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I-66 HO/T Lanes

Started by froggie, January 23, 2015, 02:46:25 PM

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Steve D

Quote from: Mapmikey on May 27, 2017, 09:33:12 PM
There is one on the outer loop prior to the Dulles Toll Rd but it has been covered since installation.  The two that are visible on the inner loop have a really sharp VA 7 shield (resembles a cutout) IMO...
There are two of these new signs on the Dulles Toll Road/Access Road just prior to the Beltway.

These signs look so different than the toll rate signs for the 495 HOT Lanes (which are mostly dot-matrix) - much cheaper looking, with the toll in a small box, similar to that in Maryland for Toll 200 (Intercounty Connector).  Also, the signs list Washington Blvd on one line and just Washington (as in DC; Roosevelt Bridge) on the next which seems odd.


1995hoo

#201
Quote from: Steve D on May 27, 2017, 09:40:42 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 27, 2017, 09:33:12 PM
There is one on the outer loop prior to the Dulles Toll Rd but it has been covered since installation.  The two that are visible on the inner loop have a really sharp VA 7 shield (resembles a cutout) IMO...
There are two of these new signs on the Dulles Toll Road/Access Road just prior to the Beltway.

These signs look so different than the toll rate signs for the 495 HOT Lanes (which are mostly dot-matrix) - much cheaper looking, with the toll in a small box, similar to that in Maryland for Toll 200 (Intercounty Connector).  Also, the signs list Washington Blvd on one line and just Washington (as in DC; Roosevelt Bridge) on the next which seems odd.

I found it a little odd not to see the Ballston exit listed on there in some form (the Fairfax Drive exit, although the signs say Glebe Road).

I'll be interested in hearing the public reaction to the signs (too bad Dr. Gridlock retired!) simply because, as you note, they're different from the other HO/T lane signs in Northern Virginia. A lot of people claim to have found the signs confusing for the existing lanes, so (assuming they were actually confused) I would expect those people would be confounded by a different style of sign now!

I didn't get any pictures yesterday because we didn't go further than I-395 on the Beltway. The day took a different course than we had planned.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

Shrouded price sign seen at US-29 (Lee Hwy) and I-66

Mapmikey

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 29, 2017, 08:50:06 AM

I'll be interested in hearing the public reaction to the signs (too bad Dr. Gridlock retired!) simply because, as you note, they're different from the other HO/T lane signs in Northern Virginia. A lot of people claim to have found the signs confusing for the existing lanes, so (assuming they were actually confused) I would expect those people would be confounded by a different style of sign now!


The different design could be intentional, since some of the destinations are the same.  Imagine coming up the Inner Loop and seeing another dot matrix sign telling you the toll to VA 7...if the sign were indistinguishable from the current ones you might think that toll applies to you.

Wonder if the signs along I-66 itself will also be this different design...I assume they will be...


1995hoo

Quote from: Mapmikey on May 29, 2017, 11:22:25 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 29, 2017, 08:50:06 AM

I'll be interested in hearing the public reaction to the signs (too bad Dr. Gridlock retired!) simply because, as you note, they're different from the other HO/T lane signs in Northern Virginia. A lot of people claim to have found the signs confusing for the existing lanes, so (assuming they were actually confused) I would expect those people would be confounded by a different style of sign now!


The different design could be intentional, since some of the destinations are the same.  Imagine coming up the Inner Loop and seeing another dot matrix sign telling you the toll to VA 7...if the sign were indistinguishable from the current ones you might think that toll applies to you.

Wonder if the signs along I-66 itself will also be this different design...I assume they will be...

That makes a lot of sense. I also recall mtantillo of this forum noting some time ago how the federal standards for these sorts of signs have evolved considerably since Virginia got approval for the original signs for the Beltway HO/T lanes. No doubt that factored in as well.

The sign I saw last week near Rosslyn looked similar to the ones I saw on the Beltway, but I couldn't see what the destinations were due to trees in the way.

Seeing these signs going up is making me think maybe it's time to order the E-ZPass Flexes, but I may wait because there's no sign of the tolling equipment yet. Yeah, I'm being cheap about that $10 fee!
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

http://wtop.com/virginia/2017/06/mcauliffe-tolls-not-reached-tipping-point-yet-in-no-va/

QuoteMcAuliffe: Tolls not reached tipping point yet in No. Va.

WASHINGTON – Northern Virginia roads are not yet maxed out on tolling, Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe said Wednesday.

