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Advisory Bike Lanes?

Started by Ned Weasel, April 06, 2022, 09:58:40 PM

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SkyPesos

Someone has never ridden a bike on a road before...


JoePCool14

Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

D. The parking lane has some trees to make it feel like it isn't as much of a part of the street.

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

7/8

Quote from: JoePCool14 on April 12, 2022, 12:08:15 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

D. The parking lane has some trees to make it feel like it isn't as much of a part of the street.

E. Raised crosswalk at the intersection.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 11, 2022, 02:53:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 07, 2022, 09:48:39 AM
Just stripe it like any old street, and then put up some R4-11 signs.



The Washington St off-ramp off of MA Route 28 in Somerville MA used to confuse me initially both as a cyclist and driver - I've noticed on this street drivers will not use both lanes until they get to the signal:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3814241,-71.0902546,3a,15.3y,173.42h,84.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBl8Wn3Par2QXsJ2yET_8-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I think it's a good compromise.
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: SectorZ on April 12, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

Because we properly design infrastructure, so it's safe enough to not need to wear a helmet.
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

vdeane

Plus they're using bikes as a primary form of transportation (unlike the US, where many people still tend to view bikes mainly as recreation/exercise).  How practical is it to carry a helmet with you everywhere you go or somehow store it with the bike?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cjw2001


Mr. Matté

Quote from: vdeane on April 13, 2022, 12:45:55 PM
How practical is it to carry a helmet with you everywhere you go or somehow store it with the bike?

Off topic to the original thread, but that is the reason why bike sharing programs in Australia, New Zealand, and Seattle fail due to their mandatory helmet laws.


Back on topic, throughout my extensive biking throughout Central Jersey, I've only seen this type installation done on a minor street in Princeton. However, of all the times I've been on that road (mostly as a result of my previous job having a project near there), the cars still tended to drive on the right sides of the road at all times, not drive carefully down the center.

kphoger

That video highlighted something I was thinking about the other day...

This setup is basically no different from a street with no striping at all.  So maybe that's my preferred solution:  just get rid of everything.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2022, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 12, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

Because we properly design infrastructure, so it's safe enough to not need to wear a helmet.

Eh, you can have the world's greatest engineers design the world's safest bike lane, and you can still have something like a branch fall on it and a biker go down and hit their head because they weren't paying attention.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bruce

Quote from: Mr. Matté on April 16, 2022, 05:31:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 13, 2022, 12:45:55 PM
How practical is it to carry a helmet with you everywhere you go or somehow store it with the bike?

Off topic to the original thread, but that is the reason why bike sharing programs in Australia, New Zealand, and Seattle fail due to their mandatory helmet laws.


The mandatory helmet law was repealed by King County in February (which means it no longer applies to Seattle). But even before that, the free-floating private-run bikeshare and scootershare was booming across the city. The first generation system just had awful stations, clunky bikes with no e-assist, and pricing that wasn't as attractive.

SectorZ

Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2022, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 12, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

Because we properly design infrastructure, so it's safe enough to not need to wear a helmet.

We? You're in Arlington Mass.

Which, btw, is next door to Lexington, a place I got in my worst cycling crash ever... with another idiot cyclist on a bike trail who elected to cross the dashed line and hit me partly head-on.

Feel free to actually ride a bicycle to learn what it's actually like.

Rothman

Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2022, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 12, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

Because we properly design infrastructure, so it's safe enough to not need to wear a helmet.
Right, so it's impossible to get in an accident.

Too many obvious levels of dumb in your statement here, especially as I was an avid cyclist in my younger years.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 16, 2022, 09:28:23 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2022, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 12, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

Because we properly design infrastructure, so it's safe enough to not need to wear a helmet.

Eh, you can have the world's greatest engineers design the world's safest bike lane, and you can still have something like a branch fall on it and a biker go down and hit their head because they weren't paying attention.
Same thing is true for cars, or for pedestrians. If my city had only protected bike lanes and off street paths I would not wear a helmet.


iPhone
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2022, 09:13:47 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2022, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 12, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

Because we properly design infrastructure, so it's safe enough to not need to wear a helmet.
Right, so it's impossible to get in an accident.

