Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[abqtraveler]

The way I see it, they may have no choice but to accept I-42, since most of it will be south of I-44, and thus the only number that fits the grid. Then it'll be the first time that the same future 2di is designated on two noncontiguous sections at the same time, with one in NC and the other in OK and AR.

Not necessarily. It's important to note that I-44 is the oddball here, given that it runs on the diagonal path from Wichita Falls, TX (well south of I-40) northeast to St. Louis, MO (at I-70, and north of I-64). So they could theoretically pick any available number from 42 to 52 and be fine (there are already US routes 54, 56, 60, and 62 in Oklahoma).

[The Ghostbuster]

This comment isn't about the roadway, but about the subject's headline: Why is there always a space between the number 412 and the word Upgrade? Every time I add a response to this subject, I have to eliminate the space between the number 412 and the word Upgrade. Is there any way to fix this so I (and others) can respond without having to delete an unnecessary space between the number and the last word in the subject headline?

[hotdogPi]

On my browser, the two spaces in a row appears as a single space and is indistinguishable from a single space.

[abqtraveler]

The way I see it, they may have no choice but to accept I-42, since most of it will be south of I-44, and thus the only number that fits the grid. Then it'll be the first time that the same future 2di is designated on two noncontiguous sections at the same time, with one in NC and the other in OK and AR.

Not necessarily. It's important to note that I-44 is the oddball here, given that it runs on the diagonal path from Wichita Falls, TX (well south of I-40) northeast to St. Louis, MO (at I-70, and north of I-64). So they could theoretically pick any available number from 42 to 52 (except 44) and be fine (there are already US routes 54, 56, 60, and 62 in Oklahoma).

[sprjus4]

https://transportation.org/route/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/12/Final_Report_USRN_Fall_2023_R_1.pdf

It appears Oklahoma and Arkansas have withdrawn their application?

[Bobby5280]

I guess it looks that way. NC might have I-42 all to itself after all.

Most of the Cimarron could be signed now. As well as the section from OK-97 in Sand Springs to the I-44 split in Catoosa and the entire Cherokee turnpike. Altogether almost 100 miles can be signed immediately.

The Cimarron Turnpike is almost ready to be signed as an Interstate. I think those last bits of narrow grassy median need to be replaced with concrete and cable barriers to reach current standards. Since one end of the turnpike touches an Interstate (I-35) it should qualify for Interstate signing.

US-412 from the end of the Cimarron Turnpike to the IDL in Tulsa has a lot of sub-standard shoulders, some very sub-standard ramps and one at-grade intersection just East of the Arkansas River crossing. All that stuff has to be fixed to meet current Interstate standards.

I wouldn't see any benefit of installing new Interstate route signs within Tulsa until that Sand Springs-Catoosa segment can connect with other signed segments of that possible future route.

The 26 or so miles of US-412 from Catoosa to Choteau (where the Cherokee Turnpike begins) looks easy enough to upgrade via not needing much, if any, new ROW. But it's still 26+ miles of 4-lane divided highway where intersections have to be converted to limited access exits, bridged over/under or cut off. I can imagine ODOT taking a long time to get that work done.

[Plutonic Panda]

Come on I-50! I-50!

[abqtraveler]

I guess it looks that way. NC might have I-42 all to itself after all.

Most of the Cimarron could be signed now. As well as the section from OK-97 in Sand Springs to the I-44 split in Catoosa and the entire Cherokee turnpike. Altogether almost 100 miles can be signed immediately.

The Cimarron Turnpike is almost ready to be signed as an Interstate. I think those last bits of narrow grassy median need to be replaced with concrete and cable barriers to reach current standards. Since one end of the turnpike touches an Interstate (I-35) it should qualify for Interstate signing.

US-412 from the end of the Cimarron Turnpike to the IDL in Tulsa has a lot of sub-standard shoulders, some very sub-standard ramps and one at-grade intersection just East of the Arkansas River crossing. All that stuff has to be fixed to meet current Interstate standards.

I wouldn't see any benefit of installing new Interstate route signs within Tulsa until that Sand Springs-Catoosa segment can connect with other signed segments of that possible future route.

The 26 or so miles of US-412 from Catoosa to Choteau (where the Cherokee Turnpike begins) looks easy enough to upgrade via not needing much, if any, new ROW. But it's still 26+ miles of 4-lane divided highway where intersections have to be converted to limited access exits, bridged over/under or cut off. I can imagine ODOT taking a long time to get that work done.

