Louisiana closes I-49 way too soon in cold weather. Last month there was a forecast of sleet and they closed it from I-220 to the state line southbound. They detoured the traffic at the first suitable Northbound exit in Louisiana (Mira - Myrtis Road... Caddo Parish 16.) From there all of the traffic is routed on US-71 which is two lane and terrible. Last month it didn't sleet. Fact of business it was 31 degrees and clear overnight. They DID at least open it EARLY the next morning.
Tonight, they did it again. It MAY sleet tonight. It did rain some today and there Might be some ice in the morning. Last year, they didn't close it a single time. The year before, they kept it closed for nearly a week once and a day or two a different time. There May have been justification for a day MAYBE two of the week and one of the other times there was icing. Arkansas NEVER closed their stretch. With the exception of one day year-before last, the traffic went its regular 75+ mph southbound until Mira-Myrtis Rd then slogged at 45 behind the trucks that were overly cautious for the traffic not the weather. The roads were dry except for the chuckholes and they were several.
I guess the point is there has never been a significant multi-car weather related wreck on this stretch and Louisiana isn't going to give it a chance to happen. As far as that goes, if the road does get icy, it may be as much because there isn't traffic to keep it clear as it is that would ice and be too slick for traffic. what they should be doing is monitoring the Interstate and when it begins to become hazardous then close it, not close it as a prophylactic measure before the weather even comes, much less the roads becoming less than stellar.
I might give one caveat, the I-220 intersection MIGHT merit early closure. That would be as simple as forcing the traffic to exit Southbound at North Market and Closing the I-220 and MLK Exits from / to I-49 and allowing Northbound traffic onto the freeway at North Market. This was the route before the I-220 intersection was opened.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12856.msg311424#msg311424 (This thread is all about this stretch.)
I-49 from I-20 to Bert Kouns has problems with pileups when it is dry. Perhaps it should close a little early, but not as soon as it currently does.
There have been some MAJOR pileups on I-49 between Shreveport and Natchitoches. This is the root of the problem. Initially they left I-49 South open until it closed itself. This led to real problems.
Their reaction was to over react. SO now it will never see a patch of ice when it is open because it will close with the temp in the mid-thirties and completely dry, just because someone in the weather business say it COULD be 28 with precip.
Quote from: bwana39 on February 11, 2021, 11:52:42 PM
Their reaction was to over react. SO now it will never see a patch of ice when it is open because it will close with the temp in the mid-thirties and completely dry, just because someone in the weather business say it COULD be 28 with precip.
Never hurts to be cautious when the same storm just caused a 100-car pileup in Fort Worth with at least 6 fatalities...
Quote from: US 89 on February 12, 2021, 01:14:27 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on February 11, 2021, 11:52:42 PM
Their reaction was to over react. SO now it will never see a patch of ice when it is open because it will close with the temp in the mid-thirties and completely dry, just because someone in the weather business say it COULD be 28 with precip.
Never hurts to be cautious when the same storm just caused a 100-car pileup in Fort Worth with at least 6 fatalities...
Yea but........,
There is a difference in erring toward caution and ridiculous. The night it was closed several weeks ago, it was dry and never got below 31. Yesterday in Fort Worth it was 23F to 27F at 6:00 AM. It had rained and freezing fog. Big difference in closing it at the first sign of icing and
closing it for a weather forecast that fails to even start to materialize.
What is even more frightful was all the people with their cell phones/dash cams in the opposing lanes recording the entire thing. One semi literally climbed over the top and landed.
(https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/02/NINTCHDBPICT000635716828.jpg)
I do get what you are saying, BUT I-49 is 3-hours away from Fort Worth. Would you close the freeways in Baltimore because weather impacted traffic in New York City? The distance is similar.
It MIGHT blow down there...
On a less argumentative note, they did open it soon after daylight this morning. The process has improved over the past couple of years. Year before last, they closed it as soon as the snow / sleet / ice fell and kept it closed until all of the snow melted from the embankments.
Quote from: bwana39 on February 12, 2021, 01:18:20 PM
I do get what you are saying, BUT I-49 is 3-hours away from Fort Worth. Would you close the freeways in Baltimore because weather impacted traffic in New York City? The distance is similar.
It MIGHT blow down there...
On a less argumentative note, they did open it soon after daylight this morning. The process has improved over the past couple of years. Year before last, they closed it as soon as the snow / sleet / ice fell and kept it closed until all of the snow melted from the embankments.
Shreveport is primarily east of DFW. Baltimore is mostly south and slightly
west of NYC, a direction storms don't travel. (Baltimore drivers also know how to drive in snowy and icy conditions.)
I'm from Louisiana and I don't really understand why they close this section either. It's not elevated other than a couple of overpasses at exits. Anything is safer than the 2 lane US 71.
The other closures that happen as soon as there is precipitation near 32 degrees? Absolutely - I-49 through Shreveport and further south through the city of Alexandria. Completely elevated and the first to freeze.
iPhone
Quote from: bassoon1986 on February 13, 2021, 12:01:46 AM
I'm from Louisiana and I don't really understand why they close this section either. It's not elevated other than a couple of overpasses at exits. Anything is safer than the 2 lane US 71.
The other closures that happen as soon as there is precipitation near 32 degrees? Absolutely - I-49 through Shreveport and further south through the city of Alexandria. Completely elevated and the first to freeze. iPhone
The entire length of I-220 is routinely closed also and has been since it was first opened. They just extended the same policy to I-49. They have permanently pre-stationed barrels and barricades at all of the I-220 entrance ramps.
