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HAWK Thread

Started by MCRoads, December 11, 2017, 10:17:20 AM

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What cycle do you like?

original HAWK
modified HAWK
what is a HAWK signal?
I like RYG ped signals.

jakeroot

Quote from: US 89 on November 19, 2018, 04:22:57 PM
Quote from: Jet380 on November 19, 2018, 08:11:51 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 18, 2018, 07:27:01 PM
Interesting. At that point, you may as well install a two-orb signal, where the bottom is amber and the top is red. Bottom amber would flash 24/7, and the top would go red when walk sign is on. Then to flashing red for a bit, and then back to flashing yellow. Might even be allowed under current regulation.

And at that point, you may as well add a green aspect and it becomes a modified pelican crossing.

Another thing you could do is have a three-section signal, but make the bottom a flashing yellow instead of green (similar to a flashing yellow arrow). The middle solid yellow would be to emphasize a change from flashing yellow to solid red. I see it working like this:

flashing yellow --> solid yellow --> solid red --> flashing red --> flashing yellow --> etc...

I thought about that as well, but that's just a US emergency signal (Canada uses two orbs). Typically the bottom orb is 8-inch and the top two 12-inch.

One issue that I thought of overnight was that drivers may stop for people waiting to cross even on flashing yellow. Flashing beacons at crosswalks, like these that flash 24/7, others that flash when a button is pushed, or RRFBs, specifically use flashing yellow indications to get drivers to stop and give way to peds waiting to cross. Thing is, we wouldn't want drivers stopping on flashing yellow, since it will go red for peds when they push the button.

I think this is why I'd still prefer a flashing green indication.


Amtrakprod

Quote from: US 89 on November 19, 2018, 04:22:57 PM
Quote from: Jet380 on November 19, 2018, 08:11:51 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 18, 2018, 07:27:01 PM
Interesting. At that point, you may as well install a two-orb signal, where the bottom is amber and the top is red. Bottom amber would flash 24/7, and the top would go red when walk sign is on. Then to flashing red for a bit, and then back to flashing yellow. Might even be allowed under current regulation.

And at that point, you may as well add a green aspect and it becomes a modified pelican crossing.



Another thing you could do is have a three-section signal, but make the bottom a flashing yellow instead of green (similar to a flashing yellow arrow). The middle solid yellow would be to emphasize a change from flashing yellow to solid red. I see it working like this:

flashing yellow --> solid yellow --> solid red --> flashing red --> flashing yellow --> etc...
So you would want this:
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

jakeroot

^^
That's the most clever thing California has ever done with traffic signals. Funny that one actually exists!

Amtrakprod

Quote from: jakeroot on November 19, 2018, 07:17:51 PM
^^
That's the most clever thing California has ever done with traffic signals. Funny that one actually exists!
Lol, everyone thinks that cali is like textbook MUTCD but they are creative.
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jakeroot

Quote from: kphoger on November 19, 2018, 09:19:30 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 19, 2018, 08:15:08 PM
everyone no one thinks that cali is like textbook MUTCD

FTFY.

Haha yeah I wouldn't call them textbook MUTCD at all, but they are not normally too crafty. They have great signal placement, but they lack innovation overall. The sheer number of fully protected lefts in CA in maddening. I feel like they treat every road the same when no two roads are.

roadfro

Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 19, 2018, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 19, 2018, 04:22:57 PM
Quote from: Jet380 on November 19, 2018, 08:11:51 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 18, 2018, 07:27:01 PM
Interesting. At that point, you may as well install a two-orb signal, where the bottom is amber and the top is red. Bottom amber would flash 24/7, and the top would go red when walk sign is on. Then to flashing red for a bit, and then back to flashing yellow. Might even be allowed under current regulation.

And at that point, you may as well add a green aspect and it becomes a modified pelican crossing.

Another thing you could do is have a three-section signal, but make the bottom a flashing yellow instead of green (similar to a flashing yellow arrow). The middle solid yellow would be to emphasize a change from flashing yellow to solid red. I see it working like this:

flashing yellow --> solid yellow --> solid red --> flashing red --> flashing yellow --> etc...
So you would want this:


I'd prefer this to a HAWK any day. It is the same basic function as a HAWK, without the unusual display configuration of a HAWK, and it seems much more intuitive (not needing explanatory signs).

Although I still think a Pelican crossing would be superior to both.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Amtrakprod

Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 21, 2018, 01:49:36 PM
What about this:


Absolutely not. Flashing yellow means the cross street has flashing red, and more importantly, flashing yellow cannot suddenly turn to solid red. (Note the car at 0:19 in the video.)

I also believe that flashing green should only be used where there is no cross street, although there is no official standard for this yet.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

jakeroot

Quote from: 1 on November 21, 2018, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 21, 2018, 01:49:36 PM
What about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hhhyUuWb8c

Absolutely not. Flashing yellow means the cross street has flashing red, and more importantly, flashing yellow cannot suddenly turn to solid red. (Note the car at 0:19 in the video.)

I'm sure that was in error. If someone contacts the city, I bet they'd fix it.

Car at 0:19 doesn't do anything wrong. I don't see an NTOR sign. On the other hand, that "Stop on Red" sign is rather redundant.

I quite like this signal. Interesting to see a new install of flashing green. I thought the MUTCD disallowed them.

Quote from: 1 on November 21, 2018, 01:57:53 PM
I also believe that flashing green should only be used where there is no cross street, although there is no official standard for this yet.

