desperately needs it if current growth continues.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 06, 2023, 11:28:29 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 06, 2023, 11:28:29 PM
Quote from: Plutonic PandaAs someone else pointed out there is a planned future tollway south of the airport that will connect SH-152/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange so maybe they're planning on signing that as I-344.
That would be the Tri-City Connector. It starts on OK-152/Airport Road less than a mile East of the interchange with OK-152 and the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension. It runs South along the West side of the Will Rogers Airport property before merging into I-44. An extension of I-240 along Airport Road would have only two exits (Meridian and MacArthur) before reaching that Tri-City Connector interchange. That hardly makes any such extension of I-240 worth the bother.
Quote from: Plutonic PandaThe only way I could see I-240 making sense here is if there is a long term plan to build a future tollway on SH-152 through the heart of Mustang which wouldn't be impossible but would expensive and an uphill battle but it could happen.
I have a very hard time seeing a turnpike running along SW 74th Street thru Mustang being feasible at all. Too many commercial and residential properties are built up alongside it. More and more properties are going up all the time. The 6/2023 overhead imagery in Google Earth shows a LOT of bare red clay earth where new construction is taking place.
The OTA might have an outside chance trying to push a OK-152 freeway/turnpike down to OK-4 and farther West by using SW 89th Street to go West. But even that's getting covered up. There is a LOT of random home builds going up all over that area.
Both ODOT and OTA have missed a lot of opportunities to plan for the future in regard to the South and West outskirts of the OKC metro. They blew it 20+ years ago with OK-4 and South Sara Road thru Mustang. Now OK-4 going through Bridge Creek is getting covered up with new, rapid development. If the OTA ever wants to extend the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur North from I-44 up to I-40 they'll have to create a new alignment going well West of Mustang and Yukon.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2023, 11:35:10 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2023, 11:35:10 PM
Yeah I asked an OTA rep about it and they said they have looked into it but didn't sound very optimistic about it. Joker planning 101 going on over here. This area is going to have extremely bad traffic if OKC ever grows to where sprawl reaches Tuttle. It's hard to believe no ROW was preserved even back when the HE Bailey was built you'd think they would have looked at a map and thought maybe we should work with the cities to preserve ROW here.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on December 07, 2023, 01:46:18 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on December 07, 2023, 01:46:18 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 04, 2023, 11:10:34 PM
Come on I-50! I-50!
YES! We're back!
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on December 07, 2023, 02:33:54 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on December 07, 2023, 02:33:54 AM
I also submitted an inquiry to ARDOT's website to hopefully get in front of Lorie Tudor, who is the director of ARDOT and on AASHTO that stated the following:
US-412 is currently being studied to upgrade to interstate status per the legislative mandate from Arkansas' and Oklahoma's sponsored legislation and I recently saw that the application was withdrawn. I am hoping that the reason is because the designation for I-42 has already been proposed for a facility in North Carolina that will never have a logical connection to any of US-412. Since Lori Tudor is an AASHTO representative, she has a platform to suggest the designation of the interstate during this process of conversion to interstate from I-35 to I-49. Since the majority of the facility being considered is also concurrent with the High Priority Corridor Designation #8 of the 1991 ISTEA legislation from Tulsa to Nashville, it is a small portion of what was foreseen to be major E/W corridor in the center of the U.S. Since Arkansas' plan is to have US-412 a 4 lane corridor all across the state, it seems like this would be a good marketing opportunity to request a designation that would foreshadow the eventual growth of the interstate east of Springdale and across the northern tier of Arkansas and through the western half of Tennessee as both areas are continually growing. And I can think of no better marketing number for the interstate than I-50. Imagine, Springdale is the center of the Interstate Highway System in numbering, and there really is no better area than US-412 to have the number 50. The marketing benefits to the state are immense. I-50 and I-60 were never designated when the IHS was originally designed so as not to have any route numbering collisions with a U.S. highway of the same number in a state. Since our numbering has evolved past just a number for any given route in a state, for example, Arkansas has both a US-49 and an I-49, there doesn't seem to be a valid reason NOT to use the number 50 for an interstate designation. I know that I-44 will cross south in Tulsa of whatever designation is given to the new interstate, but it is I-44 that breaks the interstate numbering grid being that it is a diagonal road, so whatever US-412 is destined to become, it needs to be as close to grid compliance as possible between I-40 and I-70 which are E/W interstates that US-412 never crosses. I-50 would be a great designation for it, and I can find no other place anywhere in the U.S. that it really could ever be. Ideally, I-50 would subsume the entire US-412 corridor eventually between I-25 and I-65, but the growth trends west of I-35 at this point would mean that any western extension would likely occur in the future long past our lifetimes. However, in naming this new interstate, we need to consider what happens long after we're gone, so it would make for an excellent legacy to leave. Can you please forward this on to Lorie Tudor for discussion during AASHTO proceedings that relate to this road project? I have also made the same suggestion to my US House representative as well as both of my senators, however, only one ever contacted me about this idea. Thanks for your time and for doing what it takes to get this project developed and marketed.
US-412 is currently being studied to upgrade to interstate status per the legislative mandate from Arkansas' and Oklahoma's sponsored legislation and I recently saw that the application was withdrawn. I am hoping that the reason is because the designation for I-42 has already been proposed for a facility in North Carolina that will never have a logical connection to any of US-412. Since Lori Tudor is an AASHTO representative, she has a platform to suggest the designation of the interstate during this process of conversion to interstate from I-35 to I-49. Since the majority of the facility being considered is also concurrent with the High Priority Corridor Designation #8 of the 1991 ISTEA legislation from Tulsa to Nashville, it is a small portion of what was foreseen to be major E/W corridor in the center of the U.S. Since Arkansas' plan is to have US-412 a 4 lane corridor all across the state, it seems like this would be a good marketing opportunity to request a designation that would foreshadow the eventual growth of the interstate east of Springdale and across the northern tier of Arkansas and through the western half of Tennessee as both areas are continually growing. And I can think of no better marketing number for the interstate than I-50. Imagine, Springdale is the center of the Interstate Highway System in numbering, and there really is no better area than US-412 to have the number 50. The marketing benefits to the state are immense. I-50 and I-60 were never designated when the IHS was originally designed so as not to have any route numbering collisions with a U.S. highway of the same number in a state. Since our numbering has evolved past just a number for any given route in a state, for example, Arkansas has both a US-49 and an I-49, there doesn't seem to be a valid reason NOT to use the number 50 for an interstate designation. I know that I-44 will cross south in Tulsa of whatever designation is given to the new interstate, but it is I-44 that breaks the interstate numbering grid being that it is a diagonal road, so whatever US-412 is destined to become, it needs to be as close to grid compliance as possible between I-40 and I-70 which are E/W interstates that US-412 never crosses. I-50 would be a great designation for it, and I can find no other place anywhere in the U.S. that it really could ever be. Ideally, I-50 would subsume the entire US-412 corridor eventually between I-25 and I-65, but the growth trends west of I-35 at this point would mean that any western extension would likely occur in the future long past our lifetimes. However, in naming this new interstate, we need to consider what happens long after we're gone, so it would make for an excellent legacy to leave. Can you please forward this on to Lorie Tudor for discussion during AASHTO proceedings that relate to this road project? I have also made the same suggestion to my US House representative as well as both of my senators, however, only one ever contacted me about this idea. Thanks for your time and for doing what it takes to get this project developed and marketed.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2023, 01:47:46 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2023, 01:47:46 PM
^^^ great message and I hope it gets to the eyes of those in charge of this. I've wrote ODOT but not ARDOT. Maybe I should write them as well.
Ironically we're on page 42 of this thread. I'm not superstitious and all but let's get this thread to 50 pages long and then wait to see if it's signed I-50 haha
Ironically we're on page 42 of this thread. I'm not superstitious and all but let's get this thread to 50 pages long and then wait to see if it's signed I-50 haha
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on December 07, 2023, 02:01:39 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on December 07, 2023, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2023, 01:47:46 PM
^^^ great message and I hope it gets to the eyes of those in charge of this. I've wrote ODOT but not ARDOT. Maybe I should write them as well.
