Unnecessary highways

[1995hoo]

What's the point of the OH 11 freeway? Youngstown to Buffalo traffic? Why does Youngstown have so many damn highways?

That area has declined in importance over time. It was more important when it was built.

Youngstown's population has declined by 100,000 people, it's a mind blowing drop in population.

The interstate system is a good snapshot of what cities were considered important in the mid-20th century. There are a number of cities that have declined in the last 50 years but yet punch above their weight in terms of highway access.

Youngstown is also a good example of the oft-forgotten other aspect of the Interstate system–"Interstate and Defense Highways." Youngstown had a very significant steel industry in the 1940s and 1950s, perhaps best-remembered now due to the famous Supreme Court opinion from 1952 regarding President Truman's seizure of the Youngstown steel mills to prevent the workers from going on strike during the Korean War. The statute authorizing the Interstate system was enacted in 1956, so Youngstown's steel mills were presumably regarded as a major industry relevant to the "defense" aspect. The steel industry didn't experience serious decline until the 1970s.

[jp the roadgeek]

What's the point of the OH 11 freeway? Youngstown to Buffalo traffic? Why does Youngstown have so many damn highways?

That area has declined in importance over time. It was more important when it was built.

How much traffic does that highway get today?

OH 11 was originally conceived as the Lake-to-River Highway, taking traffic from Ashtabula, Ohio on Lake Erie south through the Youngstown area to the Ohio River cities of East Liverpool and Wellsville.  Back in the 60's when the steel mills and other industrial factories in Eastern Ohio were humming this highway was considered important to the region's commerce. 

Now, not so much.  Although OH 11 does get a fair amount of local traffic as a major north-south artery from Cortland, just north of Warren, southward to Columbiana, its most northerly and southerly sections are sparsely traveled.

Youngstown doesn't necessarily have a lot of freeways, but consider it is the halfway point between Cleveland and Pittsburgh (PA turnpike and OH turnpike), and also the midway point between New York City and Chicago, via I-80, one of the most heavily traveled east-west interstates in the country.

Oh, I can think of a much less useful Route 11: CT 11 aka the Highway to Nowhere.  For 48 years, it has served the town of Salem, CT, and little else.  Also, CT 25 is pretty useless, as is I-384.  All are examples of cancelled freeways that lead to nowhere.

[NWI_Irish96]

Can anyone think of highways that were built although the traffic levels didn't justify it?  In other words, existing roads handled the traffic just fine and continue to do so.  God bless.

No roads I can think of in Indiana that don't need to exist at all, but a few 4-lane segments that could have reasonably stayed 2:

IN 3 between Carroll Rd and US 6
IN 9 between CR 800 S and Etna Rd
IN 67 between I-69 and IN 3

[hotdogPi]

Can anyone think of highways that were built although the traffic levels didn't justify it?  In other words, existing roads handled the traffic just fine and continue to do so.  God bless.

No roads I can think of in Indiana that don't need to exist at all, but a few 4-lane segments that could have reasonably stayed 2:

IN 3 between Carroll Rd and US 6
IN 9 between CR 800 S and Etna Rd
IN 67 between I-69 and IN 3

912 in its current form?

[NWI_Irish96]

Can anyone think of highways that were built although the traffic levels didn't justify it?  In other words, existing roads handled the traffic just fine and continue to do so.  God bless.

No roads I can think of in Indiana that don't need to exist at all, but a few 4-lane segments that could have reasonably stayed 2:

IN 3 between Carroll Rd and US 6
IN 9 between CR 800 S and Etna Rd
IN 67 between I-69 and IN 3

912 in its current form?

Can anyone think of highways that were built although the traffic levels didn't justify it?  In other words, existing roads handled the traffic just fine and continue to do so.  God bless.

No roads I can think of in Indiana that don't need to exist at all, but a few 4-lane segments that could have reasonably stayed 2:

IN 3 between Carroll Rd and US 6
IN 9 between CR 800 S and Etna Rd
IN 67 between I-69 and IN 3

912 in its current form?

I didn't mention that because it was necessary when built, and will still be necessary if they ever fix it so it's more of a temporary condition.

[MikieTimT]

I-40 BUS in Glenrio, TX

By the way, for anyone interested:

AADT (2018) = 39

That's an average of one vehicle every 37 minutes.

Seems like "Business" I-40 is an oxymoron in this case.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Can anyone think of highways that were built although the traffic levels didn't justify it?  In other words, existing roads handled the traffic just fine and continue to do so.  God bless.