I wouldn't be surprised if Oklahoma somehow get the OTC to finance interstate upgrades to the non-tolled sections of 412. Guess it depends on how bad they want to get it done.

[Scott5114]

This comment isn't about the roadway, but about the subject's headline: Why is there always a space between the number 412 and the word Upgrade? Every time I add a response to this subject, I have to eliminate the space between the number 412 and the word Upgrade. Is there any way to fix this so I (and others) can respond without having to delete an unnecessary space between the number and the last word in the subject headline?

Because that's how David typed it when he started the thread. I could edit it, but the thought of editing a late member's post for such a trivial reason feels wrong somehow.

I give you permission to just leave the space in there. My font is such that I didn't even notice there are two spaces there until you said something.

[ilpt4u]

Come on I-50! I-50!

I'm rooting for I-38 to finally exist, personally, and while this isn't the perfect spot, its good enough

[bugo]

I wouldn't be surprised if Oklahoma somehow get the OTC to finance interstate upgrades to the non-tolled sections of 412. Guess it depends on how bad they want to get it done.

OTA doesn't finance ODOT's roads.

[Scott5114]

I wouldn't be surprised if Oklahoma somehow get the OTC to finance interstate upgrades to the non-tolled sections of 412. Guess it depends on how bad they want to get it done.

OTA doesn't finance ODOT's roads.

Well, he said OTC, which is the Oklahoma Tax Commission, which does finance ODOT's roads, but I don't think that's what he meant.

But yes, OTA does its financing through bonds, which it then pays back with toll revenue. ODOT is legally barred from issuing bonds, so if OTA bond money funds an ODOT project, that's a paddlin'.

[jdingus]

I guess I-42 got pulled. I-344 and I-335 got approved.

https://transportation.org/route/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/12/Final_Report_USRN_Fall_2023_R_1.pdf


When does the FHWA meet?

[bugo]

So let me get this straight: There's a toll road called OK 344 in Tulsa, and an I-344 in Oklahoma City, less than 90 miles from each other. Both off I-44. Do ODOT and the OTA not even pay attention to their own state highway numberings?

[The Ghostbuster]

Does this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240? I support making the Kickapoo Turnpike Interstate 335 on one condition: the existing exit numbers should be renumbered to reflect the mileage of the Kickapoo's Turnpike's proposed southern extension.

[abqtraveler]

Does this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240? I support making the Kickapoo Turnpike Interstate 335 on one condition: the existing exit numbers should be renumbered to reflect the mileage of the Kickapoo's Turnpike's proposed southern extension.

I don't know why they would designate the Kickapoo Turnpike as I-335 when it doesn't even connect to I-35. It should be either an I-x40 or I-x44, given that its opposite termini are at I-40 and I-44.

[Scott5114]

Do ODOT and the OTA not even pay attention to their own state highway numberings?

Look at OK-77S and OK-270 and tell me if that answers your question...

Does this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240? I support making the Kickapoo Turnpike Interstate 335 on one condition: the existing exit numbers should be renumbered to reflect the mileage of the Kickapoo's Turnpike's proposed southern extension.

I don't know why they would designate the Kickapoo Turnpike as I-335 when it doesn't even connect to I-35. It should be either an I-x40 or I-x44, given that its opposite termini are at I-40 and I-44.

The Kickapoo Turnpike is planned to be extended south to I-35 MP 96 just north of Purcell.

[Plutonic Panda]

The Kickapoo Turnpike is planned to be extended south to I-35 MP 96 just north of Purcell.

We need Bob Lumberg to haunt these people's dreams

[Bobby5280]

I kind of like the I-335 choice for the Kickapoo Turnpike. It psychologically forces the issue of the road needing to be extended down to I-35. I like the concept more than the idea of it being signed as I-240.

Does this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240?

I'm hoping it doesn't. This I-344 designation thing should overlap both the Kilpatrick Turnpike and the OK-152 Airport Road freeway the rest of the way to I-44.

I think they're still planning to extend I-240 along Airport Road and have it end oddly at the partial exit split with the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension. Yeah, I-240 will just come to a dead end at a surface street traffic signal. Currently both ends of I-240 terminate at Interstate highways. Although traffic going Eastbound through the OKC region would never know I-240 existed. I think any Western extension of I-240 should go up to I-40. It shouldn't just end at a surface street partial exit.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ has any agency been as finicky as ODOT? They can't decide on anything. First they propose that crazy ass I-240 beltway. Then they cancel that. Then they propose all these new interstate routes and cancel one of them.

What happened to the I-240 extension on SH-152? Why wasn't it on the agenda?