Ironically we're on page 42 of this thread. I'm not superstitious and all but let's get this thread to 50 pages long and then wait to see if it's signed I-50 haha
I'm not superstitious either, but it would be serendipitous if all that transpired before I turn 51 in April next year.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 07, 2023, 03:58:02 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 07, 2023, 03:58:02 PM
The Interstate 42 designation could be resubmitted to AASTHO at a later date, or they could propose a different number for the corridor (my preference being Interstate 46).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 07, 2023, 09:20:44 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 07, 2023, 09:20:44 PM
Quote from: Plutonic PandaIt's hard to believe no ROW was preserved even back when the HE Bailey was built you'd think they would have looked at a map and thought maybe we should work with the cities to preserve ROW here.
Oklahoma's state government is famous for being cheap. And they have either an inferiority complex with Texas or simply a knee-jerk contrarian attitude toward anything done in Texas -such as the way Texas designs its super highways..
Decades ago it was very common practice for Texas to build future freeway corridors as divided streets with big medians. They did that in a bunch of places, even out in rural areas. There is still a lot of evidence of those practices. Now TX DOT has become a bit more conservative about freeway corridor planning. But they'll still plant down a 2-lane road with a freeway/tollway-sized swath of land next to it.
Does Oklahoma ever copy that idea? HELL NO! Far be it for them to be accused of copying a Texas idea. It's better to just keep doing things stupid, the Oklahoma way.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:24:22 PM
Post by: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:24:22 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on December 07, 2023, 02:01:39 PMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2023, 01:47:46 PM
^^^ great message and I hope it gets to the eyes of those in charge of this. I've wrote ODOT but not ARDOT. Maybe I should write them as well.
Ironically we're on page 42 of this thread. I'm not superstitious and all but let's get this thread to 50 pages long and then wait to see if it's signed I-50 haha
I'm not superstitious either, but it would be serendipitous if all that transpired before I turn 51 in April next year.
Or if it takes any longer then at least by the time I turn 50 in June next year. LOL
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
Post by: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on December 07, 2023, 09:42:30 PM
Post by: US 89 on December 07, 2023, 09:42:30 PM
Quote from: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.
I couldn't.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2023, 10:47:37 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2023, 10:47:37 PM
I could if lawmakers pushed for it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on December 07, 2023, 10:50:11 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 07, 2023, 10:50:11 PM
Quote from: US 89 on December 07, 2023, 09:42:30 PMI also agree with that.Quote from: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.
I couldn't.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on December 07, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Post by: swake on December 07, 2023, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.
I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on December 07, 2023, 11:46:38 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 07, 2023, 11:46:38 PM
I'll be a bit more optimistic and say there's very slight chance, (let's say 1 in 400) that it could get extended to Boise City if I-27 gets extended up to Limon. Having a free-flowing route through the Panhandle would be very nice.
West of there you run into the problem of 1) New Mexico somehow has even less money than Oklahoma does 2) there's basically nothing of note along that latitude in New Mexico—you're looking at control cities like "Taos" and "Shiprock". 3) It only gets worse as you approach Arizona, since then you have to work with the Navajo Nation, and your control city choices end up being stuff like "Kayenta" and "Tuba City". 4) Then you run into the Grand Canyon. Go south of it and you're basically duplicating I-40. Go north of it and you're playing "dodge the National Parks" and you're probably not actually going to reach Las Vegas* anyway, you'll run out at I-15 in St. George.
*I assume you mean Las Vegas NV and not Las Vegas NM. This is about the only context in which they're confusable.
West of there you run into the problem of 1) New Mexico somehow has even less money than Oklahoma does 2) there's basically nothing of note along that latitude in New Mexico—you're looking at control cities like "Taos" and "Shiprock". 3) It only gets worse as you approach Arizona, since then you have to work with the Navajo Nation, and your control city choices end up being stuff like "Kayenta" and "Tuba City". 4) Then you run into the Grand Canyon. Go south of it and you're basically duplicating I-40. Go north of it and you're playing "dodge the National Parks" and you're probably not actually going to reach Las Vegas* anyway, you'll run out at I-15 in St. George.
*I assume you mean Las Vegas NV and not Las Vegas NM. This is about the only context in which they're confusable.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2023, 11:49:09 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2023, 11:49:09 PM
Quote from: swake on December 07, 2023, 11:12:09 PMWhat mountains are there? Most of the road is fairly built up on the future I-27 corridor once you get past Clayton. All it needs is a simple albeit expensive upgrade to interstate quality. ROW and terrain clearance is already there just needs interchanges for the most part and a high speed connection at I-25. Not cheap and given New Mexico's politics I don't see them in any hurry to do it.Quote from: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.
I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.
I figure Texas will build their part well before NM does anything and by that time maybe it might make more sense to route I-27 through the Panhandle where a future, preferably, I-50 connection could happen. I don't see something like that being completely out of the realm of possibilities in our lifetimes. It could then simply terminate here until, and this is getting more on the fictional side, be extended to I-25 if New Mexico and Texas/Oklahoma can agree on anything.
What needs to happen the most regardless of an interstate or not is a Clayton bypass.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Henry on December 08, 2023, 01:03:52 AM
Post by: Henry on December 08, 2023, 01:03:52 AM
Quote from: swake on December 07, 2023, 11:12:09 PMThat same statement can be applied to the AR side, east of Fayetteville. However, with the Future I-57 taking shape on the other side of the state, an eastern extension would be likely to meet at either Pocahontas and Walnut Ridge and also take over I-155 in the process. IN TN, it would meet I-69 at Dyersburg, and might reach its eventual end in Jackson.Quote from: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.
I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.
I must add, though, that this hypothetical extension will not be needed until the aforementioned 2di's are fully built out.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Rover_0 on December 08, 2023, 01:38:32 AM
Post by: Rover_0 on December 08, 2023, 01:38:32 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 07, 2023, 10:50:11 PMQuote from: US 89 on December 07, 2023, 09:42:30 PMI also agree with that.Quote from: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.
I couldn't.
I don't see it either, at least in any of our lifetimes. That said, I'm partial to I-48 or I-58 so that either maybe, just maybe, US-48 or US-58 (or another U.S. Route) gets extended over the route (subsuming US-412) and we get a (near-)transcontinental route with a single number that carries the blue and red shield (when up to standards) or the black and white shield (when not up standards).
It's far-fetched but that's the closest we'll get to a full, east-west Interstate that stretches the length of the area bordered by I-40, I-65, I-70, and I-15.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 08, 2023, 12:11:17 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 08, 2023, 12:11:17 PM
If the future Interstate designation were extended west of Interstate 35, it would need a bypass of Enid (assuming it continues west of Enid). A northern bypass might be too out-of-the-way, while a southern bypass would be a tight squeeze as it would likely have to go somewhere between Richland Ave. and W. Southgate Rd. I doubt they would try and run it through the Meadowlake Golf Course, and of course, they definitely wouldn't run it through the Vance Air Force Base. I doubt any future Interstate would ever need to be built any further west than Woodward.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on December 08, 2023, 12:14:54 PM
Post by: intelati49 on December 08, 2023, 12:14:54 PM
Quote from: Henry on December 08, 2023, 01:03:52 AMIs an interstate end at a US(6)5 fine? Like it's a major route from Springfield to Little Rock...Quote from: swake on December 07, 2023, 11:12:09 PMThat same statement can be applied to the AR side, east of Fayetteville. However, with the Future I-57 taking shape on the other side of the state, an eastern extension would be likely to meet at either Pocahontas and Walnut Ridge and also take over I-155 in the process. IN TN, it would meet I-69 at Dyersburg, and might reach its eventual end in Jackson.Quote from: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.
I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.
I must add, though, that this hypothetical extension will not be needed until the aforementioned 2di's are fully built out.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on December 08, 2023, 04:02:41 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on December 08, 2023, 04:02:41 PM
Quote from: intelati49 on December 08, 2023, 12:14:54 PMQuote from: Henry on December 08, 2023, 01:03:52 AMIs an interstate end at a US(6)5 fine? Like it's a major route from Springfield to Little Rock...Quote from: swake on December 07, 2023, 11:12:09 PMThat same statement can be applied to the AR side, east of Fayetteville. However, with the Future I-57 taking shape on the other side of the state, an eastern extension would be likely to meet at either Pocahontas and Walnut Ridge and also take over I-155 in the process. IN TN, it would meet I-69 at Dyersburg, and might reach its eventual end in Jackson.Quote from: SoonerCowboy on December 07, 2023, 09:34:59 PM
As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.
I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.
I must add, though, that this hypothetical extension will not be needed until the aforementioned 2di's are fully built out.
