Wisconsin notes

[midwesternroadguy]

Madison has a hybrid echelon-jug handle at Mineral Point Rd (County Trunk S) and Junction Road (County Trunk M) just west of the Beltline on the far western edge of town. 

Some comments:  The jug handle creates two sets of stoplights for through movements on Mineral Point.  It could provide an opportunity for free flow turns to southbound Junction Road, but those are also controlled by stoplights.  The increased efficiency of the jug handle for southbound Junction Road is therefore lost.  I'm not sure if a pure echelon would have been better--any thoughts?

[I-39]

They need to raise the speed limit on the US 12 Baraboo bypass when the entire thing is finished. 55 mph is too low.

[GeekJedi]

I believe the 55MPH limit was a local requirement for WisDOT to build the bypass.

[Roadguy]

Maybe one in Madison too... 

Glad you included the video, I'm not sure many people even in the engineering world have heard of the Echelon Interchange.  I understand substantial  benefits this interchange has operations wise but the costs of these are so substantial in terms of walls and bridge structures, it will be interesting to see if one ever gets built.  Especially with DOT entering a new era of tight fiscal constraints, where it will be difficult to find money for maintenance projects, I find it had to believe a region office would devote such a substantial sum of funding to one intersection out of their normal 3R budget.  The only way I ever see one getting built is if it is done out of majors funding.

[JMAN_WiS&S]

On a different note, I have a question regarding WisDOT/Traffic signal "Practices"
A common wisconsin setup is Protective only left turn signals, fya, or 5 stack in the median for left turns with Green Straight arrows,Yellow Ball, Red ball for the median thru signals, as well as the trombone vertically mounted left through lane signal. Here is where my question comes in. Today and over the last week ive noticed the thru signals have been changed from a green up arrow to a standard green ball. Why would this be? I will try to provide a flickr link. This is not the example i was looking for but it is on Clairemont, and is kind of similar to what im talking about. Type this into your browser: https://flic.kr/p/nSkWn2  This is a FYA/Thru signal. The aspect in question is the green straight arrow. Ive been noticing these being replaced with green balls. Anyone know why? Sorry for the long post.

[colinstu]

I don't know if this applies here, but before WI went crazy with arrows and different colors / flashing...
A green left arrow (or green ball with a sign below it that said "left turn signal")+ a green ball would be lit, then no arrow and just a green ball (basically equivalent to a flashing yellow arrow these days), and then a red ball (again no arrow).

I prefer these 4 light style setups. Much simpler to both setup & understand IMO.

I don't know why would they get rid of the green straight arrow. Did they remove the left turn arrows?

[mgk920]

^^
Isn't that spelled out in the MUTCD?

Mike

[midwesternroadguy]

I believe the 55MPH limit was a local requirement for WisDOT to build the bypass.

I kind of like the idea of the reduced speed limit--one more thing to make US 12 less appealing as an alternative to 90/94 between the Dells and Madison (assuming some day that a Sauk City bypass is built, and the stoplights will be removed between there and Ashton Corners at County K north of Middleton)

[JMAN_WiS&S]

I don't know if this applies here, but before WI went crazy with arrows and different colors / flashing...

I don't know why would they get rid of the green straight arrow. Did they remove the left turn arrows?

No, the turn signals are still there. I wonder if it's has something to do with a lot of the already LED signalized intersections getting the new standard LED fixture/insert.

[Revive 755]

I don't know why would they get rid of the green straight arrow. Did they remove the left turn arrows?

Wild guess:  For some reason green arrows do not seem to be as visible as red and yellow arrows are, much less a circular green, and Wisconsin is using this reason for preferring circular green indications over green arrows.

[GeekJedi]

Interesting article about the new speed limit. Of interest is the last paragraph:

"There are roadways built to freeway standards that were not automatically switched over from 65 to 70," state Southeast Region Communications Manager Michael Pyritz said. "There are areas out there that are at 65, but if the roadway is sufficient to meet freeway standards, the department is looking into changing those to 70, as well."

http://www.brookfieldnow.com/news/state-patrol-warns-that-higher-speed-limit-on-i-94-does-not-mean-go-faster-b99541242z1-317594491.html

[SSOWorld]

Like WIS  16 Pewaukee to Oconomowoc, US-45 to West Bend, US 41/141 to the split, US-51 to Merrill and US-53 to Rice Lake.  US-10 and US-45 in Winnebago Co are questionable.

