Illinois notes

[vdeane]

The solution is to have a tag or pay a little surcharge for toll-by-plate.  This "we tack on a late fee" or whatever it is should be illegal for simplicity of navigation's sake.

Kind of ridiculous to have a motorist look at a map and then have to search the Internet to see how to pay.

Then again, reminds me of someone I knew who moved from WI to the East somewhere and prepared to pay tolls with a bag of change, since he had never really left MN or WI before.  This was in the very early 2000s.  Found out that tolls were way over a quarter even then.

Exactly.  I don't think it's a coincidence that all of the people who have decided that this is a hill to die on are all local to the one toll authority in the entire country that does this.  The entire premise of their argument is that "the toll road might tack on a late fee if I don't pay online first" is a reasonable expectation to have.

[SEWIGuy]

It's completely reasonable.

[sprjus4]

It's completely reasonable.

That is subjective.

[edwaleni]

Maybe the topic will take on this guys license plate.

[hobsini2]

Like I said before, yes there could and should be more signage giving you a warning.  But it is upon the motorist to know where they are going and whether or not the highway is a toll road or toll bridge.

I strongly agree with this sentiment. If you're local, you would have done enough driving by now to know what is tolled and what isn't. If you aren't local, you should have done your research ahead of time on where to go rather than blindly following a GPS.

We should remove curve advisories, warning signs altogether since motorists should have done their research on every curve and blind intersection a road has.

Completely missed the point. I said there should be more warning signs (mainly because the general public is stupid when it comes to geography) but the motorist should be proactive in knowing what route to take and if it has tolls.

[vdeane]

It's completely reasonable.

Maybe if you're used to the idea.  But for those of us who don't live near ISTHA and are used to bill by mail being the default for non-transponder users, how would we have any expectation that it's a possibility?  I only know of such because of this discussion, and I imagine that any non-roadgeek from NY who doesn't have current/former ties to Illinois would have any basis for being aware of such things.  That's assuming they even saw that it's a toll road at all, as Google Maps only marks them when zoomed in close and it's a short enough stretch that I can see people missing it with paper maps.

[SEWIGuy]

It's completely reasonable.

Maybe if you're used to the idea.  But for those of us who don't live near ISTHA and are used to bill by mail being the default for non-transponder users, how would we have any expectation that it's a possibility?  I only know of such because of this discussion, and I imagine that any non-roadgeek from NY who doesn't have current/former ties to Illinois would have any basis for being aware of such things.  That's assuming they even saw that it's a toll road at all, as Google Maps only marks them when zoomed in close and it's a short enough stretch that I can see people missing it with paper maps.

Sorry you don't believe in being prepared when travelling out of your area. If you are going to be so ignorant, you deserve to be fined.

[sprjus4]

It's completely reasonable.

Maybe if you're used to the idea.  But for those of us who don't live near ISTHA and are used to bill by mail being the default for non-transponder users, how would we have any expectation that it's a possibility?  I only know of such because of this discussion, and I imagine that any non-roadgeek from NY who doesn't have current/former ties to Illinois would have any basis for being aware of such things.  That's assuming they even saw that it's a toll road at all, as Google Maps only marks them when zoomed in close and it's a short enough stretch that I can see people missing it with paper maps.

Sorry you don't believe in being prepared when travelling out of your area. If you are going to be so ignorant, you deserve to be fined.

What? 

[hotdogPi]

Let's say the Mass Pike decides to charge $40 for the segment between I-84 and I-290 unless you stay within the 65 mph speed limit. This won't show up on a map, as toll roads show up the same color regardless of price. Would you support this?

[wanderer2575]

Let's say the Mass Pike decides to charge $40 for the segment between I-84 and I-290 unless you stay within the 65 mph speed limit. This won't show up on a map, as toll roads show up the same color regardless of price. Would you support this?

Support it?  No.  Drive the Pike again once I know it?  No.  Accept the $40 penalty because I drove the Pike and didn't obey that rule, even though I didn't know of it?  Yes.  Be happy about it?  No.

Don't know how many times it needs to be repeated but I'll do so again:  A map won't show toll rates or payment options.  It shows that it's a toll road, and from there it's on the motorist to be aware of the details.

How about a non-toll example:  A truck bashes into a backroads bridge because the clearance is insufficient for that truck.  The bridge clearance doesn't show on the map and isn't posted at the bridge.  Would you say the truck driver is not responsible because he shouldn't have to make sure himself that the truck will clear the bridge?

[SEWIGuy]

Let's say the Mass Pike decides to charge $40 for the segment between I-84 and I-290 unless you stay within the 65 mph speed limit. This won't show up on a map, as toll roads show up the same color regardless of price. Would you support this?

It would be my responsibility to understand the rates of the Mass Pike if travelling to the area.