It's the most likely next segment after the I-35 to I-49 portion is done. It'll be a 4 lane eventually regardless of whether it ever becomes interstate worthy. The ~35 miles from Huntsville where the current 4 lane divided ends to Alpena where it picks back up will take some serious blasting, filling, and bridging on new terrain since the geometry of the current 2 lane is no bueno. It probably wouldn't happen prior to US-65 being upgraded to 4-5 lanes from Clinton to Bellefonte.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 08, 2023, 04:17:35 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 08, 2023, 04:17:35 PM
I wonder when they get the current US-412 situation sorted out and signed if ODOT will ever get serious on working with Texas for an I-45 extension to Tulsa.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 08, 2023, 04:59:41 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 08, 2023, 04:59:41 PM
ODOT might work with TX DOT on an I-45 extension once enough old farts in Atoka and Stringtown die off and not pose enough political resistance to get in the way anymore. Of course other things need to improve in Oklahoma for such a highway project to have any chance of being funded either.
I think it would take more than just I-27 getting extended up to Limon to encourage ODOT or OTA to upgrade US-412 to Interstate quality from I-35 to as far as Boise City.
If both Northern legs of the Ports to Plains Corridor were built as Interstates to Limon and Raton then there might be a tiny, very outside chance a US-412 Interstate could reach Boise City as well as Clayton, NM. The US-412 Interstate route would have its Western terminus set at another significant route in Clayton -a route still traveling Westbound to Raton.
Simply ending a US-412 Interstate at Boise City would have it ending at a hard North-South "T" junction, even if the junction was I-27. Boise City alone isn't an important enough destination to do that.
I can certainly see justification to extend a US-412 Interstate from I-35 to Enid at the very least. In Enid they could build a Southern bypass between the town and Vance AFB. US-81 could probably use some kind of relief route around Enid too.
Going farther West to Woodward wouldn't be outlandish either. The split between US-412 and US-183 at Fort Supply outside Woodward is about as far West as such a highway could be built under current circumstances. Traffic either diverts North to Dodge City or continues West. If you draw a diagonal line from Fort Supply, OK to Kit Carson, CO you'll see a very obvious Denver-OKC diagonal emerge. That's the kind of super highway that needs to be built out there. Denver and OKC are both major destinations and hub cities on the national highway network. Plus, there is next to nothing in regards to NW-SE diagonal Interstates in the Western US.
I see zero chance of US-412 across NM being upgraded to Interstate quality. It would be one thing building the upgrade to I-25. It would be much more difficult building West of it. The terrain is too mountainous and there's too many tribal reservations.
Quote from: Scott5114I'll be a bit more optimistic and say there's very slight chance, (let's say 1 in 400) that it could get extended to Boise City if I-27 gets extended up to Limon. Having a free-flowing route through the Panhandle would be very nice.
I think it would take more than just I-27 getting extended up to Limon to encourage ODOT or OTA to upgrade US-412 to Interstate quality from I-35 to as far as Boise City.
If both Northern legs of the Ports to Plains Corridor were built as Interstates to Limon and Raton then there might be a tiny, very outside chance a US-412 Interstate could reach Boise City as well as Clayton, NM. The US-412 Interstate route would have its Western terminus set at another significant route in Clayton -a route still traveling Westbound to Raton.
Simply ending a US-412 Interstate at Boise City would have it ending at a hard North-South "T" junction, even if the junction was I-27. Boise City alone isn't an important enough destination to do that.
I can certainly see justification to extend a US-412 Interstate from I-35 to Enid at the very least. In Enid they could build a Southern bypass between the town and Vance AFB. US-81 could probably use some kind of relief route around Enid too.
Going farther West to Woodward wouldn't be outlandish either. The split between US-412 and US-183 at Fort Supply outside Woodward is about as far West as such a highway could be built under current circumstances. Traffic either diverts North to Dodge City or continues West. If you draw a diagonal line from Fort Supply, OK to Kit Carson, CO you'll see a very obvious Denver-OKC diagonal emerge. That's the kind of super highway that needs to be built out there. Denver and OKC are both major destinations and hub cities on the national highway network. Plus, there is next to nothing in regards to NW-SE diagonal Interstates in the Western US.
I see zero chance of US-412 across NM being upgraded to Interstate quality. It would be one thing building the upgrade to I-25. It would be much more difficult building West of it. The terrain is too mountainous and there's too many tribal reservations.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on December 09, 2023, 12:52:19 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 09, 2023, 12:52:19 AM
I feel like this is taking a turn into fictional territory, especially once we're talking west of I-35.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 09, 2023, 12:57:44 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 09, 2023, 12:57:44 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 09, 2023, 12:52:19 AMI wouldn't say it's so fictional. I do believe it has been talked about in some capacity by either ODOT or lawmakers who mentioned it could be extended west one day.
I feel like this is taking a turn into fictional territory, especially once we're talking west of I-35.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 02:15:08 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 02:15:08 AM
I can't remember where I saw it, but I do recall seeing old maps of potential conceptual turnpikes in Oklahoma. One of them included a turnpike starting in the OKC metro and going NW to Woodward. Now that's not nearly as ambitious as a OKC-Denver diagonal highway corridor, but it would build out a pretty significant chunk of the route.
Our highway network has lots of diagonal routes that run SW to NE. There are very few running 180 degrees in the opposite diagonal. Metros in the NW US have very little in the way of direct paths to the SE part of the US. That's despite population growth in the NW US and SE US.
Our highway network has lots of diagonal routes that run SW to NE. There are very few running 180 degrees in the opposite diagonal. Metros in the NW US have very little in the way of direct paths to the SE part of the US. That's despite population growth in the NW US and SE US.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on December 09, 2023, 08:07:51 AM
Post by: US 89 on December 09, 2023, 08:07:51 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 02:15:08 AM
Our highway network has lots of diagonal routes that run SW to NE. There are very few running 180 degrees in the opposite diagonal. Metros in the NW US have very little in the way of direct paths to the SE part of the US. That's despite population growth in the NW US and SE US.
Yep, this is something I've experienced many times driving to and from the southeast US. The western I-84, I-24, I-22, and I-26 are really all we have in that regard.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 11:42:43 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 11:42:43 AM
I-84 from Portland to the Salt Lake City region is the only significant NW to SE diagonal Interstate highway West of the Mississippi River.
Yeah, there's I-82. But that's really a companion route for I-84. I-11 (if/when it is ever completed) would be another NW-SE diagonal route, but that one is confined to a smaller region. It's probably only going to be a Las Vegas to outside of Phoenix route.
I-84 is a pretty important route since it moves a lot of traffic between Northwest metro regions (Seattle, Portland, Boise) to the hub in the SLC metro. Unfortunately from that point on Eastward the traffic movement is locked into a very limited and spread out grid. I think the US-6 corridor from the Provo area needs to be upgraded fully to Interstate standards down to I-70. Short bits of US-6 in that area are limited access, but most of it is either 2-lane or undivided 4-lane road. Still, that's the main route between the SLC and Denver metros.
The Denver area is located at the main outlet thru the Rocky Mountains going East. It's an important hub city in the highway network. I think it's only logical for that region to have another diagonal Interstate pointing Southeast. If I-27 is extended up to Limon it would cover one segment of that diagonal route, the stretch from Limon down to Kit Carson. A new diagonal highway going from Kit Carson, skirting Garden City and then to Fort Supply, OK would be a very valuable addition to the highway network. A US-412 Interstate extended West from I-35 could hook into that. The result would create a faster, more efficient link between the metros in the Northwest and metros in the Great Plains and Deep South.
Yeah, there's I-82. But that's really a companion route for I-84. I-11 (if/when it is ever completed) would be another NW-SE diagonal route, but that one is confined to a smaller region. It's probably only going to be a Las Vegas to outside of Phoenix route.
I-84 is a pretty important route since it moves a lot of traffic between Northwest metro regions (Seattle, Portland, Boise) to the hub in the SLC metro. Unfortunately from that point on Eastward the traffic movement is locked into a very limited and spread out grid. I think the US-6 corridor from the Provo area needs to be upgraded fully to Interstate standards down to I-70. Short bits of US-6 in that area are limited access, but most of it is either 2-lane or undivided 4-lane road. Still, that's the main route between the SLC and Denver metros.
