Palm Springs area roads

[ClassicHasClass]

Yeah, the old 99 bridge in Whitewater is (conveniently) at the Whitewater exit. There's a rock and supply place there, and it's east of that. Very easy to get to. https://www.google.com/maps/place/33°55'30.6"N+116°38'09.5"W

All the 86S shields are down near as I can tell, but there are probably some postmiles and bridge markers that still say it.

[Max Rockatansky]

Yeah, the old 99 bridge in Whitewater is (conveniently) at the Whitewater exit. There's a rock and supply place there, and it's east of that. Very easy to get to. https://www.google.com/maps/place/33°55'30.6"N+116°38'09.5"W

All the 86S shields are down near as I can tell, but there are probably some postmiles and bridge markers that still say it.

That's the one I was looking for.  I had it in my old hard drive bridge files but it was of the albums I couldn't recover. 

Does anyone known if that Geyser on CA 111 east of the Salton Sea is still active?  I didn't any indication on the Quickmap that was still an ongoing problem.

[ClassicHasClass]

I don't get down that way a great deal, but last time I was there a couple months ago I don't recall seeing it.

[skluth]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The geyser/mud pot has now closed a part of CA 111 near Nyland. It had been moving closer to the highway over the last several months. It looks pretty active in the videos on the local news.

[Mark68]

^^^^^^^^^
If the mud pot keeps moving west, wouldn't it be cheaper to just move the highway (and the adjacent railroad tracks) to the east of the pot? It looks like there would be SOME land acquisition necessary, but it doesn't appear to be a prohibitive amount.

[Max Rockatansky]

Ended up taking all of I-215, CA 79, CA 371, CA 74 and what's left of CA 111 into Palm Springs.  I forgot how impressive CA 74 really is through Santa Rosa-San Jacinto Mountains National Monument.  It was quite the shock to see how I-215 has been built up from CA 210 southward.  I was used to that long four lane stretch from CA 74 southward when I worked out in the area.  When did CA 111 move off of Indian Canyon/Palm Canyon through downtown Palm Springs?  That felt bizarre taking a swing on Gene Autry Trail. 

[sparker]

Ended up taking all of I-215, CA 79, CA 371, CA 74 and what's left of CA 111 into Palm Springs.  I forgot how impressive CA 74 really is through Santa Rosa-San Jacinto Mountains National Monument.  It was quite the shock to see how I-215 has been built up from CA 210 southward.  I was used to that long four lane stretch from CA 74 southward when I worked out in the area.  When did CA 111 move off of Indian Canyon/Palm Canyon through downtown Palm Springs?  That felt bizarre taking a swing on Gene Autry Trail. 

IIRC, the CA 111 detour via Gene Autry dates from the early-to-mid-90's.  When I moved from Portland down to Anaheim Hills back in 1997, I regularly visited a cousin who lived out in La Quinta; by that time, 111 had been relocated away from downtown Palm Springs.  That move was deemed a prerequisite for the city of Palm Springs to institute traffic calming and other modifications to Palm Canyon Drive.   

[Max Rockatansky]

Ended up taking all of I-215, CA 79, CA 371, CA 74 and what's left of CA 111 into Palm Springs.  I forgot how impressive CA 74 really is through Santa Rosa-San Jacinto Mountains National Monument.  It was quite the shock to see how I-215 has been built up from CA 210 southward.  I was used to that long four lane stretch from CA 74 southward when I worked out in the area.  When did CA 111 move off of Indian Canyon/Palm Canyon through downtown Palm Springs?  That felt bizarre taking a swing on Gene Autry Trail. 

IIRC, the CA 111 detour via Gene Autry dates from the early-to-mid-90's.  When I moved from Portland down to Anaheim Hills back in 1997, I regularly visited a cousin who lived out in La Quinta; by that time, 111 had been relocated away from downtown Palm Springs.  That move was deemed a prerequisite for the city of Palm Springs to institute traffic calming and other modifications to Palm Canyon Drive.

That's probably around when it happened since 111 was apparently relinquished in Cathedral City and El Mirage by 1996.  There is a 111 Business placard in place at Palm Canyon and Gene Autry with a very old shield to boot.  Gene Autry and Rio Vista have some shields but I didn't see a single Post Mile paddle.  Looking at Daniel's site the whole route of 111 in Palm Springs is up for relinquishment which would explain the light signage. 