Quote"You make the decision whether you want to pay the toll or not,"  McAuliffe said. "This is done. This was a contract that was signed with a private company, as you know. But you clearly can stay in the free lanes, and you have to make that choice if it works for your business or doesn't work for your business."

1995hoo

For once I agree with McAuliffe. People think the tolls are too high? As I've said before, that says to me the variable tolling system is probably working as intended for the most part, especially because in my admittedly unscientific observation the traffic usually keeps moving pretty well (southern end of the I-95 lanes excepted, but I seldom go down I-95 these days). It seems to me that if the "free" lanes are stopped, the toll lanes have a toll of $11.00 to go eight miles, and the toll lanes are moving at 70 mph, then the system is working correctly. I guess to me it's capitalism in action on the roads. The service is worth what people are willing to pay. So far the maximum I've paid at rush hour from I-66 to Springfield was $20.30 on a rainy afternoon a few weeks ago, and it was worth it that day. I'm not sure at what point I'd say "too much." What I might do if the toll got too much higher would be to pay the smaller toll to Gallows Road and come the rest of the way home via the streets. The Gallows/Backlick combination used to be a route I used in the mornings sometimes prior to the construction of the HO/T lanes.

It IS a big problem when the toll lanes are at a crawl because of a wreck or other incident and they jack up the toll rate to discourage traffic from entering, yet if you go in there you get stuck barely moving. I have no idea what the solution is short of crediting the toll back to people's accounts.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

As you mentioned, the fact that the tolls are "too high" for some people means that the system is in fact working.

I'd be more interested to know how many people who back in 2010 said they would "never use the lanes" are now at least occasional HOT lane users. Those open lanes must be very tempting.

1995hoo

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 01, 2017, 10:49:53 PM
As you mentioned, the fact that the tolls are "too high" for some people means that the system is in fact working.

I'd be more interested to know how many people who back in 2010 said they would "never use the lanes" are now at least occasional HOT lane users. Those open lanes must be very tempting.

I'd like to know that as well, especially as to travel outside of rush hours when the tolls are lower. I know some people who say there's no reason to use them outside rush hour, but one reason why I will use them is convenience with the new exits–exiting directly onto Route 29, for example, instead of going around via Fairview Park. (This is likely less of an issue on I-95 due to there being fewer new ramps.)

In my again unscientific observation, the Beltway lanes have gotten considerably busier in the four and a half years since they opened, especially at rush hour.

I'd also love to know what the count of toll violators is, since there are plenty of people who claim they'll go in HOV mode even as solo drivers because they won't be caught. Certainly some of that goes on.

On I-95, I've wondered whether slugging has expanded much outside the traditional HOV hours. In theory, the HO/T lanes provide an incentive for slugging to operate at other times because it lets drivers use the lanes for free.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

My guess is that you have some increased slugging at the margins of the former peak hours, but also you're going to lose slugging during the peak hours (e.g. people who used carpooling to use the carriageway but now pay their way on). My guess is a net loss in slugging.

I-66, for a number of reasons I think, will see increases in slugging (mostly due to the loss of spouse-pooling).

1995hoo

Picture taken about half an hour ago on my way to Fair Oaks. I noted there is one of these above the HO/T lanes and one above the general-purpose lanes and that's it. Don't know if there will be another added.

I agree with Mapmikey about how the Route 7 shield looks good. Much better than most current VDOT signage does.

"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

#211
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 03, 2017, 01:05:23 PM
Picture taken about half an hour ago on my way to Fair Oaks. I noted there is one of these above the HO/T lanes and one above the general-purpose lanes and that's it. Don't know if there will be another added.

I agree with Mapmikey about how the Route 7 shield looks good. Much better than most current VDOT signage does.



Great catch!

I agree the VA-7 shield looks good (and lots better than the awful "secondary" VA-7 on Market Street in Leesburg, which I think is still there, and at least one awful shield on westbound VA-7 west of Leesburg). 

Otherwise, I do not like this much below the VA-7 shield:

0. No mention of VA-120 (North Glebe Road).  A lot of traffic exits I-66 eastbound in the mornings to Ballston.

1. They could have put in a VA-237 shield (which is Washington  Boulevard from the I-66 interchange to VA-120), they could also have paired it with U.S. 29 (Lee Highway).  My  own preference would have been for a U.S. 29 and VA-237 shields with no street name.

2. "Washington" is IMO also misleading, since I think the tolled part ends at the Rosslyn Tunnel, so signing it Washington and Rosslyn would make better sense, even if Washington  had to be abbreviated, as it already is for Washington Boulevard.

