Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?

[ClassicHasClass]

Interesting. I don't think I ever had to service the timing chain on my last Civic Si (2008). This Si (2018) is up to about 120K now.

[formulanone]

Interesting. I don't think I ever had to service the timing chain on my last Civic Si (2008). This Si (2018) is up to about 120K now.

I don't think the timing chain is considered a "wear item" since it should last at least 200,000 miles; whereas a timing/camshaft belt might have a 50,000-90,000 mile life for most non-performance vehicles.

Speaking of the Si, it's on my short list since it's stick, seemingly fun to drive, affordable, and actually practical.

[kkt]

I have driven a manual--just once.  It was my father's 1981 Toyota Corolla Tercel.  I must have stalled it at least ten times trying to put the clutch in so I could move away from the curb.  Toward the end of that short drive, I took a right turn at close to 20 MPH because I couldn't figure out how to gear down for it.  Thereafter, by tacit mutual agreement, the possibility of further lessons was not mentioned.

Two years later he bought a new car.  I kind of wish we had hung on to the Tercel for further training in stick-shift driving:  the secretary he sold it to totalled it a month later.

My mom had a Tercel from that era.  Might have been 1980?  It was actually her favorite car of all time.  Manual transmission, crank windows, got as much as 55 mpg on the highway (without a turbocharger), high clearance to go over Forest Service roads to geology field camps, and extremely reliable.  About every 5 years or so the bolts holding on the muffler would rust through, she'd go get it and throw it in the trunk, and order a new one - but it didn't strand the car.  Nothing else other than tires and oil for about 20 years.

edit:  fixed quote.  sigh.

[jakeroot]

Two years later he bought a new car.  I kind of wish we had hung on to the Tercel for further training in stick-shift driving:  the secretary he sold it to totalled it a month later.

I was supposed to learn how to drive on a late-80s Subaru XT with manual transmission. Ultimately it was sold off a few years before I got my permit. Unfortunately, rather than it being totaled, it was stripped for parts overnight by a group of no-goods and left inoperable. It ended up in a junkyard, to the best of my knowledge.

Curiously, I would end up learning manual transmission on my Uncle's early 2000s Hyundai Tiburon, and then a few more cars over the years, before just buying my own brand new in June 2015 (my VW Golf TDI that I've brought up before). I'm 28 now (possible Gen-Z depending on viewpoint), and have since spent a plurality of my driving life in a manual transmission.

[kphoger]

My mom had a Tercel from that era.  Might have been 1980?  It was actually her favorite car of all time.  Manual transmission, crank windows, got as much as 55 mpg on the highway (without a turbocharger), high clearance to go over Forest Service roads to geology field camps, and extremely reliable.  About every 5 years or so the bolts holding on the muffler would rust through, she'd go get it and throw it in the trunk, and order a new one - but it didn't strand the car.  Nothing else other than tires and oil for about 20 years.

I've grown up on Toyotas.  The first family car I remember was a 1985 Corolla hatchback stick shift.  Then came a 1988 Camry sedan stick shift.  Then the '85 was traded in for a 1992 Camry wagon automatic.  I learned to drive on the '88.  Later, my dad gave the '88 to my aunt and bought a 1997 Camry sedan stick shift to replace it.  My senior year in high school, my sister handed me down a 1995 Corolla sedan stick shift (the one that a fellow college student totaled).  Several years later, I briefly owned a 1987 Corolla hatchback stick shift.

Anyway, I bring this up to say that my dad's method was to buy a muffler from Sears with their lifetime warranty—knowing that Toyotas tend to rust out the muffler.  A couple of years later, as the muffler was rusting out, he'd redeem the warranty and get a new free muffler.  Rinse and repeat.

During the brief time I owned that '87 Corolla (this was in 2005 or so), the tailpipe rusted through near the muffler.  I had no money at the time, so I just kind of lined the two halves up with each other and tied them like that with baling wire.

