Speed enforcement and tolerance

[Big John]

Rosendale WI is a notorious speed trap.  WisDOT now recommends taking I-41 to US 151 instead of WI 26 from Oshkosh to Waupun to bypass Rosendale.

[jakeroot]

I wasn't trying to say that small town speed traps don't exist at all. Just that they're not really that common. But also that around here, it's not really a thing. Small towns don't usually have their own police departments, much less a cop permanently posted at the city line.

Getting stopped for two over is insane. I would love to see that hold up in court.

[US 89]

Getting stopped for two over is insane. I would love to see that hold up in court.

I mean it's a waste of the police officer's time, but by exceeding the posted speed limit by any amount, you are technically breaking the law...

[Scott5114]

I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.

That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.

Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.

Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).

Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.

The common wisdom in Oklahoma is that the tolerance is 5 mph, and I think most of my instances of getting pulled over have been in the 5-to-10-mph-over range, so that tracks. I don't risk anything more than 5+ unless I'm just not paying attention.

FWIW, the only time I've ever been pulled over for less than 10 mph over the limit was on an Oklahoma turnpike, where they have tabs on the speed limit signs saying "strictly enforced".

It's "NO TOLERANCE", actually, and they've started showing up on ODOT highways too, now that we apparently aren't signing minimum speeds anymore.  I've always thought that was a silly plate because "SPEED LIMIT 70/NO TOLERANCE" kind of reads like they won't tolerate anyone doing the speed limit.

[jakeroot]

Getting stopped for two over is insane. I would love to see that hold up in court.

I mean it's a waste of the police officer's time, but by exceeding the posted speed limit by any amount, you are technically breaking the law...

I just don't think any radar gun is accurate enough for a cop to bother with someone for 2-3 over. Combine that with numerous other possible factors (tire conditions, age of vehicle, speedometer accuracy) and it seems like it would be easy enough to get tossed. At the very least, stricken from the record. Since those factors don't usually stand up for more than 4 or 5 over, it's harder to get away with speeding beyond that. But then, getting stopped for 5 over is still nuts as far as I'm concerned. Less than 6 to 8 over along most surface roads would be quite unusual in my area (only likely if you're doing something else, as I previously stated). And even then, 10-15 over (say 55 to 60 in a 45) would be tolerated as long as you were going with traffic.

I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.

That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.

Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.

Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).

Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.

To me, it's about not looking suspect. You know why they say not to buy a red car? Same reason you don't go exactly the speed limit: it's suspect in and of itself, even if it's not an actual reason you could get stopped. People don't drive exactly the limit. It's just not something we do. So as a cop, when you roll up on someone going exactly the limit, well you can't stop them, but maybe follow them for a bit to see what's up. After all, it's unusual behavior.

[Rothman]

The debate needs to be removed from this thread.  This thread is supposed to be posting photos and the like of signs.

[interstatefan990]

Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.

This is true. If you're stopped for even 1 over and a cop sees something illegal in your car, the evidence stands in court.



One thing I find funny is that a lot of people don't realize that a cop can detect your speed from an angle. They slow down as they approach the cop, thinking their radar only runs in a straight line across the freeway/road or something. But in reality, they probably already knew your original speed before you even noticed them.

[jakeroot]

Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.

This is true. If you're stopped for even 1 over and a cop sees something illegal in your car, the evidence stands in court.

Stands to reason that you could exceed the limit (to a point) without trouble if you're not doing something else illegal. That has been my experience in Washington: speed alone is not a reason to stop someone, unless they are going well beyond the posted limit and are going faster than the general speed of traffic.. So if you're not doing anything else to get stopped (using phone, left lane camping, expired tabs), cops likely won't bother you.

The debate needs to be removed from this thread.  This thread is supposed to be posting photos and the like of signs.

I would agree, but then it does relate to a post from a couple pages ago. So it's not completely off-topic.

[renegade]

Getting stopped for two over is insane. I would love to see that hold up in court.

It does.  All the time.

[ethanhopkin14]

I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.

That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.

Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.

Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).

You ever heard of revenue-hungry small towns? They will set up speed traps (like where the limit drops) and literally ticket you for 4-5 mph over. And you cannot convince me that a driver can go 9 over on any freeway and have a guarantee that they won't get pulled over. Not even close. That's 74 in a 65, or 84 in a 75, I've seen plenty of people get ticketed for those speeds or less.

What exactly are you saying?  That Jake is being dishonest about his own experience?  More likely is that he hasn't done a lot of driving in places that match your description.  I see your location is on the other side of the nation from his.  How much driving have you done outside your own area?

FWIW, the only time I've ever been pulled over for less than 10 mph over the limit was on an Oklahoma turnpike, where they have tabs on the speed limit signs saying "strictly enforced".  And that includes doing going by cops at 74 in 65 zones (Interstates all over Illinois before the limit was raised).

