Imagine that absolutely all guide signs, route shields, mile markers, street name blades, etc. disappeared. And for the sake of this discussion, let's also assume that you can't get directions from private signs and billboards. Without using maps, GPS, or any other navigational aids, what's the farthest you could drive and still know precisely where you were?
The reflexive roadgeek response might be "anywhere in the country" , but as the question occurred to me last evening and I thought more about it, I came to the conclusion that it would be much more difficult than I assumed.
From my home, I'm extremely confident I could get at least as far as Three Lakes, WI, without signage. Drove the Chicago-Three Lakes leg over a dozen times while living in Chicago, and the Jeffersonville-Chicago leg over a dozen times since I've lived here. Without any signs, I may have to split the trip over a couple days to avoid driving at night, but I could do it.
If I had to, I could probably make it all the way to Seattle without signs, but there is a reasonable chance that I'd go the wrong way at an interstate split at least once along the way and get a good distance before I realized my mistake and had to backtrack.
I could probably get around the towns surrounding the one where I grew up without any problem. There aren't really any signs beyond street signs anyway, so you generally need to know where you're going.
The farthest I might be able to get from here is Harrisburg, PA, knowing the region's roads well enough, maybe Knoxville or Charleston, WV, if I really needed to.
I'm fairly certain I could make the Davenport-to-Valpo drive. I could probably make it as far west as Des Moines, as far east as Detroit or Lansing, MI, and as far south as St. Louis, and as far north as the Appleton/Green Bay area. If I deviate from Interstates without signs, though, I'm screwed. (which is a shame, since 2-lane roads are much more fun to drive)
This is certainly a thought provoking question. I started to type from here in New Bern, NC to our condo in Hallandale Beach, FL for sure, and definitely the state lines on both I-40 and I-95 in both directions.
But, and here's the big but:
I'm gonna need gas heading westbound. My 16 gallon tank precludes me from making it all the way to Tennessee without fueling up again. If I pick the wrong exit off of I-40 to get gas then I am completely screwed if I don't realize it soon enough.
I can make it to both Virginia and South Carolina with ease. My car could practically drive itself just by reading the pavement between my house and I-95, LOL.
But, even on I-95 once I cross the state lines, all bets are off because I'm gonna need gas at some point, too. Assuming I find gas and my way back to I-95 heading southbound I should be alright until I get to Jacksonville, FL where the various lane shifts and splits will all conspire to do me in. I'd like to think I could stay on 95 without much thought process but its been a few years, I'm not as confident that I wouldn't choose the wrong lane or ramp at some point through there.
I guess I'm not as good at this as I first thought when I began to type me response and had to delete it and start over, LOL.
I can get anywhere in SD or WY, but once I leave those two states, my confidence level goes way down. (about 530 miles or such)
I'm confident I could find my way to the Outer Banks of North Carolina, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Toledo, Asheville, NC, Charleston, SC, probably even all the way to Miami FL. Going the other way, I could probably get to Chicago, down to Nashville, Atlanta and beyond on I-75 wouldn't pose too much of a challenge.
I could probably get a lot of places without signs. All I usually would need is a map, a clock, and a way of computing mileage (odometer).
I could get from home to work and vice versa (that's about a 60 mile commute). Outside of that, I'd probably get lost even in my home town. If I'm not careful, in my own neighborhood. If I can make it to the NJ Turnpike (and I probably can), I can get as far as NYC on the other side of the GWB before getting lost. That's about 93 miles. Wouldn't be able to do the reverse, though. Similarly, from work, I can just stay on the Garden State Parkway all the way to its terminus at 87/287. That's 150 miles and (assuming I'm already on Parkway south) I could do the reverse as well. I'd have to be very careful to find my exit on the way back, though
Along I-295 in NJ, almost anywhere I would know my exact location. In my county or the next one over, on most streets I would figure it out very quickly. Moving away from this area, if it's a highway I've taken before (at least twice), I would probably know approximately where I'm at once I get to an upcoming intersection, including if there was no signage at or approaching the interchange.
I would be fairly efficient getting around Virginia and most of the Carolinas.
If I had a map I could probably muddle my way to most places...
Mike
Excellent question from the OP. Assuming no maps, I would like to think that I could make it from my home in SE PA to the west coast via the PA turnpike, I-70, and I-15 combo, but in actuality I would be happy to make the proper turnpike exit to make it out of the state on I-70. I would be pretty hopeless once I got to the I-70 splits in St Louis & Kansas City though.
