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Author Topic: DFW Projects Thread  (Read 212673 times)

Plutonic Panda

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #675 on: September 30, 2021, 02:21:25 PM »

The Outer Loop is actually county funded, they bought all the ROW for it. So I'm not sure if the county is going to pay for the whole thing or if they'll contract it out to a toll provider. Once it hits Denton County it's planned but there isn't any ROW taken yet so I'm not sure if Denton County's even budgeted for it.

Has there been any further talk about DNT extending into Grayson County?  It's been a few years since I've seen any updates on it.  As an aside, I still would like to put my two cents in about adding a DNT West spur to act as a reliever for 35.


Yeah this would be so amazing probably would be up as the best project Texas ever did for, me lol. I really hope they can at least make the west part of this happen. Oklahoma will definitely get on game as they have wet dreams about toll roads.
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Scott5114

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #676 on: September 30, 2021, 03:27:22 PM »

That spur would be epic. Winstar should sponsor it (seriously)  :spin:

The Chickasaw Nation does have their own DOT, but I have no knowledge of what roads it's built and maintains. I suspect they mostly do access roads to Chickasaw properties, like WinStar and the health center campuses.

Given my experience working for them, though, I'd be a little leery of crossing any bridge they built...

In any event, their usual modus operandi is to throw a few million at ODOT for any project that might involve one of their properties, so that they have a seat at the planning table. They contributed toward the I-35 widening near WinStar, the US-377 bridge (near their Megastar property), and also pledged money toward an interchange design that would build a direct ramp from I-35 to Riverwind in Goldsby (though this project came under scrutiny for that reason and may be redesigned).
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 03:33:22 PM by Scott5114 »
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wxfree

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #677 on: September 30, 2021, 04:17:35 PM »

That spur would be epic. Winstar should sponsor it (seriously)  :spin:

The DNT to Grayson County is kind of interesting because that county isn't part of the NTTA's operating area and it's in a different district both for planning and the DOT. So I dont know if the NTTA would have to get special permission to run it or if it would become a TxDOT road at the county line or how that works. There isn't any ROW acquisition past Celina but it's in (two) long term plans.

A regional tollway authority is authorized to extend one of its toll roads in a county which is a member of the authority into an adjacent county.  No special provision would need to be made.  The Chisholm Trail Parkway is partly in Johnson County, which is not a member of NTTA.  However, because Grayson County has established regional mobility authority, the toll road would be built by the RMA.  There are already plans for this extension.  If you look at the DNT improvements page, the map at the bottom shows the south end of the Grayson County Tollway.

https://www.ntta.org/roadsprojects/projprog/Pages/DNT-Improvements.aspx
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Bobby5280

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #678 on: September 30, 2021, 06:29:32 PM »

Quote from: austrini
That spur would be epic. Winstar should sponsor it (seriously)

The WinStar Casino is just past the border near the North edge of the Red River. The route diagram drawn by I-35 runs a line from Whitesboro up to Ardmore which bypasses the WinStar Casino complex. I doubt interests in Ardmore or Thackerville would like that at all.

If a West spur of the DNT were to be built it would be better for it merge into I-35 while still in Texas. That would benefit the WinStar complex much more. As it stands, the US-82 corridor between Gainesville and Sherman needs serious updates, if not a 100% Interstate-quality overhaul. It might be enough for a DNT spur to Whitesboro to connect into where this freeway needs to be built.

The US-82 corridor from Henrietta to New Boston may become an important East-West regional bypass for the DFW metro. A lot of important work has already been done to this corridor; it's already a mix 4-lane divided highway, 4-lane freeway, limited access Super-2 as well as some 2-lane highway.
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I-35

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #679 on: September 30, 2021, 10:05:08 PM »

Quote from: austrini
That spur would be epic. Winstar should sponsor it (seriously)

The WinStar Casino is just past the border near the North edge of the Red River. The route diagram drawn by I-35 runs a line from Whitesboro up to Ardmore which bypasses the WinStar Casino complex. I doubt interests in Ardmore or Thackerville would like that at all.

If a West spur of the DNT were to be built it would be better for it merge into I-35 while still in Texas. That would benefit the WinStar complex much more. As it stands, the US-82 corridor between Gainesville and Sherman needs serious updates, if not a 100% Interstate-quality overhaul. It might be enough for a DNT spur to Whitesboro to connect into where this freeway needs to be built.

The US-82 corridor from Henrietta to New Boston may become an important East-West regional bypass for the DFW metro. A lot of important work has already been done to this corridor; it's already a mix 4-lane divided highway, 4-lane freeway, limited access Super-2 as well as some 2-lane highway.