[sparker]

Ended up taking all of I-215, CA 79, CA 371, CA 74 and what's left of CA 111 into Palm Springs.  I forgot how impressive CA 74 really is through Santa Rosa-San Jacinto Mountains National Monument.  It was quite the shock to see how I-215 has been built up from CA 210 southward.  I was used to that long four lane stretch from CA 74 southward when I worked out in the area.  When did CA 111 move off of Indian Canyon/Palm Canyon through downtown Palm Springs?  That felt bizarre taking a swing on Gene Autry Trail. 

IIRC, the CA 111 detour via Gene Autry dates from the early-to-mid-90's.  When I moved from Portland down to Anaheim Hills back in 1997, I regularly visited a cousin who lived out in La Quinta; by that time, 111 had been relocated away from downtown Palm Springs.  That move was deemed a prerequisite for the city of Palm Springs to institute traffic calming and other modifications to Palm Canyon Drive.

That's probably around when it happened since 111 was apparently relinquished in Cathedral City and El Mirage by 1996.  There is a 111 Business placard in place at Palm Canyon and Gene Autry with a very old shield to boot.  Gene Autry and Rio Vista have some shields but I didn't see a single Post Mile paddle.  Looking at Daniel's site the whole route of 111 in Palm Springs is up for relinquishment which would explain the light signage. 

That will leave CA 74 "dangling", so to speak; given Caltrans' recent disinterest in signage, that situation will likely result in that highway simply fading into virtual nothingness at the former CA 111 junction -- unless D8 regains some sense of propriety and signs CA 74 either along its former (pre-'64) SSR self east to Indio and I-10 or Monterey Ave. north of old CA 111 is brought into the state highway system up to I-10.  Don't expect the latter to occur; the agency is loath to adopt new surface routings, particularly in urban/suburban environments.  Even visible trailblazer signage to and from I-10 would be nice -- but even that seems beyond Caltrans sensibilities these days. 

[ClassicHasClass]

that situation will likely result in that highway simply fading into virtual nothingness at the former CA 111 junction

I'd say that's already the case. The signage around there is already "blink and miss it" from 111.

[Max Rockatansky]

that situation will likely result in that highway simply fading into virtual nothingness at the former CA 111 junction

I'd say that's already the case. The signage around there is already "blink and miss it" from 111.

I would agree with that sentiment, the highway is virtually unsigned at this point. Doesn't CA 75 already end at the city limits of Palm Desert?

Had a hell of a day today.  Spent about 4 hours hiking out in Joshua Tree National Park.  I checked out; Pinto Basin Road, a freshly paved Box Canyon Road (Old US 60/70/CA 195), Old CA 231, the new CA 86 expressway and even the old Whitewater Bridge (at least as close as I could get).  The rebuild of Box Canyon Road is actually pretty impressive but still doesn't really have the grade it needs to avoid flooding.

[sparker]

that situation will likely result in that highway simply fading into virtual nothingness at the former CA 111 junction

I'd say that's already the case. The signage around there is already "blink and miss it" from 111.

I would agree with that sentiment, the highway is virtually unsigned at this point. Doesn't CA 75 already end at the city limits of Palm Desert?

Had a hell of a day today.  Spent about 4 hours hiking out in Joshua Tree National Park.  I checked out; Pinto Basin Road, a freshly paved Box Canyon Road (Old US 60/70/CA 195), Old CA 231, the new CA 86 expressway and even the old Whitewater Bridge (at least as close as I could get).  The rebuild of Box Canyon Road is actually pretty impressive but still doesn't really have the grade it needs to avoid flooding.

Although the standard Caltrans relinquishment agreement calls for maintaining route signage for the sake of continuity and navigation, that seems to be honored more in the breach than the observance.  The local jurisdictions either don't want to be bothered with sign maintenance or, in some potential circumstances, would rather not "enable" through commercial traffic through their midst by providing an easy-to-follow signed route (maintenance details of such notwithstanding).  And by now it's pretty clear that enforcement of those agreements is well down Caltrans' priority list.  D8 is probably just happy to have the maintenance of 111 off their books, while La Quinta and the other traversed cities are equally happy to be able to configure the facility to their liking.  I suppose Caltrans figures if they get CA 74 traffic down off the mountain and into the general Coachella Valley urbanized area, they've done their job.   To those of us who value a cohesive highway network (maybe we're just fossils!), the situation is quite pathetic!   