Way cheaper to throw up barrels than spread salt.
Quote from: bwana39I do get what you are saying, BUT I-49 is 3-hours away from Fort Worth. Would you close the freeways in Baltimore because weather impacted traffic in New York City? The distance is similar.
Depending on the weather system both the DFW area and Shreveport can be affected by the same adverse weather system at the same time. It's very common for something like an upper level high pressure system to be big enough to completely cover half a dozen states. It's also common for a storm front trailing from a low pressure system to span more than 1000 miles.
Maybe the folks in Louisiana might be jumping the gun on closing highways. But I think it's a bit better to inconvenience drivers by shutting down a road in advance of hazardous weather instead of waiting for car crashes, possibly
fatal, life-ending car crashes, before deciding whether or not to take action.
Quote from: 1Shreveport is primarily east of DFW. Baltimore is mostly south and slightly west of NYC, a direction storms don't travel. (Baltimore drivers also know how to drive in snowy and icy conditions.)
Y'know, I'm just going to put this out there that
every part of the US has LOTS of drivers who do not know how to drive for hazardous conditions, or better yet they chose not to drive with caution. Every region has them. Maybe Northern states do have
a greater number of motorists who know to be careful when driving in snowy or icy conditions. Nevertheless, there have been plenty of noteworthy pile-ups that have taken place in far North states due to snowy or icy conditions.
Here's a news story from 2/26/19 about a 131 car pileup on I-41 in Wisconsin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3pt80l0NYU193 vehicle pile-up in Michigan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zms_9Y6mk8Big pile-up in Wyoming:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxlvxvG8zOEAnother from Wisconsin in 2013:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kj6f2iSkrIThere's plenty of these kinds of videos and news stories of other similar pile-ups. Yeah, I would agree with anyone that drivers in the South can get pretty stupid with driving decisions when it gets icy. But the evidence is clear that stupidity is not unique to just drivers in the South.
As noted above, the very first road that closes when the threat of winter precipitation is announced is the entire length of I-220. This has been step #1 as long as I can remember in 47 years of living.
Step #2 has always been to close I-49 from I-20 to the Bert Kouns Ind Loop exit (#199) because it's elevated highway.
I-49 north of Shreveport has been step #3 in road closings ever since it was built & opened to traffic a few years ago. Why? The only guess I have is they want to focus all resources on keeping I-20 flowing (more traffic vs I-49).
But right now (6 a.m. on 2/15/21), LaDOTD has deemed all state maintained roads in the NW region of the state as "impassable, except for open segments of I-20 & I-49." In the Monroe/West Monroe area (NE region for those not familiar with this area), I have been receiving notices every 5-10 minutes of ramps being closed along the elevated portion of I-20 over the Ouachita River. Once DOTD loses the Ouachita River Bridge due to wrecks & traffic snarls, it's game over for traffic moving through North Louisiana.
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:09:46 AM
As noted above, the very first road that closes when the threat of winter precipitation is announced is the entire length of I-220. This has been step #1 as long as I can remember in 47 years of living.
Step #2 has always been to close I-49 from I-20 to the Bert Kouns Ind Loop exit (#199) because it's elevated highway.
I-49 north of Shreveport has been step #3 in road closings ever since it was built & opened to traffic a few years ago. Why? The only guess I have is they want to focus all resources on keeping I-20 flowing (more traffic vs I-49).
But right now (6 a.m. on 2/15/21), LaDOTD has deemed all state maintained roads in the NW region of the state as "impassable, except for open segments of I-20 & I-49." In the Monroe/West Monroe area (NE region for those not familiar with this area), I have been receiving notices every 5-10 minutes of ramps being closed along the elevated portion of I-20 over the Ouachita River. Once DOTD loses the Ouachita River Bridge due to wrecks & traffic snarls, it's game over for traffic moving through North Louisiana.
I've never understood why they close 220 and the rural parts of 49, but that makes sense that they would want to focus resources on I-20. As for the Ouachita River Bridge, it seemed fine when I was on it last night, but that was before all the snow came down early this morning and there was only some ice on the bridge. If they do have to close it, that would be a nightmare for anyone having to pass through, especially since the Endom Bridge and N 18th overpass are some of the first to close in the area if there's a chance of winter weather. The only bridge over the Ouachita left open in the area would then be the Joyner Bridge, which is extremely narrow anyway and had no visible lane markings last night (again, before most of the snowfall).
Quote from: debragga on February 15, 2021, 06:57:10 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:09:46 AM
As noted above, the very first road that closes when the threat of winter precipitation is announced is the entire length of I-220. This has been step #1 as long as I can remember in 47 years of living.
Step #2 has always been to close I-49 from I-20 to the Bert Kouns Ind Loop exit (#199) because it's elevated highway.
I-49 north of Shreveport has been step #3 in road closings ever since it was built & opened to traffic a few years ago. Why? The only guess I have is they want to focus all resources on keeping I-20 flowing (more traffic vs I-49).
But right now (6 a.m. on 2/15/21), LaDOTD has deemed all state maintained roads in the NW region of the state as "impassable, except for open segments of I-20 & I-49." In the Monroe/West Monroe area (NE region for those not familiar with this area), I have been receiving notices every 5-10 minutes of ramps being closed along the elevated portion of I-20 over the Ouachita River. Once DOTD loses the Ouachita River Bridge due to wrecks & traffic snarls, it's game over for traffic moving through North Louisiana.