So, for me personally, I would have to choose traveling a route I am very familiar with. I could make I-95 from Philly to Richmond until all bets were off. Then I'd probably be going by the direction of the sun in the sky to figure out if I'm going south-southwest towards Miami....
Quote from: Mapmikey on January 12, 2016, 12:55:10 PM
I would be fairly efficient getting around Virginia and most of the Carolinas.
If I had a map I could probably muddle my way to most places...
Mike
Per the OP:
Quote from: briantroutman on January 12, 2016, 08:12:09 AM
Without using maps...
Using maps, many of us wouldn't have a problem getting around.
I know I could find my way to I-90 and from there I would like to think that I could get all the way to Seattle, but I'm sure there's an interstate split somewhere that would muddy the waters. Looks like Cleveland would be the first spot to trip me up.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 12, 2016, 01:08:15 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on January 12, 2016, 12:55:10 PM
I would be fairly efficient getting around Virginia and most of the Carolinas.
If I had a map I could probably muddle my way to most places...
Mike
Per the OP:
Quote from: briantroutman on January 12, 2016, 08:12:09 AM
Without using maps...
Using maps, many of us wouldn't have a problem getting around.
I was assuming a map with no route numbers shown...
I expect I could get pretty far in the places I know well. I'm confident I could make the ride from the Albany area to SW Fla, having done it so many time.
I also know that when I got home from a trip in such a universe, I'd have a lot fewer pictures on the camera to worry about...
Starting in Omaha, I could get to the Canadian border, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago, Kansas City, Cheyenne and Denver. But heck, this is the midwest, pretty easy getting around. I'd never get past Chicago or Kansas City or Denver.
I recall a disoriented driver from Rockford Illinois many years ago managed to get to the Canadian border in Maine, but she did not intend to go there. Still, I was impressed she managed a fairly direct route there, and didn't wind up doing a large circle around the midwest.
Sad to note, had a coworker with SEVERE dyslexia, he was unable to walk even a few blocks and return to his apartment without getting lost. There was a bus stop immediately in front of his building and he could ride to work successfully, but anything else travel related was extremely difficult for him. He wasn't real good at his job either, illiterate and entirely mystified by the concepts of 'left' and 'right', it was quite a challenge having him around.
I am certain I could make it from home to our relatives' houses in Pembroke Pines and Fort Myers (both in Florida over a thousand miles away) or to Mont-Tremblant in Quebec (about 720 miles). I could probably get to New Orleans easily enough via either of two routes.
Not sure about places like the Maritime Provinces. I've been through New England over the years but have not personally driven there very often. Making the connections to I-84, or getting it right on I-95 past Boston, might be tricky with no signs.
My sense of direction is pretty good- I'm confident I could get anywhere within about 700 miles of here served by an interstate or U.S. highway, as long as I already can visualize where the destination is.
I could definitely get myself to Seattle, Denver, Chicago, Minneapolis, LA, Portland, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Boise, San Francisco, Albuquerque, Phoenix, Tucson, and Kansas City without getting lost. Beyond that I may have some trouble.
Probably either Florence or Birmingham, AL.
I think a lot of people are leaving out the "precisely know where you are" part of the question.
I could travel 1,000's of miles knowing the general direction I'm going in, but I'm not going to know exactly where I'm at for much of that time.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 12, 2016, 03:06:05 PM
I think a lot of people are leaving out the "precisely know where you are" part of the question.
I could travel 1,000's of miles knowing the general direction I'm going in, but I'm not going to know exactly where I'm at for much of that time.
I don't find that to be all that different from now. A few weeks ago my brother-in-law called us as we were driving south on Florida's Turnpike. When he asked where we were, our answer was "somewhere south of the toll barrier and north of Yeehaw Junction." From a practical standpoint, that's probably a more useful answer than giving the milepost.
Edited to clarify: In other words, I don't construe "know exactly where you are" to mean "always be able to say you're X miles north of Y location, or you have Z miles to go to the destination," or the like. I construe it to mean you'd know what road you are on, how to get from there to your destination, and have a sense of the last major town and the next major town.
Ugh...only up to Washington DC. But I still don't have a license.
Very confident I can get to San Diego from Seattle.
I wouldn't drive at night, though. I need those advisory signs or daylight to get through the mountains.
Even using "what road you are on, how to get from there to your destination, and have a sense of the last major town and the next major town" as the criteria, this criteria basically means I can't go anywhere. I guess it also depends on what a major town is. In my answer above, I'd only know what towns are nearby when I have to switch roads, so when I switch from 295 to 42 I'm near Gloucester Township, when I switch to the ACE I'm near Turnersville, when I switch from the ACE to the GSP I'm in Egg Harbor Township, but I have no idea what's in between without looking at exit signs (with the exception of Winslow where the left lane starts/ends).