[Max Rockatansky]

that situation will likely result in that highway simply fading into virtual nothingness at the former CA 111 junction

I'd say that's already the case. The signage around there is already "blink and miss it" from 111.

I would agree with that sentiment, the highway is virtually unsigned at this point. Doesn't CA 75 already end at the city limits of Palm Desert?

Had a hell of a day today.  Spent about 4 hours hiking out in Joshua Tree National Park.  I checked out; Pinto Basin Road, a freshly paved Box Canyon Road (Old US 60/70/CA 195), Old CA 231, the new CA 86 expressway and even the old Whitewater Bridge (at least as close as I could get).  The rebuild of Box Canyon Road is actually pretty impressive but still doesn't really have the grade it needs to avoid flooding.

Although the standard Caltrans relinquishment agreement calls for maintaining route signage for the sake of continuity and navigation, that seems to be honored more in the breach than the observance.  The local jurisdictions either don't want to be bothered with sign maintenance or, in some potential circumstances, would rather not "enable" through commercial traffic through their midst by providing an easy-to-follow signed route (maintenance details of such notwithstanding).  And by now it's pretty clear that enforcement of those agreements is well down Caltrans' priority list.  D8 is probably just happy to have the maintenance of 111 off their books, while La Quinta and the other traversed cities are equally happy to be able to configure the facility to their liking.  I suppose Caltrans figures if they get CA 74 traffic down off the mountain and into the general Coachella Valley urbanized area, they've done their job.   To those of us who value a cohesive highway network (maybe we're just fossils!), the situation is quite pathetic!

Looks like 74 had continuation signage as part of the relinquishment but not 111.  Something I noticed yesterday was that there is 111 signs on 66th Avenue in Mecca directing traffic to CA 86.  The 111 signage multiplexes onto 86 north but disappears before 62nd Avenue.  I'm still working on my photos so I'll post them when available.  Suffice to say the situation with 111 disappearing in the middle of 86 is odd. 

[mrsman]

This topic reminds me of a suggestion I had put in place in Fictional Highways a number of years ago to straighten out some of the highway alignments in the Indio area.  In my mind, there is no need for a state maintained Hwy 111 north of Mecca (66th Ave).  Traffic going to the Salton Sea area should take I-10 to CA 86 and then stay on CA 86 for the west shore and traffic to Imperial County and east shore traffic should cut off at 66th Ave for 111.

The remaining parts of 111 can be known by their local names (Palm Canyon, Grapefruit, Indio Blvd, etc.).  The one problem is that there seems to be a large section in Palm Desert and Indian Wells where the road is just known as Hwy 111.  Hopefully, the local authorities can come up with an appropriate name for the corridor.  This stretch is really local in nature as thru E-W traffic thru the valley should just take I-10.

As far as CA 74, they can leave it hanging, but they must put in really good directional signage at its end in Palm Desert.  Turn left to Palm Springs.  Stay straight on Moneterey Ave to reach I-10. Turn right for Indio.  And there should also be good signage to guide traffic in the other direction as well to guide traffic from I-10 to CA 7 via Monterey.

[sparker]

This topic reminds me of a suggestion I had put in place in Fictional Highways a number of years ago to straighten out some of the highway alignments in the Indio area.  In my mind, there is no need for a state maintained Hwy 111 north of Mecca (66th Ave).  Traffic going to the Salton Sea area should take I-10 to CA 86 and then stay on CA 86 for the west shore and traffic to Imperial County and east shore traffic should cut off at 66th Ave for 111.

The remaining parts of 111 can be known by their local names (Palm Canyon, Grapefruit, Indio Blvd, etc.).  The one problem is that there seems to be a large section in Palm Desert and Indian Wells where the road is just known as Hwy 111.  Hopefully, the local authorities can come up with an appropriate name for the corridor.  This stretch is really local in nature as thru E-W traffic thru the valley should just take I-10.