This was an older version; I've updated a graphic with my current line of thinking, which is similar to yours regarding proximity to Winstar.  My thought is to tie in an interchange near the upcoming bridge replacement over the BNSF rail line just north of Thackerville around MM8 on I-35.  The interchange with DNTw here would be a couple of flyover ramps, not unlike the TX-130 interchange north of Georgetown with IH-35.  DNTw would have a direct interchange with Winstar Boulevard only a mile or two east of the casino complex, which would open up developable land in the area (well, what isn't floodland, anyways).  DNTw would then cross the Red River and continue southeasterly towards Whitesboro, where it would turn more southward near Tioga and tie into the DNT mainlanes just north of Prosper.

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Plutonic Panda

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #680 on: September 30, 2021, 11:33:24 PM »

ODOT and flyovers, yeah right! Lol I jest a bit as theyíve been redesigning more and more interchanges with flyovers but only half of the interchange. Still I love this plan. From what I know the OTA is at its bond limit and has to pay some down. They have other pressing priorities like six laning I-44 between OKC and Tulsa and extending the Kickapoo turnpike.

I wonder if it would be possible for the Chickasaw to form their own toll road outside of the OTA and issue their own bonds. I donít see why the Oklahoma government would be able to stop them.
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Scott5114

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #681 on: October 01, 2021, 12:26:15 AM »

I wonder if it would be possible for the Chickasaw to form their own toll road outside of the OTA and issue their own bonds. I donít see why the Oklahoma government would be able to stop them.

I don't think it's necessarily that the Oklahoma government could/would stop them, but that the tribal government wouldn't initially have jurisdiction over non-Native landowners (that is, on parcels not already considered to be tribal land, either by virtue of being owned by the Chickasaw tribe or a citizen of a tribal nation) and thus couldn't enforce eminent domain in the way the state government can. I don't know how financially realistic the idea is, either. The Chickasaw typically operate at the millions level, not the tens-and-hundreds-of-millions levels state DOTs do. Their bonds would likely carry a much higher interest rate, meaning the toll would have to be pretty steep to service the bonds.

A tribal toll road would be interesting from a legal perspective. I am not sure whether tribes are subject to the EIS procedures that DOTs are. There would no doubt be a "by using this toll road you automatically consent to tribal jurisdiction" sign at the entrance, same as there is at a tribal casino. Law enforcement would be done by tribal police (Chickasaw Lighthorse Police in the case of the Chickasaw). I don't know whether state traffic code would apply or whether the tribal legislature would have to write their own traffic laws. Fines for traffic violations would most certainly go to the tribe rather than state or local governments, and if you try to appeal in court (or sue to stop construction of the toll road!) it would be done through the tribal court system. I don't think it would happen with the Chickasaw, but there are a couple tribes out there where that could easily turn into a New Rome scenario, as the state speed-trap law wouldn't apply to a tribal government.
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I-35

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #682 on: October 01, 2021, 10:31:57 AM »

Good points about who might operate it.  I sort of wonder if it couldn't be operated under an OTA cooperative agreement with NTTA, especially since it only extends ten miles into Oklahoma.  I suppose it could tie in north of Gainesville but south of the state line, but that is some pretty hilly terrain that would make it difficult to construct without coming very close to developed areas in Gainesville.  At least the interoperability issue has been settled with electronic tolling.

I'd like to point out another good thing about this west extension is that it would pick up some of the Ardmore/OKC - Sherman/Denison traffic flow with a diagonal bypass of Gainesville .  I don't have VPD figures on that, but it would cut a good 15-20 minutes off of the 70 mile trip between Ardmore and Sherman.  Generally speaking, what can't be purchased in Ardmore results in a trip to either Norman or Sherman for quite a few residents (as they are in the same DMA).
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bwana39

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #683 on: October 02, 2021, 02:04:47 AM »

Good points about who might operate it.  I sort of wonder if it couldn't be operated under an OTA cooperative agreement with NTTA, especially since it only extends ten miles into Oklahoma.  I suppose it could tie in north of Gainesville but south of the state line, but that is some pretty hilly terrain that would make it difficult to construct without coming very close to developed areas in Gainesville.  At least the interoperability issue has been settled with electronic tolling.

I'd like to point out another good thing about this west extension is that it would pick up some of the Ardmore/OKC - Sherman/Denison traffic flow with a diagonal bypass of Gainesville .  I don't have VPD figures on that, but it would cut a good 15-20 minutes off of the 70 mile trip between Ardmore and Sherman.  Generally speaking, what can't be purchased in Ardmore results in a trip to either Norman or Sherman for quite a few residents (as they are in the same DMA).