With long trips on a single road, the best I can do is count exits, but that assumes I know how many there are in the first place (which is sort of true for the Turnpike south of the Eastern / Western spur split, and completely false for the Parkway), otherwise I only know where I am at the endpoints of the trip.
From SE Mich, I'm confident I could get to most of the popular tourist sites in the UP, well over 500 miles.
Going in other directions, I could get at least as far as Atlanta, probably all the way to Florida. Toward the east, Washington DC or maybe Boston. The problem would be how to find a destination once I got near the end. How would I find the particular spot in Atlanta or Boston that was my destination? Not sure about that.
Can we be non-guys and stop and ask for directions?
I have a good sense of direction and a decent photographic memory, so I'd probably be able to get around VA fairly well. I could do the HR/Atlanta, HR/Columbia, and HR/Blacksburg runs fairly easily.
I'm certain that from my house in Phoenix, I could at least get to either San Diego, I-25's northern terminus, Oklahoma City, and San Antonio.
Quote from: slorydn1 on January 12, 2016, 11:08:18 AM
If I pick the wrong exit off of I-40 to get gas then I am completely screwed if I don't realize it soon enough.
That's a valid point (along with food and lodging)–one that I hadn't considered.
Quote from: Mapmikey on January 12, 2016, 01:24:38 PM
I was assuming a map with no route numbers shown...
Perhaps–although I don't know how much help an unlabeled map would be outside of low-speed navigation on rural surface roads. On unfamiliar freeways, my instincts have sometimes been wrong when I ignored the sign and assumed that a lane would break to the north or south or whatever.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 12, 2016, 03:09:58 PM
Edited to clarify: In other words, I don't construe "know exactly where you are" to mean "always be able to say you're X miles north of Y location, or you have Z miles to go to the destination," or the like.
"Precisely" was a poor word choice. I meant it more in the sense of knowing that you're southbound on I-81 between Staunton and Roanoke. Knowing that you've passed Harrisburg and haven't yet hit Knoxville wouldn't be enough.
Quote from: GaryV on January 12, 2016, 05:06:36 PM
Can we be non-guys and stop and ask for directions?
Ehh...I don't think so.
I know how to get on every major interstate in California from my home, so I could theoretically get across the country. But once I enter any large city, I'd get lost if I was told to go find some specific address.
I'd say the answer varies a lot depending on where I'm going. I daresay I'd have problems navigating much of Queens without signs, since I'm not going to recognize which intersection is which based purely on landmarks for any street I'm not previously familiar with.
But I could easily find my way onto the highway without signs, and once on the highway I could easily navigate to any major city in the northeast without signs, although not necessarily by any route. For example I could get from NYC to Rochester without signs via NY 17/I-390, but if I'm on the Thruway I wouldn't recognize any of the three Rochester exits without signs.
If I'm following I-95, I can make it to Canada with no problem going north, going south... yeah, Jacksonville would probably trip me up too, but I could make it that far.
In terms of needing to get off the highway to get gas, true, finding a gas station without any signs (I'm assuming the station itself has no sign announcing its presence either) would be challenging, but not impossible - would merely require being careful and not waiting until near empty to attempt. If I start trying soon enough I could get off an exit, see if there's a gas station nearby, and if not just get back on and try again at the next exit. If I make the mistake of getting off at an incomplete interchange, I'd need to backtrack, but then I'd be able to figure out how to right myself no problem.
The question really becomes - is the navigating game over the instant you make a mistake, or does it not end until you make a mistake you don't recognize or can't figure out how to correct?
I could make it much farther under the latter rule than under the former, certainly.
I don't anticipate having problems figuring out how to properly get back on the highway once I get off, even if at an unfamiliar interchange, since it's merely a question of observing the geometry. If I make what is a net right turn getting off the highway (recognizing that taking a loop ramp and making a left is geometrically equivalent to taking a straight ramp and making a right), I know that I need to make a net right turn to get back on going the same way.
From Nampa, I could for sure make it to Seattle and beyond to the Canadian Border. South, I could make it to San Fransisco, LA, San Diego and the Mexican border (I may get tripped up without signs if I tried to take US-95 through Nevada as I haven't driven it before, but I could for sure go I-80 to I-5). West, I could honestly make it almost anywhere in Oregon, I don't really need maps in that state.