As far as CA 74, they can leave it hanging, but they must put in really good directional signage at its end in Palm Desert.  Turn left to Palm Springs.  Stay straight on Moneterey Ave to reach I-10. Turn right for Indio.  And there should also be good signage to guide traffic in the other direction as well to guide traffic from I-10 to CA 7 via Monterey.

Should is the operative word here -- but the agency tends not to place "trailblazer" signage such as that suggested.   While Monterey is the shortest route from the former 74/111 intersection to I-10, it's quite out of the way for traffic from eastward I-10 (and CA 86 and the remaining CA 111 section as well) to go to access CA 74's "Palms to Pines" mountain stretch.  Simply signing "TO CA 74" or, alternately, "TO I-10 EAST"  along former 111 into Indio and on to I-10 itself would be more useful for through traffic to and from 74. 

The last time I was down there (ca. 2012) the green street ID signs hanging from the signal arms on crossing roads still referenced "Highway 111" along the former alignment from Palm Desert through La Quinta and on to Indio Blvd.   

[Max Rockatansky]

This topic reminds me of a suggestion I had put in place in Fictional Highways a number of years ago to straighten out some of the highway alignments in the Indio area.  In my mind, there is no need for a state maintained Hwy 111 north of Mecca (66th Ave).  Traffic going to the Salton Sea area should take I-10 to CA 86 and then stay on CA 86 for the west shore and traffic to Imperial County and east shore traffic should cut off at 66th Ave for 111.

The remaining parts of 111 can be known by their local names (Palm Canyon, Grapefruit, Indio Blvd, etc.).  The one problem is that there seems to be a large section in Palm Desert and Indian Wells where the road is just known as Hwy 111.  Hopefully, the local authorities can come up with an appropriate name for the corridor.  This stretch is really local in nature as thru E-W traffic thru the valley should just take I-10.

As far as CA 74, they can leave it hanging, but they must put in really good directional signage at its end in Palm Desert.  Turn left to Palm Springs.  Stay straight on Moneterey Ave to reach I-10. Turn right for Indio.  And there should also be good signage to guide traffic in the other direction as well to guide traffic from I-10 to CA 7 via Monterey.

Should is the operative word here -- but the agency tends not to place "trailblazer" signage such as that suggested.   While Monterey is the shortest route from the former 74/111 intersection to I-10, it's quite out of the way for traffic from eastward I-10 (and CA 86 and the remaining CA 111 section as well) to go to access CA 74's "Palms to Pines" mountain stretch.  Simply signing "TO CA 74" or, alternately, "TO I-10 EAST"  along former 111 into Indio and on to I-10 itself would be more useful for through traffic to and from 74. 

The last time I was down there (ca. 2012) the green street ID signs hanging from the signal arms on crossing roads still referenced "Highway 111" along the former alignment from Palm Desert through La Quinta and on to Indio Blvd.   

And they still do reference 111 at least in Palm Desert.  More concerning for me is the lack of a signed alternative to I-10 through Coachella Valley.  Usually when something goes wrong on I-10 the only alternates are Dillon Road if you can reach it but more so I-10.  An I-10 Business Route would probably be really appropriate if the remaining segment of 111 gets relinquished maybe with Dillon Road or Golf Center Parkway as an eastern terminus?

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^^^
If it weren't for the track record regarding Caltrans and business routes (wow, I'm certainly getting increasingly cynical about that agency!), I'd second the business loop notion; at least it would provide a signed routing (maintenance details notwithstanding) at which to terminate an interregional artery like CA 74 -- if trailblazer signage indicating such were deployed as well.  IIRC, for a short while in the '80's the original 60/70/99 route through Indio actually featured Business I-10 green shields; the last time I was down on that road (circa 2011) I didn't notice any remaining.  OTOH, D8's signage of Business Loop 15 through Victorville is exemplary, down to the right-angle turn at 7th and D Streets!  I suppose obtaining cooperation of the local jurisdiction through which said loop extends is vital (V'ville also regularly indicates that loop as "Historic Route 66"; the Route 66 museum is located on the D Street segment of the loop, which may account for the city's tourist-related incentive).  But getting Palm Springs, Palm Desert, Indian Wells, La Quinta, and Indio to cooperate on such a venture might be a hard sell, particularly since Palm Springs really doesn't seem to want a signed continuous route through its downtown; OTOH the other towns might welcome the business (the region's "auto row" is along part of old 111).  And there's the matter of the rural/desert section of CA 111 from Palm Springs NW to I-10 at Whitewater; it's unlikely that either Riverside County nor any local jurisdiction would assent to assume maintenance of that segment; it'll probably remain a Caltrans property.  Replacing the CA 111 shield with a Business 10 equivalent (that's the infamous "other Desert cities" assembly!) wouldn't in itself be problematic -- but the aforementioned concept of Business 10 through Palm Springs would be, unless the last 111 routing via Gene Autry and the airport were to be utilized as the default route.  It might be something for D8 and the local MPO to explore -- but my own fear would be that there are just too many "ducks" to get lined up to get something like this accomplished -- especially with Caltrans' seeming lack of interest in surface signage.   

