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TV reception in rural America before cable

Started by bandit957, May 14, 2019, 11:25:10 PM

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Sctvhound

In the Charleston area, we'd get 6 channels on our OTA rabbit ears. NBC (2), ABC (4), CBS (5), PBS (7), Fox (24), UPN/My (36). Depending on where you lived, you could get a couple of LPTVs or an extra PBS on Channel 16 (from Beaufort, about 50 miles SW).

On rabbit ears, I'd get Savannah, Columbia, Jacksonville, Florence/Myrtle Beach, and even Orlando stations on warm summer nights. That was also the way with the Walkman having analog TV. Channel 6 (also 87.7) was interesting. I'd hear Orlando (CBS), Augusta (ABC), or Wilmington, NC (NBC) depending on the day during the summer.

Now I can't even get PBS because their signal is the weakest of all the digital channels.

Rural areas of Williamsburg and Georgetown counties are in the Charleston market because they had good OTA reception of Charleston stations from way back (in the 60s and 70s).


GaryV

Even in smaller urban areas you didn't pick up much.  In Grand Rapids in the early 60's we had the choice of channels 3 (CBS, Kalamazoo) and 8 (NBC, GR).  Those local channels did have a fairly good signal.  In fact, the towers for the two are within 5 or 10 miles of each other in Barry County, or at least they were when I lived there.  Once in a while we'd pick up a fuzzy signal out of Wisconsin, maybe Green Bay.

Channel 13 (ABC, Grand Rapids) started in late 1962.  We didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.


KeithE4Phx

Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PMWe didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.

Commercial stations airing Sesame Street was rather common in areas that didn't yet have their own PBS station.  In Indianapolis, it aired on WLWI/13, the ABC affiliate (now WTHR, the NBC station) from 1969 until WFYI/20 went on the air a year later.  Those at the far south end of the market could get PBS on WTIU/30 in Bloomington beginning in March 1969, but its signal didn't normally make it to most of Indy.
"Oh, so you hate your job? Well, why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called "EVERYBODY!" They meet at the bar." -- Drew Carey

bandit957

We were able to get a couple of PBS stations back then, so we could watch the antics of Big Bird, Oscar the Grouch, Cookie Monster, Bert and Ernie, and the rest of the 'Sesame Street' kick-ass crew on those stations. But Channel 54 came in better than Channel 48 back then, since I lived in Highland Heights.

Now in Bellevue with digital TV, I can't get Channel 54 at all.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

jon daly

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 15, 2019, 07:22:31 PM
Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PMWe didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.

Commercial stations airing Sesame Street was rather common in areas that didn't yet have their own PBS station.  In Indianapolis, it aired on WLWI/13, the ABC affiliate (now WTHR, the NBC station) from 1969 until WFYI/20 went on the air a year later.  Those at the far south end of the market could get PBS on WTIU/30 in Bloomington beginning in March 1969, but its signal didn't normally make it to most of Indy.

This is a great post. I had no idea that was the case, but we had all the network TV we wanted; including access to 2 PBS stations from our hill in Ellington, CT.

michravera

Quote from: bandit957 on May 14, 2019, 11:25:10 PM
Over the years, I've read countless articles about over-the-air broadcasting, but this is something I've never read much about.

Back in the days before cable, did rural areas and small towns have good reception of analog signals? Was the reception snowy at best? Did your area get all the networks, and were they all from the same city? I do remember reading that some areas in eastern Kentucky were among the last places in America to get reliable reception, before a station in Hazard signed on.

I was around before cable was popular, but I lived in an urban area near Cincinnati, so we could get maybe 5 to 7 stations pretty clearly. But when the Cincinnati affiliates preempted network shows (as they often did), we had to watch the Dayton stations, which were very snowy. I had to do this well into the 2000s, because by that time, I didn't have cable anymore, and our cable system didn't have Dayton channels anyway.

My experience was that cable got to rural areas *FIRST*. KTXL Channel 40 in Sacramento (which eventually became a Fox affiliate) would give local weather for much of the intermountain west because of the cable viewing area.

KeithE4Phx

Quote from: jon daly on May 15, 2019, 07:36:41 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 15, 2019, 07:22:31 PM
Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PMWe didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.

Commercial stations airing Sesame Street was rather common in areas that didn't yet have their own PBS station.  In Indianapolis, it aired on WLWI/13, the ABC affiliate (now WTHR, the NBC station) from 1969 until WFYI/20 went on the air a year later.  Those at the far south end of the market could get PBS on WTIU/30 in Bloomington beginning in March 1969, but its signal didn't normally make it to most of Indy.