[Takumi]

Interesting. I don't think I ever had to service the timing chain on my last Civic Si (2008). This Si (2018) is up to about 120K now.

I don't think the timing chain is considered a "wear item" since it should last at least 200,000 miles; whereas a timing/camshaft belt might have a 50,000-90,000 mile life for most non-performance vehicles.

Speaking of the Si, it's on my short list since it's stick, seemingly fun to drive, affordable, and actually practical.

You may also consider the Integra A-Spec Tech, which is the same mechanically, has a few extra features, a liftback, and is less prone to dealer markups.

[formulanone]

Interesting. I don't think I ever had to service the timing chain on my last Civic Si (2008). This Si (2018) is up to about 120K now.

I don't think the timing chain is considered a "wear item" since it should last at least 200,000 miles; whereas a timing/camshaft belt might have a 50,000-90,000 mile life for most non-performance vehicles.

Speaking of the Si, it's on my short list since it's stick, seemingly fun to drive, affordable, and actually practical.

You may also consider the Integra A-Spec Tech, which is the same mechanically, has a few extra features, a liftback, and is less prone to dealer markups.

Still seems like a $40K car to me, and I'm starting to wince somewhat at that price point (mainly because I'll probably only drive it 5-8K miles a year). I also don't need nor want a lot of the electronic add-ons.

As an aside, I first drove stick on my father's '90 Integra GS. Darn thing was stolen and stripped out about two years later.

[kkt]

My mom had a Tercel from that era.  Might have been 1980?  It was actually her favorite car of all time.  Manual transmission, crank windows, got as much as 55 mpg on the highway (without a turbocharger), high clearance to go over Forest Service roads to geology field camps, and extremely reliable.  About every 5 years or so the bolts holding on the muffler would rust through, she'd go get it and throw it in the trunk, and order a new one - but it didn't strand the car.  Nothing else other than tires and oil for about 20 years.

I've grown up on Toyotas.  The first family car I remember was a 1985 Corolla hatchback stick shift.  Then came a 1988 Camry sedan stick shift.  Then the '85 was traded in for a 1992 Camry wagon automatic.  I learned to drive on the '88.  Later, my dad gave the '88 to my aunt and bought a 1997 Camry sedan stick shift to replace it.  My senior year in high school, my sister handed me down a 1995 Corolla sedan stick shift (the one that a fellow college student totaled).  Several years later, I briefly owned a 1987 Corolla hatchback stick shift.

Anyway, I bring this up to say that my dad's method was to buy a muffler from Sears with their lifetime warranty—knowing that Toyotas tend to rust out the muffler.  A couple of years later, as the muffler was rusting out, he'd redeem the warranty and get a new free muffler.  Rinse and repeat.

During the brief time I owned that '87 Corolla (this was in 2005 or so), the tailpipe rusted through near the muffler.  I had no money at the time, so I just kind of lined the two halves up with each other and tied them like that with baling wire.

Oh, the other thing was that when my mom moved from 3/4 mile from her work to about 3 miles from her work the muffler rusting
out problem went away.  Just needed the car to get fully warmed up every time.

[ClassicHasClass]

Interesting. I don't think I ever had to service the timing chain on my last Civic Si (2008). This Si (2018) is up to about 120K now.

I don't think the timing chain is considered a "wear item" since it should last at least 200,000 miles; whereas a timing/camshaft belt might have a 50,000-90,000 mile life for most non-performance vehicles.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I've had timing belts go bang, but never had any issues with timing chains.

Speaking of the Si, it's on my short list since it's stick, seemingly fun to drive, affordable, and actually practical.

I like it and it is indeed fun to drive. The current turbo isn't as fizzy as the prior hi-revving VTECs were, but you don't have to wind it up the same way either. Wouldn't have minded a hatch but it's a good daily driver even as a sedan.

[kphoger]

I've had timing belts go bang, but never had any issues with timing chains.