[Desert Man]

I grew up a walk away from the often washed-out Avenue 44 crossing at the storm channel. It's what's considered a low-traffic road and of little importance. There's no ramp on Avenue 44 with I-10, you have to use Golf Center Parkway or Jackson Street instead.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^^^^^^^^
If it weren't for the track record regarding Caltrans and business routes (wow, I'm certainly getting increasingly cynical about that agency!), I'd second the business loop notion; at least it would provide a signed routing (maintenance details notwithstanding) at which to terminate an interregional artery like CA 74 -- if trailblazer signage indicating such were deployed as well.  IIRC, for a short while in the '80's the original 60/70/99 route through Indio actually featured Business I-10 green shields; the last time I was down on that road (circa 2011) I didn't notice any remaining.  OTOH, D8's signage of Business Loop 15 through Victorville is exemplary, down to the right-angle turn at 7th and D Streets!  I suppose obtaining cooperation of the local jurisdiction through which said loop extends is vital (V'ville also regularly indicates that loop as "Historic Route 66"; the Route 66 museum is located on the D Street segment of the loop, which may account for the city's tourist-related incentive).  But getting Palm Springs, Palm Desert, Indian Wells, La Quinta, and Indio to cooperate on such a venture might be a hard sell, particularly since Palm Springs really doesn't seem to want a signed continuous route through its downtown; OTOH the other towns might welcome the business (the region's "auto row" is along part of old 111).  And there's the matter of the rural/desert section of CA 111 from Palm Springs NW to I-10 at Whitewater; it's unlikely that either Riverside County nor any local jurisdiction would assent to assume maintenance of that segment; it'll probably remain a Caltrans property.  Replacing the CA 111 shield with a Business 10 equivalent (that's the infamous "other Desert cities" assembly!) wouldn't in itself be problematic -- but the aforementioned concept of Business 10 through Palm Springs would be, unless the last 111 routing via Gene Autry and the airport were to be utilized as the default route.  It might be something for D8 and the local MPO to explore -- but my own fear would be that there are just too many "ducks" to get lined up to get something like this accomplished -- especially with Caltrans' seeming lack of interest in surface signage.   

Something that I find irksome with 111 is that there is no way the route will be relinquished west of the City Limits of Palm Springs.  In effect that will leave another Route with a huge gap in it akin to CA 16 and CA 160.  At minimum there could be some clarity but petitioning the legislature to assign a different number from I-10 east to Palm Springs but that likely would never happen. The problem with all the localities attempting to sign a business route is like you said, competing interests that likely don't agree with all parties.  It kind of makes me think that we need an Auto Club type body to sign through highways again regardless of who maintains them like the early State Route era. 

[Max Rockatansky]

Speaking of Whitewater, how come traffic can no longer cross the 1923 Whitewater Bridge?  There is a security guard posted there now telling people the road is closed to traffic but there is zero signage indicating it is closed nor a private road.  I recall years ago people would actually do stupid things like try to get in the River there or access the windmill farms uphill. 

Edit:  Seems the BLM ordered the closure of public access to Whitewater Canyon.  Now some of the things the guy was saying at the bridge make more sense:

https://www.wildlandsconservancy.org/preserve_whitewater.html

At minimum I was able to get a couple photos of the bridge and early concrete alignment of US 60/70/99.

[ClassicHasClass]

An I-10 Business Route

There is one, at least in Indio. It's not well signed but (out there on business this very morning) it's still visible on some of the cross streets.