The Denver area is located at the main outlet thru the Rocky Mountains going East. It's an important hub city in the highway network. I think it's only logical for that region to have another diagonal Interstate pointing Southeast. If I-27 is extended up to Limon it would cover one segment of that diagonal route, the stretch from Limon down to Kit Carson. A new diagonal highway going from Kit Carson, skirting Garden City and then to Fort Supply, OK would be a very valuable addition to the highway network. A US-412 Interstate extended West from I-35 could hook into that. The result would create a faster, more efficient link between the metros in the Northwest and metros in the Great Plains and Deep South.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on December 09, 2023, 02:54:08 PM
Post by: US 89 on December 09, 2023, 02:54:08 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 11:42:43 AM
I-84 is a pretty important route since it moves a lot of traffic between Northwest metro regions (Seattle, Portland, Boise) to the hub in the SLC metro. Unfortunately from that point on Eastward the traffic movement is locked into a very limited and spread out grid. I think the US-6 corridor from the Provo area needs to be upgraded fully to Interstate standards down to I-70. Short bits of US-6 in that area are limited access, but most of it is either 2-lane or undivided 4-lane road. Still, that's the main route between the SLC and Denver metros.
I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. As someone who has lived in the greater Salt Lake City area for the majority of my lifetime and driven to Denver more times than I can count, this bolded statement is false. From city center to city center, it is about 10 minutes faster to use I-80/US 287/I-25, and this is the route most people use if speed is important. Sure, I-70/US 6/I-15 may be faster depending on exactly where in each metro you are starting and ending, and that route is undeniably more scenic, but it is at best complementary to I-80 through Wyoming. The biggest value it adds to the SLC-Denver corridor is in winter when there are blizzards in Wyoming and I-80 has to close.
I absolutely agree that the Spanish Fork-Green River segment of US 6 needs to be at least four-laned the whole way, but SLC-Denver isn't why. 6 is part of a whole inter-regional and even international corridor that goes from the Pacific Northwest to the ports of south and southeast Texas, as well as most of Mexico's larger cities. Should be paired with a complete four-lane of US 191 north of Monticello and US 491 as well.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 05:22:37 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 05:22:37 PM
Quote from: US 89I absolutely agree that the Spanish Fork-Green River segment of US 6 needs to be at least four-laned the whole way, but SLC-Denver isn't why. 6 is part of a whole inter-regional and even international corridor that goes from the Pacific Northwest to the ports of south and southeast Texas, as well as most of Mexico's larger cities.
The vehicles heading thru SLC to Texas are most likely to take I-70 to Denver and then start trying to head South or Southeast. US-50 is the only other significant thru East-West route in Colorado; the portion between Pueblo and Grand Junction is less friendly to commercial vehicles than I-70. That positions Denver as the primary gateway between the Rockies and the Great Plains.
I-25 and I-70 are both insufficient as routes for vehicles to use to get from the Northwest & Front Range down to places like Texas and the Deep South. A completed Ports to Plains Corridor from Limon to the South will help some. It would certainly be a good alternative to heading over Raton Pass. But the Denver region needs a more direct diagonal route to the Southeast. That's why I keep pitching this Denver-OKC idea.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on December 09, 2023, 06:09:43 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 09, 2023, 06:09:43 PM
^ Every route variant, either going from I-80 west of SLC to I-25 south of Denver, or from I-84 northwest of SLC to I-70 east of Denver, shows I-80 to I-25 being at least 20 minutes faster than US-6 to I-70 across Colorodo.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on December 09, 2023, 10:58:27 PM
Post by: US 89 on December 09, 2023, 10:58:27 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 05:22:37 PMQuote from: US 89I absolutely agree that the Spanish Fork-Green River segment of US 6 needs to be at least four-laned the whole way, but SLC-Denver isn't why. 6 is part of a whole inter-regional and even international corridor that goes from the Pacific Northwest to the ports of south and southeast Texas, as well as most of Mexico's larger cities.
The vehicles heading thru SLC to Texas are most likely to take I-70 to Denver and then start trying to head South or Southeast. US-50 is the only other significant thru East-West route in Colorado; the portion between Pueblo and Grand Junction is less friendly to commercial vehicles than I-70. That positions Denver as the primary gateway between the Rockies and the Great Plains.
I'm not denying that Denver is an important gateway, but that's simply not true for the vast majority of drivers coming from SLC or points further northwest - especially for commercial drivers. Either you take I-80 east and cross the continental divide in Wyoming, or you take US 6 to US 191 to 491, and you cross the divide either on US 550 or I-40. Outside of winter, no truck is going to choose the numerous steep mountain passes of I-70 in Colorado over the largely flat rolling terrain of I-80 in Wyoming. The crossings in New Mexico are pretty tame as well.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 10, 2023, 02:45:08 AM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 10, 2023, 02:45:08 AM
Quote from: sprjus4Every route variant, either going from I-80 west of SLC to I-25 south of Denver, or from I-84 northwest of SLC to I-70 east of Denver, shows I-80 to I-25 being at least 20 minutes faster than US-6 to I-70 across Colorodo.
Is important to note US-6 between I-15 and I-70 currently sucks. So, yeah, there wouldn't be any time savings currently with taking that route to Denver vs I-80. If that portion of US-6 was upgraded to Interstate standards the situation might be different.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on December 10, 2023, 07:48:40 AM
Post by: US 89 on December 10, 2023, 07:48:40 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 10, 2023, 02:45:08 AMQuote from: sprjus4Every route variant, either going from I-80 west of SLC to I-25 south of Denver, or from I-84 northwest of SLC to I-70 east of Denver, shows I-80 to I-25 being at least 20 minutes faster than US-6 to I-70 across Colorodo.
Is important to note US-6 between I-15 and I-70 currently sucks. So, yeah, there wouldn't be any time savings currently with taking that route to Denver vs I-80. If that portion of US-6 was upgraded to Interstate standards the situation might be different.
There will never be time savings barring some type of weather or other incident. If you look at the actual mileage between city centers, the Wyoming route is 6-9 miles shorter than the Grand Junction route, depending on exactly what you do in Fort Collins. And even if you somehow got all of 6 to interstate standards through Price Canyon and Spanish Fork Canyon, the 70/6 route has a lot more mountainous (read: slower) mileage than 80 does.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on December 10, 2023, 01:35:16 PM
Post by: edwaleni on December 10, 2023, 01:35:16 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 10, 2023, 02:45:08 AMQuote from: sprjus4Every route variant, either going from I-80 west of SLC to I-25 south of Denver, or from I-84 northwest of SLC to I-70 east of Denver, shows I-80 to I-25 being at least 20 minutes faster than US-6 to I-70 across Colorodo.
Is important to note US-6 between I-15 and I-70 currently sucks. So, yeah, there wouldn't be any time savings currently with taking that route to Denver vs I-80. If that portion of US-6 was upgraded to Interstate standards the situation might be different.
Soldier Summit, nuff said.
Can we get back to US-412?
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 11, 2023, 01:17:54 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 11, 2023, 01:17:54 PM
I would work on upgrading the Cimarron Turnpike and the Sand Springs Expressway to Interstate Standards before tackling the upgrades east of Interstate 44. When the upgrades to the US 412 corridor are initiated, one of the first things that should be done is to convert Exits 15 and 48 on the Cimarron Turnpike into diamond interchanges. Of course, I have no idea which of the corridor's upgrades would be tackled first, but I personally would focus on upgrading the western segments before the eastern segments.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on December 11, 2023, 01:35:09 PM
Post by: swake on December 11, 2023, 01:35:09 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 11, 2023, 01:17:54 PM
I would work on upgrading the Cimarron Turnpike and the Sand Springs Expressway to Interstate Standards before tackling the upgrades east of Interstate 44. When the upgrades to the US 412 corridor are initiated, one of the first things that should be done is to convert Exits 15 and 48 on the Cimarron Turnpike into diamond interchanges. Of course, I have no idea which of the corridor's upgrades would be tackled first, but I personally would focus on upgrading the western segments before the eastern segments.
The biggest upgrade needed to the west of Tulsa is building an interchange at Diamond Head road on Lake Keystone. ODOT held a meeting with residents last week on options. Currently the plan is for right of way acquisition and utility relocation in 2026 and construction in 2029.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/community/sand-springs/sand-springs-area-residents-weigh-in-on-u-s-412-diamond-head-drive-plan/article_b9aa801a-981e-11ee-a9d4-13c31d031979.html
There are a number of project slated for upgrades east of Tulsa between I-44 and the Cherokee turnpike with construction on some of them as soon as 2025.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 11, 2023, 04:15:20 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 11, 2023, 04:15:20 PM
Quote from: The GhostbusterWhen the upgrades to the US 412 corridor are initiated, one of the first things that should be done is to convert Exits 15 and 48 on the Cimarron Turnpike into diamond interchanges.
