St. Louis freeways

[SkyPesos]

I'm in the St Louis area this week, and saw construction going on at the US 67 and MO 340 interchange. Any idea what they're doing there, as I can't find info about that project on MoDOT's site. I'm guessing that the cloverleaf will be reconfigured into a Parclo, as the weaving distance between loop ramps is pretty short here, but I could be wrong.

[m2tbone]

I'm in the St Louis area this week, and saw construction going on at the US 67 and MO 340 interchange. Any idea what they're doing there, as I can't find info about that project on MoDOT's site. I'm guessing that the cloverleaf will be reconfigured into a Parclo, as the weaving distance between loop ramps is pretty short here, but I could be wrong.

Here you go.  The interchange is being reconfigured:  https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/firm-chosen-for-olive-lindbergh-interchange-redesign-in-creve-coeur/article_885bcd67-9848-5a8a-947c-9bfc1c9f29f1.html


iPad Pro

[SkyPesos]

I'm in the St Louis area this week, and saw construction going on at the US 67 and MO 340 interchange. Any idea what they're doing there, as I can't find info about that project on MoDOT's site. I'm guessing that the cloverleaf will be reconfigured into a Parclo, as the weaving distance between loop ramps is pretty short here, but I could be wrong.

Here you go.  The interchange is being reconfigured:  https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/firm-chosen-for-olive-lindbergh-interchange-redesign-in-creve-coeur/article_885bcd67-9848-5a8a-947c-9bfc1c9f29f1.html


iPad Pro

Thanks. Seems like my guess was half correct then. It looks like a folded diamond, but adding in WB-NB and SB-WB access is a plus.

[Revive 755]

Though looking through https://39northstl.com/projects/interchange/, the interchange redo comes with new roads tying into the ramp intersections with MO 340 and a new signal on US 67 at Old Olive.

[SkyPesos]

Though looking through https://39northstl.com/projects/interchange/, the interchange redo comes with new roads tying into the ramp intersections with MO 340 and a new signal on US 67 at Old Olive.

I'm seeing renderings of both a version where Old Olive crosses over US 67 on an overpass, and another at a signalized intersection. Really hoping the overpass version gets chosen, as Old Olive would still have access from the new ramps to MO 340, and new connectors from 340 to Old Olive.

[KCRoadFan]

One thing I've wondered regarding STL-area freeways: why aren't MO 364 and MO 370 called I-364 and I-370 instead? That clearly seems to be what MoDOT was trying to suggest when they built those roads - might as well make it official.

[SkyPesos]

One thing I've wondered regarding STL-area freeways: why aren't MO 364 and MO 370 called I-364 and I-370 instead? That clearly seems to be what MoDOT was trying to suggest when they built those roads - might as well make it official.

AASHTO was being picky and denied MoDOT's request for I-370 for MO 370, and suggested I-870 instead, as the route acts more like a bypass. Yes, the same organization that wanted 540 over 640 as a number for Raleigh's outer beltway. I guess MoDOT gave up on attempts to make MO 370, and MO 364 later down the line, interstates.

[mvak36]

One thing I've wondered regarding STL-area freeways: why aren't MO 364 and MO 370 called I-364 and I-370 instead? That clearly seems to be what MoDOT was trying to suggest when they built those roads - might as well make it official.

AASHTO was being picky and denied MoDOT's request for I-370 for MO 370, and suggested I-870 instead, as the route acts more like a bypass. Yes, the same organization that wanted 540 over 640 as a number for Raleigh's outer beltway. I guess MoDOT gave up on attempts to make MO 370, and MO 364 later down the line, interstates.

I think 364 needs to be upgraded at the interchange with 64 if they want to make it an interstate. I could be wrong on that, but I thought I heard that like 5 or 6 years ago when they were finishing up the connection to I-64.

That being said, I think they should request a designation for both. Not sure if MODOT wants to do it or not.

[SkyPesos]

One thing I've wondered regarding STL-area freeways: why aren't MO 364 and MO 370 called I-364 and I-370 instead? That clearly seems to be what MoDOT was trying to suggest when they built those roads - might as well make it official.