[peterj920]

U.S. 10/45 would have a continuous stretch of 70 mph from I-41 so I think they'd be great candidates to upgrade to 70.  U.S. 12 also in the Lake Geneva area.  Was in Wausau and the reduced speed signs were right at the I-39 terminus.  Will be interesting if the DOT plans to keep them those signs short or long term.

[GeekJedi]

They do...if they take I-94 to I-39.

[JREwing78]

Politico has a nice, in-depth article discussing the hard budget choices the Wisconsin legislature encountered this session, and a discussion about how it ties into the larger national infrastructure funding crisis.

Politico: Overpasses: A love story
http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/07/transportation-infrastructure-scott-walker-highways-000153?hp=t1_r#

[GeekJedi]

Then the "no less than 70" isn't needed, at least on segments that aren't 100% freeway compatible (IE: limited access via interchanges)!

[peterj920]

Politico has a nice, in-depth article discussing the hard budget choices the Wisconsin legislature encountered this session, and a discussion about how it ties into the larger national infrastructure funding crisis.

Politico: Overpasses: A love story
http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/07/transportation-infrastructure-scott-walker-highways-000153?hp=t1_r#

Seems like the article focused a lot on not funding public transportation.  If enough people ride buses and trains, they would be self sufficient and wouldn't need to be subsidized.  Hardly anyone would use a commuter line to the suburbs or rail from Madison to Milwaukee since its way more convenient to drive, and the fares would probably be more expensive than driving.  Transit is needed for people that can't get around and the current bus system is adequate.  Trains would be a complete waste and the streetcar in Milwaukee will soon prove it.  As for Chicago to Minneapolis high speed rail, it would be a complete waste of money.  People already fly between the 2 cities and it's way more convenient and faster than s train.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

It's a double-edge sword. If public transit was more convenient, more people would use it - of course, that would mean putting much more money into it than we are right now. Trust me, when I went to Chicago on a day trip last year I was more than happy to drop my car at Rosemont Station and let buses and trains ferry me around for the day. I think more people dislike driving than we realize and would really rather other people do it for them, but that's just not possible for most people.

Unfortunately, public transit in the US still has the strong stigma attached that only poor people and hippies use it.

[peterj920]

It's a double-edge sword. If public transit was more convenient, more people would use it - of course, that would mean putting much more money into it than we are right now. Trust me, when I went to Chicago on a day trip last year I was more than happy to drop my car at Rosemont Station and let buses and trains ferry me around for the day. I think more people dislike driving than we realize and would really rather other people do it for them, but that's just not possible for most people.

Unfortunately, public transit in the US still has the strong stigma attached that only poor people and hippies use it.

In Chicago, public transit works great because they have a higher population and most places that people need to go are Downtown.  In a lot of other metro areas, everything is so spread out all over the city.  I do not understand why cities would want a street car.  They're slow and disrupt traffic.  It would be a lot cheaper and efficient to paint a dedicated bus lane and run a bus instead. 

[SSOWorld]

Wisconsin does not have the rider base to support trains unlike the Northeast Corridor. High Speed Rail is totally and completely a political tool in this state.  Doyle advocated it so much that he brokered a deal right before leaving office - only for it to be appropriately squashed by Walker's trashing of it.

Moland - enough with the NIMBY shit.  everyone has their views.

[SEWIGuy]

You stupid NIMBY. Time is money, and that's all I'm going to say about this subject.

What kind of response is that?  You really think people are going to care about your POV with that kind of crap?

[JREwing78]

Wisconsin does not have the rider base to support trains unlike the Northeast Corridor. High Speed Rail is totally and completely a political tool in this state.  Doyle advocated it so much that he brokered a deal right before leaving office - only for it to be appropriately squashed by Walker's trashing of it.