The Exit 48 interchange is currently being re-built. The old obsolete ramps are being replaced with all new ones featuring much better curve geometry. Some of the early progress is visible in 3/2023 Street View imagery.
I expect OTA to replace the Exit 15 interchange as well. But Exit 48 had a considerably worse ramp design.
Quote from: swakeThe biggest upgrade needed to the west of Tulsa is building an interchange at Diamond Head road on Lake Keystone.
That's the last remaining at-grade intersection on US-412 between Downtown Tulsa and I-35. It's almost not worth building an interchange, but US-412 provides the only road access to that neighborhood.
Another alternative would be improving the West 9th Street road the runs along the North side of US-412 and build a bridge or underpass to connect Diamond Head Drive to it. They could probably also extend Wekiwa Road from the Keystone Dam nearby to that neighborhood Diamond Head Drive serves. It would probably cost considerably less building that than building a diamond freeway interchange. Another problem is the trumpet interchange for OK-151 and at grade intersection with Diamond Head Drive are pretty close to each other. I really think it would be safer for other nearby streets to provide connections to Diamond Head Drive and then use the OK-151 interchange for access to US-412.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on December 12, 2023, 01:06:48 AM
Post by: bugo on December 12, 2023, 01:06:48 AM
I sent an email to an ODOT representative asking why the I-42 application was withdrawn. I received a response earlier today:
I also asked about there being an toll road called I-344 less than 100 miles away from a toll road called OK 344, and here is the response:
Quote from: ODOTThe joint Oklahoma/Arkansas I-42 Route Numbering Application was withdrawn shortly before the AASHTO Fall Meeting when we were informed that the Route Numbering Committee had concerns that an I-42 in Oklahoma and Arkansas might cause confusion with the proposed I-42 in North Carolina and were planning to not allow the application to go through. The Committee was also concerned that since there are no current or future plans to connect the two segments of the proposed I-42 they would remain disconnected for the foreseeable future. Typically there is a question and answer time between the States and the Route Numbering Committee while they are making their recommendations, but that was not provided this year as the Route Numbering Committee met virtually only with its members leading up to the AASHTO Fall Meeting. The decision to temporarily withdraw the application was made in conjunction with both Oklahoma and Arkansas DOT leadership. We plan to resubmit this application for the AASHTO Spring Meeting following more communication with the Route Numbering Committee.
I also asked about there being an toll road called I-344 less than 100 miles away from a toll road called OK 344, and here is the response:
Quote from: ODOTThe Gilcrease Turnpike designation of SH-344 is a State Highway designation and was approved by the State Transportation Commission. A State Highway Designation only requires approval by the State Transportation Commission and the number part of a highway designation can sometimes be the same as a US Route or an Interstate. There are no plans to redesignate the Gilcrease Turnpike and that will remain its Highway Route Number. The designation of I-344, approved by the AASHTO Route Numbering Committee, is being applied to the John Kilpatrick Turnpike in Oklahoma City. This is part of the current effort to give numbered route designations to all unnumbered Turnpikes. This will help the traveling public better navigate Oklahoma's Highways and Turnpikes.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 01:59:37 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 01:59:37 AM
Thank you for reporting back on that. Good stuff to know.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on December 12, 2023, 09:33:06 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 12, 2023, 09:33:06 AM
Quote from: bugo on December 12, 2023, 01:06:48 AMSomething tells me it's less confusing without numbers than having a "344" designation within 100 miles of each other, in the same state, on the same Turnpike system. But, it's Oklahoma so what do I expect.
This will help the traveling public better navigate Oklahoma's Highways and Turnpikes.
The only reason it seems they pulled I-42 is because AASHTO was like, hey, let's avoid duplication several hundred miles apart, but internally ODOT sees it as fine.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on December 12, 2023, 12:11:07 PM
Post by: MikieTimT on December 12, 2023, 12:11:07 PM
Good info. Now, that begs the question about who is on the Route Numbering Committee, and whether there is a mechanism of public communication with it/them.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on December 12, 2023, 01:26:52 PM
Post by: rte66man on December 12, 2023, 01:26:52 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 09, 2023, 02:15:08 AM
I can't remember where I saw it, but I do recall seeing old maps of potential conceptual turnpikes in Oklahoma. One of them included a turnpike starting in the OKC metro and going NW to Woodward. Now that's not nearly as ambitious as a OKC-Denver diagonal highway corridor, but it would build out a pretty significant chunk of the route.
That was pat of the 90's plans to connect the State. OKC to Woodward, Davis to Duncan, etc. None of them were remotely financially feasible so they died a quiet death.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2023, 01:57:23 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2023, 01:57:23 PM
The OKC to Woodward thing I saw was actually part of an older plan. It wasn't part of that package of goofy turnpike proposals (Duncan to Davis and Clinton to Snyder).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 12, 2023, 03:27:29 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 12, 2023, 03:27:29 PM
With the John Kilpatrick Turnpike becoming Interstate 344 (I agree this is a lousy number), and the Kickapoo Turnpike becoming Interstate 335, there should be no more unnumbered toll roads in Oklahoma. I guess we'll have to wait even longer to see what Interstate designation the US 412 corridor receives.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 04:24:07 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 04:24:07 PM
US-412/Diamond Head Interchange: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20231205.html
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2023, 04:42:52 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2023, 04:42:52 PM
Just as expected, the alternative to build a new road from Diamond Head Drive on East to the intersection with OK-151 and Wekiwa Road is the least expensive option. That's Alternative 2 in the Display Boards PDF. The main drawback to the concept is traffic impacts to the USACE office nearby.
Alternative 6 would be the most expensive option, but probably the safest. The trumpet interchange with OK-151 and US-412 would be replaced with a diamond interchange. A new access road along the North side of US-412 would be built; it would bridge over to the Diamond Head neighborhood.
It's interesting Alternative 4 requires the least amount of new ROW. But the new diamond interchange with Diamond Head Road would create weaving conflicts on US-412. The on-ramp for Diamond Head Road onto EB US-412 would have traffic weaving with vehicles exiting US-412 onto OK-151.
Alternative 6 would be the most expensive option, but probably the safest. The trumpet interchange with OK-151 and US-412 would be replaced with a diamond interchange. A new access road along the North side of US-412 would be built; it would bridge over to the Diamond Head neighborhood.
It's interesting Alternative 4 requires the least amount of new ROW. But the new diamond interchange with Diamond Head Road would create weaving conflicts on US-412. The on-ramp for Diamond Head Road onto EB US-412 would have traffic weaving with vehicles exiting US-412 onto OK-151.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 04:48:59 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 04:48:59 PM
Why even propose a diamond interchange with no braided ramps this close to a free flowing trumpet? Clearly ODOT doesn't want to build an interchange here.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2023, 04:55:33 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2023, 04:55:33 PM
If I was going to bet on the outcome I'd choose alternative 2, simply because of the low cost.
Two interchanges closely spaced together with braided ramps would be quite expensive, probably even more expensive than the Alternative 6 proposal.
Two interchanges closely spaced together with braided ramps would be quite expensive, probably even more expensive than the Alternative 6 proposal.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 05:06:55 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 05:06:55 PM
Right it would be expensive but it would be the only "right" way of doing an interchange there if it's really worth it. Hence me thinking ODOT is not interested in building an interchange but simply removing the at grade intersection.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2023, 05:20:28 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2023, 05:20:28 PM
I just don't think two interchanges there is a good idea. Weaving conflicts absolutely suck. A diamond interchange with Diamond Head Rd is going to be too close to the existing trumpet interchange with OK-151. Braided ramps can solve the problem, but at a very high cost in relation to the low number of people living there. It's wasteful extravagance. I think the Alternative 6 option is the best one out of the bunch (re-build the OK-151 trumpet interchange as a diamond interchange and build a new access road over to Diamond Head Road).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on December 12, 2023, 05:48:42 PM
Post by: swake on December 12, 2023, 05:48:42 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2023, 05:20:28 PM
I just don't think two interchanges there is a good idea. Weaving conflicts absolutely suck. A diamond interchange with Diamond Head Rd is going to be too close to the existing trumpet interchange with OK-151. Braided ramps can solve the problem, but at a very high cost in relation to the low number of people living there. It's wasteful extravagance. I think the Alternative 6 option is the best one out of the bunch (re-build the OK-151 trumpet interchange as a diamond interchange and build a new access road over to Diamond Head Road).
