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Author Topic: Proposed US 412 Upgrade  (Read 8206 times)

Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #125 on: June 04, 2021, 01:45:54 PM »

If it bothered them too much, they could always request a transfer to a different troop. OHP Troop YA patrols the Cimarron Turnpike and nothing else. (Each Oklahoma turnpike has a dedicated OHP troop.)
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sprjus4

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #126 on: June 04, 2021, 01:46:22 PM »

I am sure some OHP Troopers didn't like the grass median pave over for ticket writing purposes.
So are you suggesting the raised grass medians with no left shoulder were safer on 75 mph highways as opposed to a paved left shoulder and a high tension cable barrier?
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kphoger

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #127 on: June 04, 2021, 01:59:31 PM »

I am sure some OHP Troopers didn't like the grass median pave over for ticket writing purposes. 

I've personally had a OHP Trooper flip a U-turn across the grassy median hump of US-412 (west of US-177 before the cable barrier was installed) and give me a warning for speeding.  I think I was only doing like 81 in a 75.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #128 on: June 04, 2021, 02:41:28 PM »

I am sure some OHP Troopers didn't like the grass median pave over for ticket writing purposes.
So are you suggesting the raised grass medians with no left shoulder were safer on 75 mph highways as opposed to a paved left shoulder and a high tension cable barrier?

I am not saying anything.  I was just theorizing that a Trooper or two may have had a honey hole.  I wasn't speaking to the safety past or present.
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kphoger

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #129 on: June 04, 2021, 02:50:37 PM »

Passing a trucker, after dark, with a grassy mound immediately left of the edge line, at 75-80 mph...  Yeah, I never really felt very safe doing that.

Fast-forward a few years, and now I find myself occasionally driving in Mexico on a four-lane divided highway with a dropoff immediately right of the edge line—being passed by turnpike doubles at 65-70 mph.  I mean, I guess I'd take the grassy mound over the dropoff, but I wouldn't call either one "safe".
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sparker

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #130 on: June 04, 2021, 03:34:52 PM »

I am sure some OHP Troopers didn't like the grass median pave over for ticket writing purposes.
So are you suggesting the raised grass medians with no left shoulder were safer on 75 mph highways as opposed to a paved left shoulder and a high tension cable barrier?

I am not saying anything.  I was just theorizing that a Trooper or two may have had a honey hole.  I wasn't speaking to the safety past or present.

"Honey hole"  -- that's the first time I've heard that term; I suppose it would also apply to those cross-median accessways labeled "For Official Use Only" in some states.   But I'm sure the old OTA maintenance crews really loved having to deal with trooper tire tracks marring their nicely-kept grass medians!
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In_Correct

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #131 on: June 05, 2021, 02:20:20 AM »

I am confused. Are the Officers able to use the gaps in the Jersey Barriers to be able to turn around?

Or they can simply contact an Officer going in the opposite direction?
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #132 on: June 05, 2021, 04:12:07 AM »

I am confused. Are the Officers able to use the gaps in the Jersey Barriers to be able to turn around?

That's the whole reason they put the gaps there. Occasionally a fire truck or ambulance will make use of one, but it's mostly cops.
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rte66man

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #133 on: June 06, 2021, 02:41:17 PM »

Interesting......

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2021/june/june-transportation-commission-video-teleconference-meeting-sche.html

Quote
Friday, June 04, 2021
Media Advisory
June 3, 2021

The Oklahoma Transportation Commission’s monthly meeting is scheduled to take place as a video teleconference at 11 a.m. Monday, June 7. Members of the public and media will be able to access the web livestream video or listen by phone by following the instructions at the bottom of this release.

Items to be addressed at the meeting:
Secretary of Transportation and Oklahoma Department of Transportation Executive Director Tim Gatz will update commission members on transportation funding provisions in the state budget as well as ongoing congressional discussions about federal infrastructure funding and possible interstate designation for US-412.

I was unable to find any mention of this on the published agenda.
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bugo

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #134 on: June 07, 2021, 07:49:37 AM »

Yes, I generally don't list JB Hunt and I mention Tyson and University of Arkansas. U of A is not a part of the Oklahoma equation.

