Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?

[Road Hog]

The upper Mississippi is completely uncomparable to the lower Mississippi south of St Louis. 

[bwana39]

The upper Mississippi is completely uncomparable to the lower Mississippi south of St Louis.

The Ohio is the larger of the two North of their confluence.  People who are not familiar with both might not grasp that. In downtown Minneapolis, the Mississippi is smaller than the Red River at Shreveport.  Even at St Louis, it is smaller than the Ohio at Louisville.  The Lower Mississippi is yet a big step up from that.

[codyg1985]

I voted for Memphis, but both cities could stand to have an additional crossing. Unfortunately, for Memphis, the next closest crossing on either end of Memphis is many miles away with those being US 49 and I-155. I'd love to see I-269 extended along current I-69 in Mississippi then across a new Mississippi River bridge to connect with I-40 and maybe even I-55 or I-555 in Arkansas.

[kenarmy]

I voted for Memphis, but both cities could stand to have an additional crossing. Unfortunately, for Memphis, the next closest crossing on either end of Memphis is many miles away with those being US 49 and I-155. I'd love to see I-269 extended along current I-69 in Mississippi then across a new Mississippi River bridge to connect with I-40 and maybe even I-55 or I-555 in Arkansas.

Shouldn't 69 be the one crossing a new bridge instead of it going back south, then north-west, then west using the 49 bridge into Arkansas? 22 is the one that should be extended along 269 to connect with 40.

[bwana39]

I voted for Memphis, but both cities could stand to have an additional crossing. Unfortunately, for Memphis, the next closest crossing on either end of Memphis is many miles away with those being US 49 and I-155. I'd love to see I-269 extended along current I-69 in Mississippi then across a new Mississippi River bridge to connect with I-40 and maybe even I-55 or I-555 in Arkansas.

Shouldn't 69 be the one crossing a new bridge instead of it going back south, then north-west, then west using the 49 bridge into Arkansas? The rest of the route should be another number.

I-69 and  a reroute of I-55 would be a good fit for a bridge in NW Mississippi.   I-240 would be a good fit as well.  As to freeway bridges  the US-49 Helena Bridge is not any part of the discussion. It is close to if not the worst and poorest capacity bridge on the lower Mississippi.  It is a narrow 2-lane bridge. Not suitable for anything but a rural river crossing on roads that amount to arterials (in spite of the US-49 moniker.) There is no scenario that makes sense for I-69 to cross the Arkansas and White rivers (separately) then almost immediately cross the Mississippi river at Helena, even on a new bridge.

Per the official line, I-69 is supposed to cross about 40 miles south of Helena on a new bridge that crosses between two very rural areas. The Mississippi portion would run parallel and redundant to I-55 or would run concurrently with I-55 defeating the quest for added capacity from South Texas to points north of Memphis.

I know I am beating the proverbial dead horse, but the bridge should be pretty much even with the Tunica Resorts. I-69 should come in from the south and the re-routed I-55 should go north.

[kenarmy]

I voted for Memphis, but both cities could stand to have an additional crossing. Unfortunately, for Memphis, the next closest crossing on either end of Memphis is many miles away with those being US 49 and I-155. I'd love to see I-269 extended along current I-69 in Mississippi then across a new Mississippi River bridge to connect with I-40 and maybe even I-55 or I-555 in Arkansas.

Shouldn't 69 be the one crossing a new bridge instead of it going back south, then north-west, then west using the 49 bridge into Arkansas? The rest of the route should be another number.

I-69 and  a reroute of I-55 would be a good fit for a bridge in NW Mississippi.   I-240 would be a good fit as well.  As to freeway bridges  the US-49 Helena Bridge is not any part of the discussion. It is close to if not the worst and poorest capacity bridge on the lower Mississippi.  It is a narrow 2-lane bridge. Not suitable for anything but a rural river crossing on roads that amount to arterials (in spite of the US-49 moniker.) There is no scenario that makes sense for I-69 to cross the Arkansas and White rivers (separately) then almost immediately cross the Mississippi river at Helena, even on a new bridge.

Per the official line, I-69 is supposed to cross about 40 miles south of Helena on a new bridge that crosses between two very rural areas. The Mississippi portion would run parallel and redundant to I-55 or would run concurrently with I-55 defeating the quest for added capacity from South Texas to points north of Memphis.

I know I am beating the proverbial dead horse, but the bridge should be pretty much even with the Tunica Resorts. I-69 should come in from the south and the re-routed I-55 should go north.