It's likely cheaper to buy out the houses and tear them all down than to go with option 6.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 06:48:31 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 12, 2023, 06:48:31 PM
Frankly I am partial to alternative 5. Now I know nothing about this area so I don't know if roundabouts are a good candidate for this or not but it seems like a good compromise. Semi free flowing interchange and minimal ROW. ODOT could even sell off additional ROW or keep it for a maintenance or storage area.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 12, 2023, 10:37:42 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 12, 2023, 10:37:42 PM
I think I like Alternative 2 the best. It connects Diamond Head Rd. with OK 151, which I think is the most logical way to eliminate the existing at-grade intersection with US 412. I suppose Alternative 5 would be my second choice, and if the people of Oklahoma don't understand roundabouts (depending how common roundabouts are in the state of Oklahoma), come to Wisconsin where there are plenty of them.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: zzcarp on December 12, 2023, 11:58:02 PM
Post by: zzcarp on December 12, 2023, 11:58:02 PM
I think they'll have a hard time justifying spending $22 million for Option 5 when they can do Option 2 for just of $3.5 million. By price alone it has to be Option 2, or at most potentially a $10 million Option 1.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 13, 2023, 12:16:55 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 13, 2023, 12:16:55 AM
Knowing ODOT yeah they're not usually the kind of agency wanting to spend big bucks on projects.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: US 89 on December 13, 2023, 12:26:35 AM
Post by: US 89 on December 13, 2023, 12:26:35 AM
This isn't even an issue of DOTs being cheap. This is an issue of there are maybe twenty houses at most that this at-grade intersection serves. There is zero reason to mess with the 151/64-412 interchange when the only issue at play here is how those 20 houses connect to the outside world.
Unlike some cases where going with the cheapest option results in significant downgrades compared to other options, there are essentially zero downsides to option 2 here. The only people that won't like it are the two people who live in those houses who will be annoyed they now have to go to 151 to take 64-412 west instead of just turning left like they do now. They'll get used to it.
Unlike some cases where going with the cheapest option results in significant downgrades compared to other options, there are essentially zero downsides to option 2 here. The only people that won't like it are the two people who live in those houses who will be annoyed they now have to go to 151 to take 64-412 west instead of just turning left like they do now. They'll get used to it.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 13, 2023, 12:55:05 AM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 13, 2023, 12:55:05 AM
I'm not talking about adding an additional interchange. I'm talking about dealing with existing interchange and modernizing it. So yes it is about a DOT being cheap. I'm not even going to double down and blame ODOT. They aren't properly funded.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Scott5114 on December 13, 2023, 02:20:19 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 13, 2023, 02:20:19 AM
I don't even know that there's even anything wrong with that interchange that requires "modernizing". It's just a trumpet interchange. There's not anything inherently wrong with them, unless the geometry is fucked up somehow (but that can happen to any interchange type).
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on December 13, 2023, 02:32:04 AM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on December 13, 2023, 02:32:04 AM
Knowing ODOT, they are probably going with either Option 2 or Option 5...
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: splashflash on December 13, 2023, 09:07:20 AM
Post by: splashflash on December 13, 2023, 09:07:20 AM
Quote from: US 89 on December 13, 2023, 12:26:35 AM
This isn't even an issue of DOTs being cheap. This is an issue of there are maybe twenty houses at most that this at-grade intersection serves.
It seems ODOT is selling this as a safety improvement, which it is regardless of which option or modification thereof is chosen. Option 2 would probably be considered adequate by the tone of an article below.
Pretty good article
https://tulsaworld.com/news/community/sand-springs/sand-springs-area-residents-weigh-in-on-u-s-412-diamond-head-drive-plan/article_b9aa801a-981e-11ee-a9d4-13c31d031979.html
Judy Elkhoury, who said she has lived in the neighborhood for 15 years, said most of Diamond Head's residents are there "because it is secluded; because it is so quiet and away."
"Do we want more traffic? Do we want it to be that easy?" she asked.
"It's amazing to me that with our little neighborhood they (ODOT) would be willing to go to the extent of some of these enormously expensive projects just to accommodate our community, so that's impressive," she said.
Sims lauded the attendees for their efforts to understand the scope of the proposals.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: edwaleni on December 13, 2023, 09:50:38 AM
Post by: edwaleni on December 13, 2023, 09:50:38 AM
If they want seclusion, bridge over US-412 and put in a frontage road to connect to 9th Street.
Seclusion comes with other issues, like life safety. Not being connected to US-412 will probably increase first responder times.
The more mundane issues will be the fact that the Amazon or Domino's delivery guy won't be able to find you.
Seclusion comes with other issues, like life safety. Not being connected to US-412 will probably increase first responder times.
The more mundane issues will be the fact that the Amazon or Domino's delivery guy won't be able to find you.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: sprjus4 on December 13, 2023, 11:37:48 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 13, 2023, 11:37:48 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 13, 2023, 09:50:38 AMI think the lady was referring to the interchange proposal more than anything. Simply routing a frontage road over OK-151 interchange without bridge structures would be the cheapest and best option here - while also keeping their community secluded but with easy access at the same time.
If they want seclusion, bridge over US-412 and put in a frontage road to connect to 9th Street.
Seclusion comes with other issues, like life safety. Not being connected to US-412 will probably increase first responder times.
The more mundane issues will be the fact that the Amazon or Domino's delivery guy won't be able to find you.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 13, 2023, 01:42:53 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 13, 2023, 01:42:53 PM
In the Display Boards PDF they list the pros and cons of all the proposed alternatives.
The main pro of Alternative 2 is it's less out of direction than Alternative 1A/1B (those two bridge over US-412 to connect to an extended access road on the other side of US-412). Alternative 2 has a shorter road to OK-151. Less cost and improved emergency response times.
The main con of Alternative 2 is a safety issue. They list the new at-grade intersection with OK-151 as a problem since it is at the edge of the OK-151 & US-412 trumpet interchange. It is a higher speed system interchange. But what about Wekiwa Road? That street already connects into OK-151 at that point. The Alternative 2 proposal would simply patch a new neighborhood street into that existing at-grade intersection. There are concerns about impacts to the USACE office, but this is already a publicly accessible area. There is a parking lot across from the turn to Wekiwa Road for the Two Rivers Trail.
There is about 3 dozen residential homes in the Diamond Head neighborhood. I think $3.5 million to build a new neighborhood street and remove the at-grade intersection on US-412 is a good enough solution for that. Alternative 6 would be a "living in a perfect world solution" -one where $29.3 million can be spent to remove an at grade intersection to a neighborhood with fewer than 100 residents.
The main pro of Alternative 2 is it's less out of direction than Alternative 1A/1B (those two bridge over US-412 to connect to an extended access road on the other side of US-412). Alternative 2 has a shorter road to OK-151. Less cost and improved emergency response times.
The main con of Alternative 2 is a safety issue. They list the new at-grade intersection with OK-151 as a problem since it is at the edge of the OK-151 & US-412 trumpet interchange. It is a higher speed system interchange. But what about Wekiwa Road? That street already connects into OK-151 at that point. The Alternative 2 proposal would simply patch a new neighborhood street into that existing at-grade intersection. There are concerns about impacts to the USACE office, but this is already a publicly accessible area. There is a parking lot across from the turn to Wekiwa Road for the Two Rivers Trail.
There is about 3 dozen residential homes in the Diamond Head neighborhood. I think $3.5 million to build a new neighborhood street and remove the at-grade intersection on US-412 is a good enough solution for that. Alternative 6 would be a "living in a perfect world solution" -one where $29.3 million can be spent to remove an at grade intersection to a neighborhood with fewer than 100 residents.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 13, 2023, 06:30:28 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 13, 2023, 06:30:28 PM
This is what the existing OK 151/W. Wekiwa Rd. intersection looks like: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1545876,-96.2500026,3a,75y,119.6h,73.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfOyhgSkm9F9aibjJNUTNEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. In addition, this is what the existing US 64/US 412/Diamond Head Dr. intersection looks like: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1640434,-96.2517962,3a,75y,242.84h,92.21t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6D3BmDYHBHu9ciPFN9_LEA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D6D3BmDYHBHu9ciPFN9_LEA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D328.7277%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. Whichever alternative is chosen will likely be a vast improvement over how it exists at present.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: rte66man on December 14, 2023, 01:55:03 PM
Post by: rte66man on December 14, 2023, 01:55:03 PM
Quote from: splashflash on December 13, 2023, 09:07:20 AMQuote from: US 89 on December 13, 2023, 12:26:35 AM
This isn't even an issue of DOTs being cheap. This is an issue of there are maybe twenty houses at most that this at-grade intersection serves.