I've never understood why they close 220 and the rural parts of 49, but that makes sense that they would want to focus resources on I-20. As for the Ouachita River Bridge, it seemed fine when I was on it last night, but that was before all the snow came down early this morning and there was only some ice on the bridge. If they do have to close it, that would be a nightmare for anyone having to pass through, especially since the Endom Bridge and N 18th overpass are some of the first to close in the area if there's a chance of winter weather. The only bridge over the Ouachita left open in the area would then be the Joyner Bridge, which is extremely narrow anyway and had no visible lane markings last night (again, before most of the snowfall).
I-220 has the widest and deepest median in the area. Imagine hundreds of cars sliding off in there....I don't think there are enough tow truck with cables long enough to reach down in there.
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.
They drink surface water in NE Louisiana? Gross. Surely they have some decent aquifers underneath them. It is not an arid place, nor is the population so large as to overwhelm natural groundwater recharge. I really hope that's wrong about Cross Lake.
Yes, I -49 runs right over the top of Shreveport's primary water source.
Right now, LOTD SHOULD have most of the roads in NWLA closed. I-49 SHOULD be closed.
I will disagree with the order. I-49 since it has been opened north has ALWAYS been the first to close. I-49 from I-20 to Bert Kouns and I-220 generally closed about the same time as I-49 until last year. Starting last year, they would close I-49 north the night before forecasted weather conditions. I-220 would remain open until it the conditions start to deteriorate. Until this week, I-220 has not been closed this year.
MY point is that they close I-49 BEFORE the weather even gets there and historically leave it closed after the roads are clear. You drive from Texarkana to Mira Myrtis Road at 75 with no snow, no icy bridges, etc.
The two times they closed it this year before this week they opened it promptly the next morning. They have improved their process,
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2021, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.
They drink surface water in NE Louisiana? Gross. Surely they have some decent aquifers underneath them. It is not an arid place, nor is the population so large as to overwhelm natural groundwater recharge. I really hope that's wrong about Cross Lake.
The area does have an underground water supply called the Sparta Aquifer. Shreveport would be a major drain on it if not for Cross Lake..
Btw...Shreveport's back up water supply when Cross Lake gets too low: 12-mile Bayou.
Quote from: bwana39 on February 16, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Yes, I -49 runs right over the top of Shreveport's primary water source.
Right now, LOTD SHOULD have most of the roads in NWLA closed. I-49 SHOULD be closed.
I will disagree with the order. I-49 since it has been opened north has ALWAYS been the first to close. I-49 from I-20 to Bert Kouns and I-220 generally closed about the same time as I-49 until last year. Starting last year, they would close I-49 north the night before forecasted weather conditions. I-220 would remain open until it the conditions start to deteriorate. Until this week, I-220 has not been closed this year.
MY point is that they close I-49 BEFORE the weather even gets there and historically leave it closed after the roads are clear. You drive from Texarkana to Mira Myrtis Road at 75 with no snow, no icy bridges, etc.
The two times they closed it this year before this week they opened it promptly the next morning. They have improved their process,
Isn't Cross Lake the primary drinking water source for the Shreveport-Bossier City area? If so, than it's I-220, not I-49, that is the culprit that passes through.
Once the Inner City Connector segment is finished on I-49 through central Shreveport, that will mean less traffic over I-220, and Cross Lake will be less likely to be contaminated.
Quote from: bwana39 on February 16, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Until this week, I-220 has not been closed this year.
I-220 was closed on January 10th because of winter weather: https://twitter.com/Shreveport_Traf/status/1348413686185127942
Quote from: Anthony_JK on February 16, 2021, 03:02:59 PM
Once the Inner City Connector segment is finished on I-49 through central Shreveport, that will mean less traffic over I-220, and Cross Lake will be less likely to be contaminated.
It will also be one of the very first roads closed when there is a threat of a snowflake or ice pellet.
Quote from: edwaleni on February 12, 2021, 09:45:00 AM
What is even more frightful was all the people with their cell phones/dash cams in the opposing lanes recording the entire thing. One semi literally climbed over the top and landed.
(https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/02/NINTCHDBPICT000635716828.jpg)
Holy shiitake, this is some serious trouble. 😳
Quote from: debragga on February 16, 2021, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on February 16, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Until this week, I-220 has not been closed this year.
I-220 was closed on January 10th because of winter weather: https://twitter.com/Shreveport_Traf/status/1348413686185127942
Mea culpa and I didn't go to the office the next day. Tuesday it was business as usual.
The point is not times when it actually snowed likel the 10 th and 11th of January and this week. It is times when they close I-49 before the first drop of precipitation falls.
At least once this year, I took I-220 to US-71 and exited there because I-49 was closed.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2021, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.
They drink surface water in NE Louisiana? Gross. Surely they have some decent aquifers underneath them. It is not an arid place, nor is the population so large as to overwhelm natural groundwater recharge. I really hope that's wrong about Cross Lake.
Ever have tap water in New Orleans?
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 14, 2021, 02:46:31 AM
Quote from: 1Shreveport is primarily east of DFW. Baltimore is mostly south and slightly west of NYC, a direction storms don't travel. (Baltimore drivers also know how to drive in snowy and icy conditions.)
