HAWK Thread

[Amtrakprod]

It has been my experience that no one understands the HAWK. The biggest reason is that the wig-wag/flashing lights is too similar to railroad crossings, so everyone stops and waits until the lights turn off. RYG is the only thing that people understand fully.

This is also been the case in New Hampshire, specifically in Concord, Epping, Londonderry, and Meredith (there is another one in Meredith on US-3 between Dover and Lake Rd). Many NH drivers just remain stopped during the flashing red interval, especially when there is a State Trooper nearby (this happened recently in Epping). Some drivers, mostly Massachusetts drivers, honk at the lead driver(s) during the flashing red phase. Most drivers in Massachusetts seem to understand what to do at PHB/HAWK signals, albeit most roll through the flashing red phase w/o a complete stop.

I should mention that the speed limit on where the PHB/HAWK signals were installed in NH was 65 km/h (40mph), with the exception of the two Meredith signals being 50 km/h (30mph). At one time in Londonderry (NH 28), a lorry (tracter-trailer) almost got rear-ended by a car not paying attention and following too close, and when I tried to cross, two drivers travelling about 80-90 km/h (50-55 mph) blew the solid red when my WALK signal was on for well after three seconds, and had to wait for those drivers at the kerb to pass before I could safely cross.

Also, how does preemption work at PHB/HAWK, or standard R-Y-G (or FY) pelican crossing? Found these near Quincy, Massachusetts near the Quincy College:
Hancock St near Quincy College
Second Hancock St location

For the first one: that may due to the fact that I found no sign explaining what to do on flashing red. Also I think those detectors are for intersections ahead.


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

We need to update the laws, alternating red should mean STOP like a red light, and flashing red should be STOP than proceed. All hawks should just use the lights to flash double so it's not alternating.


iPhone

Or we can use the same laws, and just use a steady red light.  Because in your example, alternating red lights means go would mean no one needs to stop and stay stopped for school buses.

Correct, the laws should be consistent.

I think a school bus would have its own rules, since it is a vehicle, not a stationary signal.  The flash is just meant to get your attention.

So generally, steady red is stop and only proceed when the light is exingusihed.  Flashing red is stop, then proceed when clear - essentially the equivalent to a stop sign.

Why is it different for R/R signals, where they flash, even though you're supposed to wait there until the lights stop flashing?  I don't have a good answer.

I've seen differing treatments for drawbridges.  Some are controlled by RYG signals.  Some are controlled by signals that are similar to R/R crossings.

In addition to the previous question I mentioned about HAWK and preemptions, after yielding to pedestrians in the crosswalk, is it legal to make a right turn on red onto another street during the solid red phase? This is assuming that the signal has no signs prohibiting turning right on red and the HAWK is placed near an intersection... which the MUTCD recommends that they should be located at least 30 m (100 ft) from an intersection.

If a HAWk is placed at an intersection, then it should be treated no differently than a regular red orb signal, so I think RTOR should be generally allowed at HAWKs.

I think railroad crossings have alternating red lights because they attract more attention to the crossing. Also I was thinking maybe railroad crossing should have reflective borders too.


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

So generally, steady red is stop and only proceed when the light is exingusihed.  Flashing red is stop, then proceed when clear - essentially the equivalent to a stop sign.

Why is it different for R/R signals, where they flash, even though you're supposed to wait there until the lights stop flashing?  I don't have a good answer.

Hmm, maybe we need to re-think that.  I asked about this in Reply #84, and jeffandnicole answered that it's permitted to cross a railroad while the lights are still flashing as long as it's safe to do so.  I didn't have time then to look it up, but take a gander at the Universal Vehicle Code:

ARTICLE VII--SPECIAL STOPS REQUIRED

§ 11-701 – Obedience to signal indicating approach of train

(a) Whenever any person driving a vehicle approaches a railroad grade crossing under any of the circumstances stated in this section, the driver of such vehicle shall stop within 50 feet but not less than 15 feet from the nearest rail of such railroad, and shall not proceed until it is safe to do so. The foregoing requirements shall apply when :

1. A clearly visible electric or mechanical signal device gives warning of the immediate approach of a railroad train;

2. A crossing gate is lowered or when a human flagger gives or continues to give a signal of the approach or passage of a railroad train;

3. A railroad train approaching within approximately 1,500 feet of the highway crossing emits a signal audible from such distance, or such railroad train by reason of its speed or nearness to such crossing is an immediate hazard;

4. An approaching railroad train is plainly visible and is in hazardous proximity to such crossing.

(b) No person shall drive any vehicle through, around or under any crossing gate or barrier at a railroad crossing while such gate or barrier is closed or is being opened or closed.