Denton is as close to Ardmore as Sherman. Most everything available in Sherman Denison is available in Gainesville.

I would also add the first DNT extension suggestion (that missed Thackerville) would travel nearby the Megastar which the Chickasaw also own.  Truly a better route than the let's get by WinStar.
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I-35

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #684 on: October 02, 2021, 02:20:03 PM »

Good points about who might operate it.  I sort of wonder if it couldn't be operated under an OTA cooperative agreement with NTTA, especially since it only extends ten miles into Oklahoma.  I suppose it could tie in north of Gainesville but south of the state line, but that is some pretty hilly terrain that would make it difficult to construct without coming very close to developed areas in Gainesville.  At least the interoperability issue has been settled with electronic tolling.

I'd like to point out another good thing about this west extension is that it would pick up some of the Ardmore/OKC - Sherman/Denison traffic flow with a diagonal bypass of Gainesville .  I don't have VPD figures on that, but it would cut a good 15-20 minutes off of the 70 mile trip between Ardmore and Sherman.  Generally speaking, what can't be purchased in Ardmore results in a trip to either Norman or Sherman for quite a few residents (as they are in the same DMA).

Denton is as close to Ardmore as Sherman. Most everything available in Sherman Denison is available in Gainesville.

I would also add the first DNT extension suggestion (that missed Thackerville) would travel nearby the Megastar which the Chickasaw also own.  Truly a better route than the let's get by WinStar.

Gainesvilleís retail base is pretty small compared to Ardmoreís - the only store of size in Gainesville that isnít also in Ardmore is Home Depot (Ardmore has a Loweís).  Youíre right about Denton, though, a lot of their retail growth around Rayzor Ranch is more convenient from points north, including Ardmore.  Sherman has many stores that Ardmore and Gainesville donít have, including Samís, Target, Belk, and a lot of casual dining options not available in those two cities.
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bwana39

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #685 on: October 04, 2021, 12:23:36 AM »

Good points about who might operate it.  I sort of wonder if it couldn't be operated under an OTA cooperative agreement with NTTA, especially since it only extends ten miles into Oklahoma.  I suppose it could tie in north of Gainesville but south of the state line, but that is some pretty hilly terrain that would make it difficult to construct without coming very close to developed areas in Gainesville.  At least the interoperability issue has been settled with electronic tolling.

I'd like to point out another good thing about this west extension is that it would pick up some of the Ardmore/OKC - Sherman/Denison traffic flow with a diagonal bypass of Gainesville .  I don't have VPD figures on that, but it would cut a good 15-20 minutes off of the 70 mile trip between Ardmore and Sherman.  Generally speaking, what can't be purchased in Ardmore results in a trip to either Norman or Sherman for quite a few residents (as they are in the same DMA).

Denton is as close to Ardmore as Sherman. Most everything available in Sherman Denison is available in Gainesville.

I would also add the first DNT extension suggestion (that missed Thackerville) would travel nearby the Megastar which the Chickasaw also own.  Truly a better route than the let's get by WinStar.

Gainesvilleís retail base is pretty small compared to Ardmoreís - the only store of size in Gainesville that isnít also in Ardmore is Home Depot (Ardmore has a Loweís).  Youíre right about Denton, though, a lot of their retail growth around Rayzor Ranch is more convenient from points north, including Ardmore.  Sherman has many stores that Ardmore and Gainesville donít have, including Samís, Target, Belk, and a lot of casual dining options not available in those two cities.

We lived in the country and McKinney and Sherman were about the same distance. Sherman Denison didn't really impress me much more than Paris or maybe even Greenville.
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I-35

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #686 on: October 04, 2021, 09:47:48 AM »

Good points about who might operate it.  I sort of wonder if it couldn't be operated under an OTA cooperative agreement with NTTA, especially since it only extends ten miles into Oklahoma.  I suppose it could tie in north of Gainesville but south of the state line, but that is some pretty hilly terrain that would make it difficult to construct without coming very close to developed areas in Gainesville.  At least the interoperability issue has been settled with electronic tolling.

I'd like to point out another good thing about this west extension is that it would pick up some of the Ardmore/OKC - Sherman/Denison traffic flow with a diagonal bypass of Gainesville .  I don't have VPD figures on that, but it would cut a good 15-20 minutes off of the 70 mile trip between Ardmore and Sherman.  Generally speaking, what can't be purchased in Ardmore results in a trip to either Norman or Sherman for quite a few residents (as they are in the same DMA).