AASHTO was being picky and denied MoDOT's request for I-370 for MO 370, and suggested I-870 instead, as the route acts more like a bypass. Yes, the same organization that wanted 540 over 640 as a number for Raleigh's outer beltway. I guess MoDOT gave up on attempts to make MO 370, and MO 364 later down the line, interstates.

I think 364 needs to be upgraded at the interchange with 64 if they want to make it an interstate.

But that being said, I think they should request a designation for both. Not sure if MODOT wants to do it or not.

Just looked at the I-64 and MO 364 interchange, and it looks like there are a lot of stub ramps that were once planned to be used in the interchange that got left out, most notably an EB 40/61 to EB 364 flyover (in blue), and a second overpass for MO 364 EB (in green). Guess MoDOT did some cost cutting at that interchange? If that's the case, kind of weird imo that they did some cost-cutting on a crucial freeway-freeway interchange on the 364 system, yet built phase 1 out with 10 lanes when it only have the traffic levels for 6 lanes 18 years after opening.

[Revive 755]

^ I seem to recall MoDOT having more cash for the initial section of MO 364.  The section out to US 40 was constructed during MoDOT's leaner years which IIRC resulted in downgrades to the US 40 interchange and the western interchange with MO 94 (MO 94 was supposed to be free-flowing through that interchange).

[wolfiefrick]

Just looked at the I-64 and MO 364 interchange, and it looks like there are a lot of stub ramps that were once planned to be used in the interchange that got left out, most notably an EB 40/61 to EB 364 flyover (in blue), and a second overpass for MO 364 EB (in green). Guess MoDOT did some cost cutting at that interchange? If that's the case, kind of weird imo that they did some cost-cutting on a crucial freeway-freeway interchange on the 364 system, yet built phase 1 out with 10 lanes when it only have the traffic levels for 6 lanes 18 years after opening.

Those stubs weren't for planned flyovers.

Prior to the construction of MO-364, the interchange with I-64 was solely for Route N, which previously continued east and met with Henke Road. The rest of Route N could be accessed by going south on Henke, or by crossing over I-64 on the bridge immediately south of the interchange. It was a partial cloverleaf interchange; those stubs simply were for the signalized intersections that were previously there.

MoDOT simply got lazy and added two extra loop ramps to the south of the existing ramps, a ramp connecting WB 64 to EB 364, and cut off the ramps that met with Route N when they were finishing the MO-364 project. Here's how the interchange appeared in August 2012, about two years before MO-364 was completed:

[SkyPesos]

Just looked at the I-64 and MO 364 interchange, and it looks like there are a lot of stub ramps that were once planned to be used in the interchange that got left out, most notably an EB 40/61 to EB 364 flyover (in blue), and a second overpass for MO 364 EB (in green). Guess MoDOT did some cost cutting at that interchange? If that's the case, kind of weird imo that they did some cost-cutting on a crucial freeway-freeway interchange on the 364 system, yet built phase 1 out with 10 lanes when it only have the traffic levels for 6 lanes 18 years after opening.

Those stubs weren't for planned flyovers.

Prior to the construction of MO-364, the interchange with I-64 was solely for Route N, which previously continued east and met with Henke Road. The rest of Route N could be accessed by going south on Henke, or by crossing over I-64 on the bridge immediately south of the interchange. It was a partial cloverleaf interchange; those stubs simply were for the signalized intersections that were previously there.

MoDOT simply got lazy and added two extra loop ramps to the south of the existing ramps, a ramp connecting WB 64 to EB 364, and cut off the ramps that met with Route N when they were finishing the MO-364 project. Here's how the interchange appeared in August 2012, about two years before MO-364 was completed:

The flyover I drew in blue wasn't a former left turn lane if you looked closely at your August 2012 image, it was definitely a stub. The stub on the top right, however, was a former left turn onto 40/61 WB.

[wolfiefrick]

Those stubs weren't for planned flyovers.

Prior to the construction of MO-364, the interchange with I-64 was solely for Route N, which previously continued east and met with Henke Road. The rest of Route N could be accessed by going south on Henke, or by crossing over I-64 on the bridge immediately south of the interchange. It was a partial cloverleaf interchange; those stubs simply were for the signalized intersections that were previously there.

