"See _____" or "Discover _____" signs in Oklahoma

[J N Winkler]

I want to ask about signs of this type:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Blackwell,+OK&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Blackwell,+Kay,+Oklahoma&t=m&vpsrc=0&layer=c&cbll=36.833625,-97.343644&panoid=zlku9S1dGFxTkfYatCnHaA&cbp=12,186.64,,0,13.82&ll=36.83329,-97.34362&spn=0.004319,0.009645&z=17

They are posted before the principal exit giving access to a town and have the following distinguishing features:

*  Blue background

*  Top line of legend is always in a script typeface (not one of the FHWA alphabet series) and says something like "See Blackwell!" or "Discover Blackwell!" (name varies as appropriate)  (StreetView here does not have high resolution, so the sign message can't really be made out; the legend block is the right size for "See Blackwell!" but "Discover Blackwell!" is what I remember from my own trips on I-35 south of Wichita)

*  Bullet-point listing (Series E Modified, at a letter height a bit too small for comfortable reading at 70 MPH) of the types of attractions that can be found in the upcoming city, rather than a specific attraction (e.g., "Oil Baron Mansions" rather than, say, "Marland Mansion")

I have never seen any written policy governing these signs.  I think they are used in northern Oklahoma only, and only on ODOT-maintained freeways, but I am not sure on either point since I suspect that after 50 miles on the Oklahoma side of the state line, I become too habituated to the signing differences to notice them consistently.  (I am quite sure they are posted for Blackwell and Ponca City though, and I think Perry has one as well.)  I have never seen them in contract plans and rather suspect ODOT uses an in-house signing shop for them, rather than putting them out to bid.

Could someone native to Oklahoma (say, Scott5411 or Rte66man) comment in greater depth as to the nature and purpose of these signs?

[kphoger]

I too do not recall seeing these signs south of Guthrie.  It may be that I simply become accustomed to things as I drive south, but then I would probably remember some in the southern part of the state from driving north from Texas.  Some of the 'attractions' are pretty lame; the list is sometimes enough to make me think the town is worth missing.

[J N Winkler]

Kphoger's mention of Texas reminds me--I seem to have created this thread in Mid-South by accident.  Could the moderators relocate it?  Much obliged.

[rte66man]

I want to ask about signs of this type:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Blackwell,+OK&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Blackwell,+Kay,+Oklahoma&t=m&vpsrc=0&layer=c&cbll=36.833625,-97.343644&panoid=zlku9S1dGFxTkfYatCnHaA&cbp=12,186.64,,0,13.82&ll=36.83329,-97.34362&spn=0.004319,0.009645&z=17

They are posted before the principal exit giving access to a town and have the following distinguishing features
<snip>
I have never seen them in contract plans and rather suspect ODOT uses an in-house signing shop for them, rather than putting them out to bid.

Could someone native to Oklahoma (say, Scott5411 or Rte66man) comment in greater depth as to the nature and purpose of these signs?

They are a product indirectly of our current Governor when she was Lt Gov awhile back. As Lt Gov, Mary Fallin was also head of the Tourism Commission. She thought that the towns along the interstates need more publicity so tourists would get off the freeway and spend some dough.  She got Gov Keating's support to get ODOT to put these signs up on all the OK interstates.  They run from Sayre to Sallisaw on I40; Blackwell to Marietta on I35, and Miami to Walters on I44.  As mentioned earlier, they were produced in-house by ODOT's sign shop. 

Once the original signs went up, more towns whined about not getting one (I'm referring to you Sulphur) and their legislators got ODOT to put up one for them as well.  While the original idea may have had merit (as the only towns that got one were ones that had something interesting to see or do), the glut has made them somewhat of a joke here in OK.

One of these days, I will try to put together a comprehensive list of the signs with content so readers can judge for themselves.

rte66man

[kphoger]

Thank you very much for the history!

Sometimes the content is such a joke that I feel like paraphrasing it thusly:

Discover ______!
° A historic building which is usually home to a restaurant, but none stay in business longer than two years
° Birthplace of some random legislator from the 1970s
° Old farts in overalls complaining about the president while slurping coffee in the morning

[bugo]

Most of the signs say "Unique History" or something vaguely generic.  They are pointless.

[Scott5114]

Yeah, they occur statewide. Purcell has one, for instance, which touts that it is the "State Birthplace", whatever that means. Even the larger cities are not immune to having them–Moore has one that notes it is "home of Toby Keith", which is probably more of an ego boost to Moore than it is to Mr. Keith.