3. The two Washingtons could also cause confusion.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

I definitely agree with your point "zero" about Ballston. As to the city name, I think "Washington DC" would be clearer. I've seen it used on a few signs here and there, but not often.

I'm not sure putting a Route 237 shield with no name would be helpful to most drivers because it's not a route number I think most people ever use.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

#213
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 01, 2017, 10:49:53 PM
As you mentioned, the fact that the tolls are "too high" for some people means that the system is in fact working.

I agree.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 01, 2017, 10:49:53 PM
I'd be more interested to know how many people who back in 2010 said they would "never use the lanes" are now at least occasional HOT lane users. Those open lanes must be very tempting.

The anti-ICC cottage industry in Montgomery County made similar claims, saying that the tolls would be "too high" once it opened to traffic to complete the connection from I-270 to I-95 (of course, these were some of the same people that wanted massively higher motor fuel taxes, with  all of the dollars going to transit subsidies). 

MD-200 carries plenty of paying traffic now, though I still see propaganda from time-to-time that "nobody uses the ICC" (those are usually patently false statements).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 03, 2017, 05:48:11 PM
I definitely agree with your point "zero" about Ballston. As to the city name, I think "Washington DC" would be clearer. I've seen it used on a few signs here and there, but not often.

I'm not sure putting a Route 237 shield with no name would be helpful to most drivers because it's not a route number I think most people ever use.

My preference would have been U.S. 29 and VA-237, consistent with how I-66 eastbound approaching Exit 69 (Washington Boulevard) is signed now.

U.S. 29 and VA-237 have always been signed on the eastbound side of I-66 approaching Exit 69 at East Falls Church.  VA-237 (with VA-120) is also signed eastbound approaching Exit 71 at Fairfax Drive/North Glebe Road/Ballston.

However, there is no mention of VA-237 westbound approaching Exit 71 (I-66 is signed for VA-120), and no mention of U.S. 29 or VA-237 westbound approaching Exit 69 (it is signed for Sycamore Street and Falls Church and nothing else).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

AlexandriaVA

Nobody in Arlington refers to it as "VA-237". I didn't even know there was a route number. At least US-29/Lee Hwy has some currency to both descriptions.

1995hoo

I finally get to follow up! On Sunday night we were on the Dulles Toll Road coming back from L'Auberge Che François and I noted the I-66 toll signs on there listed Wash Blvd, Fairfax Dr, and Washington (no picture, traffic was busy and I was driving my wife's new car so I didn't want to divert my attention from driving). "Fairfax Dr" is, of course, a more accurate listing for the "Glebe Road" exit inbound.

Another smaller sign in the median noted tolling hours will be from 5:30 to 9:30. I believe that's an extension of the current HOV-2 hours, which I think are 6:00 to 9:30. I didn't get a good look at the rest of the sign.

Finally, Adam Tuss of Channel 4 reports tolls will begin in December. They still have to put up the equipment and test it before real operations begin.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

I should also make it clear that I personally think tolls are the right way to deal with  congestion in the I-66 corridor (as demonstrated elsewhere, as the tolled lanes on I-495; I-395 and I-95 and MD-200 are working).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 09, 2017, 11:23:47 AM
I should also make it clear that I personally think tolls are the right way to deal with  congestion in the I-66 corridor (as demonstrated elsewhere, as the tolled lanes on I-495; I-395 and I-95 and MD-200 are working).

I agree with this as a general matter, subject to the caveat (which doesn't apply to I-66) that I do not like the idea of imposing an HO/T restriction on lanes that are generally-available unless the road is reconstructed or otherwise seriously improved.

In other words, on I-66 inside the Beltway they're imposing peak-direction HO/T during a minimally-expanded version of existing HOV hours, so essentially what they're doing is selling the excess capacity to people willing to pay to access it. That's fine with me. If instead they had made the existing road two-way 24/7 HO/T, I think it would be a very serious problem unless the road underwent major reconstruction to the point of being essentially a new road paid for by the tolls. I'm not sure I think the I-95 lanes meet that criterion, although it doesn't stop me from using them when I feel the need.