It a railroad has gates, then you aren't allowed to cross it while the gates are down.  But, if a railroad has no gates, then you are allowed to cross it even if the lights are flashing.  The flashing lights at a railroad, therefore, should be interpreted to mean "Stop, then proceed when clear".

That's the dumbest rule I've heard.


iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

So generally, steady red is stop and only proceed when the light is exingusihed.  Flashing red is stop, then proceed when clear - essentially the equivalent to a stop sign.

Why is it different for R/R signals, where they flash, even though you're supposed to wait there until the lights stop flashing?  I don't have a good answer.

Hmm, maybe we need to re-think that.  I asked about this in Reply #84, and jeffandnicole answered that it's permitted to cross a railroad while the lights are still flashing as long as it's safe to do so.  I didn't have time then to look it up, but take a gander at the Universal Vehicle Code:

ARTICLE VII--SPECIAL STOPS REQUIRED

§ 11-701 — Obedience to signal indicating approach of train

(a) Whenever any person driving a vehicle approaches a railroad grade crossing under any of the circumstances stated in this section, the driver of such vehicle shall stop within 50 feet but not less than 15 feet from the nearest rail of such railroad, and shall not proceed until it is safe to do so. The foregoing requirements shall apply when :

1. A clearly visible electric or mechanical signal device gives warning of the immediate approach of a railroad train;

2. A crossing gate is lowered or when a human flagger gives or continues to give a signal of the approach or passage of a railroad train;

3. A railroad train approaching within approximately 1,500 feet of the highway crossing emits a signal audible from such distance, or such railroad train by reason of its speed or nearness to such crossing is an immediate hazard;

4. An approaching railroad train is plainly visible and is in hazardous proximity to such crossing.

(b) No person shall drive any vehicle through, around or under any crossing gate or barrier at a railroad crossing while such gate or barrier is closed or is being opened or closed.

It a railroad has gates, then you aren't allowed to cross it while the gates are down.  But, if a railroad has no gates, then you are allowed to cross it even if the lights are flashing.  The flashing lights at a railroad, therefore, should be interpreted to mean "Stop, then proceed when clear".

That’s the dumbest rule I’ve heard.


iPhone

In theory, if the gates are down, you can't go thru the gates.  In order to go around the gates, you will need to cross the yellow line, which is illegal as well, especially if it's a double yellow or no passing on your side of the road.

If there's an obvious problem with the gates you may not have a choice other than to go around them though.  But if you *think* there's a problem with the gates, you go around them and a train is approaching, then you're going to lose.

[mrsman]

R/R crossings and drawbridges* should be absolute full stopping.  The signaliztion should be in place to not permit proceeding until the RR crossing or drawbridge is 100% clear.

A ped crossing is different.  Acknowledging the reality that many times peds can actually cross a lot faster than the mandated 3.5 ft/sec, we know that the ped xing can be clear before the light changes to green.  To account for that, cars may proceed after coming to a complete stop, if the peds are no longer present.

It is true that flashing red is more noticeable then solid red, yet it is troubling that flashing red is used for R/R crossings, which should only be on when a train is present or approaching.  When trains are not approaching, the signals can be off.  In no way it is a good idea to proceed if a R/R signal is flashing.

* Most drawbridges seem to use standard RYG signals, but I have seen a couple that tend to use R/R type signals.  Of course, a solid red is used while the bridge is up so that cars do not drive into the water.

[Big John]

* Most drawbridges seem to use standard RYG signals, but I have seen a couple that tend to use R/R type signals.  Of course, a solid red is used while the bridge is up so that cars do not drive into the water.