I'm not delegitimizing or denying his experience at all. I'm simply saying that there are different realities, so his isn't all-encompassing (which is true for any of our experiences). I have done plenty of driving outside of my area, I've been in more than 3/4 of the states including yours. However, the only time I've been in Washington was in the back of a taxi on I-405. The driver stayed at around 64 MPH the entire time with the 60 MPH limit, and we only got passed every minute or so. There wasn't even that many police cars along the way either. I have never been pulled over in all of my driving, and I mainly attribute that to always trying my best to keep my speed within 5 over.

"Match your description"? What does that mean?

It all depends on where you are, of course.  Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might.  Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all.  There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected.  Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything.  So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30.  It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are. 

[kphoger]

I once overtook a police officer on a two-lane highway in southern Illinois while going 7 over the limit in a box truck.  He didn't care.

I once had a police officer rev his engine and point to his radar gun while I was inching by him at 1 mph over the limit on a divided highway just west of Tulsa.

[Scott5114]

To me, it's about not looking suspect. You know why they say not to buy a red car? Same reason you don't go exactly the speed limit: it's suspect in and of itself, even if it's not an actual reason you could get stopped. People don't drive exactly the limit. It's just not something we do. So as a cop, when you roll up on someone going exactly the limit, well you can't stop them, but maybe follow them for a bit to see what's up. After all, it's unusual behavior.

Again, though, why do I care about looking suspect if the thing that is making me suspect is compliant with the law? I really don't care what cops think of me if they don't have any means of doing anything about it.

I always figured if they ran my radar and I was doing 70 (or whatever) on the dot, rather than finding it suspicious, they would just sigh and go "damn it, they saw me" and hope to catch the next driver unawares.

One thing I find funny is that a lot of people don't realize that a cop can detect your speed from an angle. They slow down as they approach the cop, thinking their radar only runs in a straight line across the freeway/road or something. But in reality, they probably already knew your original speed before you even noticed them.

I think the reason why people slow down is hoping that the cop hasn't turned on the radar gun yet/isn't looking at the readout/they haven't entered the detection zone/been "focused on" yet. I'm not entirely sure how radar guns work but I think it's reasonable to assume they can't give the speed of every car going by at all times.

[JoePCool14]

Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.

This is true. If you're stopped for even 1 over and a cop sees something illegal in your car, the evidence stands in court.

Stands to reason that you could exceed the limit (to a point) without trouble if you're not doing something else illegal. That has been my experience in Washington: speed alone is not a reason to stop someone, unless they are going well beyond the posted limit and are going faster than the general speed of traffic.. So if you're not doing anything else to get stopped (using phone, left lane camping, expired tabs), cops likely won't bother you.

The debate needs to be removed from this thread.  This thread is supposed to be posting photos and the like of signs.

I would agree, but then it does relate to a post from a couple pages ago. So it's not completely off-topic.

No, I think at this point it's completely off topic and I think it should be split off.

[jakeroot]

To me, it's about not looking suspect. You know why they say not to buy a red car? Same reason you don't go exactly the speed limit: it's suspect in and of itself, even if it's not an actual reason you could get stopped. People don't drive exactly the limit. It's just not something we do. So as a cop, when you roll up on someone going exactly the limit, well you can't stop them, but maybe follow them for a bit to see what's up. After all, it's unusual behavior.

Again, though, why do I care about looking suspect if the thing that is making me suspect is compliant with the law? I really don't care what cops think of me if they don't have any means of doing anything about it.

I always figured if they ran my radar and I was doing 70 (or whatever) on the dot, rather than finding it suspicious, they would just sigh and go "damn it, they saw me" and hope to catch the next driver unawares.

But you do care:

To be honest, probably the most fear-inducing experience you can have as a driver is being tailgated by a cop.

You've got that right.

I've never had a cop "tail" me before, unless it was just them commuting with the rest of us. And I certainly wouldn't be scared about it if I wasn't doing anything that I thought would get me pulled over. I suppose they could stop me for speeding, assuming I was exceeding the limit, but from my experience that doesn't happen.

Now, I do recognize that huge swaths of this country are inhabited by Barney Fifes looking to make a quick buck. So no, I'm not going to strut through some tiny town at 10 over the limit and not expect to at least get stopped. But day to day, the Seattle metro area is not the kind of place where you would get stopped just for exceeding the limit.

[Rothman]

We need to separate the chit chat into a separate thread from the photos.

[jakeroot]

We need to separate the chit chat into a separate thread from the photos.

This is "General Highway Talk", not "Photos, Videos, and More".