I read that the Helena bridge was supposed to be upgraded for 69..  But anyway, I agree, it should get out of MS near the resorts because south of there it isn't needed in the state at all. And I also support this idea because 49 is one of the few routes that doesn't overlap with an interstate for over 10 miles (its overlap with 20/220 is right at 10 miles). But the proposed bridge would still be very useful and would get rid of 278's multiple overlaps just to align with itself again. Now you have a win-win-win.

[ilpt4u]

The upper Mississippi is completely uncomparable to the lower Mississippi south of St Louis.

Could be because the Illinois and Missouri Rivers confluences with the Mississippi River near Alton, IL/just north of St Louis, and then the Ohio River confluence is not much downriver at Cairo, IL/the IL/MO/KY tri-point. That helps make the Mississippi get bigger, quicker, as it transitions from the Upper Mississippi to the Lower

Of course, with the various Locks and Dams along the Mississippi, Missouri, Illinois, Ohio, Tennessee, etc, the volume of the rivers flowing into the Mississippi onto New Orleans and the Gulf of Mexico is at least somewhat regulated

[bwana39]

I read that the Helena bridge was supposed to be upgraded for 69..  But anyway, I agree, it should get out of MS near the resorts because south of there it isn't needed in the state at all. And I also support this idea because 49 is one of the few routes that doesn't overlap with an interstate for over 10 miles (its overlap with 20/220 is right at 10 miles). But the proposed bridge would still be very useful and would get rid of 278's multiple overlaps just to align with itself again. Now you have a win-win-win.

There is no official I-49 overlap in Shreveport. There are some suggested routings not all of which include either / both of the other interstates. I-49 Intercity Connector is still PROBABLY going to get built. It is just going slowly.

Unless the US-49 bridge at Helena is a navigation hazard like the Benjamin Humphries (old Greenville) bridge it should remain there for local and intraregional traffic and any new freeway bridge(s) should be built farther north if is going north of the White and Arkansas Rivers or if that cannot be managed either use the Greenville Bridge or the proposed Great River Bridge.

Yes the local officials in Helena-West Helena are advocating for a new four lane bridge. It is an almost purely local initiative. https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2020/sep/07/four-lane-bridge-seen-as-path-to-progress-in-us/. The article points out that the reasons the Humphries bridge was replaced does not apply in the case of US-49.

From a crossings perspective, the new Greenville Bridge should have been built North of Greenville and the Humphries Bridge should have been left in place and been used as a local / intraregional crossing. The problem was the USACE viewed the Humphries as a navigation hazard. The new bridge was built in the closest downstream location that mitigated the effects of the river curve for traffic navigating under it.   That does not apply to the US-49 bridge.  Leave that one in place and build any new bridge closer to Memphis.

My point against the proposed bridge near Arkansas City is that it is a case of local officials having regional / national sway got a bridge proposal past the "I want it" stage. The Arkansas power broker(then speaker of the Arkansas House / now  Chairman of the state Transportation Commission) and the Mississippi power broker (then US Senate Majority Leader ) got the bridge proposed directly between their home towns. 

In my opinion, the best (and and admittedly more expensive route) is following US-79 more or less from Haynesville LA to Camden Ar then to Pine Bluff then probably a fairly direct route to a crossing near Hughes AR.  As an alternative, a more direct routing cross country from ElDorado might be less expensive, but will curry little or no local favor and little support in Little Rock.  The freeway crossings of both the Arkansas and White rivers combined might be as expensive as second bridge across the Mississippi.

After that, my opinion is a virtually east / west route from around ElDorado to the existing US-82 bridge.  Even with the crossing near Arkansas City on the proposed new bridge, there is a significant east / west portion and a small backward n/s leg.

I am going to add one additional caveat. US-278 replaced most of AR-4 decades ago. In the thirties (maybe later) there was a ferry from near Arkansas City Ar to near Scott MS on HWY 4.  The roads US-278 truncated used to cross the river here. For the locals it is just a restoration of a lost crossing.

[bwana39]

It is possible that if funding is found for the Baton Rouge Toll Bypass, a new bridge will be built to replace the Airline Highway/US 190 bridge, as that road will probably be converted to full Interstate standards. I still hope they can use the old bridge for pedestrians and bikes, though.

The US-190 bridge gets to stay because of the railroad bridge in the middle.  I doubt it will get the Jefferson parish Long bridge treatment, but it will probably remain open to at least local traffic even if there is a new freeway bridge built farther north.

As a somwhat aside; does anyone know what the justification for building the Audubon Bridge was?