Denton is as close to Ardmore as Sherman. Most everything available in Sherman Denison is available in Gainesville.

I would also add the first DNT extension suggestion (that missed Thackerville) would travel nearby the Megastar which the Chickasaw also own.  Truly a better route than the let's get by WinStar.

Gainesvilleís retail base is pretty small compared to Ardmoreís - the only store of size in Gainesville that isnít also in Ardmore is Home Depot (Ardmore has a Loweís).  Youíre right about Denton, though, a lot of their retail growth around Rayzor Ranch is more convenient from points north, including Ardmore.  Sherman has many stores that Ardmore and Gainesville donít have, including Samís, Target, Belk, and a lot of casual dining options not available in those two cities.

We lived in the country and McKinney and Sherman were about the same distance. Sherman Denison didn't really impress me much more than Paris or maybe even Greenville.

McKinney's retail base is, by far, more impressive than anything north of it.  That wasn't the case in the 90s, though, when I was making those trips a lot.  Sherman (not so much Denison) usually has the only regional presence (Texoma being the region) of many of the national and regional level retailers and restaurants.  Ardmore is probably second, with Paris, Ada, Gainesville, and Durant filling out the list.  From Sherman, it's a no brainer to drive to McKinney, Allen, or Frisco for shopping, but if you're coming in from an hour plus away north of the Red River, most find what they need in Sherman rather than adding another hour onto their trip.  Of course, this may all be moot as regional growth pushes northward out of Dallas and the former small towns of southern Grayson County find themselves with 30 or 40 thousand residents.
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bwana39

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #687 on: October 08, 2021, 09:59:26 PM »

TxDOT wants to add service roads to I-30 over the part of Lake Ray Hubbard between Bass Pro Drive and Dalrock Road in order to ease congestion.  The project completion is set for 2023.

I was through there today. They are working on the it. Looks like they are going to build new EB frontage road, new EB main lanes, Use the existing EB mainlanes for the WB main lanes and the current WB mainlanes for the WB frontage. The only part is from Bass Pro to Dalrock. (or the Rockwall county line). Looks like it is not close to the 2023 finish that was originally forcasted.
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armadillo speedbump

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #688 on: November 28, 2021, 03:48:24 PM »

Good to see they're finally starting on the missing link connecting road from 170/I-35 to Avondale-Haslet road in Haslet.  On Thanskgiving evening I couldn't tell how far west of Harmon road has been graded, but there is no evidence of work yet on the west end, nothing at Blue Mound Rd or School House Rd.  Intermodal Parkway also looks to be extending south, I hope they don't just connect the two for now and keep that stupid Haslet choke point having to weave via Blue Mound.  Too much growth taking place in that area now.

Westpoint at I-35 intersection continues to be a 1-lane cluster.  Contractor should never have been allowed to have such an inadequate temp solution for this long.  Another TXDOT fail.

The new Bailey-Boswell bridge over Bus.287 and the railroad in Saginaw looks done.  City website update in October said a November opening date.  Maybe waiting on inspections?  Still cones, and the unnecessary lane restrictions westbound, not sure why the separate left turn lanes haven't been reopened.  If they still have to paint flowers on the side of the bridge or whatever, why do those lanes have to be closed the 16 hours a day that crews aren't working?  The backup during the week can be over 5 minutes to get through the intersections since they insist on permanently coning it off down to 1 lane.

Some shifts to the new lanes on parts of Blue Mound Rd south of 287.  Finally some glacial progress.  Though still have to rebuild and raise parts of the old road, so still a long 2-lane bottleneck, probably for another year or three.

Maybe it's time for the legislature to slap around TXDOT and cities/counties a bit (gimme a special session!) and require any construction project be completed within a certain time limit from the start of reducing road/intersection capacity.  Don't start a segment until you can finish it straight through. 

Ridiculous that a relatively straight forward project like Blue Mound Road is torn up for 3 or more years, with far more weekdays with no visible crews at work than actually working.  Coordination issues can cause inevitable delays, but come on.  A lot of this is budget based delays and too much leeway to contractors.  We can do better.

Maybe a local civilian review board for road projects is a good idea, like some locations use with police agencies.  More accountability is needed.

Maybe it's time to slap around the legislature for the foolish restrictions on toll projects.  Maybe require cities and counties to assess higher impact fees on the new business and housing developments that are overloading our underfunded road network.  Set a statewide base for fees so cities and counties can't underbid to fuel rapid growth while forcing the rest of the state to fund more of the resulting needed roads and upgrades. 