I guess in my mind the difference is that if you convert HOV to HO/T during more or less the same hours, you're basically allowing all the same people who are already using the road to continue to use the road while creating a new option for previously-ineligible people (and yes, I know I-66 will change from HOV-2-with-Flex to HOV-3-with-Flex in a few years). If you impose HO/T on a previously free road, you're sort of taking away an option.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

#219
[Note that the comments in this article are amusing]

ARLNow.com: Historic Preservationists Say I-66 Project Threatens Highway's History

QuoteA plan to revamp Interstate 66 is threatening the character of the Custis Memorial Parkway, the highway's name inside the Capital Beltway, historic preservation advocates said today (Wednesday).

QuotePreservation Arlington, a nonprofit group that looks to protect Arlington's architectural heritage, released its annual list of "endangered historic places,"  with the parkway named as one.

QuoteThe Virginia Department of Transportation is in the midst of an ambitious plan known as "Transform 66"  to widen I-66 from the Dulles Connector Road to the Fairfax Drive exit in Ballston within the existing eastbound right-of-way.

QuoteUnder the plan, VDOT would also add tolls and improve local trails, as well as build a pedestrian bridge in East Falls Church.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jeffandnicole

Quote"Plantings are no longer maintained. Corten steel guardrails and sign supports are being replaced with standard, steel interstate highway components,"  the group wrote. "The new toll road gantries, and large, new sign supports (and highway signage) on nearby arterial roads have further eroded the parkway's ability to blend into its surroundings."

LOL

cpzilliacus

#221
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 09, 2017, 05:11:35 PM
I agree with this as a general matter, subject to the caveat (which doesn't apply to I-66) that I do not like the idea of imposing an HO/T restriction on lanes that are generally-available unless the road is reconstructed or otherwise seriously improved.

In general, I agree with you, though there are probably exceptions out there somewhere.

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 09, 2017, 05:11:35 PM
In other words, on I-66 inside the Beltway they're imposing peak-direction HO/T during a minimally-expanded version of existing HOV hours, so essentially what they're doing is selling the excess capacity to people willing to pay to access it. That's fine with me. If instead they had made the existing road two-way 24/7 HO/T, I think it would be a very serious problem unless the road underwent major reconstruction to the point of being essentially a new road paid for by the tolls. I'm not sure I think the I-95 lanes meet that criterion, although it doesn't stop me from using them when I feel the need.

I would rather have the pricing, raise the HOV requirement back to HOV-3 and get rid of the recurring congestion (which was not supposed to be there, but which has gotten worse over the years (as a result of growth in traffic, the Dulles exception and a relaxation of the  HOV requirement from HOV-4 to HOV-3 to HOV-2)).

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 09, 2017, 05:11:35 PM
I guess in my mind the difference is that if you convert HOV to HO/T during more or less the same hours, you're basically allowing all the same people who are already using the road to continue to use the road while creating a new option for previously-ineligible people (and yes, I know I-66 will change from HOV-2-with-Flex to HOV-3-with-Flex in a few years). If you impose HO/T on a previously free road, you're sort of taking away an option.

I could be convinced to suggest pricing in almost any congested highway corridor (or at least provide a non-congested priced alternative in the way that the Transurban lanes do today on I-495 and I-95 and a small part of I-395) - but - such a change (from totally free to priced with an HOV component) should be subject to a lot of (public) scrutiny and discussion.

MD-200 got an excessive amount of same, but the toll road that is there today is vastly better than what had been envisioned in the 1970's and early 1980's (the 1983 (!) DEIS for MD-200 is online and can be found via its Wikipedia article).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

74/171FAN

WTOP:  Va. to spend $2M more for new I-66 toll lanes

QuoteThe Interstate 66 rush-hour toll system inside the Capital Beltway that is due to begin charging solo drivers in December will cost at least $2 million more up front than previously planned.
"With the tolling coming online for the first time, this dynamic pricing for the first time for VDOT, it was requested [by VDOT Commissioner Charles Kilpatrick and Secretary of Transportation Aubrey Layne] that we extend our testing into a further testing program,"  Baxter said.

While there are other, similar toll lanes in the state, those are operated privately rather than through direct VDOT control. Full testing and training required staffing up to a level close to what will be needed when tolling begins, but without having the toll revenue coming in to begin paying the salaries.

During testing through November, Baxter said drivers will see images or text on the new message signs along I-66; and crews will test E-ZPass reader boxes, cameras and beacons that will identify non-HOV users.
The Virginia Department of Transportation is asking the Commonwealth Transportation Board Wednesday to approve the additional $2 million in order to keep the project on schedule, based on VDOT and contractor estimates for upcoming costs.

I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

1995hoo

"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

Full-page color ad in the Sunday Post (12 November)




Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.