Y'know, I'm just going to put this out there that every part of the US has LOTS of drivers who do not know how to drive for hazardous conditions, or better yet they chose not to drive with caution. Every region has them. Maybe Northern states do have a greater number of motorists who know to be careful when driving in snowy or icy conditions. Nevertheless, there have been plenty of noteworthy pile-ups that have taken place in far North states due to snowy or icy conditions.
...
There's plenty of these kinds of videos and news stories of other similar pile-ups. Yeah, I would agree with anyone that drivers in the South can get pretty stupid with driving decisions when it gets icy. But the evidence is clear that stupidity is not unique to just drivers in the South.
Drivers being unfamiliar with winter weather is part of it, but the systems being inadequate to handle the weather is also a significant problem. Roadways in the north would have been salted/sanded prior to the storm, and would certainly never be closed because a few inches of snow. A few inches of snow that falls overnight would almost always be cleared by morning to provide commuters with mostly clear roads.
In other words, the weather conditions of the other pileups you linked to were much, much worse and more dangerous than the conditions in the Fort Worth crash. Fort Worth just isn't used to winter maintenance, so they handled it ineptly, and that makes a bad situation even worse for the drivers in the area who aren't used to, or expecting, the poor conditions.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 16, 2021, 10:14:11 PM
Ever have tap water in New Orleans?
Sad to say I haven't. I still have to someday set foot in Louisiana, much less it's coolest city. ;)
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 16, 2021, 10:14:11 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2021, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.
They drink surface water in NE Louisiana? Gross. Surely they have some decent aquifers underneath them. It is not an arid place, nor is the population so large as to overwhelm natural groundwater recharge. I really hope that's wrong about Cross Lake.
Ever have tap water in New Orleans?
No.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 16, 2021, 10:14:11 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2021, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.
They drink surface water in NE Louisiana? Gross. Surely they have some decent aquifers underneath them. It is not an arid place, nor is the population so large as to overwhelm natural groundwater recharge. I really hope that's wrong about Cross Lake.
Ever have tap water in New Orleans?
Yes.
What's strange about a city's drinking water coming from a lake? Wichita's water comes from Cheney Lake. When I lived in southern Illinois, the drinking water came from Rend Lake. Isn't this completely normal?
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 10:47:11 AM
What's strange about a city's drinking water coming from a lake? Wichita's water comes from Cheney Lake. When I lived in southern Illinois, the drinking water came from Rend Lake. Isn't this completely normal?
Ours come from a river, specifically the Cape Fear.
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 10:47:11 AM
What's strange about a city's drinking water coming from a lake? Wichita's water comes from Cheney Lake. When I lived in southern Illinois, the drinking water came from Rend Lake. Isn't this completely normal?
It is. Northwest Arkansas gets there's from Beaver Lake. Not unusual for scuba divers to play around the dam. Some lakes are cleaner than others, I guess, but almost every source needs treatment in pretty much any municiple water system, whether it comes from the ground or surface. Only different is how much treatment is required to clean it to potable standards.
Here in Lawton we get most of our water supply from Lake Lawtonka to the North of Lawton and Fort Sill. We also pump some water up from Waurika Lake. Much of the Dallas-Fort Worth metro gets its water from various lakes in the region, including Lake Texoma. The DFW metro's water demands are so bad that they've taken to filing law suits against cities in Oklahoma trying to claim their water supply, using the rationale that if any source of water can empty into the Red River that water source belongs to them. So they're trying to get dibs on Waurika Lake. Crazy.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 17, 2021, 07:00:53 PM
Here in Lawton we get most of our water supply from Lake Lawtonka to the North of Lawton and Fort Sill. We also pump some water up from Waurika Lake. Much of the Dallas-Fort Worth metro gets its water from various lakes in the region, including Lake Texoma. The DFW metro's water demands are so bad that they've taken to filing law suits against cities in Oklahoma trying to claim their water supply, using the rationale that if any source of water can empty into the Red River that water source belongs to them. So they're trying to get dibs on Waurika Lake. Crazy.
I want to defend Texas. The suits were filed because the Oklahoma Attorney General voided agreements between NTMWD and cities in Oklahoma who were willing to lease water rights. These leases were just short term and conveyed no rights beyond year to year contracts. If you don't need it, can we have it? If you need it, you can get it and NTMWD would have no claim.
I most cases these water contracts were just to capture the water before it reached the Red River or Lake Texoma. It was water that was in large part already available to them once it reached Texoma. The water in Texoma has a moderately high salinity content and the water in the Washita before it enters Texoma has negligible salinity.
This takes us back to Cross Lake. There is more than enough water in the Red River to fulfill the needs of Shreveport it is just of too low a quality to use.
Most of Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas use surface water. Some of it is really gross. But even if the quantity in the aquifers were to be sufficient, the taste and quality might be as bad or worse than surface (lake) water
I tend to associate surface water use as a drinking water supply with either arid regions or areas of extremely high population. (Or also, areas of very shallow, granitic bedrock.) I'm so used to the Great Lakes region where all municipal drinking water is ground water except for cities on the Great Lakes themselves. I figured a place like Shreveport which sits on top of thousands of feet of sedimentary layers and in a wet climate would have plenty of groundwater at their finger tips. But I guess not. Must be too much oil. :P
Off topic, obviously, but most of Denver's comes from Lake Dillon.
Chris
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 22, 2021, 02:36:25 PM
I'm so used to the Great Lakes region where all municipal drinking water is ground water except for cities on the Great Lakes themselves.