They weigh on my consciousness so much that of the 1,408 images in my road photo folder only 2 are of this sort of sign: "See Stroud!" (Main Street USA, Lakes & Golfing), "See Billings!" (Hometown of Henry Bellmon, Gov./U.S. Senator). Both of them are set with the title line in an oblique Dom Casual and the rest in Series EM. I can recall the Moore example using Bell MT for the body text. In both the case of Stroud and Billings, no good case is really given for stopping; "Main Street USA" is nebulous, "Lakes & Golfing" is frustratingly non-specific (what lakes? what golfing? how do I get to it?) and while being the hometown of Governor Bellmon might be a point of local pride it doesn't make it obvious whether there is some kind of museum or something devoted to learning about him (if anyone would even really want to do so; while anyone with a moderate level of knowledge of Oklahoma history might well recognize Governor Bellmon I doubt anyone from other states would).

[mcdonaat]

Not to get off topic, but I-35 looks like a terrible road to drive on.

Nevertheless, I could see that being used in different states where the Interstate has bypassed a U.S. or state route. Maybe even tell a visitor to exit now, with directions to take the bypassed road for 15-20 miles.

[Scott5114]

I think you're overestimating the number of people that would be interested in such a thing. Old US 66, sure, Old US 77, not so much.

Unless you're just meaning "follow the old route through town", in which case that is what the green Interstate business loops are for.

[kphoger]

Not to get off topic, but I-35 looks like a terrible road to drive on.

My only real dislike of Oklahoma I-35 has been the pavement condition, but much of it has already been repaved.  It does bypass most every town along the way except Oklahoma City, so it can feel like there's no civilization other than fast food restaurants and gas stations–even though there are towns spread out all along its route, just a couple of miles from the highway.

I think you're overestimating the number of people that would be interested in such a thing. Old US 66, sure, Old US 77, not so much.

Unless you're just meaning "follow the old route through town", in which case that is what the green Interstate business loops are for.

And, really, the people who would be interested in seeing every little town along the way, maybe stopping at the local shops and museums (if any), would probably rather take US-77 (and 177) the whole way anyway and not bother with the Interstate at all.

[rte66man]

...Unless you're just meaning "follow the old route through town", in which case that is what the green Interstate business loops are for.

I've often wondered why there are ZERO I-35 business loops in OK. There are quite a few on I-40 west of OKC and none east of OKC.  None on I-44 that I'm aware of. 

rte66man

[rte66man]

Thank you very much for the history!

Sometimes the content is such a joke that I feel like paraphrasing it thusly:

Discover ______!
° A historic building which is usually home to a restaurant, but none stay in business longer than two years
° Birthplace of some random legislator from the 1970s
° Old farts in overalls complaining about the president while slurping coffee in the morning

Perfect summary of 99% of the signs.  I exempt Checotah because it's the home of Carrie Underwood

rte66man

[bugo]

...Unless you're just meaning "follow the old route through town", in which case that is what the green Interstate business loops are for.

I've often wondered why there are ZERO I-35 business loops in OK. There are quite a few on I-40 west of OKC and none east of OKC.  None on I-44 that I'm aware of. 

rte66man

There's a BL 40 in Sallisaw.

[agentsteel53]

I exempt Checotah because it's the home of Carrie Underwood

eh, in 20 years, she'll be "some random legislator from the 1970s" in importance.  give me Woody Guthrie any day!

[Scott5114]

...Unless you're just meaning "follow the old route through town", in which case that is what the green Interstate business loops are for.

I've often wondered why there are ZERO I-35 business loops in OK. There are quite a few on I-40 west of OKC and none east of OKC.  None on I-44 that I'm aware of. 

rte66man

Probably because US-77 is still extant and performs that role just fine.

[rte66man]

...Unless you're just meaning "follow the old route through town", in which case that is what the green Interstate business loops are for.

I've often wondered why there are ZERO I-35 business loops in OK. There are quite a few on I-40 west of OKC and none east of OKC.  None on I-44 that I'm aware of. 

rte66man

Probably because US-77 is still extant and performs that role just fine.

Makes sense. Never thouoght of it that way. I40 west is the only non-tolled interstate that doesn't have a roughly parallel US highway.

rte66man

[rte66man]

 

I exempt Checotah because it's the home of Carrie Underwood

eh, in 20 years, she'll be "some random legislator from the 1970s" in importance.  give me Woody Guthrie any day!

Sorry, Woody's music was eons better, but Carrie is MUCH easier on the eyes 

rte66man

[Scott5114]

US-77 serves that role by design. Southern Oklahoma towns along US-77, fearing irrelevance, successfully lobbied the state government, who in turn declared that if I-35 were not built within one mile of US-77 then they would not build it.

[The High Plains Traveler]

...Unless you're just meaning "follow the old route through town", in which case that is what the green Interstate business loops are for.