That is the current MUTCD requirement.  The alternating red option had them vertically aligned.

[kphoger]

It is true that flashing red is more noticeable then solid red, yet it is troubling that flashing red is used for R/R crossings, which should only be on when a train is present or approaching.  When trains are not approaching, the signals can be off.  In no way it is a good idea to proceed if a R/R signal is flashing.

Think of a single-track railroad.  The train finishes crossing the road, but the signal won't stop flashing for another 20 seconds or whatever.  How is it unsafe to cross the railroad?  You can clearly see no train is following on that one's heels, and obviously no train is coming from the other direction because it's a single track.

[kphoger]

So generally, steady red is stop and only proceed when the light is exingusihed.  Flashing red is stop, then proceed when clear - essentially the equivalent to a stop sign.

Why is it different for R/R signals, where they flash, even though you're supposed to wait there until the lights stop flashing?  I don't have a good answer.

Hmm, maybe we need to re-think that.  I asked about this in Reply #84, and jeffandnicole answered that it's permitted to cross a railroad while the lights are still flashing as long as it's safe to do so.  I didn't have time then to look it up, but take a gander at the Universal Vehicle Code:

ARTICLE VII--SPECIAL STOPS REQUIRED

§ 11-701 – Obedience to signal indicating approach of train

(a) Whenever any person driving a vehicle approaches a railroad grade crossing under any of the circumstances stated in this section, the driver of such vehicle shall stop within 50 feet but not less than 15 feet from the nearest rail of such railroad, and shall not proceed until it is safe to do so. The foregoing requirements shall apply when :

1. A clearly visible electric or mechanical signal device gives warning of the immediate approach of a railroad train;

2. A crossing gate is lowered or when a human flagger gives or continues to give a signal of the approach or passage of a railroad train;

3. A railroad train approaching within approximately 1,500 feet of the highway crossing emits a signal audible from such distance, or such railroad train by reason of its speed or nearness to such crossing is an immediate hazard;

4. An approaching railroad train is plainly visible and is in hazardous proximity to such crossing.

(b) No person shall drive any vehicle through, around or under any crossing gate or barrier at a railroad crossing while such gate or barrier is closed or is being opened or closed.

It a railroad has gates, then you aren't allowed to cross it while the gates are down.  But, if a railroad has no gates, then you are allowed to cross it even if the lights are flashing.  The flashing lights at a railroad, therefore, should be interpreted to mean "Stop, then proceed when clear".

That's the dumbest rule I've heard.

For what it's worth, the law in Massachusetts states you can't go until the light stops flashing.  The law in New Jersey has no such stipulation.

[Amtrakprod]

So generally, steady red is stop and only proceed when the light is exingusihed.  Flashing red is stop, then proceed when clear - essentially the equivalent to a stop sign.

Why is it different for R/R signals, where they flash, even though you're supposed to wait there until the lights stop flashing?  I don't have a good answer.

Hmm, maybe we need to re-think that.  I asked about this in Reply #84, and jeffandnicole answered that it's permitted to cross a railroad while the lights are still flashing as long as it's safe to do so.  I didn't have time then to look it up, but take a gander at the Universal Vehicle Code:

ARTICLE VII--SPECIAL STOPS REQUIRED

§ 11-701 – Obedience to signal indicating approach of train

(a) Whenever any person driving a vehicle approaches a railroad grade crossing under any of the circumstances stated in this section, the driver of such vehicle shall stop within 50 feet but not less than 15 feet from the nearest rail of such railroad, and shall not proceed until it is safe to do so. The foregoing requirements shall apply when :

1. A clearly visible electric or mechanical signal device gives warning of the immediate approach of a railroad train;

2. A crossing gate is lowered or when a human flagger gives or continues to give a signal of the approach or passage of a railroad train;

3. A railroad train approaching within approximately 1,500 feet of the highway crossing emits a signal audible from such distance, or such railroad train by reason of its speed or nearness to such crossing is an immediate hazard;

4. An approaching railroad train is plainly visible and is in hazardous proximity to such crossing.

(b) No person shall drive any vehicle through, around or under any crossing gate or barrier at a railroad crossing while such gate or barrier is closed or is being opened or closed.