MoDOT simply got lazy and added two extra loop ramps to the south of the existing ramps, a ramp connecting WB 64 to EB 364, and cut off the ramps that met with Route N when they were finishing the MO-364 project. Here's how the interchange appeared in August 2012, about two years before MO-364 was completed:

The flyover I drew in blue wasn't a former left turn lane if you looked closely at your August 2012 image, it was definitely a stub. The stub on the top right, however, was a former left turn onto 40/61 WB.

Ah, it looks like you're correct. It would make sense for the flyover to go there, though; I wonder if there are archival MoDOT plans that document what that stub might've been for. I'm pretty sure that intersection remained unchanged between the time they built it when they were upgrading that stretch to interstate standards and when they finished MO-364.

[intelati49]

Those stubs weren't for planned flyovers.

Prior to the construction of MO-364, the interchange with I-64 was solely for Route N, which previously continued east and met with Henke Road. The rest of Route N could be accessed by going south on Henke, or by crossing over I-64 on the bridge immediately south of the interchange. It was a partial cloverleaf interchange; those stubs simply were for the signalized intersections that were previously there.

MoDOT simply got lazy and added two extra loop ramps to the south of the existing ramps, a ramp connecting WB 64 to EB 364, and cut off the ramps that met with Route N when they were finishing the MO-364 project. Here's how the interchange appeared in August 2012, about two years before MO-364 was completed:

https://i.imgur.com/vTVnNYa.png

The flyover I drew in blue wasn't a former left turn lane if you looked closely at your August 2012 image, it was definitely a stub. The stub on the top right, however, was a former left turn onto 40/61 WB.

Ah, it looks like you're correct. It would make sense for the flyover to go there, though; I wonder if there are archival MoDOT plans that document what that stub might've been for. I'm pretty sure that intersection remained unchanged between the time they built it when they were upgrading that stretch to interstate standards and when they finished MO-364.

I have said preliminary plans in my archive. Limited access to that harddrive though. Will see if I can attach a screenshot in the near future. But can confirm a two(?) lane flyover

[edwaleni]

My brother lived off Bennington when the original Page Expressway was cancelled. MoDOT sold the land west of Bennington and it was a thriving subdivision for all of 3 years when MoDOT changed their mind and reacquired all that land and had all the houses torn down. Supreme waste of money at the time.

The only "compliance" issue I can see with MO-364 is the non-standard access to Alta Mira back when it was converted to a freeway and stranded the neighborhood. So the exit ramp is really a circle drive and not enough of the slow down lane (IMHO). The rest as i have driven from I-64 to I-270 is interstate grade and should be numbered as such.

[SkyPesos]

My brother lived off Bennington when the original Page Expressway was cancelled. MoDOT sold the land west of Bennington and it was a thriving subdivision for all of 3 years when MoDOT changed their mind and reacquired all that land and had all the houses torn down. Supreme waste of money at the time.

Bet MoDOT had difficulties getting that land back too. I guess they were swimming in cash back then to buy back the land, AND construct Phase 1 with 8 lanes + 2 auxiliary lanes the whole way. Though that will explain why I didn't see that much evidence of houses getting torn down in the area for the freeway when visiting a friend that lives there.

The only "compliance" issue I can see with MO-364 is the non-standard access to Alta Mira back when it was converted to a freeway and stranded the neighborhood. So the exit ramp is really a circle drive and not enough of the slow down lane (IMHO). The rest as i have driven from I-64 to I-270 is interstate grade and should be numbered as such.

The I-64 to Spoede exit is pretty similar with the roundabout connectors, and specifically the WB side, a short ramp.

[intelati49]

I have said preliminary plans in my archive. Limited access to that harddrive though. Will see if I can attach a screenshot in the near future. But can confirm a two(?) lane flyover

[m2tbone]

Here's the latest diagram I've found.  It was part of a Lake St. Louis Board of Alderman information packet from March.  It also includes access to Henke Rd. I'm not sure if this is the latest plan or not.



iPad Pro

[US20IL64]

Used to visit STL region seeing relatives and weddings. Cousins' family lived in 1960 era sub-division by Cave Springs exit, in St. Charles Co. Back in 60's was rural, and their neighborhood [West Clay & Sawyer] seemed like only houses for miles, though I was pre-teen. {Didn't see old part of St. Charles til 1972.}

Then, when there in '73, traffic on I-70 was heavy, and its bridge had potholes. By next visit in '78 was fully suburban, with Target, Venture and other shops at Cave Spgs. In 80's saw new St. Peters Mall and more development to US-40. And, the 270-70 interchange was modernized from cloverleaf. 90s-00s even more built up.