This is a great post. I had no idea that was the case, but we had all the network TV we wanted; including access to 2 PBS stations from our hill in Ellington, CT.

There are a few TV markets that still don't have their own PBS station:

Bakersfield CA:  IIRC, there's a translator for a station from either Fresno or LA.

Rockford/Freeport IL:  They get PBS from Chicago and/or Madison on cable.  Northern Illinois University in DeKalb had an allocation for Channel 33 back in the analog days, but AFAIK, it was never applied for, and no longer exists.

Terre Haute IN:  Indiana State University had a CP for WISU-TV Channel 26 between about 1966 and 1980, but they never built it.  They get PBS from Vincennes.

Lafayette IN:  Purdue University was a pioneer in both mechanical and electronic TV in the 1930s, but never put their own PBS station on the air.  I believe they get WFYI from Indianapolis, and possibly WILL from Champaign/Urbana.

Yuma AZ/El Centro CA:  I believe there are translators for KAET Phoenix on the Arizona side, and KPBS San Diego on the California side.
"Oh, so you hate your job? Well, why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called "EVERYBODY!" They meet at the bar." -- Drew Carey

1995hoo

We were usually, but not always, able to watch two PBS stations in the old days, WETA-26 (the DC affiliate) and WMPT-22 ("MPT"  stands for "Maryland Public Television" ). Both come over the satellite and nowadays with an antenna we easily get both plus something like three subchannels for each of them, most notably (as I noted in a prior post) WETA UK on Channel 26-2.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

ce929wax

Keith:  I have a digital antenna in a basement. 

KeithE4Phx

Quote from: ce929wax on May 16, 2019, 12:09:47 AM
Keith:  I have a digital antenna in a basement.

1.  There's no such thing as a "digital antenna."  Antennas are antennas.  They pick up RF, and they have to be built properly.  Now, some will work better than others, but that was also true back in the analog days.  For example, rabbit ears and UHF loops are next to useless, but they were next to useless for analog unless one was within 25 miles or so of the TV stations.

2.  Get your antenna up and in the clear.  This was necessary for analog, and even more so for digital.  To work properly, a TV antenna must be above the ground, the higher the better.

Antennas have to be bigger and more directive only because the ATSC 1.0 system is so screwed up.  It doesn't compensate for multipath, and somehow the FCC convinced station managements that lower power would be better.  Power can be cut in half for the same coverage that the analog transmitters had, but no more than that. 
"Oh, so you hate your job? Well, why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called "EVERYBODY!" They meet at the bar." -- Drew Carey

Henry

I could imagine those living near the IL/WI border getting both Chicago and Milwaukee stations, although the Chicago stations would have far better coverage than the Milwaukee ones.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

1995hoo

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 16, 2019, 01:04:01 AM
.... For example, rabbit ears and UHF loops are next to useless ....

.... 

I disagree with this as an absolute statement. If it were qualified to say "in many places" they're next to useless, I couldn't disagree with that, but for the past nine years a $15 pair of RCA rabbit ears with a loop has worked extremely well for us in the master bedroom. I noted earlier that it didn't do too well with the local CBS affiliate, but of the four major networks that's the one we watch the least anyway, especially on that particular TV. Given the TV's location, the program we watch the most is the 11:00 news each night, and we prefer the local NBC affiliate for that. The rabbit ears worked great for that station (and for the FOX affiliate, which carries the 10:00 news if we turn in early). But then, we're about 12—13 miles (straight-line distance) from where those stations originate in suburban Maryland.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2019, 03:08:08 PMWe're leaning towards Vue in large part because we generally liked the interface better than Sling and the package options are a lot easier to decipher. The Vue program guide was a little weird, though–it uses a vertical arrangement instead of the more-conventional horizontal setup. That's relatively minor, though. The bigger issue was that when we watched hockey via Sling, the picture felt a bit choppy, for lack of a better word; my wife said it felt "mechanical" because when the puck was passed over a longer distance and the camera panned quickly, it felt like the broadcast couldn't keep up. I noticed during a British soccer game, I think a Spurs game, that the Sling picture was grainy enough that it was hard to see jersey numbers.

We dropped DBS satellite for Vue over a year ago.  A neighbor's trees had grown to the point that we couldn't see the birds with HDTV signals any more, and our CATV strength is just barely sufficient to support a reliable internet connection so I couldn't risk losing decent internet (I telecommute) by having them split the signal.