[Wayward Memphian]

Taking size north of the Confluence begs the question of which is really the tributary

The Mayor of Memphis has asked Gov Lee to make a new bridge a long term goal.

[Anthony_JK]

Yes, the Crump Boulevard Interchange upgrade has been delayed indefinitely.

Baton Rouge needs a new bridge more.

No, the bridges proposed for Baton Rouge are not to be on arterials. The proposed loop would be:  2.5.1. Design Standards
In order to provide the highest level of service, the Baton Rouge Loop would be
designed as a controlled access free-flow facility. It would meet the freeway
guidelines set forth by the American Association of State Highway and
Transportation Officials (AASHTO) with consideration given to design standards
established by the LADOTD. These criteria provide a summary of methodology and
standards used in the preliminary construction cost estimates. As design
progresses, adjustments approved by FHWA and LADOTD can be made to meet
LADOTD and AASHTO design standard preferences / guidelines.
The design standards proposed for the Project are shown in Table 2.2 and are
primarily based on AASHTO's 2011 publications, A Policy on Geometric Design of
Highways and Streets, and Roadside Design Guide with consideration given to
LADOTD Design Standards for Freeways (2009). The table includes criteria for
urban and rural sections, as both will be utilized along the route  per: http://wwwsp.dotd.la.gov/Inside_LaDOTD/Divisions/Engineering/Environmental/Documents/H.005201%20(H.008732)%20Baton%20Rouge%20Loop/01_Baton%20Rouge%20Loop%20Tier%201%20FEIS%20Volume%201.pdf

[...]

That's actually for the proposed Baton Rouge Toll Loop, which is a separate project.

The current project for the Addis crossing of the Mississippi River is tied to an arterial extension of LA 415 from I-10 to LA 1, then extending east across the bridge to hook up with LA 30 near Gardere. As it stands, this would be a 4-land divided arterial, not a freeway.

If the "Old Bridge" on US 190 is upgraded, they could do something like they did with the Huey P. Long in NOLA and simply strengthen the existing trusses and widen the existing roadways to 3 lanes with proper shoulders. They could also simply build a separate single span for the highway portion and either tear down the existing highway portion or convert it for pedestrian and bike usage, or just tear it down completely.

There arises an issue, however, with the eastern approach: there's an underpass where the Baton Rouge Southern (ex KCS) rail line crosses over the US 190 mainline, and then there is an at-grade crossing of the CN (ex-IC) rail line where there's also an intersection with an access road to the aluminum plant. Monte Sano Avenue, which parallels US 190, also crosses the CN line there as well. How they are going to get a freeway/tollway through that towards the Scenic Highway interchange (a scrunched cloverleaf) is going to be interesting.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

If the "Old Bridge" on US 190 is upgraded, they could do something like they did with the Huey P. Long in NOLA and simply strengthen the existing trusses and widen the existing roadways to 3 lanes with proper shoulders. They could also simply build a separate single span for the highway portion and either tear down the existing highway portion or convert it for pedestrian and bike usage, or just tear it down completely.

There arises an issue, however, with the eastern approach: there's an underpass where the Baton Rouge Southern (ex KCS) rail line crosses over the US 190 mainline, and then there is an at-grade crossing of the CN (ex-IC) rail line where there's also an intersection with an access road to the aluminum plant. Monte Sano Avenue, which parallels US 190, also crosses the CN line there as well. How they are going to get a freeway/tollway through that towards the Scenic Highway interchange (a scrunched cloverleaf) is going to be interesting.

If one could take a time machine back 60-70 years, one wonders how Louisiana/Baton Rouge would have dealt with that if the original I-410 would have been built.

[SkyPesos]

St Louis

...says no one ever

[Anthony_JK]

If the "Old Bridge" on US 190 is upgraded, they could do something like they did with the Huey P. Long in NOLA and simply strengthen the existing trusses and widen the existing roadways to 3 lanes with proper shoulders. They could also simply build a separate single span for the highway portion and either tear down the existing highway portion or convert it for pedestrian and bike usage, or just tear it down completely.

There arises an issue, however, with the eastern approach: there's an underpass where the Baton Rouge Southern (ex KCS) rail line crosses over the US 190 mainline, and then there is an at-grade crossing of the CN (ex-IC) rail line where there's also an intersection with an access road to the aluminum plant. Monte Sano Avenue, which parallels US 190, also crosses the CN line there as well. How they are going to get a freeway/tollway through that towards the Scenic Highway interchange (a scrunched cloverleaf) is going to be interesting.