I've often wondered why there are ZERO I-35 business loops in OK. There are quite a few on I-40 west of OKC and none east of OKC.  None on I-44 that I'm aware of. 

rte66man

Probably because US-77 is still extant and performs that role just fine.

So, U.S. 77 is a series of roads carrying mainly local traffic? I'm not convinced that the towns bypassed by freeways suffer more economically if the old route is designated as an interstate business route versus leaving the old designation.

[Scott5114]

Well, a lot of it has to do with how I-35 was planned/constructed in Oklahoma. In most cases the Interstate was built as a direct upgrade of the old highway, with bypasses around the towns. This leads to a natural setup for a business Interstate route, since you have one road, the old highway, that goes straight through town while the main road curves around it. The I-40 business loops in western OK are a great example of this model, as are some of the I-44 loops in Missouri.

That's not what was done with I-35. Instead, I-35 was built as a straight line one mile to the west of US 77. As a result the whole thing is one big bypass. There is not a set up where the old highway "reunites" with the new on either side of town.* Instead, in most of the towns you might consider to be of the right size to have a business loop, like Pauls Valley or Wynnewood, there is usually a typical cross intersection of US 77 and a state highway, and you access the town by using that state highway. In any event there is usually little reason to do so since most of the businesses set up shop by the Interstate, not downtown.

*Purcell has a setup that would work well with a BUS I-35, but much of it was not all US 77. SH-74 comprises much of the loop, concurrent with US-77 and SH-39 on the south side of town. The far north bit of the loop is not under state maintenance but was once SH-74G. Arguably this whole loop should be BUS I-35, if you feel BUS routes materially help a city out, but if you don't it will probably seem senseless to add yet another highway to the mix.

[The High Plains Traveler]

Well, a lot of it has to do with how I-35 was planned/constructed in Oklahoma. In most cases the Interstate was built as a direct upgrade of the old highway, with bypasses around the towns. This leads to a natural setup for a business Interstate route, since you have one road, the old highway, that goes straight through town while the main road curves around it. The I-40 business loops in western OK are a great example of this model, as are some of the I-44 loops in Missouri.

That's not what was done with I-35. Instead, I-35 was built as a straight line one mile to the west of US 77. As a result the whole thing is one big bypass. There is not a set up where the old highway "reunites" with the new on either side of town.* Instead, in most of the towns you might consider to be of the right size to have a business loop, like Pauls Valley or Wynnewood, there is usually a typical cross intersection of US 77 and a state highway, and you access the town by using that state highway. In any event there is usually little reason to do so since most of the businesses set up shop by the Interstate, not downtown.

*Purcell has a setup that would work well with a BUS I-35, but much of it was not all US 77. SH-74 comprises much of the loop, concurrent with US-77 and SH-39 on the south side of town. The far north bit of the loop is not under state maintenance but was once SH-74G. Arguably this whole loop should be BUS I-35, if you feel BUS routes materially help a city out, but if you don't it will probably seem senseless to add yet another highway to the mix.

This is the typical eastern model, where interstates were built as entities completely separate from the legacy U.S. routes, and the U.S. routes maintained their original designations as if the interstate were never built. In the west, interstates were built on top of the original routes and then as bypasses around towns; thus, there was little justification (beyond nostalgic) for maintaining the U.S. route designations. Especially after California cut off the ends of the original routes, inducing its neighboring states to decommission their old U.S. route designations as well. To maintain the Central States major topic category, I would use Minnesota as an example of a state that chose to eliminate or duplex with the interstates its legacy U.S. routes where they were bypassed by interstates. Nearly all of the original U.S. routings along the alignments of interstates in Minnesota now exist as county routes; still in existence and drivable, but marked and funded as local roads, as the state did not want to maintain two trunk highways in such close proximity. It'd be interesting (as I don't have these data) to compare traffic volumes and destinations (local vs. longer distance) of marked U.S. routes that exist closely parallel to interstates, as in the east and southeast, compared to states that follow the Minnesota model.

[kphoger]

Woody Guthrie

Discover historic Guthrie!
° Victorian architecture
° Historical state capital
° Hometown of Phil Stephenson
° Jake's woody

[agentsteel53]

° Jake's woody

[Scott5114]

Woody Guthrie

Discover historic Guthrie!
° Victorian architecture
° Historical state capital
° Hometown of Phil Stephenson
° Jake's woody

I see you avoided "See Guthrie!" on that one

[rte66man]

US-77 serves that role by design. Southern Oklahoma towns along US-77, fearing irrelevance, successfully lobbied the state government, who in turn declared that if I-35 were not built within one mile of US-77 then they would not build it.

Definitely true. If you look at some early 1950's map, they will show a proposed turnpike running SE from OKC to about Ada, then running due south to Texas. This was pre-Interstate.

rte66man