Eastbound, I could easily find my way to I-80. How long I could make it there without getting tripped up, it's hard to say. At minimum, I could make it to Omaha, NE. Omaha, Des Moines, and the Quad Cities have some potentially confusing interstate junctions that would probably trip me up without signs or a map. If I could somehow figure those out and stay on I-80 though, I could make it to Chicago. Going on a natural straight path from there, I could make it all the way to Detroit. But that's assuming I don't get tripped up in Nebraska or Iowa. If it was daytime, I would be able to figure it out by continuing on an eastward trajectory using the sun and I could do it.
Are we talking about pulling up the signs on roads with which we're already familiar?
Quote from: Quillz on January 12, 2016, 07:36:39 PM
I know how to get on every major interstate in California from my home, so I could theoretically get across the country. But once I enter any large city, I'd get lost if I was told to go find some specific address.
This is why I cited relatives' houses in Florida. I've visited before and could thus find my way based on visual landmarks, even if that theoretically meant not necessarily using the most direct route in a few instances. That is to say, the OP said you can't use private signs or billboards to guide you, but he didn't say you can't use things like road features or things you can see from the road. So in the case of our relatives in Pembroke Pines, I would have a pretty easy time finding their house using such landmarks as the large interchanges in the Miami area (those would tell me when I needed to exit if I didn't already remember) and things like schools and lakes to tell me where to turn. In the case of our relatives in Fort Myers, if I were coming from the south, there's a big shopping mall visible from I-75 that'd tell me where to exit, and coming from the north if I missed the first exit I'd know the two-lane C/D road tells me to take the exit after that one.
So in theory it's not as difficult as it sounds if you're good with things like landmarks and such. I'm sure I'm like many of us here in that I can usually remember how to get somewhere once I've been there once or twice.
Then there are other places that should be easy to find by default. I'm sure I could very easily make my way to Key West without needing any directions because it's easy to find your way down the Turnpike and US-1, but once I got to Key West I'd have trouble finding a specific place because I've never been there. I guess this point sort of raises another question: In terms of "what's the farthest you can drive and still know precisely where you were," are we presuming there needs to be a specific destination like a house or a hotel or some such (can be anything....sports stadium, ski resort, golf course, whatever) at the other end, or are we using a city? I kind of presumed the idea was that you were to have a specific destination in mind, rather than something like a city, simply because a city can be such a big target (New York being a fine example).
I could bike to my girlfriend's house. And that's all that matters. *gag*
Quote from: bzakharin on January 12, 2016, 04:56:36 PM
...when I switch from 295 to 42 I'm near Gloucester Township, when I switch to the ACE I'm near Turnersville...
The ironic part about this is when you switch to the ACE you're in Gloucester Township! Actually, the town line between that and Turnersville is right at the interchange.
295 to 42...you're really closer to Bellmawr or Deptford.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 12, 2016, 07:21:14 PM
"Precisely" was a poor word choice. I meant it more in the sense of knowing that you're southbound on I-81 between Staunton and Roanoke. Knowing that you've passed Harrisburg and haven't yet hit Knoxville wouldn't be enough.
Yeah, there's a huge difference between "Precisely" and "You're somewhere in a 500 mile range between 2 cities".
I for one, could get around most of the roads surrounding my town well (I have these "routes" in my head as route 13, 22, 36, 72, etc) plus Statesville to Albemarle.
I could navigate to John o'Groats without signs, I reckon (get on M40, which is easy, stay on it to south of Birmingham then fork off onto the M5 North (I'd recognise the junction), stay on the road until you can see the Erskine Bridge getting near, turn off, go over bridge, turn left, turn right at the A83, which I'd recognise the junction for, turn right at Tyndrum, where I'd recognise the Green Welly shop, stay on the road until a big roundabout north of Inverness, turn left, 3rd exit at Tore Roundabout, keep going until the road runs out).
And heading the other way, Strasbourg is very easy (get onto the French A26 and don't turn off until you are in an urban area).
I could probably cover a sizable chunk of the North Shore/Greater Boston area of eastern MA without too much trouble; mainly because I grew up in that area.
Where I'm currently at (southeastern PA/Greater Philadelphia); I can probably do most of Philadelphia & Delaware Counties.
I believe I've got a pretty damn good sense of direction. I could easily get through Delaware & Chester county without question. And, I could do the drive from Philadelphia to Cape May with my eyes closed.
Quote from: Roadgeek2500 on January 13, 2016, 07:18:55 PM
I could do the drive from Philadelphia to Cape May with my eyes closed.
Please don't.