[skluth]

Speaking of Whitewater, how come traffic can no longer cross the 1923 Whitewater Bridge?  There is a security guard posted there now telling people the road is closed to traffic but there is zero signage indicating it is closed nor a private road.  I recall years ago people would actually do stupid things like try to get in the River there or access the windmill farms uphill. 

Edit:  Seems the BLM ordered the closure of public access to Whitewater Canyon.  Now some of the things the guy was saying at the bridge make more sense:

https://www.wildlandsconservancy.org/preserve_whitewater.html

At minimum I was able to get a couple photos of the bridge and early concrete alignment of US 60/70/99.

People were swimming in the water illegally. Two people died last year when a kid got swept away in the water and his father tried to save him. That wasn't enough to deter others from going into the river. After repeated warnings, they finally had to close it off.

[Max Rockatansky]

Speaking of Whitewater, how come traffic can no longer cross the 1923 Whitewater Bridge?  There is a security guard posted there now telling people the road is closed to traffic but there is zero signage indicating it is closed nor a private road.  I recall years ago people would actually do stupid things like try to get in the River there or access the windmill farms uphill. 

Edit:  Seems the BLM ordered the closure of public access to Whitewater Canyon.  Now some of the things the guy was saying at the bridge make more sense:

https://www.wildlandsconservancy.org/preserve_whitewater.html

At minimum I was able to get a couple photos of the bridge and early concrete alignment of US 60/70/99.

People were swimming in the water illegally. Two people died last year when a kid got swept away in the water and his father tried to save him. That wasn't enough to deter others from going into the river. After repeated warnings, they finally had to close it off.

So the BLM closed access off for the entire river and shuttered a Wildlands Conservatory Preserve because of that?  Wouldn't it have easier just to put a gate and fence at the bridge and let the Wildlands Conservancy manage their own Preserve?  That seems kind of excessive considering some of the stuff people do out in Joshua Tree National Park that ended up getting them killed there.  As far as I know the only thing that can be accessed on the opposite side of the Whitewater Bridge is the windmill farm anyways.  The Wildlands Conservancy seems to do a pretty good job at managing wilderness areas, or at least I thought so with San Emigdio Canyon in the Wind Wolves Preserve. 

[Desert Man]

A new bridge on Vista Chino may be the last major road to have an all-weather bridge in the Coachella Valley. In the 1970s-80s, there were 5 of them: Ramon, Date Palm, Bob Hope, Washington and Indio Blvd., plus 3 more in Monroe, Jackson and Golf Center to connect with I-10. The Indian Canyon and Gene Autry roads crosses 3 miles of the Whitewater river flood area.

[skluth]

Speaking of Whitewater, how come traffic can no longer cross the 1923 Whitewater Bridge?  There is a security guard posted there now telling people the road is closed to traffic but there is zero signage indicating it is closed nor a private road.  I recall years ago people would actually do stupid things like try to get in the River there or access the windmill farms uphill. 

Edit:  Seems the BLM ordered the closure of public access to Whitewater Canyon.  Now some of the things the guy was saying at the bridge make more sense:

https://www.wildlandsconservancy.org/preserve_whitewater.html

At minimum I was able to get a couple photos of the bridge and early concrete alignment of US 60/70/99.

People were swimming in the water illegally. Two people died last year when a kid got swept away in the water and his father tried to save him. That wasn't enough to deter others from going into the river. After repeated warnings, they finally had to close it off.

So the BLM closed access off for the entire river and shuttered a Wildlands Conservatory Preserve because of that?  Wouldn't it have easier just to put a gate and fence at the bridge and let the Wildlands Conservancy manage their own Preserve?  That seems kind of excessive considering some of the stuff people do out in Joshua Tree National Park that ended up getting them killed there.  As far as I know the only thing that can be accessed on the opposite side of the Whitewater Bridge is the windmill farm anyways.  The Wildlands Conservancy seems to do a pretty good job at managing wilderness areas, or at least I thought so with San Emigdio Canyon in the Wind Wolves Preserve.

Two separate closures. The Whitewater Preserve and road leading to it suffered a lot of damage from the Valentine's Day storm like many other local roads. The road is not a high priority as it only has a couple homes on it besides Preserve buildings and those homes are fairly close to the old main road. There's a little more info on the site, but that's basically the story. 

Sorry for the confusion.