Picture quality is great if you have a decent internet connection.  The biggest downside to Vue is that there are questions about the service's longevity.  We went with Vue because the "DVR" functionality was closest to what my wife was used to / wanted.

I do not look forward to what might happen if Sony gives up on Vue.

1995hoo

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 16, 2019, 11:43:56 AM
....  The biggest downside to Vue is that there are questions about the service's longevity.  We went with Vue because the "DVR" functionality was closest to what my wife was used to / wanted.

I do not look forward to what might happen if Sony gives up on Vue.

To some degree, I feel that's true of almost any of the streaming services. I guess that's where the website I recommended earlier comes in to help find other options. We intend to leave our DirecTV dish in place in case we want or need to go back in the future, although I'm also concerned about a tree next door. I already moved the dish up to a higher roof level because the tree had gotten bigger, but there's nowhere higher left to go. The tenant there is moving out next week and I may suggest to his successor that she needs to trim the tree because it's too close to the house anyway (I've seen squirrels jumping from one of the branches to the roof over there; while I like squirrels, I don't like seeing them on the roofs).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Life in Paradise

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 16, 2019, 01:04:01 AM
Quote from: ce929wax on May 16, 2019, 12:09:47 AM
Keith:  I have a digital antenna in a basement.

1.  There's no such thing as a "digital antenna."  Antennas are antennas.  They pick up RF, and they have to be built properly.  Now, some will work better than others, but that was also true back in the analog days.  For example, rabbit ears and UHF loops are next to useless, but they were next to useless for analog unless one was within 25 miles or so of the TV stations.

2.  Get your antenna up and in the clear.  This was necessary for analog, and even more so for digital.  To work properly, a TV antenna must be above the ground, the higher the better.

Antennas have to be bigger and more directive only because the ATSC 1.0 system is so screwed up.  It doesn't compensate for multipath, and somehow the FCC convinced station managements that lower power would be better.  Power can be cut in half for the same coverage that the analog transmitters had, but no more than that.

He is exactly right.  When television stations were mandated to go digital, that cut the bandwidth down for the signal (which is why you have multiple channels with most digital signals), but also reduced the power.  You do not have the range that you once had.

When I was growing up, we were near Evansville, IN (30 miles away).  We were up on a hill with a tower, rotor, and a real bad-ass antenna.  I could easily pull in Terre Haute (75 miles) clear, half of the Louisville, KY stations (100 miles), and on good days watch Indianapolis and Bloomington (140 and 110 miles respectively).  I miss some of those days, especially the fact that there were quite a few less commercials.

kphoger

Quote from: Life in Paradise on May 16, 2019, 12:20:49 PM
When television stations were mandated to go digital, that cut the bandwidth down for the signal

FYI, some of that bandwidth was later reallocated to internet service leading up to the launch of DOCSIS 3.1.  This can actually cause internet service interruption, as it did at my house.  Back before things went all-digital, the way our ISP trapped out video service for internet-only customers (or phone-only or a combination of the two) was to install a signal filter at either the tap or the point of demarcation.  That device would trap out all frequencies allocated to video services.  Back when we first dropped video service from our account, a tech installed such a trap at the pole out back of the house.  Fast-forward several years, and I got a modem with 24 downstream channels.  Unbeknownst to me, four of those channels (specifically the ones between 357 and 435 MHz) were being trapped because they used to be for video signal but are now for internet signal.  Customers with 32-channel modems ended up with 12 of those channels trapped out.  The issue there is that data packets were being sent from the head-end on those channel frequencies but not being received by the modem, resulting in a loss of connectivity.  Our internet connection kept going in and out, even with a brand-new line and a brand-new modem.  Having someone remove the trap from the pole got rid of that problem.  (Fixing service issues is easier and cheaper when you work for the cable company.)
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

doorknob60

When I was growing up (like, late 90s and early 2000s), my family (as in, aunt, uncle, etc., not where I lived) in rural Trout Lake, WA used an antenna for TV. I think they only got two channels, CBS (KOIN) and I think ABC (KATU). They switched to Dish sometime in the mid 2000s, I believe the translators were all shut off. Wikipedia specifically says that KOIN discontinued their translator in Trout Lake, and I can't find anything about any other stations. This was well before the switch to digital.