[kphoger]

It's pointless to argue any further because, if it were the toll agency's SOP to send thugs to your house, break down the door, rough you up with pipes, confiscate your whole wallet, and then take a dump on your front porch on the way out—then I'm confident |SEWIGuy| would still say you should have done your research and found that out before doing something so stupid as taking I-80 all the way from Portage to Princeton.

[SEWIGuy]

You know you've lost the argument when you resort to hyperbolic nonsense.

[vdeane]

It's completely reasonable.

Maybe if you're used to the idea.  But for those of us who don't live near ISTHA and are used to bill by mail being the default for non-transponder users, how would we have any expectation that it's a possibility?  I only know of such because of this discussion, and I imagine that any non-roadgeek from NY who doesn't have current/former ties to Illinois would have any basis for being aware of such things.  That's assuming they even saw that it's a toll road at all, as Google Maps only marks them when zoomed in close and it's a short enough stretch that I can see people missing it with paper maps.

Sorry you don't believe in being prepared when travelling out of your area. If you are going to be so ignorant, you deserve to be fined.

You're talking to someone who rants about how little preparation most people do with a decent regularity, and even I think you're expecting too much.  Think about that.

In this case, it's hard to look up something if you don't know what you need to look up or even that you need to look something up.  Like I said, every other toll agency in the entire country that allows non-transponder users does bill by mail as the default for non-transponder users.  Not this "pay online or get a bill with a late fee" stuff that ISTHA does.

And like I said, it's such a short section.  On my nation-wide atlas, it's only about a centimeter long, and the green isn't so distinct that you'd notice it unless you're looking specifically at it, especially as the rest of I-80 is free (I know Illinois considers I-294 to be the primary route here, but nobody else does).  And Google won't tell you unless you're closely zoomed in, and I'm not sure if that would even show up with the directions line already on it (and I would guess that most long-distance travelers are also taking the Illinois Toll Road, so Google mentioning the route has tolls won't help either).  I do go over my entire route before drives so I can check street view of all turns, but even that might not pick this up, and even that is more than what 99% of motorists will do.  Just acknowledging reality here.

[paulthemapguy]

You know you've lost the argument when you resort to hyperbolic nonsense.

Hyperbolic nonsense is expecting the general public to be as road-obsessed and detail-oriented as we are. Heck, a lot of the truck drivers getting stuck with fines can't even read or speak English, for whatever reason.  You pay attention to these things; most of the general public doesn't, as frustrating as it might be.  Most people don't have the time or the interest to google search every road they travel on.  Hell, some older and less literate people don't even know how to google something!

[SEWIGuy]

It's completely reasonable.

Maybe if you're used to the idea.  But for those of us who don't live near ISTHA and are used to bill by mail being the default for non-transponder users, how would we have any expectation that it's a possibility?  I only know of such because of this discussion, and I imagine that any non-roadgeek from NY who doesn't have current/former ties to Illinois would have any basis for being aware of such things.  That's assuming they even saw that it's a toll road at all, as Google Maps only marks them when zoomed in close and it's a short enough stretch that I can see people missing it with paper maps.

Sorry you don't believe in being prepared when travelling out of your area. If you are going to be so ignorant, you deserve to be fined.

You're talking to someone who rants about how little preparation most people do with a decent regularity, and even I think you're expecting too much.  Think about that.

In this case, it's hard to look up something if you don't know what you need to look up or even that you need to look something up.  Like I said, every other toll agency in the entire country that allows non-transponder users does bill by mail as the default for non-transponder users.  Not this "pay online or get a bill with a late fee" stuff that ISTHA does.

And like I said, it's such a short section.  On my nation-wide atlas, it's only about a centimeter long, and the green isn't so distinct that you'd notice it unless you're looking specifically at it, especially as the rest of I-80 is free (I know Illinois considers I-294 to be the primary route here, but nobody else does).  And Google won't tell you unless you're closely zoomed in, and I'm not sure if that would even show up with the directions line already on it (and I would guess that most long-distance travelers are also taking the Illinois Toll Road, so Google mentioning the route has tolls won't help either).  I do go over my entire route before drives so I can check street view of all turns, but even that might not pick this up, and even that is more than what 99% of motorists will do.  Just acknowledging reality here.

The reality is that it's fine. Just drive it today and there is plenty of signage.

And it doesn't matter what the rest of the country does.

[SEWIGuy]

You know you've lost the argument when you resort to hyperbolic nonsense.

Hyperbolic nonsense is expecting the general public to be as road-obsessed and detail-oriented as we are. Heck, a lot of the truck drivers getting stuck with fines can't even read or speak English, for whatever reason.  You pay attention to these things; most of the general public doesn't, as frustrating as it might be.  Most people don't have the time or the interest to google search every road they travel on.  Hell, some older and less literate people don't even know how to google something!

