CA 18

[cahwyguy]

My comments are based on the legal definitions of the LRNs, and what is shown on the state highway maps. Signage in the field can be different -- it is possible that DOH signed things on routes that were former LRNs. But the post I commented on was citing LRNs, and LRNs were not signed -- so we only have legal definitions to go on.

Editing this to be a bit more coherent -- the first version was done quickly before work. I can only go from the LRNs and the state highway maps. Signage in the field could have been different; other companies street maps could be different.

Let's start here:
LRN 181 (1935-1951): "[LRN 43] to [LRN 176] near Yorba Linda via Grand Avenue and Glassell Avenue"
LRN 178 (1933-1953): "Cerritos Avenue to [LRN 43] near Olive via Anaheim" . Cerritos Ave became Lakewood (SSR 19)
LRN 178 (1953-1957): "Lakewood Boulevard to Manchester Avenue via Carson-Lincoln"
LRN 178 (1957-1964): "[LRN 168] near Lakewood Boulevard to [LRN 174] near Anaheim"
LRN 175 (1933-1957): "[LRN 60] near Hermosa Beach to [LRN 43] in Santa Ana Canyon via Artesia Ave"
LRN 175 (1957-1964): "[LRN 60] near Hermosa Beach to [LRN 43] in Santa Ana Canyon"

Your recollection of signage could very well be correct: old signage could have remained even after LRNs went away. But I do disagree with some things.

1. I don't see how Brookhurst is involved at all. Look at the map. Brookhurst is far to the west of Anaheim, closer to Lakewood Blvd.
2. It could very well be DOH signed SSR 18/US 91 on Lincoln E of Manchester to State College. But the legislative definition for state maintenance (LRN) ended, after 1953, at Manchester.
3. LRN 181 would not have been involved, as it was dropped in 1951. LRN 181 is an interesting route -- look at the 1940 state highway map -- but it didn't have anything to do with this as an LRN
4. That doesn't mean the route couldn't have been signed along old LRN 181 as an interim measure -- in particular, along the Orange-Olive diagonal. But that would have just taken the traveler to Riverdale -- not to LRN 43. Look at the map.

Recollections are funny things, especially from when we were kids. The problem is reconciling these recollections with the published state highway maps and definitions, and with the street grid in the area.

Daniel

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Brookhurst alignment was only in place for about 15-18 months from late '61 to early '63;  it was deployed in order to place US 91 (after SSR 18 was removed) on the Riverside Freeway for a much longer distance, removing its run over Lincoln through downtown Anaheim (desired by that city, which was engaging in "urban renewal" during that period).  The signage was "trailblazer" in nature; the shields were accompanied by forward arrows on Brookhurst in both directions -- a distinct departure from Division standard practice, indicating it was simply another instance of funneling traffic between two state-maintained facilities over a local street.  Gousha didn't notate the difference, electing to show US 91 itself on Brookhurst.  Nevertheless, the US 91 shield at the Lincoln exit from the Santa Ana Freeway remained until early '63. 

As far as LRN 181 goes, I understand the point that it was deleted from the system some 10 years before all this happened.   Nevertheless, US 91 and/or SSR 18 did utilize the section of 181 along Orange-Olive Road (which paralleled the [then] ATSF RR line) between Lincoln and Santa Ana Canyon, onto which Orange-Olive segued on a broad curve prior to its extension to Riverdale in the '60's.  Actually, Lincoln terminated at Orange-Olive before the mid-60's; it wasn't extended toTustin Avenue until after the Newport/SSR 55 freeway was opened in '63.  Interestingly, if one travels north on Tustin Ave. from Lincoln you'd intersect an isolated remaining section of Santa Ana Canyon Road -- which, at least as of 2012, had its original 2-lane jointed pavement intact in both directions from Tustin (when living in Anaheim Hills in the late '90's and early 00's, I frequented a Chinese restaurant at that corner).  It's likely that this route, although long relinquished, remained signed as US 91/SSR 18 until the original Riverside Freeway expressway segment was completed in '58 simply for navigational purposes.  I traveled on it multiple times as a kid with my aunt & uncle to visit my cousin out in Yucaipa, and saw the north end of SSR 55 clearly delineated at the intersection of Santa Ana Canyon and the old alignment of Tustin (the north end of the 55 freeway sits atop that old facility).  Once both the 55 and 91 freeways were in place, the county and the various cities engaged in wholesale reconfiguration of that whole area in order to expedite development (industrial/commercial on the "flatlands" and housing in the hills). 

