Are you allowed to turn left here? (and perhaps other implied turn restrictions)

[NE2]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.944547,-82.495341&spn=0.004322,0.008256&gl=us&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=27.944547,-82.495341&panoid=Hqw_3lu7NvcHqcODNmp2Ew&cbp=12,72.26,,0,0.64
There's nothing saying you can't turn left, but the angle is so acute that it's unlikely that left turns are intended.

[Alps]

That's pretty easily implied. Here's one where traffic should be restricted, yet isn't - especially on the acute right turn:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Clove+rd+at+long+hill+rd&hl=en&ll=40.862327,-74.201754&spn=0.001008,0.002071&sll=37.6,-95.665&sspn=34.376255,67.851563&hnear=Long+Hill+Rd+%26+Clove+Rd,+Little+Falls,+Passaic,+New+Jersey&t=k&z=19
(Search query left in for context)

[NE2]

That's pretty easily implied.

How? Simply by the angle? Where is the line drawn?

[cjk374]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.944547,-82.495341&spn=0.004322,0.008256&gl=us&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=27.944547,-82.495341&panoid=Hqw_3lu7NvcHqcODNmp2Ew&cbp=12,72.26,,0,0.64
There's nothing saying you can't turn left, but the angle is so acute that it's unlikely that left turns are intended.

To me, the one way sign tells me you're not allowed to turn left.

[empirestate]

To me, the one way sign tells me you're not allowed to turn left.

It tells me I can't turn left from Matanzas to Henderson (and it isn't the only sign that does). But it doesn't tell me I can't turn left from Henderson to Kennedy. To me, the strongest clue of that is the shape of the painted gore.

Here's another: http://goo.gl/maps/Gzxdg

Can I turn left onto the one-way street (where the green minivan is, to the right of the two Do Not Enter signs)? I've actually done it once, and now it's no longer possible as the intersection's been reconfigured.

[Kacie Jane]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.944547,-82.495341&spn=0.004322,0.008256&gl=us&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=27.944547,-82.495341&panoid=Hqw_3lu7NvcHqcODNmp2Ew&cbp=12,72.26,,0,0.64
There's nothing saying you can't turn left, but the angle is so acute that it's unlikely that left turns are intended.

To me, the one way sign tells me you're not allowed to turn left.

I agree that you probably aren't allowed to turn left.  But the one-way sign has absolutely nothing to do with it.  That sign is meant for traffic coming in from Matanzas (the residential street coming in from the right), letting them know that they can't turn left onto Henderson.  The question is about traffic turning left from Henderson onto Kennedy.

[KEK Inc.]

Well, the way the traffic logic works, no.  If you turn left, you'll likely cause an accident.

http://goo.gl/maps/gf265

http://goo.gl/maps/kGcGO

When the signal in question turns green, the left signal from WB Kennedy onto SWB Henderson turns green (as seen above).  The pavement markings (particularly the gore) makes it pretty obvious you're not supposed to do that; however, I think they should add a sign.

[jeffandnicole]

That's pretty easily implied. Here's one where traffic should be restricted, yet isn't - especially on the acute right turn:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Clove+rd+at+long+hill+rd&hl=en&ll=40.862327,-74.201754&spn=0.001008,0.002071&sll=37.6,-95.665&sspn=34.376255,67.851563&hnear=Long+Hill+Rd+%26+Clove+Rd,+Little+Falls,+Passaic,+New+Jersey&t=k&z=19
(Search query left in for context)

http://goo.gl/maps/uGZi6

I know this area well.  I grew up here.  (The picture makes the area look kinda ugly, although it was and still is a very nice, quite area.  And those stop lines may have been painted the day this photo was taken, seeing how white they look).  Mostly covered by trees, Cape May Ave comes on a very acute angle with Mantua Blvd, similiar to the attached example.  To add to the mix, which you can't tell in the aerial photo, Mantua Blvd quickly rises due to a railroad tressle.  Never one did me, my family, my friends, or anyone in the neighborhood ever have trouble making the sharp right.

[Kacie Jane]

The pavement markings (particularly the gore) makes it pretty obvious you're not supposed to do that; however, I think they should add a sign.

Totally agree.  The gore, combined with the unbroken lane markings on Kennedy.  Reasonably confident it's not intended to be a legal maneuver.

[KEK Inc.]

The pavement markings (particularly the gore) makes it pretty obvious you're not supposed to do that; however, I think they should add a sign.

Totally agree.  The gore, combined with the unbroken lane markings on Kennedy.  Reasonably confident it's not intended to be a legal maneuver.

To the driver that's the hint.  If you observe how the traffic signals work, it's obvious it wasn't intended in the intersection design.

[vdeane]

http://goo.gl/maps/kdhJI

The divider implies that turning isn't allowed.  Oddly enough, it's been in place for longer than the US 11 bypass (which provides traffic from the west access to that road) has been.