Then their ignorance will force them to pay a small upcharge when the invoice arrives in the mail.

[kphoger]

And it doesn't matter what the rest of the country does.

It should matter, when we're talking about what it's reasonable for visitors to expect when they get there.

[sprjus4]

And it doesn't matter what the rest of the country does.

It should matter, when we're talking about what it's reasonable for visitors to expect when they get there.

But they should've done research and learned all the ins and outs of Illinois' toll system that are not immediately clear but "well signed" 

[SEWIGuy]

The fact that they are on a toll road is well signed. How to pay is well signed. It's the driver's responsibility to figure it out from there.

[hobsini2]

The fact that they are on a toll road is well signed. How to pay is well signed. It's the driver's responsibility to figure it out from there.

How to pay is signed? Yes. Well signed?  According to some who can't read overhead gantries quickly that say "I-Pass or Pay Online" at EVERY PLAZA now, it's debatable.
I-39/90 South Beloit Plaza: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4514985,-88.994909,3a,15.8y,168.13h,95.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssH_oPlF5C-xg0Qyj4RxMyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

I-94 Waukegan Plaza: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4488879,-87.9590904,3a,75y,165.09h,93.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIeyoLOkk12GjHdG9VtJuYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Now you could make a case that these signs should say at the bottom "NO CASH ACCEPTED". https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8218171,-89.4613633,3a,75y,85.99h,89.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk31FIgQp15-ku_aIkOptQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[mgk920]

The fact that they are on a toll road is well signed. How to pay is well signed. It's the driver's responsibility to figure it out from there.

How to pay is signed? Yes. Well signed?  According to some who can't read overhead gantries quickly that say "I-Pass or Pay Online" at EVERY PLAZA now, it's debatable.
I-39/90 South Beloit Plaza: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4514985,-88.994909,3a,15.8y,168.13h,95.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssH_oPlF5C-xg0Qyj4RxMyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

I-94 Waukegan Plaza: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4488879,-87.9590904,3a,75y,165.09h,93.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIeyoLOkk12GjHdG9VtJuYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Now you could make a case that these signs should say at the bottom "NO CASH ACCEPTED". https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8218171,-89.4613633,3a,75y,85.99h,89.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk31FIgQp15-ku_aIkOptQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

How long before the ISTHA goes to 'toll by plate' photo tolling by mail like other agencies do with 'no transponder' traffic?

mike

[vdeane]

The fact that they are on a toll road is well signed. How to pay is well signed. It's the driver's responsibility to figure it out from there.

How to pay is signed? Yes. Well signed?  According to some who can't read overhead gantries quickly that say "I-Pass or Pay Online" at EVERY PLAZA now, it's debatable.
I-39/90 South Beloit Plaza: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4514985,-88.994909,3a,15.8y,168.13h,95.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssH_oPlF5C-xg0Qyj4RxMyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

I-94 Waukegan Plaza: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4488879,-87.9590904,3a,75y,165.09h,93.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIeyoLOkk12GjHdG9VtJuYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Now you could make a case that these signs should say at the bottom "NO CASH ACCEPTED". https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8218171,-89.4613633,3a,75y,85.99h,89.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk31FIgQp15-ku_aIkOptQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

The thing is, a lot of agencies that use bill by mail as the default for non-transponder traffic sign their tolls the similarly, so those of us from the East Coast are used to toll agencies crying wolf over that (note that, despite what the sign says, there is no need to call that phone number if you don't have E-ZPass).

[hobsini2]

The fact that they are on a toll road is well signed. How to pay is well signed. It's the driver's responsibility to figure it out from there.

How to pay is signed? Yes. Well signed?  According to some who can't read overhead gantries quickly that say "I-Pass or Pay Online" at EVERY PLAZA now, it's debatable.
I-39/90 South Beloit Plaza: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4514985,-88.994909,3a,15.8y,168.13h,95.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssH_oPlF5C-xg0Qyj4RxMyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

I-94 Waukegan Plaza: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4488879,-87.9590904,3a,75y,165.09h,93.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIeyoLOkk12GjHdG9VtJuYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Now you could make a case that these signs should say at the bottom "NO CASH ACCEPTED". https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8218171,-89.4613633,3a,75y,85.99h,89.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk31FIgQp15-ku_aIkOptQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

How long before the ISTHA goes to 'toll by plate' photo tolling by mail like other agencies do with 'no transponder' traffic?

mike

Good question. The agency just made the switch over to the "stickers" instead of the transponders recently although the transponders still work...for now.

[kphoger]

The reality is that it's fine. Just drive it today and there is plenty of signage.

Enjoy your white privilege, knowing English well enough to understand the sign—which is posted after the toll point—that tells you how to pay your toll.