If one could take a time machine back 60-70 years, one wonders how Louisiana/Baton Rouge would have dealt with that if the original I-410 would have been built.

Yeah, about that original I-410 proposal....wasn't that to use what is now I-110 through downtown to Airline Highway, then double back using the US 190 bridge and then LA 1 or a new corridor just west of there?

Also....I thought that 410 was also the number that was proposed for the Dixie Highway bypass of greater New Orleans? (Of which I-310 and I-510 were its offshoots.)

[Anthony_JK]

It is possible that if funding is found for the Baton Rouge Toll Bypass, a new bridge will be built to replace the Airline Highway/US 190 bridge, as that road will probably be converted to full Interstate standards. I still hope they can use the old bridge for pedestrians and bikes, though.

The US-190 bridge gets to stay because of the railroad bridge in the middle.  I doubt it will get the Jefferson parish Long bridge treatment, but it will probably remain open to at least local traffic even if there is a new freeway bridge built farther north.

As a somwhat aside; does anyone know what the justification for building the Audubon Bridge was?

The main justification was to replace the ferry that served between New Roads and St. Francisville.

A secondary justification was a proposed 4-laned corridor called the Zachary Taylor Parkway, which would have used LA 1 and LA 10 to connect Alexandria with the Florida Parishes and Picayune, MS. That proposal never got off the planning stages.

The Audubon does serve as a nice cutoff connection between New Roads and Baton Rouge through its access of US 61 rather than having to slough through LA 1 to connect with US 190 west of Erwinville. So, there's that going for it.

[bwana39]

It is possible that if funding is found for the Baton Rouge Toll Bypass, a new bridge will be built to replace the Airline Highway/US 190 bridge, as that road will probably be converted to full Interstate standards. I still hope they can use the old bridge for pedestrians and bikes, though.

The US-190 bridge gets to stay because of the railroad bridge in the middle.  I doubt it will get the Jefferson parish Long bridge treatment, but it will probably remain open to at least local traffic even if there is a new freeway bridge built farther north.

As a somwhat aside; does anyone know what the justification for building the Audubon Bridge was?

The main justification was to replace the ferry that served between New Roads and St. Francisville.

A secondary justification was a proposed 4-laned corridor called the Zachary Taylor Parkway, which would have used LA 1 and LA 10 to connect Alexandria with the Florida Parishes and Picayune, MS. That proposal never got off the planning stages.

The Audubon does serve as a nice cutoff connection between New Roads and Baton Rouge through its access of US 61 rather than having to slough through LA 1 to connect with US 190 west of Erwinville. So, there's that going for it.

I knew the replacement for the ferry. I had never seen or heard anything about the proposed Zachary Taylor Parkway.

I guess my (and others') perception is that there are more bridges (many rural) south of Angola than the rest of the lower Mississippi  or even the Ohio river.  Actually the bridges are closer on that stretch than on the Sabine River in Texas.

If the ferry were ABSOLUTELY necessary then replacing it was probably prudent. I understand USACE wants ALL of the ferries out of the Mississippi.  I think the question is more should it have met the fate of the Edgard / Reserve Ferry as opposed to a bridge being built.  I wonder if the Corps paid part of it and the bridge cost LA little to nothing. (SO I understand there was Corps incentives to build the Greenville Bridge. )

[Anthony_JK]

I'm guessing that the proximity of the Hale Boggs (I-310) bridge near Luling and the construction of the Gramercy-Wallace bridge made a crossing at Reserve obsolete.

[bwana39]

I'm guessing that the proximity of the Hale Boggs (I-310) bridge near Luling and the construction of the Gramercy-Wallace bridge made a crossing at Reserve obsolete.

I wasn't talking about the reason the Edgard Ferry was closed. I was talking about the fact it was closed and not replaced.

My question I was suggesting we ponder is: "Is there a real need for a bridge at New Roads at all?"

Since it has been built, it is a moot point. It seems to me that the only real reason for it is anticipated growth in Pointe Coupee Parish or someone (with the ability to influence policy)  believing the bridge would create growth in Pointe Coupee Parish.

And in the case of Audubon, you have Riverbend & Big Cajun power plants (on either side of the bridge) they wanted to improve access to.