The massive fleet of VanGalder buses ferrying people along the I-90 corridor between Madison and Chicago would suggest there is, indeed, a rider base. Doyle also had a $700 million cash infusion to pay for the buildout of the high-speed rail to Madison. The $7 million a year to run it would've been a pittance compared with other transportation projects in the state. Instead, politics and a rural-v.s.-urban mentality killed it. Totally, colossally stupid move - but that's par for the course.

What the wingnuts who voted for Walker didn't grasp was that the $700 million not spent here got spent somewhere else, on trains! (In other words, the money's "wasted" anyway!) The considerable number of people who would've taken the train from Madison are instead clogging I-90 and I-94.

[DaBigE]

Wisconsin does not have the rider base to support trains unlike the Northeast Corridor. High Speed Rail is totally and completely a political tool in this state.  Doyle advocated it so much that he brokered a deal right before leaving office - only for it to be appropriately squashed by Walker's trashing of it.

The massive fleet of VanGalder buses ferrying people along the I-90 corridor between Madison and Chicago would suggest there is, indeed, a rider base. Doyle also had a $700 million cash infusion to pay for the buildout of the high-speed rail to Madison. The $7 million a year to run it would've been a pittance compared with other transportation projects in the state. Instead, politics and a rural-v.s.-urban mentality killed it. Totally, colossally stupid move - but that's par for the course.

What the wingnuts who voted for Walker didn't grasp was that the $700 million not spent here got spent somewhere else, on trains! (In other words, the money's "wasted" anyway!) The considerable number of people who would've taken the train from Madison are instead clogging I-90 and I-94.

$700M spent on trains wouldn't negate the need to rebuild the Zoo or Verona Rd or expand I-39 from IL to Madison (unless you move all the truck traffic to freight rail). We'd be stuck with $700M on top of many of these projects. Based on where the money went after Wisconsin turned it down, we'd be lucky if the bill was only $700M for initial construction. Look at the budget mess we're in without the train. That would be $14M more in maintenance that wouldn't be able to occur in the next biennium.

[SEWIGuy]

I don't really care what GeekJedi thinks of my point of view. I'm sorry, I get defensive when people think that major freeways shouldn't be at least 70 mph. 65 mph feels like a crawl.

You are talking saving less than 5 minutes on a drive of about 65 miles.  Clearly important enough to flip out on a discussion board.   

[JREwing78]

Wisconsin does not have the rider base to support trains unlike the Northeast Corridor. High Speed Rail is totally and completely a political tool in this state.  Doyle advocated it so much that he brokered a deal right before leaving office - only for it to be appropriately squashed by Walker's trashing of it.

The massive fleet of VanGalder buses ferrying people along the I-90 corridor between Madison and Chicago would suggest there is, indeed, a rider base. Doyle also had a $700 million cash infusion to pay for the buildout of the high-speed rail to Madison. The $7 million a year to run it would've been a pittance compared with other transportation projects in the state. Instead, politics and a rural-v.s.-urban mentality killed it. Totally, colossally stupid move - but that's par for the course.

What the wingnuts who voted for Walker didn't grasp was that the $700 million not spent here got spent somewhere else, on trains! (In other words, the money's "wasted" anyway!) The considerable number of people who would've taken the train from Madison are instead clogging I-90 and I-94.

$700M spent on trains wouldn't negate the need to rebuild the Zoo or Verona Rd or expand I-39 from IL to Madison (unless you move all the truck traffic to freight rail). We'd be stuck with $700M on top of many of these projects. Based on where the money went after Wisconsin turned it down, we'd be lucky if the bill was only $700M for initial construction. Look at the budget mess we're in without the train. That would be $14M more in maintenance that wouldn't be able to occur in the next biennium.

We'd be exactly in the same position, except we'd have a train. That $700 million was gift-wrapped from the Feds - and we said "Nope! We don't want it!!" So it got spent by other states (like Michigan, for example). So much for fiscal responsibility.

$14 million in maintenance (over 2 years) is a drop in the bucket by comparison. Bumping the gas tax up a penny pays for that several times over - and nobody would notice the difference.