Not hardly. Inland cities have pipelines running to the Lakes, for example Grand Rapids and Wyoming both have pipes to Lake Michigan. Flint was using water from the Detroit system and was going to change to a new pipeline from Lake Huron. The Detroit system covers over 1000 square miles and supplies water to more than 40% of Michigan's population.
Where the Great Lakes watershed line is very close to the lakes themselves - like in Wisconsin and in the Cleveland area - the pipelines are shorter, because of the agreement between the states and Ontario that no water can be shipped out of the basin.
This morning Texarkana had it's first frost of the year. (Very LIGHT). Shreveport is still a cold snap off probably.
The barrels to close I-49 (and I-220) were put out last week (The first of November.) Forget the first potential ice or snow.....
They will close it when the traffic between Texarkana and Mira Myrtis Road cruises to a 75 Mph stop and then gets to slog through a wet, narrow, but not icy US-71 between 30 and 55 mph
Quote from: bwana39 on November 05, 2021, 04:57:15 PM
This morning Texarkana had it's first frost of the year. (Very LIGHT). Shreveport is still a cold snap off probably.
The barrels to close I-49 (and I-220) were put out last week (The first of November.) Forget the first potential ice or snow.....
They will close it when the traffic between Texarkana and Mira Myrtis Road cruises to a 75 Mph stop and then gets to slog through a wet, narrow, but not icy US-71 between 30 and 55 mph
I guess that's one way to save doing any maintenance on 27 miles of freeway that's relatively straight and level. Must be the bridges they're worried about. Apparently they'll focus on taking care of local roads and US-71 instead.
Quote from: MikieTimT on November 09, 2021, 07:38:20 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on November 05, 2021, 04:57:15 PM
This morning Texarkana had it's first frost of the year. (Very LIGHT). Shreveport is still a cold snap off probably.
The barrels to close I-49 (and I-220) were put out last week (The first of November.) Forget the first potential ice or snow.....
They will close it when the traffic between Texarkana and Mira Myrtis Road cruises to a 75 Mph stop and then gets to slog through a wet, narrow, but not icy US-71 between 30 and 55 mph
I guess that's one way to save doing any maintenance on 27 miles of freeway that's relatively straight and level. Must be the bridges they're worried about. Apparently they'll focus on taking care of local roads and US-71 instead.
That is the basic idea. They really don't "maintain" US-71 either. The traffic volumes just keep the tracks beat open.
My beef is not that they close I-49. It is they do it arbitrarily before the road becomes troublesome and undoes it long after the weather would dictate keeping it closed. Like I said above the Arkansas stretch will have traffic running 75 MPH or more then when you get to Louisiana, it is closed.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 22, 2021, 02:36:25 PM
I tend to associate surface water use as a drinking water supply with either arid regions or areas of extremely high population. (Or also, areas of very shallow, granitic bedrock.) I'm so used to the Great Lakes region where all municipal drinking water is ground water except for cities on the Great Lakes themselves. I figured a place like Shreveport which sits on top of thousands of feet of sedimentary layers and in a wet climate would have plenty of groundwater at their finger tips. But I guess not. Must be too much oil. :P
The Sparta Aquifer supplies much of the drinking water for cities southeast and east of Shreveport but not for the Shreveport area.
Am I reading this right, they actually shut the road down due to cold temperatures?
Yeah I am puzzled by that too. Over a frost/freeze warning? Seriously? Didn't someone know that kind of alert is for plants?
I'm just having a hard time believing that I did a Google search on it and couldn't find much. Fairbanks Alaska can somehow keep roads open when temperatures don't even get above -20 but yet Louisiana shuts down by 49 when temperatures get below 40? Wat
They close it if they PROJECT precipitation and sustained temperatures below freezing.
A dusting of snow will close it every time. They did do some better last year, but still kept it closed way too long once they closed it.
Condition of the roadway doesn't seem to be part of the equation.
Here's a couple. Although it was for actual freezing temps. Still doesn't make sense to me. A couple of bridges on that stretch but Arkansas is further north and would have greater chance of freezing temps and precipitation yet I-49 stays open there.
https://www.ktbs.com/news/dotd-closes-i--due-to-winter-weather-conditions/article_955b8a02-f774-11e7-a31e-e7a0ac8ca6bd.html
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211117/302f3599a0df5a4baae5f91c47a1789a.jpg)
iPhone
charge your phone
Quote from: bassoon1986 on November 17, 2021, 10:59:37 AM
Here's a couple. Although it was for actual freezing temps. Still doesn't make sense to me. A couple of bridges on that stretch but Arkansas is further north and would have greater chance of freezing temps and precipitation yet I-49 stays open there.
https://www.ktbs.com/news/dotd-closes-i--due-to-winter-weather-conditions/article_955b8a02-f774-11e7-a31e-e7a0ac8ca6bd.html
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211117/302f3599a0df5a4baae5f91c47a1789a.jpg)
iPhone
It was cold, but I think I drove to Shreveport on US-71 from Myra that day and on Friday. I-49 from Texarkana to Myra. From Friday night onward, it should have been closed if there ever was a time. That was the beginning of the cold snap that brought the record cold and record snowfall.
I think much of the trigger-happy I-49 closure mentality dates back to construction of I-220, especially when the loop was completed when the Cross Lake bridge opened.
I-220 has always been closed by the Shreveport district of LaDOTD at the first hint of winter precip. I understand closing the Cross Lake Bridge to eliminate accident risk over the water supply, but the whole loop is usually closed at one time. I-49 just became part of the closure list when the north section opened. At times even long stretches of I-49 south of Shreveport have also been closed.