It a railroad has gates, then you aren't allowed to cross it while the gates are down.  But, if a railroad has no gates, then you are allowed to cross it even if the lights are flashing.  The flashing lights at a railroad, therefore, should be interpreted to mean "Stop, then proceed when clear".

That's the dumbest rule I've heard.

For what it's worth, the law in Massachusetts states you can't go until the light stops flashing.  The law in New Jersey has no such stipulation.

That's the law in Texas as well.


iPhone

[kphoger]

That's the law in Texas as well.

I suppose that depends on how the phrase "until permitted to proceed" is construed.  The actual vehicle code doesn't mention having to wait for the light to stop flashing, but it does include that phrase.

[mrsman]

* Most drawbridges seem to use standard RYG signals, but I have seen a couple that tend to use R/R type signals.  Of course, a solid red is used while the bridge is up so that cars do not drive into the water.

That is the current MUTCD requirement.  The alternating red option had them vertically aligned.

Here is a GSV of the State St drawbidge in Chicago.  The drawbridge signal has a 5-stack all red orbs.

It seems that the drawbridge closing is independent of the nearby signals (at Wacker Dr.)  Drawbridge signal is red, even though the signal on State at Upper Wacker is green.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8866561,-87.627903,3a,75y,6.88h,78.43t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIZat4v05dUcgCnZ30N-jGg!2e0!5s20140501T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[jakeroot]

* Most drawbridges seem to use standard RYG signals, but I have seen a couple that tend to use R/R type signals.  Of course, a solid red is used while the bridge is up so that cars do not drive into the water.

That is the current MUTCD requirement.  The alternating red option had them vertically aligned.

Here is a GSV of the State St drawbidge in Chicago.  The drawbridge signal has a 5-stack all red orbs.

It seems that the drawbridge closing is independent of the nearby signals (at Wacker Dr.)  Drawbridge signal is red, even though the signal on State at Upper Wacker is green.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8866561,-87.627903,3a,75y,6.88h,78.43t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIZat4v05dUcgCnZ30N-jGg!2e0!5s20140501T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Looks like the centre (median) signal has been removed. Does the bridge not open or close (to traffic) as it used to?

[Amtrakprod]

Looks like the law is different in IN, as the sign by the railroad crossing reads; "Do not proceed when lights are flashing".
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6167991,-86.7168943,3a,57.6y,167.2h,91.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRJefTopaIwzjWHEEwaOVtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[kphoger]

Looks like the law is different in IN, as the sign by the railroad crossing reads; "Do not proceed when lights are flashing".
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6167991,-86.7168943,3a,57.6y,167.2h,91.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRJefTopaIwzjWHEEwaOVtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

1.  That's a warning sign, which means it is not regulatory in nature.

2.  I cannot find any such restriction in the Indiana state laws.  As a matter of fact, I don't even see a law prohibiting a driver from going around lowered gates:  pedestrians yes, but not vehicles.    Below is the applicable statute.

Whenever a person who drives a vehicle approaches a railroad grade crossing, the person shall stop within fifty (50) feet but not less than fifteen (15) feet from the nearest track of the railroad and may not proceed until the person can do so safely under the following circumstances:

(1) When a clearly visible electric or mechanical signal device gives warning of the immediate approach of a train or other on-track equipment.

(2) When a crossing gate is lowered or when a human flagman gives or continues to give a signal of the approach or passage of a train or other on-track equipment.

(3) When a railroad train or other on-track equipment approaching within one thousand five hundred (1,500) feet of a highway crossing emits an audible signal and because of speed or nearness to the crossing is an immediate hazard.

(4) When an approaching train or other on-track equipment is plainly visible and is in hazardous proximity to the crossing.