As someone said, was amazed at all the wide free/expressways & interchanges, but then Chicagoland doesn't have the room to expand as much.

Now, like to look at area on Google, and recently joined this site, and interesting to hear what's going on with roads, etc.

[Revive 755]

As someone said, was amazed at all the wide free/expressways & interchanges, but then Chicagoland doesn't have the room willpower/leadership to expand as much.

FTFY

(Edit:  While some would be hard to expand, there are grass medians available on others.)

[SkyPesos]

Used to visit STL region seeing relatives and weddings. Cousins' family lived in 1960 era sub-division by Cave Springs exit, in St. Charles Co. Back in 60's was rural, and their neighborhood [West Clay & Sawyer] seemed like only houses for miles, though I was pre-teen. {Didn't see old part of St. Charles til 1972.}

Then, when there in '73, traffic on I-70 was heavy, and its bridge had potholes. By next visit in '78 was fully suburban, with Target, Venture and other shops at Cave Spgs. In 80's saw new St. Peters Mall and more development to US-40. And, the 270-70 interchange was modernized from cloverleaf. 90s-00s even more built up.

As someone said, was amazed at all the wide free/expressways & interchanges, but then Chicagoland doesn't have the room to expand as much.

Now, like to look at area on Google, and recently joined this site, and interesting to hear what's going on with roads, etc.

Do you remember if I-70 in St Charles County (specifically the area around Cave Springs you mentioned) was 4 lanes or 6 lanes back then? Based on the satellite image, with different pavement color and a narrow left shoulder (6 feet, opposed to the 10 feet required in interstate standards), I have a feeling that it was originally 4 lanes, and later widened to 6 in the inside. I could be wrong.

[jakeroot]

^^^

It was definitely widened, sometime in the 1970s if I had to guess:

https://www.historicaerials.com/location/38.78973355916036/-90.54886107419532/1968/17

[74/171FAN]

Does anyone have photographic evidence what exit number that MO 94/MO 364 has for the new Heritage Crossing exit?

[SkyPesos]

Does anyone have photographic evidence what exit number that MO 94/MO 364 has for the new Heritage Crossing exit?

Google Maps says that it's exit 13A, though I'm really hoping that it is wrong, and that it's exit 12 instead, as that's the number used in the WB direction for Heritage Crossing. And Wikipedia haven't updated their page for MO 364 yet.

[US20IL64]

Used to visit STL region seeing relatives and weddings. Cousins' family lived in 1960 era sub-division by Cave Springs exit, in St. Charles Co. Back in 60's was rural, and their neighborhood [West Clay & Sawyer] seemed like only houses for miles, though I was pre-teen. {Didn't see old part of St. Charles til 1972.}

Then, when there in '73, traffic on I-70 was heavy, and its bridge had potholes. By next visit in '78 was fully suburban, with Target, Venture and other shops at Cave Spgs. In 80's saw new St. Peters Mall and more development to US-40. And, the 270-70 interchange was modernized from cloverleaf. 90s-00s even more built up.

As someone said, was amazed at all the wide free/expressways & interchanges, but then Chicagoland doesn't have the room to expand as much.

Now, like to look at area on Google, and recently joined this site, and interesting to hear what's going on with roads, etc.

Do you remember if I-70 in St Charles County (specifically the area around Cave Springs you mentioned) was 4 lanes or 6 lanes back then? Based on the satellite image, with different pavement color and a narrow left shoulder (6 feet, opposed to the 10 feet required in interstate standards), I have a feeling that it was originally 4 lanes, and later widened to 6 in the inside. I could be wrong.

I-70 was 4 lanes back then, [late 60's]. Was clogged by 1972/73. By 1978, MO was building 2nd bridge, and then 70 was 6 lanes.