Fortunately, I do have an excellent idetic memory (although it doesn't extend to spatial things such as where I put my glasses, or phone, or paperwork.....ad nauseum!) that verges on the photographic.  But one thing about the O.C. flatlands -- there is definitely a deliberate grid pattern (partially shared with southern L.A. county) that dissipated, partially due to the Santa Ana River and other topological features, the further north and east one ventured.  But this whole discussion points out the difference between the maps issued by the Division of Highways and commercially available equivalents by Gousha and even McNally -- the former indicated what was maintained by the state, while the latter tended to reflect what was signed in the field regardless of legal status. 

BTW, the Brookhurst I'm talking about is a N-S arterial situated about halfway between Beach Blvd. and Harbor Blvd.; it's been there since as least WWII. 

[Max Rockatansky]

I wonder, would the California Highway and Public Work journals offer any insight into the signing of CA 18/US 91 on relinquished LRN 178?   I haven't found them to the best for announcing signage changes but they do occasionally have some compelling photos like the 1962 shield shot of I-5W. 

[cahwyguy]

Thanks for the clarification on the other Brookhurst. Looking at the current map, it looks like there's a very narrow E Santa Ana Canyon Road that intersects Olive-Orange a few blocks S of Riverdale. If I'm guessing correctly, that's where former LRN 181 used to turn (if you look at the 1940 map for LRN 181, it "kissed" LRN 43 unofficially before continuing N).

What this really makes clear is that -- at least in this area in the heyday of construction, DOH was creating temporary routings over non-state facilities -- Brookhurst, the relinquished Olive-Orange, and Lincoln E of Manchester being clear examples. Thus, looking at state maps -- and even some of the commercial maps -- may not be enough to figure this all out for the dynamic period of 1953-1963. LRNs are certainly less applicable. I'll go through this all to figure out how to describe all this as I'm doing my page updates (which is what triggered all of this).

A few additional questions. The state maps from that area show a jog in LRN 175 as it turns off Orangethorpe to meet LRN 43 at Santa Ana Canyon. Where was that jog? Tustin?  As LRN 175 was turned into the freeway, what was the progression on that end?

What was the original intent for LRN 181, which appears never to have been a signed route. If you look at the 1940 map, you see it going up Grand and Glassell, across Orange-Olive to something, doing a northern path with a jog up to what appears to be Yorba Linda, and then across to SSR 90. The 1940 also shows a to be constructed route continuing E back over to LRN 43 -- but that was never part of the state system. Why?

[Mark68]

^^^^^^^
Is it possible that jog (LRN 175) was on an extension of Jefferson St south of Orangethorpe? I'm not sure when Tustin was extended north from the 91 interchange, but it looks like Jefferson might have been the original alignment.

[cahwyguy]

What it almost looks like is that LRN 175 did Orangethorpe to Imperial Highway (SSR 90), and then to LRN 43.

LRN 176 looks to have had a jog, tho... along Yorba Linda (LRN 181) to perhaps Kellogg, then some odd dogleg I can't figure out on the map to Orangethorpe.

Look at the area on the 1948 map for reference. Perhaps you can figure it out.

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239573~5511882?qvq=q%3Acaltrans%3Bsort%3APub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No%3Blc%3ARUMSEY~8~1&mi=59&trs=86

[cahwyguy]

Did some more research -- I think I found the answer.