No roads I can think of in Indiana that don't need to exist at all, but a few 4-lane segments that could have reasonably stayed 2:

IN 3 between Carroll Rd and US 6
IN 9 between CR 800 S and Etna Rd
IN 67 between I-69 and IN 3

912 in its current form?

Can anyone think of highways that were built although the traffic levels didn't justify it?  In other words, existing roads handled the traffic just fine and continue to do so.  God bless.

No roads I can think of in Indiana that don't need to exist at all, but a few 4-lane segments that could have reasonably stayed 2:

IN 3 between Carroll Rd and US 6
IN 9 between CR 800 S and Etna Rd
IN 67 between I-69 and IN 3

912 in its current form?

I didn't mention that because it was necessary when built, and will still be necessary if they ever fix it so it's more of a temporary condition.

There's still an operating segment between 90/ITR and 80/94 anyway, which isn't useless at all.

[RobbieL2415]

Definitely unnecessary are:
- I-691: You have CT 72/CT 9 just a few miles north of there to avoid Hartford, and its eastern terminus just adds to the confusion where I-91 and CT 15 merge and intersect US 5.

-I-190 (Massachusetts): I really am not seeing the need for an Interstate-grade connection between I-290 and MA 2.  Maybe I'm missing something here?

-Strongly disagree with this. CT 9/72 brings you through New Britain and to a particularly congested stretch of I-84. 691 lets trucks bypass all of that.
- Then everyone would have to shoe-horn onto I-495 if they wanted to get to MA 2.

[Roadgeekteen]

Definitely unnecessary are:
- I-691: You have CT 72/CT 9 just a few miles north of there to avoid Hartford, and its eastern terminus just adds to the confusion where I-91 and CT 15 merge and intersect US 5.

-I-190 (Massachusetts): I really am not seeing the need for an Interstate-grade connection between I-290 and MA 2.  Maybe I'm missing something here?

-Strongly disagree with this. CT 9/72 brings you through New Britain and to a particularly congested stretch of I-84. 691 lets trucks bypass all of that.
- Then everyone would have to shoe-horn onto I-495 if they wanted to get to MA 2.

But what demand is there for Worcester to MA 2 traffic?

[Avalanchez71]

I-40 BUS in Glenrio, TX

By the way, for anyone interested:

AADT (2018) = 39

That's an average of one vehicle every 37 minutes.

Seems like "Business" I-40 is an oxymoron in this case.

I am surprised that the count isn't higher just for the buffs that want to get their kicks on route 66.  I know I drove it just to drive part of US 66.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I don't understand why MN 308 exists (especially as a state-maintained route rather than a county one). It's an independently numbered leg of a Y to shave off one mile of shortcut between MN 11 and MN 89 when they decided to reroute 89 to junction 11 a little further to the east.

[US 89]

The interstate system is a good snapshot of what cities were considered important in the mid-20th century. There are a number of cities that have declined in the last 50 years but yet punch above their weight in terms of highway access.

Likewise, there are a bunch of decent-sized cities that grew a lot in recent years and as a result don't have nearly the level of interstate or freeway access you might expect.

A great example: compare Tulsa, Oklahoma City, and Albuquerque. All three actually have similar metropolitan populations, but Tulsa and OKC obviously have much more robust freeway networks. Hell, even Wichita arguably has better freeway service than ABQ, and it's about half the size.

[Bitmapped]

How about the Mon-Fayette Expressway south of Uniontown?  It too closely parallels free I-79.  Would have been better to focus on the far more important section north of PA-51.  If they had to go south, a more useful route would have been to go southeast rather than southwest, paralleling US-40 and tying into I-68 around Friendsville, MD, or even as far as Keysers Ridge.   That would make I-68 a more effective alternative to the PATP mainline -- while not missing out on any tolls!

The Mon-Fayette was built for economic development, not to serve through traffic. It's useful in segments, not as a through route. Between Uniontown and the current northern end, unless it's bad weather, PA 51 is about as fast, shorter, and toll-free. South of Uniontown, the road has decent utility and utilization in connecting Morgantown and Uniontown. Frankly, US 119 probably should be re-routed onto it instead of its current alignment.

US 40 has traffic counts to support widening out to at least the PA 381/Nemacolin Woodlands area. Widening the existing corridor to 5 lanes makes the most sense as the stuff people are trying to get to is largely along US 40. Building an all-new alignment through here is probably a non-starter due to cost with the hilly terrain.