My brother was stationed in Gulfport, Mississippi when Katrina hit.. No signs, few traffic lights and lots of landmarks damaged, not to mention streetlights out at night... He said is was not easy finding his way around
During daylight hours, I think I could get 20-50 miles away though familiar routes without needing signage. If it was unfamillar, I'd fail the final-mile stuff. I could probably rock the southern half of of Florida on its major roads without signs or maps, but I'm also prone to error.
Quote from: jwolfer on January 13, 2016, 09:05:26 PM
My brother was stationed in Gulfport, Mississippi when Katrina hit.. No signs, few traffic lights and lots of landmarks damaged, not to mention streetlights out at night... He said is was not easy finding his way around
Ah, I think we talk a big game here with our intuition and knowledge, but night-time driving without visible landmarks, sans signage, is a totally different experience. Rural areas and suburban grids would be a lot more difficult at night! But larger cities, with taller buildings, and more recognizable skyline, additional street lighting, and other fanfare would be quite doable...it's probably easier to recognize landmarks rather than signage, which might be relatively small or unnoticeable.
After Hurricane Wilma messed things up to a lesser degree in South Florida, where roughly half the signs disappeared, all the street lights were out, and no traffic lights functioned...it was difficult to drive in very familiar territory. You are supposed to stop at each intersection, which puts you a bit off guard, since the striping doesn't really tell you in advance about how far a distance the white stop lines are from your braking point. It was also dangerous...people ran though intersections because they either weren't paying attention, or they weren't precisely familiar with the locale. You couldn't really trust the other cars on the road, and for the first few days, you were dodging debris (since nature trimmed the trees).
I think covering a long distance with absolutely no signs might be a lot more challenging than a lot of the responses assume. At least a couple said something like "once I get on an Interstate, I can go anywhere" . Personally, I've logged hundreds of thousands of miles across the country, and I wouldn't make that claim.
If maps are prohibited, I'd at least need an unmarked map with a mileage scale, and I'd also need to keep watching the odometer like a hawk. At some point, much of the rural interstate system becomes repetitive: rolling hills, rolling hills, ramp. (Ramp to what? I'm not sure) Or in other parts of the country: prairie, prairie, ramp (or whatever). If you're left to simply observing your surroundings, I think much of the journey would eventually blur together.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 12, 2016, 07:45:27 PM
The question really becomes - is the navigating game over the instant you make a mistake, or does it not end until you make a mistake you don't recognize or can't figure out how to correct?
Even in areas with which I'm quite familiar, I think I'd often end up realizing "that's my exit!" just as I pass the gore. So the trial-and-error approach is probably the only way I could get very far. Though I've made the 80-80 bump in Youngstown perhaps a hundred times, for example, I could easily imagine missing it and needing to double back. The only areas in which I could truly drive reflexively and with absolute confidence are places where I've lived and driven for many years on routes I've covered (literally) many hundreds or thousands of times.
Definitely I could drive 'blindly' all the way to Madrid (the original one, not the ones in NY and IA), Barcelona, and to near Valencia (I would likely get lost at that complex North of the later).
Quote from: briantroutman on January 14, 2016, 03:32:18 PM
I think covering a long distance with absolutely no signs might be a lot more challenging than a lot of the responses assume. At least a couple said something like "once I get on an Interstate, I can go anywhere" . Personally, I've logged hundreds of thousands of miles across the country, and I wouldn't make that claim.
If maps are prohibited, I'd at least need an unmarked map with a mileage scale, and I'd also need to keep watching the odometer like a hawk. At some point, much of the rural interstate system becomes repetitive: rolling hills, rolling hills, ramp. (Ramp to what? I'm not sure) Or in other parts of the country: prairie, prairie, ramp (or whatever). If you're left to simply observing your surroundings, I think much of the journey would eventually blur together.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 12, 2016, 07:45:27 PM
The question really becomes - is the navigating game over the instant you make a mistake, or does it not end until you make a mistake you don't recognize or can't figure out how to correct?
Even in areas with which I'm quite familiar, I think I'd often end up realizing "that's my exit!" just as I pass the gore. So the trial-and-error approach is probably the only way I could get very far. Though I've made the 80-80 bump in Youngstown perhaps a hundred times, for example, I could easily imagine missing it and needing to double back. The only areas in which I could truly drive reflexively and with absolute confidence are places where I've lived and driven for many years on routes I've covered (literally) many hundreds or thousands of times.
Although I rarely do the "OMG! There's my exit"-at-the-gore-thing, I'm glad you brought up the former, because that's exactly what I was thinking: You'd have to watch the odometer constantly.
For those of us who clinch counties, I know that I've had that experience where I've had to take a route on some real back roads where signage is spotty. In order to really turn left or right where the directions say you have to, you watch that odometer, since turning on the wrong road a half-mile too early, for example, gets you off track in very short order.