First: http://www.historicmapworks.com/Atlas/US/10538/Orange+County+1961/ appears to have a 1961 Renie Guide. Page 91 ( http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/157294/Orange+County+++Page+091/Orange+County+1961/California/ ) shows where Imperial Highway (SSR 90) meets Yorba Linda (which had been LRN 181 to the W of SSR 90). Looking at Page 95 (http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/157298/Orange+County+++Page+095/Orange+County+1961/California/ ), this shows that LRN 176 (SSR 90) goes E on Yorba Linda to Ohio St, Ohio to Mountain View, and then down a street called Orchard to Orangethorpe. Orchard Dr. appears to no longer exist, but based on the location of the school, I believe it to be Kellogg Dr today. The maps at https://www.ucolick.org/~sla/coolpix/ehsmaps/ make that a bit clearer.

Page 95 also makes it clear that the jog onto LRN 175 was along Jefferson, at least by 1961. HOWEVER, what appears to be a 1950 Topo map (which also shows the LRN 176 jog)  [ https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/overlay/CA/CA_Anaheim_296699_1942_62500_geo.jpg ]makes it clear that before the freeway, LRN 175 crossed over to LRN 43 at Imperial Highway. The SSR 18 signage appears to end at the Riverside Freeway (at least in 1961). Lincoln also did not continue E to Santiago -- it ran to Center and then Anaheim-Olive.

That brings us to LRN 181. Up Grand / Glassell to Orange-Olive as we thought) and then to Santa Ana Canyon. Up Jefferson as well and probably across Walnut to Richfield, as the 1948 state highway map shows LRN 181 to the S of LRN 175. Then up Richfield to Yorba Linda, and E to Imperial Highway. It still doesn't quite answer why LRN 181 was created, but ....

Whew!

[sparker]

Did some more research -- I think I found the answer.

First: http://www.historicmapworks.com/Atlas/US/10538/Orange+County+1961/ appears to have a 1961 Renie Guide. Page 91 ( http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/157294/Orange+County+++Page+091/Orange+County+1961/California/ ) shows where Imperial Highway (SSR 90) meets Yorba Linda (which had been LRN 181 to the W of SSR 90). Looking at Page 95 (http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/157298/Orange+County+++Page+095/Orange+County+1961/California/ ), this shows that LRN 176 (SSR 90) goes E on Yorba Linda to Ohio St, Ohio to Mountain View, and then down a street called Orchard to Orangethorpe. Orchard Dr. appears to no longer exist, but based on the location of the school, I believe it to be Kellogg Dr today. The maps at https://www.ucolick.org/~sla/coolpix/ehsmaps/ make that a bit clearer.

Page 95 also makes it clear that the jog onto LRN 175 was along Jefferson, at least by 1961. HOWEVER, what appears to be a 1950 Topo map (which also shows the LRN 176 jog)  [ https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/overlay/CA/CA_Anaheim_296699_1942_62500_geo.jpg ]makes it clear that before the freeway, LRN 175 crossed over to LRN 43 at Imperial Highway. The SSR 18 signage appears to end at the Riverside Freeway (at least in 1961). Lincoln also did not continue E to Santiago -- it ran to Center and then Anaheim-Olive.

That brings us to LRN 181. Up Grand / Glassell to Orange-Olive as we thought) and then to Santa Ana Canyon. Up Jefferson as well and probably across Walnut to Richfield, as the 1948 state highway map shows LRN 181 to the S of LRN 175. Then up Richfield to Yorba Linda, and E to Imperial Highway. It still doesn't quite answer why LRN 181 was created, but ....

Whew!

Really!  The convoluted route of not only 181 but just about anything in NE O.C. points to a likely political scenario that resulted in the myriad of parallel N-S routes in that region (providing state-maintained routes to most local jurisdictions).  There are several local points of interest along 181 -- the junction with LRN 182 (Grand & Chapman) is a longstanding town square/traffic "circle" that to this day defines central Orange.  And just north of there, Grand/181 bisects Chapman University (nee/College), one of the older colleges in the area.  And the location where LRN 181 turns south from Yorba Linda Blvd. is a block or two away from the present Nixon Library (I had a stash of pencils from that place and used to give them out as gag gifts!).  It seemed to be a "connect-the dots" affair from Santa Ana's east side up to Orange, and then on to Placentia and Yorba Linda.  What is interesting about the '48 map is that LRN 181 "kisses" LRN 43 as it turns north to cross the Santa Ana River; I for one would like to see pictures of that intersection (the northern 181 segment crossing the river was gone before my own journeys up the canyon).