A lot of Tulsa kids go to Arkansas when they graduate high school. Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is. There is also some game day traffic between the two cities, because there are lots of Razorback fans in Oklahoma.
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rte66man

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #135 on: June 07, 2021, 07:54:04 AM »

Yes, I generally don't list JB Hunt and I mention Tyson and University of Arkansas. U of A is not a part of the Oklahoma equation.

A lot of Tulsa kids go to Arkansas when they graduate high school. Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is. There is also some game day traffic between the two cities, because there are lots of Razorback fans in Oklahoma.

+1.

You didn't mention the AQ Chicken House in Springdale . First place I ever ate battered french fries.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #136 on: June 07, 2021, 04:21:32 PM »

Quote from: Scott5114
The narrow grass medians originally built on the Cimarron Turnpike and other turnpikes of that vintage were completely ineffective at preventing cross-over accidents. See GSV, be sure to set history to the 2008 or 2009 captures to view the old median, then compare to present day. The cable barriers are sufficient to stop a lot of crossovers, but when struck require a crew to come out and reset/replace the pylons and retension the cables to restore them to full effectiveness. A Jersey barrier is more expensive but lower maintenance.

Back in the early 1990's there was a horrible head-on collision on I-44 near Elgin, OK that killed several people. This was due in part to the narrow grassy median about the width of a vehicle lane. The left lanes on I-44 had no interior left shoulders either. Drivers in the left lane had to be careful; any drifting around in the lane could have wheels hitting the grass at the edge of the lane at high speed. An out of control vehicle could very easily go into the opposing lanes.

I don't know if the incident near Elgin had any effect on plans, but it wasn't long after that tragedy that the concrete Jersey barrier was erected on the I-44 turnpikes from the Medicine Park exit up to the Missouri State line.

Strangely, many years passed before OTA did anything about I-44 South of Lawton. A few years ago they finally removed the stupidly dangerous narrow grassy median. They replaced that grassy strip with concrete slab and put a cable barrier in the middle of it. OTA did that because it cost half the price of a concrete Jersey barrier. I have heard some arguments that suggest a cable barrier is safer than a concrete Jersey barrier because it does more to slow and stop vehicles. An out of control vehicle will just bounce off a concrete Jersey barrier.

Most of the Cimarron Turnpike has been upgraded in a similar manner: grassy strip replaced with concrete and a cable barrier. But I think there are still a couple stretches of the turnpike that still have the old grassy medians. I think the spur going to Stillwater still has a narrow grassy median.

Quote from: Scott5114
The only upgrades I could see taking place to the current turnpikes would be minor safety improvements, like upgraded median barriers, and perhaps some bridge replacements, on the Cimarron Turnpike.

OTA also needs to do something about those old toll plazas. They'll have to do something about that anyway, given the plans to go to all-electronic tolling. Those old toll plazas are a serious bottleneck. Some are in pretty bad condition. The Walters toll booth on I-44 South of Lawton is a good example. I get nervous driving on the bridge over the top of the old toll booth due to the very poor condition of the road deck. There have been plans to re-build that plaza on the books for years, but the project just keeps getting delayed over and over.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 05:42:44 PM by Bobby5280 »
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #137 on: June 10, 2021, 09:53:47 AM »

I have had the unfortunate instances of witnessing a vehicle lose control and ram a jersey barrier.  The barrier slung the vehicle around and the driver did not make it.
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sprjus4

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #138 on: June 10, 2021, 11:07:44 AM »

I have had the unfortunate instances of witnessing a vehicle lose control and ram a jersey barrier.  The barrier slung the vehicle around and the driver did not make it.
You’re suggesting a raised median would be safer? Where the vehicle would cross over the median into the opposing lane, crashing head on with oncoming traffic, killing both the driver at-fault and some innocent driver, as opposed to just the driver at-fault? Any loss of life is tragic, however if it has to happen, rather it be one vehicle vs. two, one of which completely without any fault.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #139 on: June 10, 2021, 04:11:14 PM »

I have had the unfortunate instances of witnessing a vehicle lose control and ram a jersey barrier.  The barrier slung the vehicle around and the driver did not make it.
You’re suggesting a raised median would be safer? Where the vehicle would cross over the median into the opposing lane, crashing head on with oncoming traffic, killing both the driver at-fault and some innocent driver, as opposed to just the driver at-fault? Any loss of life is tragic, however if it has to happen, rather it be one vehicle vs. two, one of which completely without any fault.