It seems ODOT is selling this as a safety improvement, which it is regardless of which option or modification thereof is chosen. Option 2 would probably be considered adequate by the tone of an article below.
Pretty good article
https://tulsaworld.com/news/community/sand-springs/sand-springs-area-residents-weigh-in-on-u-s-412-diamond-head-drive-plan/article_b9aa801a-981e-11ee-a9d4-13c31d031979.html
Judy Elkhoury, who said she has lived in the neighborhood for 15 years, said most of Diamond Head's residents are there "because it is secluded; because it is so quiet and away."
"Do we want more traffic? Do we want it to be that easy?" she asked.
"It's amazing to me that with our little neighborhood they (ODOT) would be willing to go to the extent of some of these enormously expensive projects just to accommodate our community, so that's impressive," she said.
Sims lauded the attendees for their efforts to understand the scope of the proposals.
Moving the intersection to OK151 at Wekiva Rd is way safer than having traffic pull out on a road that is assumed to be a freeway by most drivers (meaning they will go much faster than the posted limit).
Westbound 412
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1636616,-96.2512234,3a,75y,320.49h,64.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEj7i2bLW_bfvjuo9Q5TwFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu
From Diamond Head Dr
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1639931,-96.2518974,3a,75y,339.06h,86.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYi7n2QF422BWFIQS6nRHng!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?authuser=0&entry=ttu
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: intelati49 on December 17, 2023, 09:54:08 AM
Post by: intelati49 on December 17, 2023, 09:54:08 AM
Quote from: zzcarp on December 12, 2023, 11:58:02 PM
I think they'll have a hard time justifying spending $22 million for Option 5 when they can do Option 2 for just of $3.5 million. By price alone it has to be Option 2, or at most potentially a $10 million Option 1.
When one option is literally 1/3 of the cost and impact of the others, the deck does seem stacked.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: JREwing78 on December 17, 2023, 01:15:25 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on December 17, 2023, 01:15:25 PM
Alternative 2 basically pushes the safety problems a little up the road and off US-412. That's probably OK for now; if the Diamond Head neighborhood ever expands or more development on the north side of US-412 occurs, there's nothing precluding ODOT from rebuilding the OK-151 interchange even with building Alternative 2.
Alternatives 1, 3, and 4 are excessive and unnecessary when Alternative 2 exists.
I see the overpasses for OK-151 were recently replaced on US-412, and the pavement through the interchange is due to be rebuilt anyway; Alternative 5 may ultimately be the best option of the group. I would try to line up Wekiwa Rd with the new access road for Diamond Head at the same roundabout; there's no reason for it to be a separate intersection.
Alternatives 1, 3, and 4 are excessive and unnecessary when Alternative 2 exists.
I see the overpasses for OK-151 were recently replaced on US-412, and the pavement through the interchange is due to be rebuilt anyway; Alternative 5 may ultimately be the best option of the group. I would try to line up Wekiwa Rd with the new access road for Diamond Head at the same roundabout; there's no reason for it to be a separate intersection.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on December 18, 2023, 10:28:50 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on December 18, 2023, 10:28:50 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on December 07, 2023, 02:33:54 AM
I also submitted an inquiry to ARDOT's website to hopefully get in front of Lorie Tudor, who is the director of ARDOT and on AASHTO that stated the following:
US-412 is currently being studied to upgrade to interstate status per the legislative mandate from Arkansas' and Oklahoma's sponsored legislation and I recently saw that the application was withdrawn. I am hoping that the reason is because the designation for I-42 has already been proposed for a facility in North Carolina that will never have a logical connection to any of US-412. Since Lori Tudor is an AASHTO representative, she has a platform to suggest the designation of the interstate during this process of conversion to interstate from I-35 to I-49. Since the majority of the facility being considered is also concurrent with the High Priority Corridor Designation #8 of the 1991 ISTEA legislation from Tulsa to Nashville, it is a small portion of what was foreseen to be major E/W corridor in the center of the U.S. Since Arkansas' plan is to have US-412 a 4 lane corridor all across the state, it seems like this would be a good marketing opportunity to request a designation that would foreshadow the eventual growth of the interstate east of Springdale and across the northern tier of Arkansas and through the western half of Tennessee as both areas are continually growing. And I can think of no better marketing number for the interstate than I-50. Imagine, Springdale is the center of the Interstate Highway System in numbering, and there really is no better area than US-412 to have the number 50. The marketing benefits to the state are immense. I-50 and I-60 were never designated when the IHS was originally designed so as not to have any route numbering collisions with a U.S. highway of the same number in a state. Since our numbering has evolved past just a number for any given route in a state, for example, Arkansas has both a US-49 and an I-49, there doesn't seem to be a valid reason NOT to use the number 50 for an interstate designation. I know that I-44 will cross south in Tulsa of whatever designation is given to the new interstate, but it is I-44 that breaks the interstate numbering grid being that it is a diagonal road, so whatever US-412 is destined to become, it needs to be as close to grid compliance as possible between I-40 and I-70 which are E/W interstates that US-412 never crosses. I-50 would be a great designation for it, and I can find no other place anywhere in the U.S. that it really could ever be. Ideally, I-50 would subsume the entire US-412 corridor eventually between I-25 and I-65, but the growth trends west of I-35 at this point would mean that any western extension would likely occur in the future long past our lifetimes. However, in naming this new interstate, we need to consider what happens long after we're gone, so it would make for an excellent legacy to leave. Can you please forward this on to Lorie Tudor for discussion during AASHTO proceedings that relate to this road project? I have also made the same suggestion to my US House representative as well as both of my senators, however, only one ever contacted me about this idea. Thanks for your time and for doing what it takes to get this project developed and marketed.
Got a response back from an ARDOT construction engineer in District 9, which follows:
First i would like to say that this is not my area of expertise. I am on the construction end of highway projects, so most of the decisions like you mention above are already made by the time I get involved. Having said that I have gathered some info and will share it with you.
The Infrastructure Investments and Jobs Act, passed by Congress in 2021, identified the general Highway 412 corridor between I-35 in Oklahoma and I-49 in Arkansas as a Future Interstate. As a result, the Arkansas and Oklahoma Department of Transportations are taking several actions to advance this Future Interstate corridor, such as:
• Conducting a Planning and Environmental Linkage (PEL) study to determine where the existing corridor does not currently meet Interstate standards, and determine how to most efficiently improve the roadway.
• Submitting an application to AASHTO to designate this corridor as a Future Interstate. As you mentioned, a route designation application was submitted to the AASHTO route numbering committee during their recent Fall meeting, but was withdrawn when committee members indicated concern with duplicating North Carolina's number. We and Oklahoma intend to resubmit the application at a future meeting, in accordance with Congress's intention.
It is important to know that while Congress designated this corridor as a "High Priority Corridor", they did not provide any dedicated funding for roadway improvements. As such, there are no immediate plans to make the improvements identified within the PEL study. Oklahoma has some sections that are at Interstate standards that may be signed as an Interstate rather soon, but without dedicated funding, we are still years from having a completed Interstate corridor. This is the same funding challenge experienced by several other Future Interstate corridors in the state (I-49, I-57, and I-69).
Continuing eastward across Arkansas, Highway 412 is a vitally important east-west corridor connecting numerous communities across the Ozark Mountains and Arkansas Delta. To this end, the Department completed a study in 2020 that considered needed improvements to this route. The study recommended a series of improvements (to be implemented as funds become available), starting with safety and operational improvements (like passing lanes),and ultimately resulting in a four-lane corridor across the state. Owing to the moderate traffic volumes, rugged terrain, and exceptionally high costs, an Interstate style facility was not recommended by this study.
I have also attached the study referenced above. (The attachment was the 2020 HIGHWAY 412 CORRIDOR PLANNING STUDY UPDATE (OKLAHOMA TO MISSOURI), which is somewhat out of date now that there is legislation for upgrading US-412 west of I-49 to an interstate facility.)