[vtk]

https://maps.google.com/?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=38.779564,-82.985109&spn=0.001489,0.00176&z=19&vpsrc=6

Southbound US 23 to northbound (Old) Scioto Trail at Rosemount, Ohio.  I'm not talking about a left turn at the traffic light, which has one-way issues, but more like a U turn just after it, onto the "ramp" that splits from northbound US 23.  Pavement markings suggest engineers didn't even consider that movement to be a possibility.  However, there is no traffic control device in place to prohibit such a turn, and I believe I've seen a car perform that maneuver before.  (I won't say the unbroken yellow median striping prohibits the turn, because left turns across similar median striping are generally permitted into and out of private driveways.) 

[Brian556]

On two different occasions, I've seen people use this railroad crossing as a u-turn. I definalty blew my horn at the a-hole that did it in front of me, causing traffic in the left lane to have to stop unnessesarily. Is this technically illegal?

[KEK Inc.]

On two different occasions, I've seen people use this railroad crossing as a u-turn. I definalty blew my horn at the a-hole that did it in front of me, causing traffic in the left lane to have to stop unnessesarily. Is this technically illegal?

Highly doubtful it's legal.  Are there two double-yellows?  You're not supposed to go through 2 double-yellows in any non-obstructive or non-emergency situation.

https://maps.google.com/?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=38.779564,-82.985109&spn=0.001489,0.00176&z=19&vpsrc=6

Southbound US 23 to northbound (Old) Scioto Trail at Rosemount, Ohio.  I'm not talking about a left turn at the traffic light, which has one-way issues, but more like a U turn just after it, onto the "ramp" that splits from northbound US 23.  Pavement markings suggest engineers didn't even consider that movement to be a possibility.  However, there is no traffic control device in place to prohibit such a turn, and I believe I've seen a car perform that maneuver before.  (I won't say the unbroken yellow median striping prohibits the turn, because left turns across similar median striping are generally permitted into and out of private driveways.) 

You're not supposed to turn left if there's two double-yellows.  This was taught in driver's ed.  It may be a Washington state thing, but it makes sense.

[Brandon]

You're not supposed to turn left if there's two double-yellows.  This was taught in driver's ed.  It may be a Washington state thing, but it makes sense.

I think it's a Washington State thing.  It is not illegal in Illinois to turn left across two double yellows as many are used when widening for a turn lane or sometimes used as two double yellows right next to each other as a set of four yellow lines in the center.

Widening for a turn lane: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.576769,-88.121946&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.576769,-88.121946&panoid=9r0rsNZJaiG0sYN5W6yxWA&cbp=12,193.51,,0,23.13
Four yellow lines in center: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.578176,-88.122011&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.578176,-88.122011&panoid=xPv28f30c1P1zcEDeUf3-Q&cbp=12,343.21,,0,17.72

It may not be technically illegal to make a U-turn at a railroad crossing, but it will attract unwanted attention.

[vdeane]

I think it's a west coast thing; CA has it too.

[1995hoo]

Top of the new exit from the I-495 Express Lanes in Virginia to Lee Highway (US-29) seen last Wednesday afternoon. Might be hard to see here, but those are both red arrows.



The question for the average driver is then whether a right on red is allowed, as there is no sign prohibiting that maneuver. The only relevant statute in Virginia is Va. Code 46.2-835, which doesn't distinguish between types of red lights:

Notwithstanding the provisions of § 46.2-833, except where signs are placed prohibiting turns on steady red, vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after coming to a full stop, may cautiously enter the intersection and make a right turn.

Such turning traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic using the intersection.

The drivers' manual published by the Virginia DMV, on the other hand, says both right and left turns on red are prohibited at red arrows (if you click the link, scroll down to the second page):

Red arrow: Virginia law prohibits right and left turns at red arrow lights.

The express lanes' operator says right on red is legal, citing the statute, and obviously the statute should always trump the DMV manual. In the end I wound up not turning right on red because I felt I couldn't see well enough around the corner to my left to determine whether the way was clear–the stop bar is quite far back and the side of the bridge is rather high.

[NE2]

Damn it. Not the turn on red arrow debate again.

[1995hoo]

What I was trying to get at is not whether turning on a red arrow is allowed, or is not allowed, or should or should not be allowed. Rather, I was trying to address what the reasonable average driver would think when confronted with that light–that is, would he think that right on red is allowed or not allowed.

[jeffandnicole]

What I was trying to get at is not whether turning on a red arrow is allowed, or is not allowed, or should or should not be allowed. Rather, I was trying to address what the reasonable average driver would think when confronted with that light–that is, would he think that right on red is allowed or not allowed.

You're right...based on the law (and I located the VA State Law website and did a further search), the law never mentions red arrows.  So in this case, it appears it would be allowed.  The drivers manual is not a legal document.  Maybe at one point it was prohibited, but there is clearly nothing on the state's Code of Virginia website that indicates it's illegal now.

That said, if I were to be the reasonable average driver (HA!), I would not think it was legal to turn right on a red arrow.