California to New Mexico (& probably west Texas).
I could do it by the landscape.
California (Joshua Trees)
Colorado River
western & central Arizona (Saguaro Cactus) (Extremely Hot)
Texas Canyon
eastern Arizona, southern New Mexico, west Texas (shrubs, yuccas, grasslands) (cooler temperature than previous desert)
i could go from Trenton, NJ to Knoxville, TN. the toughest part for me would be getting off of the Capitol Beltway on to I-66.
coming *back* would be far more difficult, though.
I have a pretty good map of southwest Texas in my mind. In terms of complexity, I could find quite a few ways to get to the Big Bend without needing any signs. I know the area well enough that I can come up with different routes in my mind, and the roads are simple enough that some of those routes would be easy to find without signs. I have a route from home to my gateway point to far west Texas, with 23 turns, that I could drive without signs. In terms of distance I could get from here (DFW area) to El Paso easily. The Interstates have two lanes in each direction the whole way. In El Paso, I don't know which lanes of I-10 go where well enough to be sure of where I'd end up from there.
By highway... probably as far as Cleveland because I wouldn't know what to do when I-90 meets I-480 I-271. Heading east I could make it down to the NY metro area and would be lost one I-87 ends.
I could figure out where I am locally pretty easily, although I am ashamed to admit there were times I needed to use a GPS.
From my current home outside Seattle, I could get north to Vancouver or south to somewhere around Salem, OR without problems. I think I could get west to Aberdeen too, and east to the other side of the mountains.
From where I grew up around Durham, NC, I could get just north of Washington DC; northwest at least to Wytheville, VA and maybe to Charleston, WV; west to Asheville; east to the ocean; or south at least to Charlotte and probably farther.
Going north I could make it up to Vancouver BC and west I could pretty easily get to Seaside or Astoria.
I think I could go to San Diego via I-84 and I-15; if I tried to use I-5 I'd get lost at the East LA Interchange. Salt Lake City is the farthest east I could confidently go. I-84's continuation at the southern end of the I-15 concurrency is a fairly nondescript exit and I would not be able to confidently do anything at the I-80/I-15/SR 201/Downtown section other than just stay on I-15.
I could muddle my way down I-95 at least to New York if not to Miami. I like to think that I could get to the pacific but I'm not sure.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 12, 2016, 08:12:09 AM
Imagine that absolutely all guide signs, route shields, mile markers, street name blades, etc. disappeared. And for the sake of this discussion, let's also assume that you can't get directions from private signs and billboards. Without using maps, GPS, or any other navigational aids, what's the farthest you could drive and still know precisely where you were?
The reflexive roadgeek response might be "anywhere in the country" , but as the question occurred to me last evening and I thought more about it, I came to the conclusion that it would be much more difficult than I assumed.
If I stay on I-x80, US-50, US-101, I-x05, CASR-41/46, CASR-58, or I-15 (and don't wander too far off while refueling), I am comfortable that I could make it to LA, Reno, Tahoe, San Rafael, and Las Vegas. I would get mildly clueless once more than a couple of kilometers off of each of those routes except in Sacramento, San Luis Obispo, San Jose and Fremont. Without guide signs, on CASR-99, for instance, I quickly lose track of whether I am in Atwater, Delhi, Delano, Turlock, or Madera. I-5 has its distinctive look all of the way down. I suspect that someone could post pictures along I-5 and I could pinpoint the location within a couple of km (or at least to the third of a county).
I could keep driving until my fuel tank ran dry.
I know I could get to my sister's house in Covington, GA fairly easily as I've done it many times and know the split directions for I-75 down to Atlanta and the exit for getting onto I-20 east, and then her local exit. That's the farthest I could get while always having a decent idea where I was and where to stop along the way for food/gas. Though since I'd already be on I-20 east I could also manage make it across the rest of it up to the I-95 split in SC before not knowing what to do.
Under most circumstances I'd be OK as long as I've driven the route before. But for a first-time foray into uncharted territory, the chances are I'd be screwed! From my home in San Jose, I could probably get around in CA pretty well, as well as the western parts of OR and WA all the way up to Seattle; but if a through route made several alignment changes (e.g. I-80 in SLC and I-10 in PHX), I'd be like a rat in a maze; it'd likely take me a few false moves to find the way out of town. Overall, I'd probably only be comfortable staying on the West Coast.
Definitely could get from Fresno eastward to Key West. I've driven those corridors in between so much that I feel confident that I can do it by memory Interstate or not.