Quote from: r15-1 on December 02, 2021, 02:33:06 AM
I think much of the trigger-happy I-49 closure mentality dates back to construction of I-220, especially when the loop was completed when the Cross Lake bridge opened.
I-220 has always been closed by the Shreveport district of LaDOTD at the first hint of winter precip. I understand closing the Cross Lake Bridge to eliminate accident risk over the water supply, but the whole loop is usually closed at one time. I-49 just became part of the closure list when the north section opened. At times even long stretches of I-49 south of Shreveport have also been closed.
LA-3132 is the continuing freeway south from I-220 @ I-20. It generally remains open even when I-220 & I-49 N close. The barrels that are already in place to be deployed, force traffic on NB LA-3132 to exit at I-20.
Quote from: bwana39 on December 02, 2021, 08:35:23 AM
Quote from: r15-1 on December 02, 2021, 02:33:06 AM
I think much of the trigger-happy I-49 closure mentality dates back to construction of I-220, especially when the loop was completed when the Cross Lake bridge opened.
I-220 has always been closed by the Shreveport district of LaDOTD at the first hint of winter precip. I understand closing the Cross Lake Bridge to eliminate accident risk over the water supply, but the whole loop is usually closed at one time. I-49 just became part of the closure list when the north section opened. At times even long stretches of I-49 south of Shreveport have also been closed.
LA-3132 is the continuing freeway south from I-220 @ I-20. It generally remains open even when I-220 & I-49 N close. The barrels that are already in place to be deployed, force traffic on NB LA-3132 to exit at I-20.
Fewer long bridges on LA 3132 than on I-220. Red River bridge in addition to Cross Lake.
Quote from: r15-1 on December 03, 2021, 01:21:06 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on December 02, 2021, 08:35:23 AM
Quote from: r15-1 on December 02, 2021, 02:33:06 AM
I think much of the trigger-happy I-49 closure mentality dates back to construction of I-220, especially when the loop was completed when the Cross Lake bridge opened.
I-220 has always been closed by the Shreveport district of LaDOTD at the first hint of winter precip. I understand closing the Cross Lake Bridge to eliminate accident risk over the water supply, but the whole loop is usually closed at one time. I-49 just became part of the closure list when the north section opened. At times even long stretches of I-49 south of Shreveport have also been closed.
LA-3132 is the continuing freeway south from I-220 @ I-20. It generally remains open even when I-220 & I-49 N close. The barrels that are already in place to be deployed, force traffic on NB LA-3132 to exit at I-20.
Fewer long bridges on LA 3132 than on I-220. Red River bridge in addition to Cross Lake.
As I-220 goes, I-49 does not have this issue. The longest bridge on I-49 north of I-220 is the US-71 overpass just south of Hosston. While it is longer than the LA-3132 overpass over US-171 and UPRR, the curve and elevation change renders that moot.
I agree they close I-220
at the first hint of winter precipitation, they tend to close I-49 north of town even earlier. The word hint is quite literal. They have jumped the gun a time or two. The precipitation eventually came, but it would be closed for a commute cycle before it even started.
Call me shocked. There is a little bit of sleet farther north and temps are projected below freezing (it is drizzling rain in SHreveport).
LADOTD was out treating I-49 between MLK and North Market. So perhaps, the barrels don't come out tonight?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2021, 12:56:30 PM
Fairbanks Alaska can somehow keep roads open when temperatures don't even get above -20 but yet Louisiana shuts down by 49 when temperatures get below 40? Wat
Are you seriously comparing a state that has several months of harsh winter weather with one that gets winter precipitation maybe once a year? People in Louisiana do not prepare for winter precipitation. That's just reality. When it hits, people lose their minds. It makes sense for DOTD to be overly cautious. It sends a message: "Hey, we may get that stuff we hardly ever get."
Quote from: jbnv on December 27, 2021, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2021, 12:56:30 PM
Fairbanks Alaska can somehow keep roads open when temperatures don't even get above -20 but yet Louisiana shuts down by 49 when temperatures get below 40? Wat
Are you seriously comparing a state that has several months of harsh winter weather with one that gets winter precipitation maybe once a year? People in Louisiana do not prepare for winter precipitation. That's just reality. When it hits, people lose their minds. It makes sense for DOTD to be overly cautious. It sends a message: "Hey, we may get that stuff we hardly ever get."
Yes. There's something called middle ground. By all means continue supporting this laughable practice. I almost couldn't believe they really do this.
https://www.ksla.com/2022/02/03/inclement-weather-causes-temporary-road-closures-arklatex/
They closed all of it preemptively around 3:30 Thursday afternoon. No winter precipitation yet, 35F.
This morning schools are hit or miss. Some starting late, others starting at regular time, some are closed (some closed yesterday, high 30's with pouring rain.
I am leaving and will see how US-71 is here in a bit.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 27, 2021, 05:52:57 PM
Quote from: jbnv on December 27, 2021, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2021, 12:56:30 PM
Fairbanks Alaska can somehow keep roads open when temperatures don't even get above -20 but yet Louisiana shuts down by 49 when temperatures get below 40? Wat
Are you seriously comparing a state that has several months of harsh winter weather with one that gets winter precipitation maybe once a year? People in Louisiana do not prepare for winter precipitation. That's just reality. When it hits, people lose their minds. It makes sense for DOTD to be overly cautious. It sends a message: "Hey, we may get that stuff we hardly ever get."