So, there isn't any interest from ARDOT's perspective on any further interstate mileage east of I-49 at this time for US-412, so any changes to that perspective would likely come in the form of Congressional legislation as well. Kind of puts the kibosh on hopes for an I-50 along that route unless it becomes the idea of someone with more national pull than myself. I wrote my congresspeople, so I did what I could do unless I miraculously get more sway in political circles.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 18, 2023, 03:01:57 PM
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 18, 2023, 03:01:57 PM
^^^ thank for doing that! It really adds to the conversation knowing a bit about the decisions behind the DOTs. Good stuff.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on December 19, 2023, 01:58:47 AM
Post by: bugo on December 19, 2023, 01:58:47 AM
I sent ArDOT a message on December 4 asking about US 412, and I still haven't received a response. I got a quick response from ODOT, however, and I posted the reply in this thread.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on December 19, 2023, 11:52:09 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on December 19, 2023, 11:52:09 AM
Quote from: bugo on December 19, 2023, 01:58:47 AM
I sent ArDOT a message on December 4 asking about US 412, and I still haven't received a response. I got a quick response from ODOT, however, and I posted the reply in this thread.
I submitted an inquiry after creating an account at https://ardot.govqa.us/WEBAPP/_rs/(S(u5hwtawz5rjmaztuawl4vjiq))/SupportHome.aspx (https://ardot.govqa.us/WEBAPP/_rs/(S(u5hwtawz5rjmaztuawl4vjiq))/SupportHome.aspx), and they got back to me quite quickly. I wonder if it's because I'm an Arkansas resident, though, and can vote on their budget. I submitted a followup question to see if I could get a contact for someone responsible for the designation submission in the future, but I won't hold my breath. Never hurts to try though! Below is my follow-up response:
Thanks so much for the information regarding the submission withdrawal and what the current status of the US-412 upgrades across the state. Looks like the 2020 study doesn't fulfill the upgrades west of I-49, but I assume everything to the east remains unchanged without funding or legislative approval at the federal level. I appreciate the time and effort you put into responding to me, and know that I am but one of many people across the country who are interested in this project. In fact, I belong to a road forum (aaroads.com) full of roadgeeks like myself who take great interest in the job that you and the others at ARDOT and ODOT have ahead of you in regards to this road and it's future. I took the liberty of posting your response to a thread in the forum since it's all public information, but I didn't include your name in the post for your personal privacy, although I suspect that you wouldn't respond to me with anything that wasn't for public dissemination anyway.
I do have a follow-up question. Do you have any suggestions on who to contact in regards to suggestions on what the road gets designated? I know that to maintain the integrity of the road numbering grid standard (I-44 being a diagonal which isn't really on the grid anyway being a local exception) the facility would need to be I-46, I-48, I-50, or I-52 to maintain a semblance of grid compatibility with its latitude relative to I-40 and I-70. I know that originally I-50 and I-60 were omitted due to potential conflicts in route numbers with existing US highways at mid latitudes, but me and several others in the roadgeek community have strong opinions that this facility would make for a great location for an I-50, even though we know that within our lifetimes, it isn't likely to be extended past the current congressionally mandated endpoints. Just thinking about legacy at this point and don't want to be shortsighted.
Thanks again for your time and consideration. I appreciate the ability to contact my DOT and the job they do with the limited resources available to it. I do what I can to vote for more funds for roads when they pop up on the ballot. Roads are the foundation that keeps the economic machine in Arkansas supported after all.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2023, 12:19:56 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2023, 12:19:56 PM
Good to know there is still some sanity left out there.
Duplicating I numbers when there are plenty available... :banghead:
Cross off all y'all's 42's and replace them with 46's; resubmit.
Duplicating I numbers when there are plenty available... :banghead:
Cross off all y'all's 42's and replace them with 46's; resubmit.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: bugo on January 10, 2024, 01:37:24 AM
Post by: bugo on January 10, 2024, 01:37:24 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 13, 2023, 08:46:48 AM
On the Arkansas side of the border, you can rest assured that they won't be. When I-49 shields went up, the US-71 shields came down.
When the I-49 shields went up, the US 71 shields were long gone, other than the section north of US 62. The I-540 shields replaced the US 62/71 shields. And the US 62/71 shields didn't immediately go away, as this image, taken soon after I-540 was completed between Mountainburg and Fayetteville, attests. The I-540 shields went down the day the I-49 shields, which was typical stupid ArrrrghDOT bullshit.
(https://www.aaroads.com/nofrills/arkansas/i540us6271.JPG)
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Wayward Memphian on January 15, 2024, 11:35:40 PM
Post by: Wayward Memphian on January 15, 2024, 11:35:40 PM
It needs to be a 4 lane divided to the US 65 Junction just north of Harrison, which means the stretch between Huntsville and Alpena gets don't.and a 4 lane divided bypass of Harrision. After that, they can 5 lane/Arkansas freeway the rest if they want. However tey shouldn't settle for that because it would be most beneficial to have an upgradable to interstate 4 lane divided highway between NWA and NEA.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: MikieTimT on January 16, 2024, 09:27:12 AM
Post by: MikieTimT on January 16, 2024, 09:27:12 AM
Quote from: Wayward Memphian on January 15, 2024, 11:35:40 PM
It needs to be a 4 lane divided to the US 65 Junction just north of Harrison, which means the stretch between Huntsville and Alpena gets don't.and a 4 lane divided bypass of Harrision. After that, they can 5 lane/Arkansas freeway the rest if they want. However tey shouldn't settle for that because it would be most beneficial to have an upgradable to interstate 4 lane divided highway between NWA and NEA.
Same could be said from I-155 to Walnut Ridge in conjunction with extending I-555 from Jonesboro at least up to Hardy, if not Mammoth Springs, where Missouri could probably find incentive to match up from there to Willow Springs and US-60. I-555 likely needs a new designation at that point, which I could get on board as I-22.
Between Harrison and Hardy would likely be the last segment to get the treatment due to traffic counts on US-412 in the midsection.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Wayward Memphian on January 23, 2024, 03:03:51 PM
Post by: Wayward Memphian on January 23, 2024, 03:03:51 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on January 16, 2024, 09:27:12 AMQuote from: Wayward Memphian on January 15, 2024, 11:35:40 PM
It needs to be a 4 lane divided to the US 65 Junction just north of Harrison, which means the stretch between Huntsville and Alpena gets don't.and a 4 lane divided bypass of Harrision. After that, they can 5 lane/Arkansas freeway the rest if they want. However tey shouldn't settle for that because it would be most beneficial to have an upgradable to interstate 4 lane divided highway between NWA and NEA.
Same could be said from I-155 to Walnut Ridge in conjunction with extending I-555 from Jonesboro at least up to Hardy, if not Mammoth Springs, where Missouri could probably find incentive to match up from there to Willow Springs and US-60. I-555 likely needs a new designation at that point, which I could get on board as I-22.
Between Harrison and Hardy would likely be the last segment to get the treatment due to traffic counts on US-412 in the midsection.
Exactly what needs to happen along with Missouri upgrading US 412 as a four lane divided from the St. Francis River up to Kennett.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Wayward Memphian on January 23, 2024, 03:06:34 PM
Post by: Wayward Memphian on January 23, 2024, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: Wayward Memphian on January 23, 2024, 03:03:51 PMQuote from: MikieTimT on January 16, 2024, 09:27:12 AMQuote from: Wayward Memphian on January 15, 2024, 11:35:40 PM
It needs to be a 4 lane divided to the US 65 Junction just north of Harrison, which means the stretch between Huntsville and Alpena gets don't.and a 4 lane divided bypass of Harrision. After that, they can 5 lane/Arkansas freeway the rest if they want. However tey shouldn't settle for that because it would be most beneficial to have an upgradable to interstate 4 lane divided highway between NWA and NEA.
Same could be said from I-155 to Walnut Ridge in conjunction with extending I-555 from Jonesboro at least up to Hardy, if not Mammoth Springs, where Missouri could probably find incentive to match up from there to Willow Springs and US-60. I-555 likely needs a new designation at that point, which I could get on board as I-22.
Between Harrison and Hardy would likely be the last segment to get the treatment due to traffic counts on US-412 in the midsection.
Exactly what needs to happen along with Missouri upgrading US 412 as a four lane divided from the St. Francis River up to Kennett.
Well, I can't attach a pic
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: swake on March 07, 2024, 04:43:04 PM
Post by: swake on March 07, 2024, 04:43:04 PM
So with the I-344 and I-335 signs going up this month in central Oklahoma, when will ODOT reapply with a different interstate designation number for US-412? Since the designation of "I-42" was rejected as repetitive in the interstate system with I-42 in North Carolina.
Title: Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 07, 2024, 08:28:09 PM
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 07, 2024, 08:28:09 PM
The powers that be have to approve a specific Interstate number well before any plans to install signage can be drafted. They haven't met to approve a specific number yet. We could be years from seeing an Interstate number applied to US-412 in Oklahoma.