I could definitely get to NYC via I-64, I-79, I-68, US 220/I-99 and I-80.
I was about to post that most of my trips would be fairly easy without signs, but then.... I realized each long-distance route I tend to take involves at least one not-obvious exit. These are often system interchanges between Interstates or whatever, but the single-lane exit is on a curve or a bridge and doesn't leave me with the ability to see in advance that it leads to another major highway.
However, having said all of that, I'm fairly confident I could drive from Wichita to Torreón, Mexico–via I-35 to Denton, I-35W through Fort Worth, I-35 to San Antonio, I-410 around San Antonio, I-35 to just north of Laredo, TX-255 to the border, Fed-2 to the outer Nuevo Laredo bypass, Fed-85(D) to Monterrey, Fed-40 around Monterrey, Fed-40D to west of Saltillo, Fed-40 to Torreón. I haven't even actually driven the final 80 miles of that, but it's pretty much a straight shot from as far as I have, and it would be no problem to go the rest of the way without signs.
Two places might throw me off along this route:
(1) The 35E/35W split north of Fort Worth. If I missed my exit for 35W, I would realize it mere seconds later and could easily turn around at the next exit.
(2) The 35/410 split north of San Antonio has been reconfigured since I last drove through there, so I might miss that one as well. Again, if I missed it, I would know immediately afterwards and could easily turn around. I think that would be easier than trying to remember how to navigate downtown San Antonio.
With how much I've browsed around the upper east coast, I could get pretty far. Probably down to Miami on I-95 as well, though my knowledge of FL, GA, and SC isn't great. I have no idea how far west I could get. I could certainly make it to the west coast, but I'd probably miss some TOTSOs and end up in a different place than intended.
I realized I could get through KC by taking I-35 to I-635 to I-29 back to I-35 without signs. I could therefore make it as far as Minneapolis without signs.
My concern would be messing up a TOTSO somewhere.
I'm pretty confident I could make it to any non-suburban city over 100,000 in the polygon bounded by Portland, Sacramento, Reno, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Tucson, El Paso, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, Minneapolis, Calgary, and Vancouver from Boise- mainly because there aren't many TOTSOs and I more or less know where I'd need to exit to get to anywhere within that circle. I wouldn't be able to get from many of those places to many of those other places if I didn't start in Boise, though (unless I drove back to Boise).
Quote from: Rothman on February 01, 2019, 11:20:05 PM
My concern would be messing up a TOTSO somewhere.
I'd view the question as not so much whether you'd necessarily be able to use the most direct route so much as whether you know you would be able to get to a particular destination via whatever route. Missing a TOTSO might not matter if you could go a different way–sort of like if you miss the exit for a bypass but you find your way through a town via the business route. Might take longer, but you still get where you're going.
I could probably make it to Miami without any guidance information. It's a straight forward route from Hampton Roads. Take I-64 to Bowers Hill, then take US 58 to Emporia (it's pretty obvious when you get into Emporia), then take I-95 south for about 900 miles. I don't believe there's any weird left exits for other freeways along the route that could end up sending me 300 miles west of I-95. All freeway junctions are all to the right from what I see.
^ Fair enough. I-95 is a straight shot with no weird turns, after the junction with I-10 was revamped about 15 years ago. It used to be a hard left turn under a bridge to stay on southbound I-95 in Jacksonville...you'd look for all the tire marks, crumpled guardrail, and listen for engine braking to spot it.
Golden Glades Interchange would be simple enough if you're staying on the through route. It would take a good bit of memorizing without signage.
I'm pretty sure I could drive to Chicago without signs. I've made that trip so many times in my life that I think I could do it blindfolded and know exactly where I am. Driving around Saginaw, MI wouldn't be much of a problem, I don't know why I ever use a GPS in this city but I do and sometimes it amazes me on the directions it gives me due to thinking another way might be quicker.
I only recently moved to Palm Springs, so the furthest I could make it would be either Bakerfield or Las Vegas. From my old home in St Louis, I could easily get to Green Bay, Madison, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Chicago, Denver, KC, Memphis, Nashville, Indy, Norfolk, the Outer Banks, and DC without maps or signs along with finding some locations within each city. It would be harder after dark, but I believe I could do all these even at nighttime.
Quote from: Mapmikey on January 12, 2016, 01:24:38 PM
I was assuming a map with no route numbers shown..
I think most of us could travel most of the US using a map without any labels. I'm sure I could label an unlabeled US Interstate map with all the 2DIs and most of the 3DIs, just like I could an unlabeled map with states and capitals. (Nothing special again. I'm sure at least half of the contributors here can.)