Cable is still not an option there, and internet is all CenturyLink DSL, not very good for streaming (though it works if not too many people are using it at once). Pretty much everyone there has Dish or DirecTV. Even cell service is limited, with US Cellular being the only provider with 4G LTE. AT&T has 3G HSPA which works pretty well (fast enough for video streaming, etc.). The other providers either have no service at all, or roaming on one of the other two.

slorydn1

#42
Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Even in smaller urban areas you didn't pick up much.  In Grand Rapids in the early 60's we had the choice of channels 3 (CBS, Kalamazoo) and 8 (NBC, GR).  Those local channels did have a fairly good signal.  In fact, the towers for the two are within 5 or 10 miles of each other in Barry County, or at least they were when I lived there.  Once in a while we'd pick up a fuzzy signal out of Wisconsin, maybe Green Bay.

Channel 13 (ABC, Grand Rapids) started in late 1962.  We didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.



Yes, this. I too lived in the Grand Rapids area (Georgetown Township in Ottawa County) in the 1970's and I watched Sesame Street, Mister Rogers Neighborhood, The Electric Company, and Zoom on a daily basis in the early 1970's (I didn't start school until 1974). I really want to say I watched those shows in the mornings on a UHF station because I distinctly remember having to tune the bottom knob on our new fangled Toshiba color TV after turning the top knob to U in order to watch them. The channel number completely escapes me however.

I didn't live in an area that had its own PBS station until 1979 when I moved to the NW suburbs of Chicago (WTTW Channel 11) and by then I was too old I had graduated to shows like Speed Racer and Ultra Man by then, lol.

Fun fact. One of WOOD Channel 8's meteorologists Ellen Baca worked here in New Bern on WCTI Channel 12 before going back home to Michigan to be on 8.
Please Note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of any governmental agency, non-governmental agency, quasi-governmental agency or wanna be governmental agency

Counties: Counties Visited

D-Dey65

#43
In Medford, New York, it was usually CBS (2), NBC (4), WNEW (5), ABC (7, and 8), WOR, later WWOR (9, first in NYC then Secaucus), WPIX (11), and the following PBS affiliates; WNET (13), WLIW (21). Occasionally, we'd also get stations on the New Jersey Network. There were also some low-powered UHF stations like WSNL-TV (67).


I personally used to get more TV signals than the rest of my family from outside of the New York Tri-State area, and it was hooked up to the same antenna.

UPDATE; August 18, 2019: I don't know why I said Newark, when WOR moved to Secaucus.

KEVIN_224

Did you ever receive channel 43 and 49 from Bridgeport, CT or channel 20 from Waterbury?

michravera

Quote from: bandit957 on May 14, 2019, 11:25:10 PM
Over the years, I've read countless articles about over-the-air broadcasting, but this is something I've never read much about.

Back in the days before cable, did rural areas and small towns have good reception of analog signals? Was the reception snowy at best? Did your area get all the networks, and were they all from the same city? I do remember reading that some areas in eastern Kentucky were among the last places in America to get reliable reception, before a station in Hazard signed on.

I was around before cable was popular, but I lived in an urban area near Cincinnati, so we could get maybe 5 to 7 stations pretty clearly. But when the Cincinnati affiliates preempted network shows (as they often did), we had to watch the Dayton stations, which were very snowy. I had to do this well into the 2000s, because by that time, I didn't have cable anymore, and our cable system didn't have Dayton channels anyway.

With a rooftop antenna in "rural" Sacramento county, my grandparents were able to get pretty much a full set of the VHF channels in 1967. TV Guides and newspaper TV listings in our area often had to distinguish VHF channels of the same number from various cities (channels 3 and 7 were duplicated by channels to our north within the "maybe" distance and certainly within the circulation distance of the newspapers as well as 4 in Reno which duplicated San Francisco and 8 which was duplicated in Salinas and Reno).

At a mountain cabin near Lake Tahoe at which my family stayed in 1968, without cable, we were only reliably able to get one station, KOLO 8 from Reno. I don't know, if 4 wasn't broadcasting at the time or just didn't have sufficient signal or the right kind of tower to be received where we were.

westerninterloper

Quote from: Life in Paradise on May 16, 2019, 12:20:49 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 16, 2019, 01:04:01 AM
Quote from: ce929wax on May 16, 2019, 12:09:47 AM
Keith:  I have a digital antenna in a basement.

1.  There's no such thing as a "digital antenna."  Antennas are antennas.  They pick up RF, and they have to be built properly.  Now, some will work better than others, but that was also true back in the analog days.  For example, rabbit ears and UHF loops are next to useless, but they were next to useless for analog unless one was within 25 miles or so of the TV stations.

2.  Get your antenna up and in the clear.  This was necessary for analog, and even more so for digital.  To work properly, a TV antenna must be above the ground, the higher the better.