[vdeane]

I kind of like the I-335 choice for the Kickapoo Turnpike. It psychologically forces the issue of the road needing to be extended down to I-35. I like the concept more than the idea of it being signed as I-240.

Does this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240?

I'm hoping it doesn't. This I-344 designation thing should overlap both the Kilpatrick Turnpike and the OK-152 Airport Road freeway the rest of the way to I-44.

I think they're still planning to extend I-240 along Airport Road and have it end oddly at the partial exit split with the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension. Yeah, I-240 will just come to a dead end at a surface street traffic signal. Currently both ends of I-240 terminate at Interstate highways. Although traffic going Eastbound through the OKC region would never know I-240 existed. I think any Western extension of I-240 should go up to I-40. It shouldn't just end at a surface street partial exit.

Especially since I-240 has to overlap I-44 to get extended out that way.  It makes much more sense for I-344 to follow OK 152 and avoid the overlap.

[Plutonic Panda]

I kind of like the I-335 choice for the Kickapoo Turnpike. It psychologically forces the issue of the road needing to be extended down to I-35. I like the concept more than the idea of it being signed as I-240.

Does this mean that the OK 152 freeway will become part of Interstate 240?

I'm hoping it doesn't. This I-344 designation thing should overlap both the Kilpatrick Turnpike and the OK-152 Airport Road freeway the rest of the way to I-44.

I think they're still planning to extend I-240 along Airport Road and have it end oddly at the partial exit split with the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension. Yeah, I-240 will just come to a dead end at a surface street traffic signal. Currently both ends of I-240 terminate at Interstate highways. Although traffic going Eastbound through the OKC region would never know I-240 existed. I think any Western extension of I-240 should go up to I-40. It shouldn't just end at a surface street partial exit.

Especially since I-240 has to overlap I-44 to get extended out that way.  It makes much more sense for I-344 to follow OK 152 and avoid the overlap.

As someone else pointed out there is a planned future tollway south of the airport that will connect SH-152/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange so maybe they're planning on signing that as I-344.

The only way I could see I-240 making sense here is if there is a long term plan to build a future tollway on SH-152 through the heart of Mustang which wouldn't be impossible but would expensive and an uphill battle but it could happen. It could then tie into I-40 somewhere between Yukon and El Reno. That would be ideal for upgrading SH-4 into this fictional tollway creating a new seamless network of freeways for the southwest metro which desperately needs it if current growth continues.

[Bobby5280]

As someone else pointed out there is a planned future tollway south of the airport that will connect SH-152/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange so maybe they're planning on signing that as I-344.

That would be the Tri-City Connector. It starts on OK-152/Airport Road less than a mile East of the interchange with OK-152 and the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension. It runs South along the West side of the Will Rogers Airport property before merging into I-44. An extension of I-240 along Airport Road would have only two exits (Meridian and MacArthur) before reaching that Tri-City Connector interchange. That hardly makes any such extension of I-240 worth the bother.

The only way I could see I-240 making sense here is if there is a long term plan to build a future tollway on SH-152 through the heart of Mustang which wouldn't be impossible but would expensive and an uphill battle but it could happen.

I have a very hard time seeing a turnpike running along SW 74th Street thru Mustang being feasible at all. Too many commercial and residential properties are built up alongside it. More and more properties are going up all the time. The 6/2023 overhead imagery in Google Earth shows a LOT of bare red clay earth where new construction is taking place.

The OTA might have an outside chance trying to push a OK-152 freeway/turnpike down to OK-4 and farther West by using SW 89th Street to go West. But even that's getting covered up. There is a LOT of random home builds going up all over that area.

Both ODOT and OTA have missed a lot of opportunities to plan for the future in regard to the South and West outskirts of the OKC metro. They blew it 20+ years ago with OK-4 and South Sara Road thru Mustang. Now OK-4 going through Bridge Creek is getting covered up with new, rapid development. If the OTA ever wants to extend the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur North from I-44 up to I-40 they'll have to create a new alignment going well West of Mustang and Yukon.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah I asked an OTA rep about it and they said they have looked into it but didn't sound very optimistic about it. Joker planning 101 going on over here. This area is going to have extremely bad traffic if OKC ever grows to where sprawl reaches Tuttle. It's hard to believe no ROW was preserved even back when the HE Bailey was built you'd think they would have looked at a map and thought maybe we should work with the cities to preserve ROW here.

[MikieTimT]

Come on I-50! I-50!

YES!  We're back!