[fwydriver405]

Looks like the law is different in IN, as the sign by the railroad crossing reads; "Do not proceed when lights are flashing".
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6167991,-86.7168943,3a,57.6y,167.2h,91.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRJefTopaIwzjWHEEwaOVtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

1.  That's a warning sign, which means it is not regulatory in nature.

2.  I cannot find any such restriction in the Indiana state laws.  As a matter of fact, I don't even see a law prohibiting a driver from going around lowered gates:  pedestrians yes, but not vehicles.    Below is the applicable statute.

Whenever a person who drives a vehicle approaches a railroad grade crossing, the person shall stop within fifty (50) feet but not less than fifteen (15) feet from the nearest track of the railroad and may not proceed until the person can do so safely under the following circumstances:

(1) When a clearly visible electric or mechanical signal device gives warning of the immediate approach of a train or other on-track equipment.

(2) When a crossing gate is lowered or when a human flagman gives or continues to give a signal of the approach or passage of a train or other on-track equipment.

(3) When a railroad train or other on-track equipment approaching within one thousand five hundred (1,500) feet of a highway crossing emits an audible signal and because of speed or nearness to the crossing is an immediate hazard.

(4) When an approaching train or other on-track equipment is plainly visible and is in hazardous proximity to the crossing.

Maine and New Hampshire have a similar law to Indiana's as well, minus the going around a lowered gate in Maine...

2. Warning devices.   An operator of a motor vehicle approaching a railroad crossing shall do so in a manner so that the operator will be able to stop if necessary. The operator shall stop the vehicle not less than 15 feet and not more than 50 feet from the nearest rail of the railroad track and may not proceed if:

A. A clearly visible electric or mechanical signal device warns of the approach of a train; [2015, c. 89, §1 (NEW).]
B. A crossing gate is lowered or a flagger gives or continues to give a signal or warning of the approach or passage of a train; [2015, c. 89, §1 (NEW).]
C. A train is visible and is in hazardous proximity to the crossing; or [2015, c. 89, §1 (NEW).]
D. A sign, device or law requires the vehicle to stop. [2015, c. 89, §1 (NEW).]

A vehicle may proceed across the track when the gates have been raised, the flagger indicates that no train is approaching or, if there is an electric or mechanical signal device, the operator has ascertained that no train is approaching. An operator proceeding by an electric or mechanical signal device shall use extra caution.

The commissioner of transportation is hereby authorised to designate particularly dangerous highway grade crossings of railroads and to order stop signs erected at such crossings. It shall be the duty of the commissioner to erect such stop signs at such designated crossings where said highways are under his jurisdiction. Local communities shall when ordered by commissioner erect such stop signs on highways within their jurisdiction. When such stop signs are erected the driver of any vehicle shall stop within 50 feet but not less than 15 feet from the nearest rail of such railroad and shall proceed only upon exercising due care.

By "stop signs" in NH's law, that is also implying flashing red lights and gates, correct? I don't see anything in this NH law mentioning anything with gates, although RSA 265:12 does mention it in part II.

[doogie1303]

So they just erected one of these HAWK signals for a bike path crossing just outside the URI campus on route 138 in Kingston, RI. Hate to say it but us Rhode Islanders are slow to understand these new MUTCD signal standards (we only got our first FYA in Coventry a few years ago and I haven't seen many others erected). There is probably going to be a lot of confused people when this signal starts getting used.

[jakeroot]

So they just erected one of these HAWK signals for a bike path crossing just outside the URI campus on route 138 in Kingston, RI. Hate to say it but us Rhode Islanders are slow to understand these new MUTCD signal standards (we only got our first FYA in Coventry a few years ago and I haven't seen many others erected). There is probably going to be a lot of confused people when this signal starts getting used.

Tis the fate of too many HAWK signals. I have no solid evidence, but anecdotal evidence doesn't seem to weigh heavily in their favour -- people just don't seem to get their nuances.

[fwydriver405]

So they just erected one of these HAWK signals for a bike path crossing just outside the URI campus on route 138 in Kingston, RI. Hate to say it but us Rhode Islanders are slow to understand these new MUTCD signal standards (we only got our first FYA in Coventry a few years ago and I haven't seen many others erected). There is probably going to be a lot of confused people when this signal starts getting used.