This doesn't seem like a viable escape route for the nuke and the Coal Fired Units don't need that. The amount of commuters would be around a couple hundred each if all of the employees of each lived on the opposite bank from their respective plant.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

If the "Old Bridge" on US 190 is upgraded, they could do something like they did with the Huey P. Long in NOLA and simply strengthen the existing trusses and widen the existing roadways to 3 lanes with proper shoulders. They could also simply build a separate single span for the highway portion and either tear down the existing highway portion or convert it for pedestrian and bike usage, or just tear it down completely.

There arises an issue, however, with the eastern approach: there's an underpass where the Baton Rouge Southern (ex KCS) rail line crosses over the US 190 mainline, and then there is an at-grade crossing of the CN (ex-IC) rail line where there's also an intersection with an access road to the aluminum plant. Monte Sano Avenue, which parallels US 190, also crosses the CN line there as well. How they are going to get a freeway/tollway through that towards the Scenic Highway interchange (a scrunched cloverleaf) is going to be interesting.

If one could take a time machine back 60-70 years, one wonders how Louisiana/Baton Rouge would have dealt with that if the original I-410 would have been built.

Yeah, about that original I-410 proposal....wasn't that to use what is now I-110 through downtown to Airline Highway, then double back using the US 190 bridge and then LA 1 or a new corridor just west of there?

Also....I thought that 410 was also the number that was proposed for the Dixie Highway bypass of greater New Orleans? (Of which I-310 and I-510 were its offshoots.)

Something like that...
(Thought I had a better scan of the Baton Rouge inset, in the lower right corner)

la_rand_62

[Tom958]

Both plus Mobile. Our society needs to figure out how to build things that need to be built.

Also, both the I-10 and the I-55 bridges need to be replaced or thoroughly reconstructed in situ, with crossings on new location serving as detours while the existing bridges are closed.

[Avalanchez71]

How about supplemental ferry service?

[bwana39]

Both plus Mobile. Our society needs to figure out how to build things that need to be built.

Also, both the I-10 and the I-55 bridges need to be replaced or thoroughly reconstructed in situ, with crossings on new location serving as detours while the existing bridges are closed.

Reconstruction does nothing for capacity. In both cases a new bridge in a different location would allow for relief routes to be built which would provide the needed relief as well as increase redundancy if there were an issue.

As to fracture critical truss bridges, complete failures have been related to overloading (I-35W Construction materials and stopped rush-hour traffic) and I-5 High Speed Collision with the truss. The damage to the Bay Bridge in the World Series Earthquake was minimal compared to concrete stringer construction failure on the Embarcadero and other freeways in SF.

I am not suggesting either the M&A or the  HWB are in perfect condition, they aren't. But a new bridge downstream, in both cases, will help more than replacing the existing bridges.  As to needed bridges along I-10 Lake Charles is pretty needy too.


Honestly for this debate, Baton Rouge needs an additional bridge (or two) more than Memphis needs even the first one, but Memphis does indeed need a new bridge as well.

[MikieTimT]

Both plus Mobile. Our society needs to figure out how to build things that need to be built.

Also, both the I-10 and the I-55 bridges need to be replaced or thoroughly reconstructed in situ, with crossings on new location serving as detours while the existing bridges are closed.

Memphis needs an additional bridge.  I'd personally love one to carry I-22/I-269 across the river and connect to I-40 as a southern beltway/bypass for my own selfish needs, but a northern one to carry TN-385/I-269 over to I-55 would be beneficial as well to take traffic off the other 2 bridges.  The good news is that there's fixing to be plenty of locally sourced steel available when things get to the point of actual planning and funding.

https://talkbusiness.net/2022/01/u-s-steel-to-locate-3-billion-steel-mill-in-northeast-arkansas/[url]]]https://talkbusiness.net/2022/01/u-s-steel-to-locate-3-billion-steel-mill-in-northeast-arkansas/[url][/url]

[Anthony_JK]

If any more bridges are going to be built within BTR, it will have to be both through a south bypass bridge, which is in the planning stages, and upgrading the US 190 bridge by widening and freeway-izing the roadways, such as what was done with NOLA's Huey P. Long Bridge.

Widening or twin-spanning the I-10 Wilkerson Bridge is not going to happen, because that would require excessive ROW and expensive reconnections on both approaches, and completely reworking the LA 1/Port of West Baton Rouge interchange and the connections with Nicholson Drive/Highland Road/St. Peter Streets and the 10/110 Split interchange. Such a proposal was floated as part of the I-10 widening, along with an elevated double-deck segment, but that was quickly dismissed as excessively expensive and destructive.

[Road Hog]

Everyone up and down the river between Greenville and St. Louis is locked up over earthquake fears. That's the problem.