Too many obvious levels of dumb in your statement here, especially as I was an avid cyclist in my younger years.

That's extremely rude. I'm just saying the likelihood of crashing decreases with safer infrastructure. Please be a kinder person.


iPhone
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

Rothman



Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 18, 2022, 05:30:10 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2022, 09:13:47 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2022, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 12, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

Because we properly design infrastructure, so it's safe enough to not need to wear a helmet.
Right, so it's impossible to get in an accident.

Too many obvious levels of dumb in your statement here, especially as I was an avid cyclist in my younger years.

That's extremely rude. I'm just saying the likelihood of crashing decreases with safer infrastructure. Please be a kinder person.


iPhone

No, you said if you have good infrastructure, you don't have to wear a helmet, which simply isn't true due to the whole host of other reasons why you could get in an accident on a bicycle.  Just like there are all sorts of reasons cars get into accidents that don't have anything to do with the infrastructure.

Think of it this way: By your reasoning, motorcyclists shouldn't need to wear helmets on well-paved roads.  We had that one put that to the test some years ago in upstate NY when a motorcyclist died during a protest against helmet mandates.

But yeah, I was rude to not to soften my statement up with the usual euphemisms, so I apologize.  Let me rephrase:

It is very hard for me to comprehend someone saying helmets are optional while riding bicycles on well-designed infrastructure when there is so much overwhelming hard evidence and public health communication against that notion.

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kphoger

I cycle without a helmet.   :fight:
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

SectorZ

Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 18, 2022, 05:29:04 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 16, 2022, 09:28:23 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2022, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 12, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

Because we properly design infrastructure, so it's safe enough to not need to wear a helmet.

Eh, you can have the world's greatest engineers design the world's safest bike lane, and you can still have something like a branch fall on it and a biker go down and hit their head because they weren't paying attention.
Same thing is true for cars, or for pedestrians. If my city had only protected bike lanes and off street paths I would not wear a helmet.


iPhone

Are you serious? Protected bike lanes are still just as dangerous. People walking into your path to get to a car or wherever, hitting large debris because it all ends up near the curb, hitting the curb itself because you're forced to ride right up against it. Getting nailed by someone at an intersection (which is an overwhelming majority of cycling crashes) because you still have intersections. I notice you ignored my comment when responding to everyone else, because you have no logical response to it, other than to double down on saying that off-street paths are a panacea. Personally, I'd like to see you not sustain a head injury because there are a LOT of really f***ing stupid cyclists out there. Pedestrians too.

Fun fact: the only serious injury I've ever had cycling was in my own damn driveway. It was due to avoiding a (parked) car, and being a dumb 14 year old I just played my bets wrong on how to go around it.

Big John

I had a cousin who died in a bicycle accident.

Rothman

Quote from: kphoger on April 18, 2022, 07:00:35 PM
I cycle without a helmet.   :fight:
At least you accept it's a risk
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

KEK Inc.

Different modes of transportation should have their own ROW.  I support bike infrastructure, but sharrows, this or any space where two different speeds of transportation share the same space will lead to accidents.

The reason why you see so many people in Europe ride safely without helmets is that most of their infrastructure separates bikes from cars entirely, which is what we should do here.  The problem is how expensive that is, and that most of the funding for our roads stems from gas tax (cars).  Not to mention our car culture.
Take the road less traveled.

Rothman

Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 18, 2022, 10:57:30 PM
Different modes of transportation should have their own ROW.  I support bike infrastructure, but sharrows, this or any space where two different speeds of transportation share the same space will lead to accidents.

The reason why you see so many people in Europe ride safely without helmets is that most of their infrastructure separates bikes from cars entirely, which is what we should do here.  The problem is how expensive that is, and that most of the funding for our roads stems from gas tax (cars).  Not to mention our car culture.
So...wide roads. :D

The idea that you are riding safely without a helmet because of the infrastructure is a fallacy simply because of all the other factors that contribute to accidents.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

US 89

Quote from: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 11:03:50 PM
The idea that you are riding safely without a helmet because of the infrastructure is a fallacy simply because of all the other factors that contribute to accidents.