On the same topic, a friend of mine told me that HAWK's (or PHB's is what NHDOT refers to them) were recently installed on Main St on the University of New Hampshire campus in Durham, New Hampshire. Since Main St was recently reconfigured, I'll have to see how drivers are reacting to the new signals, but based on previous NHDOT installs, many NH drivers are also slow to understand the new MUTCD signal standards...

Also, about 8 kilometres or 5 miles from campus near Exit 6 on the Spaulding Turnpike, the intersection of US 4 and Boston Harbor Rd was converted into a roundabout, which also meant the existing ped signals and crosswalk when the intersection was signalised was converted to HAWK. That crosswalk is literally <50 m (55 yds) from the entry/exit of the roundabout and I've seen many people blow the solid and flashing red without even slowing down, especially from drivers exiting the roundabout.

Any statistics on the compliance rate and crash data of HAWK's (or any crosswalks) at roundabouts? Always thought that crosswalks near the entry and exit of roundabouts were a recipe for disaster...

Here's an image of the US-4 and Boston Harbor Rd roundabout if you're curious, 29 September 2019:

[kphoger]

Just the other day, I drove by a baseball game and encountered a HAWK signal in use in both directions.  I've hardly ever seen one in use before.  Some thoughts:

1.  Not being super familiar with HAWK phasing, I slowed down on flashing yellow because I expected it to turn red next.  Do we really need a solid yellow phase in between?

2.  If you're stopped at the solid red phase and then it turns to flashing red, you can proceed if it's clear.  But what if you approach the crosswalk on flashing red phase and no one is crossing?  Do you still have to stop?  I think the legal answer is yes, but signage that says "Proceed on flashing red when clear" leaves that rather ambiguous.

[hotdogPi]

Just the other day, I drove by a baseball game and encountered a HAWK signal in use in both directions.  I've hardly ever seen one in use before.  Some thoughts:

1.  Not being super familiar with HAWK phasing, I slowed down on flashing yellow because I expected it to turn red next.  Do we really need a solid yellow phase in between?

2.  If you're stopped at the solid red phase and then it turns to flashing red, you can proceed if it's clear.  But what if you approach the crosswalk on flashing red phase and no one is crossing?  Do you still have to stop?  I think the legal answer is yes, but signage that says "Proceed on flashing red when clear" leaves that rather ambiguous.

HAWKs are no different from other signals as to what the phases mean (except that dark signals are to be ignored entirely, since there's no conflict like there is at a normal signal).

As for #1, a solid red cannot be preceded by a flashing yellow; this is true whether it's a normal cycle, a RYG pedestrian signal, a time-of-day change, or a HAWK signal.

As for #2, a flashing red is a flashing red.

[jakeroot]

I think the supplemental sign should say "proceed on flashing red after stop", with interpretation as to why you are stopping being left to drivers.

[mrsman]

A sad story involving HAWK signals that occurred in North Bethesda, MD.

Tuckerman Lane is a busy east-west street with two lanes in each direction.  The Bethesda Trolley Trail is a hiking/bike path that is off-road (and has a bridge over the Beltway), but intersects with Tuckerman Lane at a non-signalized intersection.

Here is the location:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.029788,-77.1123116,3a,75y,277.94h,84.54t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sPIYmr8pR-u7eHk8f3WT3rg!2e0!5s20210601T000000!7i16384!8i8192

As one can see based on past GSV images, early on, it was just simply a marked crosswalk.  Some time before 2008, the county put in place a cement median to make it easier for trail users (and perhaps for bus passengers as well as there is a nearby bus stop) to cross Tuckerman.