I mostly like Dan Patrick, but his flipping on toll financing to satisfy the nutty Q type grass roots was a terrible decision.  He used to be more reasonable about growth and financing it.  Believe it or not, before the great crash of 2008 he was talking about the need for commuter rail and transit in the major cities as inner city freeways would reach practical buildout in the 2025+ range.  But tax revenues projections were quite different then.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2021, 03:58:42 PM by armadillo speedbump »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #689 on: December 29, 2021, 12:02:55 PM »

A much needed project on the Lower Stemmons Freeway(I-35E) completed:

https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/crews-complete-lowest-stemmons-corridor-job-in-dallas/54915
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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #690 on: February 23, 2022, 05:18:34 PM »

https://www.focusdailynews.com/public-meetings-for-loop-9-project-in-dallas-ellis-counties/

TxDOT is holding hearings for a pair of frontage roads between 35E and US67 that in the future will be part of Loop 9
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #691 on: March 26, 2022, 09:56:32 PM »

Looks like the construction of the new service roads along I-30 between TX-161 and NW 7th Street is vell advanced from what I saw on this Streeview shot from Dec. 2021. https://goo.gl/maps/GeK3JGQ5MVr86MXWA
I guess they'll open soon.
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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #693 on: March 28, 2022, 12:41:17 AM »

DFW growth highest in the nation.  https://www.kens5.com/article/news/north-texas-sees-largest-growth-of-all-metro-areas-in-the-country-us-census-says-wfaa/287-560331ec-5f1c-4709-b5ef-7a5546fbd6cd

Lots of infrastructure needed.
I live right in the eye of the storm. I happen to live in the fastest-growing city in the second-fastest growing county in the nation.
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longhorn

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #694 on: March 29, 2022, 10:11:35 AM »

Trying to imagine north of Dallas without PGBT and 121 Tollway............Shudder to think.

Flew into DFW from the Northeast and we followed the 121 into airport, just looking down and seeing solid houses from Sherman south......... Some of us remember when the city stopped just north of 635/75.
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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #695 on: March 29, 2022, 10:51:01 AM »

Trying to imagine north of Dallas without PGBT and 121 Tollway............Shudder to think.

Flew into DFW from the Northeast and we followed the 121 into airport, just looking down and seeing solid houses from Sherman south......... Some of us remember when the city stopped just north of 635/75.
Pepperidge farms remembers
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Bobby5280

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #696 on: March 29, 2022, 11:05:58 AM »

I still remember the 1990's when TX-121 from Lewisville up to McKinney was just a regular divided highway. The Colony was pretty much by itself on the East side of Lewisville Lake. Then everything started blowing up. Just in the last 20 years the amount of residential and commercial development growth on the North side of the Metroplex has been explosive. Just look at it overhead in Google Earth via the Historical Imagery slider. Amazing.

TX DOT really got caught asleep at the wheel with letting US-380 get overrun with development between Denton and McKinney. Now they're struggling badly to play catch-up. So much growth has taken place that US-380 really needs to be a super highway corridor from Decatur to Greenville. And US-82 farther North needs serious upgrades or at least ROW preservation.

Now the area North and Northwest of Fort Worth is starting to blow up with growth in some of the same manner as areas directly North of Dallas 20+ years ago. If TX DOT keeps farting around, dragging their feet on upgrades to US-287 they are going to be so screwed in the future. They MUST to serious work on that corridor from the I-35W split all the way up thru Decatur. Plus they need to do more work on TX-199 from I-820 up thru Azle. I can see them being forced to upgrade that to a freeway up to Springtown in the near future and maybe even as far as Jacksboro over the long term.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #697 on: March 29, 2022, 12:40:09 PM »

^^^^ at the bare minimum purchase ROW. Why more agencies donít do this is beyond me. Even if you canít get the funds to build the physical pieces of the infrastructure buy the fucking land so we donít end up with a situation like what happened in Mustang. The land could have been purchased by the OTA for pennies on the dollar compared to what they built the Kilpatrick extension for.
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Bobby5280

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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #698 on: March 29, 2022, 03:37:02 PM »

So many elected officials only want to do things that can get finished within their term of office so they can get the glory for it. Buying ROW to keep it preserved for a freeway that might be built 5, 10 or 20 years in the future doesn't make any sense to them. And then there's the elected officials who just want to be cheapskates in the short term. They can spend money just to keep some land cleared of development, even if it ends up saving the taxpayers a giant fortune later.
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Re: DFW Projects Thread
« Reply #699 on: March 29, 2022, 06:45:18 PM »

Going through with eminent domain is a costly, fraught process. Doing it for a highway that may not be needed for 50 years or not needed at all just isn't worth it.
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