This exactly. My dad used to be an avid cyclist, and still is to some degree, but in a span of maybe six years he got into four significant accidents:

  • A county mosquito sprayer ATV pulled out right in front of him on a multi-use trail. He ran right into the side of it, broke both of his thumbs on the handlebars from the force of the collision, and flipped over the top
  • His bike slid out from underneath him where some gravel had been swept out into the street from the side (I think). Whatever it was, it ended up with him breaking his elbow, requiring surgery the next week
  • He fell off his bike and broke his wrist when my mom, whom he was riding with, ran into his back wheel because she thought he was turning and he wasn't
  • The worst one - he was on a mostly well-maintained dirt road and his front wheel got stuck in a sudden rut he didn't see, upon which he flipped over the handlebars and completely shattered his upper leg. That required two ambulance rides, emergency surgery the next day, and a week stay in the hospital after that followed by an almost yearlong recovery process
Notice anything in common about those? None of them involved cars. At least two of them would probably have resulted in head injuries had he not been wearing a helmet. There are a lot of ways to hit your head or otherwise injure yourself as a cyclist that don't involve conflict with automobile traffic.

KEK Inc.

If the wide road has curbs or easements separating different modes and narrow lanes for cars, then sure.  Wide lanes in an urban setting are just about the worst possible solution. 

Quote from: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 11:03:50 PM
The idea that you are riding safely without a helmet because of the infrastructure is a fallacy.
I wasn't recommending not wearing a helmet, but people in Europe do feel safer biking because their bicycle infrastructure is superior.

- dedicated cycle tracks
- consistently different pavement color
- bicycle priority in signals
- raised crosswalk/bicycle track crossings onto motorist lanes
- bicycle underpasses or overpasses to major motorist arterials
- consistent lighting for suburban bike trails
- narrow car lanes and road geometry to force drivers to slow down

The risk is much lower there, so people don't feel the need to wear a helmet.  Helmets are essential if a high-speed impact or accident may occur. 

One point no one has really discussed is that people in Europe bike much more casually and therefore slower.  While the infrastructure protects them from high-speed impacts from cars, they have one-speed bikes that maybe go 10 MPH. 
Most people who bike in the US are enthusiasts with high-speed bikes, so hitting a pothole can ruin your day.  Absolutely wear a helmet if you're biking above 15 MPH. 

On the flipside, the reason why we have high-speed bikes and not everyone wants to ride to work casually is that our infrastructure design makes it almost suicide if you're in a bike lane cruising at 10 MPH with cars blazing past you inches on your left going 30-40 MPH.  :bigass:
Take the road less traveled.

Rothman

Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 18, 2022, 11:45:27 PM
If the wide road has curbs or easements separating different modes and narrow lanes for cars, then sure.  Wide lanes in an urban setting are just about the worst possible solution. 

Quote from: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 11:03:50 PM
The idea that you are riding safely without a helmet because of the infrastructure is a fallacy.
I wasn't recommending not wearing a helmet, but people in Europe do feel safer biking because their bicycle infrastructure is superior.

- dedicated cycle tracks
- consistently different pavement color
- bicycle priority in signals
- raised crosswalk/bicycle track crossings onto motorist lanes
- bicycle underpasses or overpasses to major motorist arterials
- consistent lighting for suburban bike trails
- narrow car lanes and road geometry to force drivers to slow down

The risk is much lower there, so people don't feel the need to wear a helmet.  Helmets are essential if a high-speed impact or accident may occur. 

One point no one has really discussed is that people in Europe bike much more casually and therefore slower.  While the infrastructure protects them from high-speed impacts from cars, they have one-speed bikes that maybe go 10 MPH. 
Most people who bike in the US are enthusiasts with high-speed bikes, so hitting a pothole can ruin your day.  Absolutely wear a helmet if you're biking above 15 MPH. 

On the flipside, the reason why we have high-speed bikes and not everyone wants to ride to work casually is that our infrastructure design makes it almost suicide if you're in a bike lane cruising at 10 MPH with cars blazing past you inches on your left going 30-40 MPH.  :bigass:
So...many...unfounded...generalizations...

I have seen more fat tire enthusiasts than skinny tire high performance nuts...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.