[Brandon]

What I was trying to get at is not whether turning on a red arrow is allowed, or is not allowed, or should or should not be allowed. Rather, I was trying to address what the reasonable average driver would think when confronted with that light–that is, would he think that right on red is allowed or not allowed.

You're right...based on the law (and I located the VA State Law website and did a further search), the law never mentions red arrows.  So in this case, it appears it would be allowed.  The drivers manual is not a legal document.  Maybe at one point it was prohibited, but there is clearly nothing on the state's Code of Virginia website that indicates it's illegal now.

That said, if I were to be the reasonable average driver (HA!), I would not think it was legal to turn right on a red arrow.

That would depend on what state you're from.  An Illinoisan would turn right on the red arrow as there are no "No Turn On Red" signs prohibiting it.

[kphoger]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.944547,-82.495341&spn=0.004322,0.008256&gl=us&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=27.944547,-82.495341&panoid=Hqw_3lu7NvcHqcODNmp2Ew&cbp=12,72.26,,0,0.64
There's nothing saying you can't turn left, but the angle is so acute that it's unlikely that left turns are intended.

To me, that bears similarity to both a right-turn slip at a four-way intersection (Missouri-style) and to an on-ramp merge–both of which you can't turn left at, but neither of which actually post signs to that effect.



How about a roundabout where no one-way or right-only signs exist?  Here's a highway interchange that sort of uses a roundabout as part of its design.  Cars go the wrong way around it all the time–as, indeed, you can see a pickup doing in the Street View.  Is that legit, or not?  (In my example, there is one painted arrow, but it's only on the "bottom" end of the roundabout, the end nobody uses; there are no arrows on the rest of it.)
http://goo.gl/maps/dnp98

[KEK Inc.]

I think it's a Washington State thing.  It is not illegal in Illinois to turn left across two double yellows as many are used when widening for a turn lane or sometimes used as two double yellows right next to each other as a set of four yellow lines in the center.

Widening for a turn lane: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.576769,-88.121946&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.576769,-88.121946&panoid=9r0rsNZJaiG0sYN5W6yxWA&cbp=12,193.51,,0,23.13
Four yellow lines in center: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.578176,-88.122011&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.578176,-88.122011&panoid=xPv28f30c1P1zcEDeUf3-Q&cbp=12,343.21,,0,17.72

It may not be technically illegal to make a U-turn at a railroad crossing, but it will attract unwanted attention.

How does that GSV page justify it being legal?  Roads exactly like that exist in the west, but if you turn through 2 double-yellows, you'll get a ticket. 

I've seen cops pull people over for doing random U-Turns outside of intersections that permit them, so I can't imagine a U-Turn being legal at a railroad crossing.  Out of all of the places to do it, it's not the smartest place to do it.

[NE2]

Adding fuel to the double double yellow fire (though one of the four is faded): http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=37.596603,-121.861832&spn=0.015505,0.033023&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=37.596516,-121.862149&panoid=4DiSuphXZ4m9BL_LI7nZJA&cbp=12,31.7,,0,13.45

[Brandon]

I think it's a Washington State thing.  It is not illegal in Illinois to turn left across two double yellows as many are used when widening for a turn lane or sometimes used as two double yellows right next to each other as a set of four yellow lines in the center.

Widening for a turn lane: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.576769,-88.121946&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.576769,-88.121946&panoid=9r0rsNZJaiG0sYN5W6yxWA&cbp=12,193.51,,0,23.13
Four yellow lines in center: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.578176,-88.122011&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.578176,-88.122011&panoid=xPv28f30c1P1zcEDeUf3-Q&cbp=12,343.21,,0,17.72

It may not be technically illegal to make a U-turn at a railroad crossing, but it will attract unwanted attention.

How does that GSV page justify it being legal?  Roads exactly like that exist in the west, but if you turn through 2 double-yellows, you'll get a ticket. 

I've seen cops pull people over for doing random U-Turns outside of intersections that permit them, so I can't imagine a U-Turn being legal at a railroad crossing.  Out of all of the places to do it, it's not the smartest place to do it.

As I said, it is not illegal to turn left across two double yellow lines in Illinois.  You need a "No Left Turn" sign for that.

With plenty of driveways: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.556075,-88.124771&spn=0.006142,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.555986,-88.124868&panoid=i9cLP4LpjhdR7Cv8O2ZEag&cbp=12,51.97,,0,16.02

And a porkchop with a "No Left Turn" sign: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.556741,-88.123838&spn=0.006174,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.556666,-88.123951&panoid=xdb8lS38004I6iWVud4ISg&cbp=12,67.56,,0,31.03

And here's the Illinois Rules of the Road: http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_a112.pdf  "Solid yellow lines may be crossed
to make a left turn to or from an alley, private road, driveway or street".  There is no mention in Illinois law regarding the number of yellow lines.  As we've said before, the double-double yellow line prohibition must be a west coast thing.  I've never heard of it anywhere in the Midwest.
In addition, for the red arrow thread, "You may make a right turn at a red
arrow".