No unfortunately I have been a witness to numerous traffic collisions both of a serious injury and fatality over the years.  I'll defer the median control systems to an engineer.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 04:20:02 PM by Avalanchez71 »
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sparker

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #140 on: June 10, 2021, 04:16:02 PM »

I have had the unfortunate instances of witnessing a vehicle lose control and ram a jersey barrier.  The barrier slung the vehicle around and the driver did not make it.
You’re suggesting a raised median would be safer? Where the vehicle would cross over the median into the opposing lane, crashing head on with oncoming traffic, killing both the driver at-fault and some innocent driver, as opposed to just the driver at-fault? Any loss of life is tragic, however if it has to happen, rather it be one vehicle vs. two, one of which completely without any fault.

The very design of a K-rail, with its concave vertical fascia, is intended to in essence "flip" any vehicle striking it and running up its surface back onto its own side of the barrier; that is specifically supposed to minimize the chances of said vehicle crossing to the other side of the barrier.  Critics of this design have suggested that this sort of "flip" greatly increases the chances of multi-car pileups in the original direction of travel, whereas a tall straight-sided barrier would be more likely to result in the problem vehicle staying at least partially in the inside shoulder area.  Both are designed to deflect rather than absorb vehicle inertia; other methods like dual or thrie-beam installations or even cable are considerably more absorptive while keeping as much "action" on the direction-of-travel side of the road as possible.  As an aside, the old CA DOH thought that densely-planed oleander bushes (selected for their very low watering needs) made for a reasonably effective freeway median barrier, using the bush structure as a buffer.  Most of the existing examples of these, many along CA 99 in the San Joaquin Valley, have been augmented by cable or thrie-beams flanking the trunks of the bushes; this was done after several instances of large trucks crossing the median and causing major -- and often fatal -- incidents.   
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bugo

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #141 on: June 10, 2021, 08:54:29 PM »

Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.
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kphoger

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #142 on: June 11, 2021, 01:12:32 PM »

Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.

Don't worry, we didn't forget.

Appears to be one at-grade just before the Arkansas River, otherwise the whole segment between Tulsa and I-35 is freeway standards. That one at-grade is close to an interchange and could be linked to it via a frontage road to eliminate the immediate freeway access.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #143 on: June 11, 2021, 01:18:40 PM »

Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.

A full blown interchange isn't always warranted.  Can't they build a superstreet, a diverging diamond, a stagnated turn, Michigan Left, New Jersey Left, or a roundabout?
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sprjus4

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #144 on: June 11, 2021, 01:30:02 PM »

Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.

A full blown interchange isn't always warranted.  Can't they build a superstreet, a diverging diamond, a stagnated turn, Michigan Left, New Jersey Left, or a roundabout?
I’d argue regardless of the interstate designation, this particular intersection should be closed… it’s the only at-grade separation on what is otherwise an uninterrupted freeway route between Tulsa and I-35. A simple frontage road connecting to the SR-151 interchange would suffice.

It doesn’t meet driver expectations and presents a danger with low speed traffic entering high-speed freeway lanes on what is a limited access highway.

Why would they waste money converting the intersection into an “innovated” design as opposed to simply building a connecting frontage road and associated improvements to the SH-151 interchange to accommodate it? Especially given its on a limited access highway. The goal should to remove it, not keep it. It’s not like they have to build a new interchange or overpass.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 01:32:54 PM by sprjus4 »
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #145 on: June 11, 2021, 01:36:28 PM »

Don't forget that there's an at-grade intersection on US 64 just west of the OK 151 interchange. An access road could be built that would connect to 151 and the at-grade could be removed, but I don't see anything happening to it in the near future.

A full blown interchange isn't always warranted.  Can't they build a superstreet, a diverging diamond, a stagnated turn, Michigan Left, New Jersey Left, or a roundabout?