Antennas have to be bigger and more directive only because the ATSC 1.0 system is so screwed up.  It doesn't compensate for multipath, and somehow the FCC convinced station managements that lower power would be better.  Power can be cut in half for the same coverage that the analog transmitters had, but no more than that.

He is exactly right.  When television stations were mandated to go digital, that cut the bandwidth down for the signal (which is why you have multiple channels with most digital signals), but also reduced the power.  You do not have the range that you once had.

When I was growing up, we were near Evansville, IN (30 miles away).  We were up on a hill with a tower, rotor, and a real bad-ass antenna.  I could easily pull in Terre Haute (75 miles) clear, half of the Louisville, KY stations (100 miles), and on good days watch Indianapolis and Bloomington (140 and 110 miles respectively).  I miss some of those days, especially the fact that there were quite a few less commercials.

I grew up between TH and Evansville, and local stations were clear, and we could also pull in stations from about 100 miles away, often snowy, from Indianapolis, Lafayette, Bloomington, Evansville, Champaign, Olney and Decatur.
Nostalgia: Indiana's State Religion

ftballfan

Quote from: slorydn1 on May 17, 2019, 05:28:44 AM
Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Even in smaller urban areas you didn't pick up much.  In Grand Rapids in the early 60's we had the choice of channels 3 (CBS, Kalamazoo) and 8 (NBC, GR).  Those local channels did have a fairly good signal.  In fact, the towers for the two are within 5 or 10 miles of each other in Barry County, or at least they were when I lived there.  Once in a while we'd pick up a fuzzy signal out of Wisconsin, maybe Green Bay.

Channel 13 (ABC, Grand Rapids) started in late 1962.  We didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.



Yes, this. I too lived in the Grand Rapids area (Georgetown Township in Ottawa County) in the 1970's and I watched Sesame Street, Mister Rogers Neighborhood, The Electric Company, and Zoom on a daily basis in the early 1970's (I didn't start school until 1974). I really want to say I watched those shows in the mornings on a UHF station because I distinctly remember having to tune the bottom knob on our new fangled Toshiba color TV after turning the top knob to U in order to watch them. The channel number completely escapes me however.

I didn't live in an area that had its own PBS station until 1979 when I moved to the NW suburbs of Chicago (WTTW Channel 11) and by then I was too old I had graduated to shows like Speed Racer and Ultra Man by then, lol.

Fun fact. One of WOOD Channel 8's meteorologists Ellen Baca worked here in New Bern on WCTI Channel 12 before going back home to Michigan to be on 8.
According to Wikipedia, WGVU signed on in 1972 (as WGVC) on channel 35.

Back on topic, my great-grandma had an old external antenna on her rooftop that had a broken rotor (however, it was facing the direction of all the locals). From near Onekama, MI, she was able to get the following:
WPBN (7, NBC)
WWTV (9, CBS)
WCMW (21, PBS)
WCMV (27, PBS)
WGTU (29, ABC)
WGKI/WFQX (33, FOX) - this was the station it was aimed toward as my family used to go to her house every Sunday after church and they had the Lions on, but they were flea power at the time (around the time of WGKI becoming WFQX, they upped analog power dramatically)

I also remember getting several other stations:
ABC on Channel 3 airing the Indy 500 (either KTBS or KATC)
WDIV (4, NBC) [Detroit]
W22BW (22, NBC) [Sturgeon Bay WI, off the back]
WGBA (26, NBC) [Green Bay WI, off the back]
WPNE (38, PBS) [Green Bay WI, off the back]

I also remember watching part of a football game on KCNC, but I'm not sure whether it was E-skip or via one of the Denver Six being unscrambled by accident.

Also in the analog days, audio from WITI (Milwaukee) would show up occasionally on 87.7 on radios.

D-Dey65

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on May 17, 2019, 08:56:26 AM
Did you ever receive channel 43 and 49 from Bridgeport, CT or channel 20 from Waterbury?
20 I remember. I knew there were PBS stations in Bridgeport. In fact I discovered Barney the Dinosaur being broadcasted from there in the place of those 15 minute educational shorts that some of those stations used to run. For years after that I thought Barney started out in Bridgeport. WTXX Channel 20 used to have these morning kids show character host puppet named "TX" with a female human counterpart who I thought was kind of cute. I also discovered they were showing "The World of Henry Orient" one night, and it became one of my favorite 1960's movies.


bandit957

I remember a few local stations had a "kids' club" that accompanied cartoons and such. The "kids' club" had live grownup hosts (not cartoons). I remember one on Channel 64 that had a woman who always chewed bubble gum (but she didn't bubble).
Might as well face it, pooing is cool



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