We could move it but it would get locked immediately. Better for everyone if we all just agreed to disagree, frankly.

[vdeane]

It all depends on where you are, of course.  Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might.  Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all.  There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected.  Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything.  So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30.  It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are. 

And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture.  I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.

[Roadgeekteen]

In Massachusetts, it seems like you get about a 15 mph cushion on freeways unless a cop is having a bad day. I could be wrong, however.

[Scott5114]

It all depends on where you are, of course.  Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might.  Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all.  There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected.  Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything.  So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30.  It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are. 

And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture.  I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.

The problem is that you want to have some tolerance, because vehicle speedometers wear out and get miscalibrated, and so do radar guns. Even if both were perfect, going over the limit by a few mph is such a minor infraction it feels cheap to enforce it. It's easy for speed to vary by one or two mph just because you're going down a hill.

It then turns into a camel's-nose sort of problem.

[Roadgeekteen]

It all depends on where you are, of course.  Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might.  Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all.  There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected.  Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything.  So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30.  It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are. 

And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture.  I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.

In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.

[interstatefan990]

It all depends on where you are, of course.  Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might.  Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all.  There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected.  Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything.  So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30.  It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are. 

And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture.  I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.

In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.

The problem is that in many states, a ticket for speeding 1 over is the same class of traffic infraction (same fines, points, etc) as speeding 10 over.  For example, here in NY, the least serious speeding ticket you can get is a "1-10 MPH over" ticket. Then it's 11-20, 21-30, and so on. I think states should set aside a category of speeding tickets specifically for offenses of 5 MPH over or less. The penalty could be just a fine and no points or convictions on your record. This would allow someone to speed a little to keep up with the flow of traffic without having to fear a ticket as much.

[allniter89]

I heard somewhere that rain messes with radar b/c it measures the speed of the rain instead of the ve hickle.

[Roadgeekteen]

It all depends on where you are, of course.  Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might.  Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all.  There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected.  Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything.  So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30.  It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are. 

And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture.  I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.

In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.

The problem is that in many states, a ticket for speeding 1 over is the same class of traffic infraction (same fines, points, etc) as speeding 10 over.  For example, here in NY, the least serious speeding ticket you can get is a "1-10 MPH over" ticket. Then it's 11-20, 21-30, and so on. I think states should set aside a category of speeding tickets specifically for offenses of 5 MPH over or less. The penalty could be just a fine and no points or convictions on your record. This would allow someone to speed a little to keep up with the flow of traffic without having to fear a ticket as much.

I would still have a margin or error with the speed limit. Something like 2-3 mph.

[interstatefan990]

It all depends on where you are, of course.  Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might.  Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all.  There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected.  Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything.  So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30.  It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are. 

And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture.  I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.

In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.

The problem is that in many states, a ticket for speeding 1 over is the same class of traffic infraction (same fines, points, etc) as speeding 10 over.  For example, here in NY, the least serious speeding ticket you can get is a "1-10 MPH over" ticket. Then it's 11-20, 21-30, and so on. I think states should set aside a category of speeding tickets specifically for offenses of 5 MPH over or less. The penalty could be just a fine and no points or convictions on your record. This would allow someone to speed a little to keep up with the flow of traffic without having to fear a ticket as much.

I would still have a margin or error with the speed limit. Something like 2-3 mph.

Well then I guess that would mean up to an 8 mph tolerance before a serious speeding ticket. Like 73 in a 65, radar tolerance reduces presumed speed to 70, which is 5 over and only gets the "5 or less" offense. Kinda defeats the purpose but there's really nothing we can do about the conflict between radar accuracy and the law's requirement for evidence to be precise.

[Roadgeekteen]

It all depends on where you are, of course.  Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might.  Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all.  There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected.  Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything.  So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30.  It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are. 

And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture.  I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.

In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.

The problem is that in many states, a ticket for speeding 1 over is the same class of traffic infraction (same fines, points, etc) as speeding 10 over.  For example, here in NY, the least serious speeding ticket you can get is a "1-10 MPH over" ticket. Then it's 11-20, 21-30, and so on. I think states should set aside a category of speeding tickets specifically for offenses of 5 MPH over or less. The penalty could be just a fine and no points or convictions on your record. This would allow someone to speed a little to keep up with the flow of traffic without having to fear a ticket as much.

I would still have a margin or error with the speed limit. Something like 2-3 mph.

Well then I guess that would mean up to an 8 mph tolerance before a serious speeding ticket. Like 73 in a 65, radar tolerance reduces presumed speed to 70, which is 5 over and only gets the "5 or less" offense. Kinda defeats the purpose but there's really nothing we can do about the conflict between radar accuracy and the law's requirement for evidence to be precise.

Uh yeah. How accurate are radars exactly?