Yes. There's something called middle ground. By all means continue supporting this laughable practice. I almost couldn't believe they really do this.
Since you apparently know more about how to keep Louisiana roads open in winter precipitation than Louisiana's own department of transportation, please educate us on what this "middle ground" is.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 27, 2021, 05:52:57 PM
Quote from: jbnv on December 27, 2021, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2021, 12:56:30 PM
Fairbanks Alaska can somehow keep roads open when temperatures don't even get above -20 but yet Louisiana shuts down by 49 when temperatures get below 40? Wat
Are you seriously comparing a state that has several months of harsh winter weather with one that gets winter precipitation maybe once a year? People in Louisiana do not prepare for winter precipitation. That's just reality. When it hits, people lose their minds. It makes sense for DOTD to be overly cautious. It sends a message: "Hey, we may get that stuff we hardly ever get."
Yes. There's something called middle ground. By all means continue supporting this laughable practice. I almost couldn't believe they really do this.
If this "middle ground" involves the state of Louisiana buying a bunch of snowplows and salt trucks, consider this: they won't be used 363 days of the year. Plus you have to maintain them and keep them up. That is a lot of Louisiana taxpayer money that could be spent elsewhere...like perhaps maintaining the state's huge state highway system.
Also, regarding your Alaska comment. In Montana and probably Alaska and most other places that get very cold, they don't even bother to plow their roads to the pavement. They just shovel off the top and pack the rest down. Half the problem with snow is the melting and refreezing cycles that happen when temperatures get close to freezing, which usually results in patches or layers of ice on the road. So if it stays below maybe 20F, you can get pretty good traction on packed snow. This is especially true if you have snow tires, and in places that cold, just about everyone does. And because winters are so harsh and regular up there, everyone has experience with driving in that kind of weather.
In Louisiana, not only does nobody have snow tires or have much experience with driving in winter conditions, but it never gets cold enough to allow for that good packed-snow traction. When Louisiana does get their taste of winter, it's far more likely to be the type of winter with the near-freezing temperatures and messy precipitation types (freezing rain, etc.) that lead to especially icy, slick roads.
Yep. Here in Lawton various local social media outlets have been jammed with the usual idiotic complaints of the city not keeping the roads clear with this latest snow and ice storm. As usual the complainers offer up the really dopey apples-oranges comparisons to Northern cities that deal with far more snow every winter. And they routinely over-estimate how great a job those cities do at keeping the roads clear.
I lived in Syracuse, NY for a couple years when I was a kid. Obviously cities that get that much lake effect snow are going to have snow plows running constantly during winter time. But that does NOT mean the roads there are always clear and safe. One good lake effect snow squall can instantly make driving hazardous. Freezing rain is danerous in any location where it falls.
Then there is the matter of what it costs a city to maintain a fleet of snow plows as well as maintain a supply of sand, salt and other materials for treating the roads. The complainers don't think of that at all, or just assume the city has an infinite amount of cash laying around. Quite a few of our neighborhood streets in Lawton are in bad shape and can't be effectively plowed. They're using street graters and pickup trucks with plow attachments. The plow blade on either would jam and wreck the vehicle moving over that uneven, buckling pavement. The main snow plow we have in Lawton is the sun.
So if the idea is to stop people from crashing during rare winter weather in northern Louisiana, a modern interstate freeway is going to be way safer than forcing people onto two-lane US 71. If people insist on driving in those conditions, are they not making it more dangerous for them to slide into oncoming traffic and stuff by closing I-49? This isn't like interstate closures on the high plains and intermountain west where the interstate is pretty much the only option, so shutting the freeway down actually shuts down traffic attempting to move during adverse conditions.
Are they not just moving the problem from one highway to others? It's not like they're shutting down US 71 and various state routes in the region as well. I-49 has space between the directions of travel and huge clear zones off the shoulder and of course no cross traffic so it's way safer to drive on than any surface routes, especially if it's snowy and/or icy.
An Interstate highway like I-49 would, in theory, be safer in snowy or icy weather than a 2-lane route like US-71 since it has a wider right of way and fewer obstructions near the roadway. But motorists drive at different speeds and at different attention levels on those two different kinds of highways. People tend to drive fast and relaxed on Interstates. On regular 2-lane roads you always have to be on the lookout for oncoming traffic as well as vehicles turning onto the highway from driveways or intersections.
Too many people drive too fast in bad weather conditions. They tend to push their luck harder on super highways. The faster speeds yield greater consequences when roads get slick and hazardous. We never hear about 100 car pile-ups on 2 lane roads due to icy roads, fog, etc.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 04, 2022, 12:05:07 PM
So if the idea is to stop people from crashing during rare winter weather in northern Louisiana, a modern interstate freeway is going to be way safer than forcing people onto two-lane US 71. If people insist on driving in those conditions, are they not making it more dangerous for them to slide into oncoming traffic and stuff by closing I-49? Are they not just moving the problem from one highway to others?
I think the general idea is to just encourage everyone to stay home. I lived in Wisconsin for 1.5 years and am basically the winter-weather expert around here, so I can laugh at how easily everything gets shut down around here when the temperature drops or the winds increase. But pretty much everyone's fine with taking a weather day. It's just part of the culture.