Quote from: Chris19001 on January 12, 2016, 12:56:21 PM
I would be pretty hopeless once I got to the I-70 splits in St Louis & Kansas City though.
The I-70 split in KC is easy; just stay on the main highway through downtown (I-670). I-70 rejoins the main route on the other side of downtown. OTOH, I-70 through STL is a total cluster. It's shorter and faster using I-270 through the north suburbs, but the highway switch isn't obvious without signage.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 14, 2016, 03:32:18 PM
If maps are prohibited, I'd at least need an unmarked map with a mileage scale, and I'd also need to keep watching the odometer like a hawk.
This actually brings up another point. Let's say the vehicle you own has a built-in nav system (the vehicle I own does). Now, if you ask it for directions and turn when it says to that's flat out cheating, but what if I don't ask it for directions and just use it as a live map showing my location in realtime? That significantly increases the number of places I could get without signs since it allows me to identify intersections and interchanges I am not visually familiar with. Indeed, having the nav system has proved useful many times for this exact purpose when trying to clinch routes that are poorly signed.
From my house I could go...
West to Downtown Los Angeles (I have no confidence in my ability to navigate the East L.A. Interchange without signage)
North to at least Las Vegas
South to North County San Diego (again, not familiar enough with the freeways here)
East to at least Blythe, possibly Phoenix
Quote from: Duke87 on February 03, 2019, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on January 14, 2016, 03:32:18 PM
If maps are prohibited, I'd at least need an unmarked map with a mileage scale, and I'd also need to keep watching the odometer like a hawk.
This actually brings up another point. Let's say the vehicle you own has a built-in nav system (the vehicle I own does). Now, if you ask it for directions and turn when it says to that's flat out cheating, but what if I don't ask it for directions and just use it as a live map showing my location in realtime? That significantly increases the number of places I could get without signs since it allows me to identify intersections and interchanges I am not visually familiar with. Indeed, having the nav system has proved useful many times for this exact purpose when trying to clinch routes that are poorly signed.
The OP assumed you were not to use that sort of assistance:
Quote from: briantroutman on January 12, 2016, 08:12:09 AM
Imagine that absolutely all guide signs, route shields, mile markers, street name blades, etc. disappeared. And for the sake of this discussion, let's also assume that you can't get directions from private signs and billboards. Without using maps, GPS, or any other navigational aids, what's the farthest you could drive and still know precisely where you were?
The reflexive roadgeek response might be "anywhere in the country" , but as the question occurred to me last evening and I thought more about it, I came to the conclusion that it would be much more difficult than I assumed.
I can drive around San Francisco, San Jose, Oakland, Sacramento, Davis and Los Angeles without a directions.
I'm confident I could end up anywhere. :-D Might not ever find home again though.
Quote from: US 41 on February 07, 2019, 11:09:08 AM
I'm confident I could end up anywhere. :-D Might not ever find home again though.
You will.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_walk (http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_walk)
Quote from: Wikipedia
To visualize the two-dimensional case, one can imagine a person walking randomly around a city. The city is effectively infinite and arranged in a square grid of sidewalks. At every intersection, the person randomly chooses one of the four possible routes (including the one originally traveled from). Formally, this is a random walk on the set of all points in the plane with integer coordinates.
Will the person ever get back to the original starting point of the walk? This is the 2-dimensional equivalent of the level crossing problem discussed above. In 1921 George Pólya proved that the person almost surely would in a 2-dimensional random walk, but for 3 dimensions or higher, the probability of returning to the origin decreases as the number of dimensions increases. In 3 dimensions, the probability decreases to roughly 34%.
But would he run out of gas money first? That's the real question.
All I'd really need to do is get to a major interstate(which is easy to figure out living in a metro area), and I could probably figure what city I was going through based on how far I drive (odometer) and the surrounding scenery. I'm from SoCal and currently live in San Antonio, so if I went down Interstate 10 towards the west I'll eventually start recognizing places. I could probably navigate to exactly where I lived before moving.
East or South of San Antonio would be more tricky for me, though.
I'm really pretty confident. I tend to know enough about rivers, city skylines, particular buildings, college towns, lakes, and the general physical geography of the continent to dope out pretty much where I am along any interstate. I also certainly know which direction the sun rises and sets. I believe I could free hand an 85% or better accurate map of the entire interstate system, and do equally well with the local major roads in my region.
I believe there is certainly no major league level city I could not drive to from any other random spot in the country.
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2019, 12:30:01 PM
But would he run out of gas money first? That's the real question.
No chance. I get 40 mpg. :bigass: