Minnesota county road posted at 60! (Hubbard Co.)

Started by tman, May 16, 2020, 05:07:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

tman

I was out exploring north-central MN today (on a series of back roads) when I noticed that Hubbard County Highway 4 was posted at 60 mph from Lake George all the way south of Emmaville - I'd guess to Dorset, though I didn't go that far south. I saw about 10 or so confirming signs, so it wasn't a mistake or an isolated incident/misposted sign. I was last on the road last summer, and I don't recall that it was posted at that limit (it was then still statutory 55; primarily using END SPEED ZONE / END 30 MILE SPEED, like many other counties in Minnesota do, though some do post "SPEED LIMIT 55" (e.g. Wadena County and Watonwan County come to mind).

This is very interesting as I've never seen a rural two-lane county road posted at 60 in MN - most are statutory 55, like I said. This was a pretty good road, though not flat and with plenty of hills. It also rolls through a lot of resort areas, so plenty of entering/exiting traffic. Good sightlines, though. 60-65 felt very safe and reasonable, but this road wasn't a standout that was exceptionally flat/straight/wide, meaning that it wasn't begging to be posted at 60. As an aside, US 71 through the state has been posted at 60 mph for many years now, and MN has greatly expanded its 60 mph roads (I'd say 80% of rural state/US highway that was 55 is now 60), so it does make sense to include county roads in this, especially as many of MN's county roads are excellent quality and have low traffic.

I can't get my picture to embed, but here's a link:

https://ibb.co/6DZqKD0


sprjus4

January 2019 -

Minnesota speed limits are increasing on rural two-lane highways. The state says it's safe.

QuoteSpeed limits on most rural, two-lane highways in Minnesota are increasing from 55 mph to 60 mph.

And yes, it's safe, state officials say, following a five-year study.

The increased speed limit on some 5,240 miles of state highways – that's 77 percent of state two-laners – is effective as soon as signs go up. In fact, many are already up, and installations will continue through the spring, according to the Minnesota Department of Transportation.

WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS?

In 2014, the Legislature directed MnDOT to study whether speed limits could be safely increased. That study just finished, concluding that it is safe for most stretches of road.

MnDOT wasn't actually required to increase the speed limit – the measure passed by lawmakers said the transportation commissioner "may"  increase them.

But once traffic engineers looked at the data, it became clear that on most stretches of these roads, folks were already driving like the speed limit was 60, and doing so safely. In areas where they didn't think they could safely increase the speed limit, they haven't.

HOW CAN THIS BE SAFE?

It turns out everyone was already speeding anyway.

The study, which examined 68 locations on highways where the same change was made years before, found that increasing the speed limit from 55 to 60 mph wouldn't actually change how folks drive a whole lot.

When the signs said 55, the average speed for all vehicles was 59 mph, and 85 percent of vehicles were going 65 mph or slower.

When the limit was upped to 60, the average speed went up to ... 60. And 85 percent of the drivers still went 65 or slower.

The average of the five highest speeds – a way to measure the behavior of lead-footed drivers – was the same before and after, at 76 mph.

One change that could benefit safety: The typical difference between speeds of vehicles went down slightly, according to the study, which cost $1.2 million.

"In other words, more drivers traveled at a similar speed after speed limits increased,"  said Nathan Drews, engineering specialist in MnDOT's office of traffic engineering. "This is a desirable outcome, but this change is very slight and may not affect the frequency or severity of crashes."

WHICH ROADS?

Too many roads to list here are affected. If you're really curious, pore over the tables in Appendix E of the actual study (Page 24).

COOL FACTOID

According to MnDOT, this is the "largest system-wide change in Minnesota speed limits since the national maximum speed limit of 55 mph was included in President Nixon's Emergency Highway Conservation Act bill in 1974. The Minnesota Commissioner of Highways later that year established an executive order about speed limits."
Drews said that before that, many state highways had speed limits of 60 to 65 mph during the day and 50 to 55 mph at night. "In some ways, this is a return,"  he said.

froggie

The study and news article that sprjus posted refers to the state Legislature's mandate to investigate speed limits on the state highways.  It did not involve county roadways.

While speed limits above 55 on county highways are rare, they are not unheard of.  IIRC, there's a stretch of Stearns CSAH 75 near St. Joseph that's signed 60 MPH and has been that way for years.  There also used to be a section of Scott CSAH 21 in Shakopee signed at 60...not sure if it still is.

sprjus4

December 2019 -

MnDOT recommends speed limit changes on County 4 and 89
QuoteHubbard County Public Works Coordinator Jed Nordin shared the results of three speed studies conducted by the Minnesota Department of Transportation (MnDOT) on County Road 89, County State Aid Highway (CSAH) 1 and CSAH 4.

Residents on CSAH 1 submitted a petition requesting that study, Nordin reminded the Hubbard County Board at Tuesday's meeting.

The county sought a speed study for County 89 — from U.S. Hwy. 71 to one mile north, due to hills and curves, limited width, several residences and two restaurants accessing directly onto the road. It is currently posted 55 mph.

The county also recommended a speed study for CSAH 4. Based on the study results, MnDOT agreed that CSAH 4 would be a likely candidate for a 60 mph speed limit, Nordin said.

CSAH 4

MnDOT collected speed data at two locations along CSAH 4, with an 85 percent of traffic moving between 64.4 and 66.5 mph.

"So they have no problem recommending this one to be bumped up to 60 mph,"  Nordin said. "It would still have the reduced speed through Emmaville."

There were 14 crashes on CSAH 4 between 2011 and 2015. CSAH 4 is described as a 10-ton roadway with 12-foot driving lanes, and 7 to 8 feet paved with 1-foot aggregate shoulders. Access density is 10.54 accesses per mile.

"Given the crash pattern history, the curves need to be checked to ensure that the horizontal warning signs are in compliance with the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices) for 60 mph,"  the report states.

Nordin said the county highway department will check the existing signs on the curves.

The county board approved the higher speed limit for CSAH 4.

Roadgeekteen

I wish more states east of the plains posted 60 on two lane roads.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

tman

Quote from: froggie on May 16, 2020, 05:31:02 PM
The study and news article that sprjus posted refers to the state Legislature's mandate to investigate speed limits on the state highways.  It did not involve county roadways.

While speed limits above 55 on county highways are rare, they are not unheard of.  IIRC, there's a stretch of Stearns CSAH 75 near St. Joseph that's signed 60 MPH and has been that way for years.  There also used to be a section of Scott CSAH 21 in Shakopee signed at 60...not sure if it still is.

Interesting. I wonder if this suggests that other counties will be following suit? It seems that many people drive 60+ on the ones I'm familiar with anyway, and my home county doesn't sign "SPEED LIMIT 55" anywhere - it's all "END 30 MILE SPEED" which would mean all new signs (or changing the statutory limit to 60).

sprjus4

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2020, 06:09:00 PM
I wish more states east of the plains posted 60 on two lane roads.
Agreed.

Florida posts up to 60 mph on many 2 lane roads.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: froggie on May 16, 2020, 05:31:02 PM
The study and news article that sprjus posted refers to the state Legislature's mandate to investigate speed limits on the state highways.  It did not involve county roadways.

While speed limits above 55 on county highways are rare, they are not unheard of.  IIRC, there's a stretch of Stearns CSAH 75 near St. Joseph that's signed 60 MPH and has been that way for years.  There also used to be a section of Scott CSAH 21 in Shakopee signed at 60...not sure if it still is.

Scott County 21 was "lowered"  back to 55 as part of the associated reconstruction between US 169 and County 18. That area had also seen an amount of new business development.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

froggie

Quote from: tman on May 16, 2020, 06:16:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 16, 2020, 05:31:02 PM
The study and news article that sprjus posted refers to the state Legislature's mandate to investigate speed limits on the state highways.  It did not involve county roadways.

While speed limits above 55 on county highways are rare, they are not unheard of.  IIRC, there's a stretch of Stearns CSAH 75 near St. Joseph that's signed 60 MPH and has been that way for years.  There also used to be a section of Scott CSAH 21 in Shakopee signed at 60...not sure if it still is.

Interesting. I wonder if this suggests that other counties will be following suit? It seems that many people drive 60+ on the ones I'm familiar with anyway, and my home county doesn't sign "SPEED LIMIT 55" anywhere - it's all "END 30 MILE SPEED" which would mean all new signs (or changing the statutory limit to 60).

Default is 55.  State law, however, allows local jurisdictions to request changes via MnDOT after a traffic and engineering study.  Few have taken advantage for an increase in speed.

TheHighwayMan3561

I don't really have a problem with counties staying 55. Most counties outside the metro district only have a small amount of mileage that meet a standard regarding shoulders and/or lane width that I would consider adequate for 60 (that Stearns County 75 section for example is a rural four-lane expressway that could probably be posted 65 if it was state-maintained).
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

froggie

On the flip side, I've seen a number of state highways outside the Metro that were "upgraded" to 60 MPH but still lacked a "standard regarding shoulders".  MN 79 stands out in my mind here.

kphoger

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 17, 2020, 01:18:39 PM
I don't really have a problem with counties staying 55. Most counties outside the metro district only have a small amount of mileage that meet a standard regarding shoulders and/or lane width that I would consider adequate for 60 (that Stearns County 75 section for example is a rural four-lane expressway that could probably be posted 65 if it was state-maintained).

I can think of plenty of county highways in MN that are nearly indistinguishable from state highways, including hard shoulders.  I see no reason those shouldn't have just as high of speed limits as their state route counterparts.

Here is an example I'm quite familiar with.  Why can't this county highways be allowed the same speed limit as this nearby state highway is allowed?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

TheHighwayMan3561

But I didn't say "no county roads should be allowed be posted at 60" . I suggested that examples like that one are not what constitute the majority of most counties' mileage, especially the further from the metro you are. I questioned whether it's worth their effort and money to invest in having people from the state come evaluate a small amount of your road mileage. Hubbard did, obviously. 
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

kphoger

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 18, 2020, 04:16:20 PM
But I didn't say "no county roads should be allowed be posted at 60" . I suggested that examples like that one are not what constitute the majority of most counties' mileage, especially the further from the metro you are. I questioned whether it's worth their effort and money to invest in having people from the state come evaluate a small amount of your road mileage. Hubbard did, obviously. 

Sorry, I misinterpreted your response as being that you thought it was a good idea for county highways to stay at 55.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

froggie

Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2020, 12:37:01 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 17, 2020, 01:18:39 PM
I don't really have a problem with counties staying 55. Most counties outside the metro district only have a small amount of mileage that meet a standard regarding shoulders and/or lane width that I would consider adequate for 60 (that Stearns County 75 section for example is a rural four-lane expressway that could probably be posted 65 if it was state-maintained).

I can think of plenty of county highways in MN that are nearly indistinguishable from state highways, including hard shoulders.  I see no reason those shouldn't have just as high of speed limits as their state route counterparts.

Here is an example I'm quite familiar with.  Why can't this county highways be allowed the same speed limit as this nearby state highway is allowed?

It's allowed.  But it's up to the local (in this case Wright County) jurisdiction to formally request the change from MnDOT.  Then MnDOT has to take the time to do the traffic and engineering study to see if the change is warranted.

I'm also with TheHighwayMan394 in that such high-quality county roads are the exception rather than the norm, especially the further away from the Twin Cities you get (with the notable exception of Olmsted County).

GMoney0805

This is back from June but Polk County, Minnesota raised the speed limit from 55 to 60 on four county roads https://www.kroxam.com/2020/07/09/speeds-increase-on-four-polk-county-highways-to-60-miles-per-hour/


iPhone



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.