[Dirt Roads]

How about the Mon-Fayette Expressway south of Uniontown?  It too closely parallels free I-79.  Would have been better to focus on the far more important section north of PA-51.  If they had to go south, a more useful route would have been to go southeast rather than southwest, paralleling US-40 and tying into I-68 around Friendsville, MD, or even as far as Keysers Ridge.   That would make I-68 a more effective alternative to the PATP mainline -- while not missing out on any tolls!

Ouch.  I think I wore out PA-857 when I worked in Connellsville and wanted this road desperately.  But I'll agree, since I don't remember many days that it was busy enough to warrant a four-lane alternative.  Always wondered if the road would be busy on game days, as many kids from Uniontown not only go to West Virginia University but also make it onto the football team.

The Mon-Fayette was built for economic development, not to serve through traffic. It's useful in segments, not as a through route. Between Uniontown and the current northern end, unless it's bad weather, PA 51 is about as fast, shorter, and toll-free. South of Uniontown, the road has decent utility and utilization in connecting Morgantown and Uniontown. Frankly, US 119 probably should be re-routed onto it instead of its current alignment.

It's a perfect example of my pet peeve.  Many states want to keep close to their "historic" US route alignments for political purposes.  So we've got some poor US routes parallel to much better state and local routes.  Yet the vaunted Interstate system has too high of standards to be practicable for many important routes (including some of the new and approved Interstate corridors).  The National Highway System needs one or two intermediate levels to bridge the gap (and create affordable transportation goals).

[silverback1065]

Can anyone think of highways that were built although the traffic levels didn't justify it?  In other words, existing roads handled the traffic just fine and continue to do so.  God bless.

No roads I can think of in Indiana that don't need to exist at all, but a few 4-lane segments that could have reasonably stayed 2:

IN 3 between Carroll Rd and US 6
IN 9 between CR 800 S and Etna Rd
IN 67 between I-69 and IN 3

912 in its current form?

the gaps been filled, and will open soon!

[SectorZ]

Definitely unnecessary are:
- I-691: You have CT 72/CT 9 just a few miles north of there to avoid Hartford, and its eastern terminus just adds to the confusion where I-91 and CT 15 merge and intersect US 5.

-I-190 (Massachusetts): I really am not seeing the need for an Interstate-grade connection between I-290 and MA 2.  Maybe I'm missing something here?

-Strongly disagree with this. CT 9/72 brings you through New Britain and to a particularly congested stretch of I-84. 691 lets trucks bypass all of that.
- Then everyone would have to shoe-horn onto I-495 if they wanted to get to MA 2.

But what demand is there for Worcester to MA 2 traffic?

50,000 AADT on both the southern and northern ends of I-190. MA 12 in Worcester and Leominster already have a lot of traffic, and that is the sole option if no 190.

[hbelkins]

How about the Mon-Fayette Expressway south of Uniontown?  It too closely parallels free I-79.  Would have been better to focus on the far more important section north of PA-51.  If they had to go south, a more useful route would have been to go southeast rather than southwest, paralleling US-40 and tying into I-68 around Friendsville, MD, or even as far as Keysers Ridge.   That would make I-68 a more effective alternative to the PATP mainline -- while not missing out on any tolls!

Ouch.  I think I wore out PA-857 when I worked in Connellsville and wanted this road desperately.  But I'll agree, since I don't remember many days that it was busy enough to warrant a four-lane alternative.  Always wondered if the road would be busy on game days, as many kids from Uniontown not only go to West Virginia University but also make it onto the football team.

The Mon-Fayette was built for economic development, not to serve through traffic. It's useful in segments, not as a through route. Between Uniontown and the current northern end, unless it's bad weather, PA 51 is about as fast, shorter, and toll-free. South of Uniontown, the road has decent utility and utilization in connecting Morgantown and Uniontown. Frankly, US 119 probably should be re-routed onto it instead of its current alignment.

It's a perfect example of my pet peeve.  Many states want to keep close to their "historic" US route alignments for political purposes.  So we've got some poor US routes parallel to much better state and local routes.  Yet the vaunted Interstate system has too high of standards to be practicable for many important routes (including some of the new and approved Interstate corridors).  The National Highway System needs one or two intermediate levels to bridge the gap (and create affordable transportation goals).

Route 119 onto I-68 at Exit 1 and then on to the Mon-Fayette and into Pennsylvania to Uniontown. Make existing 119 either Business or Alternate 119 and you're golden. (Or, in Pennsylvania, Toll 119 and Free 119.)