Also note that LRN 62 is shown as state-maintained over Hacienda Blvd. from La Habra (LRN 2) to West Covina (LRN 26).  At some point I'll peruse Rumsey's collection to ascertain just when that segment was relinquished.         

[cahwyguy]

Or check my website :-)

The route that would become LRN 62 was first defined in the 1919 Third Bond Act was the route from Azuza to Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon. In 1933, the route was extended from Huntington Beach-Whitter Road near Buena Park to [LRN 9] near Azuza. This was codified in 1935 into the highway code as:
[LRN 171] near Buena Park to [LRN 9] near Azuza
[LRN 9] at Azuza to [LRN 61] via Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon
It was quickly amended by Chapter 626 in 1935 to split the first segment (the reason why is unclear):
[LRN 171] near Buena Park to Los Angeles-Orange County Line near La Habra
[LRN 26] near West Covina to [LRN 9] near Azuza
[LRN 9] at Azuza to [LRN 61] via Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon
In 1945, Chapter 1269 reverted the 1935 change. But, it didn't last for long, as in 1949, Chapter 1467 removed the segment from [LRN 2] (US 101) to [LRN 26] (US 70), making the definition:
[LRN 171] near Buena Park to [LRN 2] near La Habra
[LRN 26] near West Covina to [LRN 61] via Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon
Then, in 1959, the gap was restored, making the definition "[LRN 171] (US 101) near Buena Park to [LRN 61] (Route 2) via San Gabrial Canyon."
This is Route 39. It was signed in 1934.

[sparker]

Or check my website :-)

The route that would become LRN 62 was first defined in the 1919 Third Bond Act was the route from Azuza to Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon. In 1933, the route was extended from Huntington Beach-Whitter Road near Buena Park to [LRN 9] near Azuza. This was codified in 1935 into the highway code as:
[LRN 171] near Buena Park to [LRN 9] near Azuza
[LRN 9] at Azuza to [LRN 61] via Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon
It was quickly amended by Chapter 626 in 1935 to split the first segment (the reason why is unclear):
[LRN 171] near Buena Park to Los Angeles-Orange County Line near La Habra
[LRN 26] near West Covina to [LRN 9] near Azuza
[LRN 9] at Azuza to [LRN 61] via Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon
In 1945, Chapter 1269 reverted the 1935 change. But, it didn't last for long, as in 1949, Chapter 1467 removed the segment from [LRN 2] (US 101) to [LRN 26] (US 70), making the definition:
[LRN 171] near Buena Park to [LRN 2] near La Habra
[LRN 26] near West Covina to [LRN 61] via Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon
Then, in 1959, the gap was restored, making the definition "[LRN 171] (US 101) near Buena Park to [LRN 61] (Route 2) via San Gabrial Canyon."
This is Route 39. It was signed in 1934.

It's interesting that the segment between La Habra and West Covina was alternately designated, relinquished, designated, and ultimately relinquished again.  While it is a windy 2-lane road over the top of the Puente Hills, once down in the Hacienda Heights/Industry area, it has, at least since the La Puente segment was "straightlined" around 1959 (prior to that it used a convoluted path through that town's downtown area), been a multilane arterial except for the short stretch of signed 39 on the San Bernardino Freeway south frontage road that existed until about 1971 (long after the last relinquishment).  But it's likely that the ultimate through concept was to reroute CA 39 along the Azusa Ave. corridor to the east, since that crossing of the hills was 4-laned decades ago.  But Caltrans' longstanding reluctance to adopt additional surface streets likely doomed that concept -- so the gap remains, now abetted by the relinquishments in Azusa that, in terms of designation, isolate the segment of CA 39 in the San Gabriel mountains. 

[mrsman]

Or check my website :-)

The route that would become LRN 62 was first defined in the 1919 Third Bond Act was the route from Azuza to Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon. In 1933, the route was extended from Huntington Beach-Whitter Road near Buena Park to [LRN 9] near Azuza. This was codified in 1935 into the highway code as:
[LRN 171] near Buena Park to [LRN 9] near Azuza
[LRN 9] at Azuza to [LRN 61] via Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon
It was quickly amended by Chapter 626 in 1935 to split the first segment (the reason why is unclear):
[LRN 171] near Buena Park to Los Angeles-Orange County Line near La Habra
[LRN 26] near West Covina to [LRN 9] near Azuza
[LRN 9] at Azuza to [LRN 61] via Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon
In 1945, Chapter 1269 reverted the 1935 change. But, it didn't last for long, as in 1949, Chapter 1467 removed the segment from [LRN 2] (US 101) to [LRN 26] (US 70), making the definition:
[LRN 171] near Buena Park to [LRN 2] near La Habra
[LRN 26] near West Covina to [LRN 61] via Pine Flats in San Gabriel Canyon
Then, in 1959, the gap was restored, making the definition "[LRN 171] (US 101) near Buena Park to [LRN 61] (Route 2) via San Gabrial Canyon."
This is Route 39. It was signed in 1934.

It's interesting that the segment between La Habra and West Covina was alternately designated, relinquished, designated, and ultimately relinquished again.  While it is a windy 2-lane road over the top of the Puente Hills, once down in the Hacienda Heights/Industry area, it has, at least since the La Puente segment was "straightlined" around 1959 (prior to that it used a convoluted path through that town's downtown area), been a multilane arterial except for the short stretch of signed 39 on the San Bernardino Freeway south frontage road that existed until about 1971 (long after the last relinquishment).  But it's likely that the ultimate through concept was to reroute CA 39 along the Azusa Ave. corridor to the east, since that crossing of the hills was 4-laned decades ago.  But Caltrans' longstanding reluctance to adopt additional surface streets likely doomed that concept -- so the gap remains, now abetted by the relinquishments in Azusa that, in terms of designation, isolate the segment of CA 39 in the San Gabriel mountains.

As you noted, the signage gaps along CA 39 (and other relinquished highways) are extremely frustrating, especially when considering the former practice of signing the gaps to bring traffic from the old routings of 18/91 to the Riverside Fwy as the freeway was being constructed.  Given that Caltrans signs CA-14U along Sierra Hwy in Santa Clarita area (under state maintenance, but not really needed for navigational purposes, since most traffic in the area uses the CA-14 freeway instead), they (or perhaps the local cities and counties) should do the converse and sign CA-39R (relinquished) to adequately sign the gaps along routes where the middle section is relinquished to local control.  Another alternative is to use the county route shields but using the same number as the state highway.  So have a blue pentagon (instead of a green spade) with the number 39 to show the route to connect between the two state maintained routes.

Incidentally, there is a county route N8 right in this area.  It actually connects the two ends of former CA-39, but along Colima Road, so not the most direct way - but with far easier grades and curves than Hacienda.  Perhaps a not so subtle hint that drivers should use Colima instead of Hacienda if they are just passing through.

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^^^
N8 not only crosses Hacienda (former signed 39) but continues east on Colima to Azusa (the purported "future" CA 39 alignment) and then north, terminating at the I-10/CA 39 junction in Covina.  The one issue with N8 that prevents it from being an efficient alternative to either Hacienda or the Azusa/Fullerton/Harbor Blvd. continuum is the section through La Mirada -- it's something of a speed trap, especially the stretch passing near Biola University.   If not for that portion of the route,  the trip time from Buena Park to Covina would be cut by about a third with N8 versus the old 39 routing.  But presently the point of all this is effectively moot; D7's goal is to relinquish all of CA 39 in their (L.A. County) jurisdiction with the exception of the segment in San Gabriel Canyon.   If current practices continue, CA 39 will consist of two distinct sections:  Huntington Beach-La Habra (all in D12) and north of Azusa.