2008 GSV shows an improved crossing with a cement median that is about the width of one traffic lane:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.029733,-77.1123435,3a,75y,294.94h,73.57t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQ36vbNHpOjYG8EUn4JJtcQ!2e0!5s20081001T000000!7i3328!8i1664

Fast forward to 2017 and you see that the crossing was improved with the installation of a push-button that activates flashing yellow lights to warn about the crossing of people using the trail.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0298062,-77.1122954,3a,30y,292.08h,82.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIvdtX7aZCcf2JEXKarwN0Q!2e0!5s20170701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

In July 2019, a young woman was killed while crossing at this intersection.  A few months later, in the interests of pedestrian safety, the county installed a HAWK signal at this intersection in December 2019.

https://wjla.com/news/local/pedestrian-safety-in-bethesda-new-crosswalk-beacons-installed-near-site-of-deadly-crash?fbclid=IwAR2WQmXOCMxucQjR9AgFAJ-4e0RSDYM5YtcjSEK7akG3kybTK_-DmQlLzag

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.029788,-77.1123116,3a,75y,275.13h,86.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sPIYmr8pR-u7eHk8f3WT3rg!2e0!5s20210601T000000!7i16384!8i8192

A few days ago, another tragedy at this crossing, as a 74 year old jogger was killed crossing the street.  It is not clear as to whether the jogger activated the HAWK signal, but anecdotal reports from neighbors do indicate many close calls, even when the red lights are flashing.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/74-year-old-jogger-struck-killed-in-bethesda/3038747/

----

So what to make of all of this?  It seems that there is still significant driver confusion with regard to HAWK signals.  While there are many unfortunate pedestrian deaths at all types of intersections, I know that I would feel safer with a different type of pedestrian signal.  I mentioned a few times (probably on this thread and other places) that there are better signals than HAWK with regard to easing driver confusion.  Ideally, a regular RYG signal  that moves from solid red to flashing red to allow drivers to proceed (after stopping) after giving pedestrians absolute right of way for 10-15 seconds.*  The flashing red is designed to allow for traffic to proceed if pedestrians are no longer present (because they cross faster than the presumed 3.5 ft/sec), but is still otherwise part of the more familiar RYG signal, than the HAWK with its less-understood dark-flashing yellow-solid yellow-solid red-flashing red phasing.

* The closest that I have seen to what I describe exists at mid-block crossings in Downtown LA (and other parts of the city).  There, the phasing is green-yellow-flashing red.  I would add in a brief solid red to make sure that all cars stop and look around before proceeding.  Like in many HAWKs, it would seem that flashing red would work well during the pedestrian clearance interval (flashing don't walk) when many pedestrians who may have begun crossing at the moment the walk signal came on would likely no longer be in the intersection.  But the key is that the flashing yellow and dark phases of the HAWK are far less intuitive than a simple green light.  The green light gives drivers the right of way, but also indicate a light that could turn yellow or red, whereas there are so many flashing yellow s that are simply meaningless.

[Rothman]

In NYSDOT Region 3, HAWKs are now outright discouraged given other solutions (RRFBs and PELICANS (dumbest acronym ever)).

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

In NYSDOT Region 3, HAWKs are now outright discouraged given other solutions (RRFBs and PELICANS (dumbest acronym ever)).

It sounds like they actually have some sense.

An RRFB really isn't a replacement for a HAWK beacon. If it doesn't have a red light legally requiring vehicles to stop, it's not in the same category. If you've ever lived somewhere with an aggressive driving culture where vehicles simply do not yield to pedestrians, you understand why.

Old fashioned three-head signals are the solution and there's no reason the US should be so allergic to them.

[Dirt Roads]

In NYSDOT Region 3, HAWKs are now outright discouraged given other solutions (RRFBs and PELICANS (dumbest acronym ever)).

It sounds like they actually have some sense.

An RRFB really isn't a replacement for a HAWK beacon. If it doesn't have a red light legally requiring vehicles to stop, it's not in the same category. If you've ever lived somewhere with an aggressive driving culture where vehicles simply do not yield to pedestrians, you understand why.

Old fashioned three-head signals are the solution and there's no reason the US should be so allergic to them.

All of this brings up an interesting issue.  In Great Britain where the PELICON (a.k.a. Pelican Signal) originated, these signals are no longer permitted in new applications.  Instead, the newer "Puffin signal" places the pedestrian signal heads on the same side of the road as the request button.  My impression is that the "Puffin" solution reduces some of the issues related to the timing of pedestrian cycle (ergo, mobility-impaired pedestrians don't get part-way into the intersection before the time starts to count down).  I haven't seen this issue discussed anywhere in the United States.