Quote from: US 89 on February 04, 2022, 11:44:14 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 27, 2021, 05:52:57 PM
Quote from: jbnv on December 27, 2021, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2021, 12:56:30 PM
Fairbanks Alaska can somehow keep roads open when temperatures don’t even get above -20 but yet Louisiana shuts down by 49 when temperatures get below 40? Wat
Are you seriously comparing a state that has several months of harsh winter weather with one that gets winter precipitation maybe once a year? People in Louisiana do not prepare for winter precipitation. That's just reality. When it hits, people lose their minds. It makes sense for DOTD to be overly cautious. It sends a message: "Hey, we may get that stuff we hardly ever get."
Yes. There’s something called middle ground. By all means continue supporting this laughable practice. I almost couldn’t believe they really do this.
If this "middle ground" involves the state of Louisiana buying a bunch of snowplows and salt trucks, consider this: they won't be used 363 days of the year. Plus you have to maintain them and keep them up. That is a lot of Louisiana taxpayer money that could be spent elsewhere...like perhaps maintaining the state's huge state highway system.
Also, regarding your Alaska comment. In Montana and probably Alaska and most other places that get very cold, they don't even bother to plow their roads to the pavement. They just shovel off the top and pack the rest down. Half the problem with snow is the melting and refreezing cycles that happen when temperatures get close to freezing, which usually results in patches or layers of ice on the road. So if it stays below maybe 20F, you can get pretty good traction on packed snow. This is especially true if you have snow tires, and in places that cold, just about everyone does. And because winters are so harsh and regular up there, everyone has experience with driving in that kind of weather.
In Louisiana, not only does nobody have snow tires or have much experience with driving in winter conditions, but it never gets cold enough to allow for that good packed-snow traction. When Louisiana does get their taste of winter, it's far more likely to be the type of winter with the near-freezing temperatures and messy precipitation types (freezing rain, etc.) that lead to especially icy, slick roads.
If they only closed the roads 2 or 3 days it might be OK.
If they closed them based on observed highway conditions, fine....
They close them well before there are any icy or even snowy conditions. Sometimes, the icy conditions don't ever happen.
Last night Yesterday afternoon it was 36 degrees when they closed I-220 & I-49.
This morning (and last night) were both situations WHERE there was zero ice on the freeway or overpasses. Took I-49 SB to Mira Myrtis Rd and then exited to US-71. Traffic was running 75+ up to the forced exit. There were NO icy conditions.
I will concede that SHREVEPORT was a little bit worse. There was probably an inch of snow in town. That said getting from I-220 to Cedar Grove was a disaster due to the closure of I-49 and the Linwood overpass over the railroad.
Middle ground would be closing based upon observed conditions not on the guess of Todd Warren.
As mentioned above, a good middle ground would be to simply delay closing the road until winter precipitation is actually accumulating. Or even to set up VMSes describing the road conditions and allow a driver to decide whether proceeding in their current vehicle is safe or not. After all, if you venture out on a snowy road and get stuck, or drive too fast for conditions and slide off the road, that's really your fault, not LaDOTD's.
I'll be in Shreveport next month en route to the Natchez meet, and if I end up encountering road closures when it's not even below freezing yet, I'm gonna be pretty mad. There's no good reason to close a road when it's 35°.
Consider this: Oklahoma City gets snow only about once a year as well, and you don't hear of the interstates here closing unless they are physically untraversable in an ordinary car. It may not be a good idea to go out on the Interstate, but that's not ODOT making that choice for you, it's you.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 06, 2022, 10:11:43 PM
As mentioned above, a good middle ground would be to simply delay closing the road until winter precipitation is actually accumulating. Or even to set up VMSes describing the road conditions and allow a driver to decide whether proceeding in their current vehicle is safe or not. After all, if you venture out on a snowy road and get stuck, or drive too fast for conditions and slide off the road, that's really your fault, not LaDOTD's.
I'll be in Shreveport next month en route to the Natchez meet, and if I end up encountering road closures when it's not even below freezing yet, I'm gonna be pretty mad. There's no good reason to close a road when it's 35°.
Consider this: Oklahoma City gets snow only about once a year as well, and you don't hear of the interstates here closing unless they are physically untraversable in an ordinary car. It may not be a good idea to go out on the Interstate, but that's not ODOT making that choice for you, it's you.
It is the night of 3/11/22 as I type this. I have snow on the ground here at my house in Simsboro, LA after the daytime high was 67. I haven't heard of road closures yet. But the forcast for next Saturday is sunny & warm with a high of 72. So hopefully this "last" taste of winter will be the last for the year & the weekend of the meet will not have any road closures anywhere.
It was 66 before the front blew through in Shreveport yesterday. Where I live outside of Texarkana, there was some patchy snow this morning, but nothing significant. It is nearly to 40 at 10:00AM. It is supposed to get at least as warm today as it was yesterday.
Hope you guys enjoy the get together. My youngest grandson is 1 this week and we are getting together the same day as the meet.
I don't think they closed any freeways this time, but they did go out and replace the batteries in the flashing lights on the barricades that they keep staged beside the freeway from November to April.
Quote from: bwana39 on March 12, 2022, 11:16:08 AM
I don't think they closed any freeways this time, but they did go out and replace the batteries in the flashing lights on the barricades that they keep staged beside the freeway from November to April.
I noticed that when I went poking around on Street View last time the road was closed. I'm surprised that they haven't installed something more permanent, like you'll see in the northern plain states.
The barrels are out again. First week in October. They will remain until the end of April?????