I have.

My previous vehicle had three timing chains.  On on one of them, the plastic guides broke, which meant that the chain could have slipped off the guide (not good).  After replacement, the chain jumped a tooth and had to be re-set.

In my current vehicle, the timing chain developed a tiny bit of slack, which does happen over time.  A few months after I had the kit replaced, the new chain broke, wound itself up, and stalled the engine (glad I wasn't moving).

[J N Winkler]

Regarding timing chains versus timing belts, these are the stylized facts:

*  Timing chains are supposed to last the life of the car, and generally do so if the timing system is properly designed and the engine oil is changed in accord with a maintenance schedule that prevents sludging and exhaustion of acid buffering.  "Properly designed" is a big if with some makers.  "Changed in accord with a maintenance schedule . . ." is an equally big if for many owners.  (I suspect the maintenance Takumi talks about for a specific Honda model consists mostly of taking off the cam cover for visual inspection of the chain and guides.  That is more than most makers call for.)

*  Timing belts are supposed to be replaced at regular intervals, typically ranging from 60,000 miles (e.g., a mid-1980's Nissan Maxima) to 90,000 miles (e.g., Toyotas from the mid-1990's onward).  When a timing belt is replaced, it is common, but far from universal, practice to put a sticker on the timing belt case with the date and mileage.  DIY'ers often don't bother.  Some dealers are not above putting a sticker on even if the work hasn't actually been done.

With a used car of sufficient mileage, you are rolling the dice on whether required maintenance (including oil changes, not to mention timing belt replacement) has been performed.  And with some models, you are gambling on engine longevity, full stop:  for example, I will never buy a car powered by an Ecotec engine because of GM's grotesquely boneheaded decision to drive the water pump off the timing chain.

[kphoger]

"Properly designed" is a big if with some makers.  "Changed in accord with a maintenance schedule . . ." is an equally big if for many owners.

As a confluence of the two big ifs, our '09 Chevrolet Traverse has an issue where, ever if there is still enough oil in it to be easily visible on a dipstick check, the oil will still slosh around inside the timing cover when turning left to cause chain rattle.  It is completely unnatural to think that the solution to "rattling noise when turning left" is "top off with motor oil to the FULL line", but it is.

I suspect the maintenance Takumi talks about for a specific Honda model consists mostly of taking off the cam cover for visual inspection of the chain and guides.

Some inspection can be done by scope as well, depending on the model I suppose.

[Stephane Dumas]

Sligthly off-topic, I spotted some clips of people driving a "three on the tree", some people driving 3-speed manual transmissions located on the column.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCIj0N2WcKQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM6FQsP2XRY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-8o7QJXM44

Could you imagine a 6-speed manual on the tree?

[kphoger]

Could you imagine a 6-speed manual on the tree?

I've been in a Fiat motorhome that had a 5-speed manual on the tree.  I wasn't the driver, though.

[Brandon]

Sligthly off-topic, I spotted some clips of people driving a "three on the tree", some people driving 3-speed manual transmissions located on the column.

Could you imagine a 6-speed manual on the tree?

Yes.  If you know how to drive a manual, it really doesn't matter much where the shifter is, how many gears there are, or even if they're a dogleg between 1st and 2nd, you can drive it with a little practice.

Personally, to answer the OP's question, I strongly prefer manual.  So much so that I actually despise having to drive an automatic or any kind.  I like the control over what the vehicle is doing as well as over the vehicle's speed that a manual gives me.  I rented a car (Chevrolet Trailblazer) for the Atlanta meet last weekend.  Of course, it was an automatic.  I found that it's much harder to control the speed of the vehicle without constantly looking at the speedometer in the automatic.  Once I got back to Midway and drove my manual 2017 6-sp Jeep Renegade home, I found it much easier to know how fast I was going without constantly looking at the speedometer.  I just knew my preferred upper and lower limits for each gear and what gear I was in.