How the heck did you get that bugo was advocating for an interchange at Diamond Head Drive out of his post? He mentioned building a frontage road down to 151, which would probably be way cheaper and safer than any of the things you listed (of which a diverging diamond is a full-blown interchange, and I have no idea what a "stagnated turn" is, though it sounds like it probably attracts mosquitoes).
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #146 on: June 11, 2021, 04:14:44 PM »

If Diamond Head Dr. were to be extended to OK 151, it should intersect 151 at the W. Wekiwa Rd. Of course, with the Two Rivers Trail in the way that might be a problem. Maybe more space for such an extension could be made if the OK 151 were downgraded from a free-flow trumpet interchange into a non-free-flow diamond (or some other smaller configuration) interchange.
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kphoger

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #147 on: June 11, 2021, 04:33:37 PM »

If Diamond Head Dr. were to be extended to OK 151, it should intersect 151 at the W. Wekiwa Rd. Of course, with the Two Rivers Trail in the way that might be a problem. Maybe more space for such an extension could be made if the OK 151 were downgraded from a free-flow trumpet interchange into a non-free-flow diamond (or some other smaller configuration) interchange.

It could just parallel US-412 and OK-151 down to that point, with a sharp curve at the trailhead to form a four-way intersection with 151.
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sparker

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #148 on: June 11, 2021, 04:52:15 PM »

If Diamond Head Dr. were to be extended to OK 151, it should intersect 151 at the W. Wekiwa Rd. Of course, with the Two Rivers Trail in the way that might be a problem. Maybe more space for such an extension could be made if the OK 151 were downgraded from a free-flow trumpet interchange into a non-free-flow diamond (or some other smaller configuration) interchange.

It could just parallel US-412 and OK-151 down to that point, with a sharp curve at the trailhead to form a four-way intersection with 151.

Driven through there several times and noted the at-grade intersection; extending any of the streets in that small subdivision over to OK 151 shouldn't be a prohibitive issue.  But that issue shouldn't have any bearing on the designation of US 412 as a future Interstate; it would, of course, need to be corrected prior to actual signage which would likely be at least a decade away.  That would be plenty of time for such a revision to be designed and constructed.
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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #149 on: June 16, 2021, 03:07:20 PM »

I'd actually put my two taxable cents in for not pussyfooting around and using I-50 for the designation here.  Not just to use up that I-x0, but because at that time the Muskogee Turnpike could conceivably receive a 3di based on that designation: I-350, just about as close as one can get to the current AR 351 designation (not that anyone in OK outside ODOT and we roadgeeks likely gives a rat's ass about that turnpike number!) so as not to cause too many fits within ODOT!   

Agreed, sparker. And the spur to Cimarron could be I-150.

And ... could this mean US 412 itself could go away between I-35 and I-49 and be replaced with I-50? There are many overlaps along its route west of I-35, and it seems like shifting US 412 to surface routes parallel to the new Interstate would just increase its shared alignments with other routes. Maybe ... but probably not, at least for the short term assuming this proposal comes to fruition.

As far as truncating US 412 is concerned, it's likely that whoever the parties are that proposed and implemented the western extension through the Panhandle and on to I-25 would have a shit fit about removing the designation & signage; obviously they thought that a single designation across that part of OK and into NM was necessary for someone's purposes of navigation.  Snarky idea that blurs the Fictional line here:  If the Raton-Dumas branch of the P2P is ever approved as an Interstate corridor, designate it as the same number (I-50?) as the corridor under discussion here -- and dare the powers that be to connect them!  They're more or less (with a little tweaking in the TX panhandle) on the same latitude.  Hardly needed to address any major through traffic issues in that neck of the woods -- but that hasn't always stopped corridor designation before -- particularly in regards to congressional districts through which it would run!  At least it would be a fun (and funky) way to get from NWA to the Front Range!

I-50 would make sense as the only other E/W route in the vicinity that would be somewhat grid-compliant would be US-60 for an I-50.  And US-54/US-400 would tend to lend itself to an eventual I-60 as US-50 is too near I-70 for a couple of states in the middle of the country.  It's my belief that they came up with the whole US-4** scheme to mess with the OCD types enough to force a consideration of replacement with an eventual Interstate designation on all of the routes in question as they tend to be in consistent latitudes or radials between capital cities.
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