[Mr_Northside]

Route 119 onto I-68 at Exit 1 and then on to the Mon-Fayette and into Pennsylvania to Uniontown. Make existing 119 either Business or Alternate 119 and you're golden. (Or, in Pennsylvania, Toll 119 and Free 119.)

I could have swore that I saw an article where West Virginia (or at least someone in WV) wanted that to happen prior to the WV section opening (obviously, that didn't happen).

I also agree with the idea though.  And not to get too off-topic, if doing that set the precedent, I would have 119 take over TPK-66 bypassing Greensburg.  Thereby creating a 4-lane (some freeway, some just arterial) US-119 corridor (give or take some one-lane ramps) from Morgantown WV, to a bit north of Indiana, PA - relatively hugging the western base of Chestnut Ridge.

[1995hoo]

Looking back through this thread, I'm mildly surprised nobody has mentioned the Akron Innerbelt.

[silverback1065]

i-69 from memphis to the texas state line is a completely useless boondoggle. it only exists so indiana and texas could get their portions.

[NWI_Irish96]

i-69 from memphis to the texas state line is a completely useless boondoggle. it only exists so indiana and texas could get their portions.

I get Texas but with I-69 already existing in Indiana, did it really need to be designated in Tennessee and Mississippi in order to build the Indy-Evansville section?

[thenetwork]

Looking back through this thread, I'm mildly surprised nobody has mentioned the Akron Innerbelt.

That one is definitely a white elephant:  IIRC, it took nearly 10-15 years to (partially) direct connect it with I-76/77 to the south after the Innerbelt opened.  And now the original northern end is being taken out if it hasn't already. 

Like nearby Youngstown, both cities started building downtown-centered freeways just after their main industries peaked (Akron: Tires, Y-Town: Steel) and were completed not too long before both industries collapsed when the factories were closed and/or relocated elsewhere.  Both cities wound up with stub freeways that were never fully completed as a result.

Had the Innerbelt actually connected I-76/77 and SR-8, it may not have suffered the fate that it now has (especially with the recent rebuilds of the Central Interchange and the freeways just to the north and west of it) and could've been a much more useful thoroughfare.

[silverback1065]

i-69 from memphis to the texas state line is a completely useless boondoggle. it only exists so indiana and texas could get their portions.

I get Texas but with I-69 already existing in Indiana, did it really need to be designated in Tennessee and Mississippi in order to build the Indy-Evansville section?

the only reason why 69 goes to mexico at all is because of indiana. in order to get the feds on board they sold the idea of a country to country connection. and the only reason why it goes through miss is because of trent lott. miss can barely afford the roads they do have and now theyre stuck with this waste of time and money. perhaps they should have invested in a freeway to replace us 45.

[Life in Paradise]

i-69 from memphis to the texas state line is a completely useless boondoggle. it only exists so indiana and texas could get their portions.

I get Texas but with I-69 already existing in Indiana, did it really need to be designated in Tennessee and Mississippi in order to build the Indy-Evansville section?

No, it didn't need to be designated farther south, but for some reason this needed a political push in the 80s to get going, and the other states were needed.  The funding has changed since then from some federally spent on roads to mostly state spent.  Honestly, with what I have heard about traffic volumes on I-30 and I-40 in Arkansas, if I-69 were built it could help out significantly, but even if they started today to physically build it at full speed, you wouldn't see it completed for 15 years (again-at completely full speed).  It may be our country's 300th birthday until it gets done, or even half way completed, and they'll need help to get at that pace.

[Avalanchez71]

i-69 from memphis to the texas state line is a completely useless boondoggle. it only exists so indiana and texas could get their portions.

I get Texas but with I-69 already existing in Indiana, did it really need to be designated in Tennessee and Mississippi in order to build the Indy-Evansville section?

No, it didn't need to be designated farther south, but for some reason this needed a political push in the 80s to get going, and the other states were needed.  The funding has changed since then from some federally spent on roads to mostly state spent.  Honestly, with what I have heard about traffic volumes on I-30 and I-40 in Arkansas, if I-69 were built it could help out significantly, but even if they started today to physically build it at full speed, you wouldn't see it completed for 15 years (again-at completely full speed).  It may be our country's 300th birthday until it gets done, or even half way completed, and they'll need help to get at that pace.

How is I-69 going to cut the traffic issues?  Who is going to use it to go around the world in lieu of using the existing roadways?  Why build I-69 if we already have interstates serving the corridor anyway?