[freebrickproductions]

With an automatic, I've found that if I'm in an area where I don't have to worry about stop-and-go traffic or a bunch of traffic lights close together, and I want to keep about a certain speed, I can just set the cruise control to the desired speed, even within cities.

[Takumi]

I don't think I ever answered the question. Automatic for daily commuting, manual for "fun" driving. Although I think a good paddle shift system is the best of both worlds.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

I don't think I ever answered the question. Automatic for daily commuting, manual for "fun" driving. Although I think a good paddle shift system is the best of both worlds.

I figure my next car will be a paddle shift. I had enough trouble finding a manual, back in the height of covid (Sept. 2020), that I fear my current car will be last manual (after 35 years).

[ClassicHasClass]

I don't think I ever answered the question. Automatic for daily commuting, manual for "fun" driving. Although I think a good paddle shift system is the best of both worlds.

I tried to get into paddle shifters but I find I miss the clutch nearly as much as the gearshift (for coasting, mind you - I don't miss it when launching).

[Rothman]

I find paddle shifters fun...but perhaps too much fun.  Makes driving feel toy-ish.

[MikieTimT]

Manuals are better in passing scenarios.  Very little lag in acceleration dropping from 5th directly to 3rd, which isn't possible in almost any form of automatic, paddle or otherwise.  Even in a moderately powerful car like a stock WRX, makes passing situations easy to wrap up in about 4-5 seconds in short passing zones like are common in Arkansas 2 lane highways.

[kphoger]

Manuals are better in passing scenarios.  Very little lag in acceleration dropping from 5th directly to 3rd, which isn't possible in almost any form of automatic, paddle or otherwise.  Even in a moderately powerful car like a stock WRX, makes passing situations easy to wrap up in about 4-5 seconds in short passing zones like are common in Arkansas 2 lane highways.

he he he.

Last year, when we were on a church mission trip in Mexico, we rented a Nissan pickup (basically a Frontier) with six-speed manual.  I did all the driving during that trip, as I was familiar with the roads.  But, for the return trip, our pastor really wanted to drive the rental, so I took over from my wife in driving our personal vehicle.  As we were driving through the mountains on one of those two-lane highways where you pass right down the middle, I moved out over the centerline to pass a truck, and then Pastor moved out to follow.  In doing so, he downshifted from fifth to fourth gear for the extra oomph.  Well, that was the plan anyway:  instead, he accidentally dropped from fifth into second.  I think he said the tach needle hit seven.

[XamotCGC]

Automatic by default. I wouldn't know how to drive a manual.

[kphoger]

I don't know.

FTFY

[MikieTimT]

Manuals are better in passing scenarios.  Very little lag in acceleration dropping from 5th directly to 3rd, which isn't possible in almost any form of automatic, paddle or otherwise.  Even in a moderately powerful car like a stock WRX, makes passing situations easy to wrap up in about 4-5 seconds in short passing zones like are common in Arkansas 2 lane highways.

he he he.

Last year, when we were on a church mission trip in Mexico, we rented a Nissan pickup (basically a Frontier) with six-speed manual.  I did all the driving during that trip, as I was familiar with the roads.  But, for the return trip, our pastor really wanted to drive the rental, so I took over from my wife in driving our personal vehicle.  As we were driving through the mountains on one of those two-lane highways where you pass right down the middle, I moved out over the centerline to pass a truck, and then Pastor moved out to follow.  In doing so, he downshifted from fifth to fourth gear for the extra oomph.  Well, that was the plan anyway:  instead, he accidentally dropped from fifth into second.  I think he said the tach needle hit seven.

Slightly higher than a WRX (non-STI) redline for sure, but I'd bet Mexican rentals with standard transmissions lead a harder life than my car.  The Nissan probably handled it fine, though.  Valves on non-performance vehicles likely don't start floating until a few hundred RPM higher than that.