I don't see why. BC's flashing greens are used any time the crosswalk is ped-activated, regardless if there's a cross-street. Further, the heaviest crosswalks are usually at intersections, where these would be most helpful.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: jakeroot on November 21, 2018, 03:31:22 PM
Car at 0:19 doesn't do anything wrong.

The car clearly didn't come close to stopping on red.

Quote
I quite like this signal. Interesting to see a new install of flashing green. I thought the MUTCD disallowed them.

Delaware used flashing green at intersections where the cross street had a flashing red.  The intent was that cars at the flashing red could go when it was safe to do so.  The flashing green warned drivers that there could be cross traffic, and that the light could go from flashing green to either steady green or steady yellow (I forget which) then to steady red, giving cross traffic a steady green if the traffic was waiting there too long.

They eventually did away with them - too many accidents.  I don't think any have existed for years in Delaware.

Delaware's a state where they try different things.  They still use a flashing red left arrow, which much of the country now has as a flashing yellow arrow.  They're also one of the few that allow open alcohol containers in the vehicle as long as the driver isn't the one drinking.

hotdogPi

I only mentioned the 0:19 car to show that it was a three-way intersection and not solely a pedestrian signal.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

jakeroot

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2018, 03:40:55 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 21, 2018, 03:31:22 PM
Car at 0:19 doesn't do anything wrong.

The car clearly didn't come close to stopping on red.

No stop line visible in the video, so no way to be sure.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2018, 03:40:55 PM
Delaware used flashing green at intersections where the cross street had a flashing red.  The intent was that cars at the flashing red could go when it was safe to do so.  The flashing green warned drivers that there could be cross traffic, and that the light could go from flashing green to either steady green or steady yellow (I forget which) then to steady red, giving cross traffic a steady green if the traffic was waiting there too long.

They eventually did away with them - too many accidents.  I don't think any have existed for years in Delaware.

Delaware's a state where they try different things.  They still use a flashing red left arrow, which much of the country now has as a flashing yellow arrow.  They're also one of the few that allow open alcohol containers in the vehicle as long as the driver isn't the one drinking.

I'm not sure if it's fair to blame the flashing green for any danger. It's entirely possible that a full signal should have been used at those intersections instead. After all, it's just an intersection with a stop sign.

I seem to remember reading about that open container law when I was in Rehoboth last August. Reminds me of NOLA.

Amtrakprod

A red flashing bulb has replaced the flashing yellow
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

roadfro

Quote from: jakeroot on November 21, 2018, 03:31:22 PM
Quote from: 1 on November 21, 2018, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 21, 2018, 01:49:36 PM
What about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hhhyUuWb8c

Absolutely not. Flashing yellow means the cross street has flashing red, and more importantly, flashing yellow cannot suddenly turn to solid red. (Note the car at 0:19 in the video.)

I'm sure that was in error. If someone contacts the city, I bet they'd fix it.

Car at 0:19 doesn't do anything wrong. I don't see an NTOR sign. On the other hand, that "Stop on Red" sign is rather redundant.

I quite like this signal. Interesting to see a new install of flashing green. I thought the MUTCD disallowed them.

Flashing yellow does not automatically mean that a cross street has any particular indication–it means proceed with caution and yield if necessary. It just so happens that traditionally a flashing yellow typically encounters flashing red on a side street.

Flashing green is prohibited in MUTCD 4D.04 (Meaning of Vehicular Signal Indications), paragraph 3: "D.  A flashing green signal indication has no meaning and shall not be used."  I'm really curious how this got implemented...

I don't mind the flashing green used in this video...but what difference would it make if it were a steady green instead?
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

NoGoodNamesAvailable

Quote from: roadfro on November 21, 2018, 11:08:27 PM
Flashing green is prohibited in MUTCD 4D.04 (Meaning of Vehicular Signal Indications), paragraph 3: "D.  A flashing green signal indication has no meaning and shall not be used."  I'm really curious how this got implemented...

In some eastern Canadian provinces, it indicates or used to indicate a protected left turn, and in BC it's the rest indication for a signalized pedestrian crossing where vehicular cross traffic is unsignalized. There is a pretty fatal misinterpretation that can result from the multiple meanings of this indication, so the US said "screw this mess" and banned it entirely.

jakeroot

Quote from: roadfro on November 21, 2018, 11:08:27 PM
I don't mind the flashing green used in this video...but what difference would it make if it were a steady green instead?

There's a couple things I've come to appreciate in regards to how BC uses them: it's a helpful reminder to watch for cross-traffic, as flashing greens are very often used at three or four way intersections. If these were solid green lights, it might give the impression that someone was running a red light. It's also a reminder that the light is not part of a sequence, and could change at any time (though it does go solid green briefly before yellow>red).

Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on November 21, 2018, 11:28:15 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 21, 2018, 11:08:27 PM
Flashing green is prohibited in MUTCD 4D.04 (Meaning of Vehicular Signal Indications), paragraph 3: "D.  A flashing green signal indication has no meaning and shall not be used."  I'm really curious how this got implemented...

In some eastern Canadian provinces, it indicates or used to indicate a protected left turn, and in BC it's the rest indication for a signalized pedestrian crossing where vehicular cross traffic is unsignalized. There is a pretty fatal misinterpretation that can result from the multiple meanings of this indication, so the US said "screw this mess" and banned it entirely.

To the best of my knowledge, the "protected" meaning (limited to Ontario, IIRC) has long since been abandoned in favor of using green arrows, either flashing or solid (provincial choice). Some installations remain, but are hard to come by.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 04:51:19 AM
Quote from: roadfro on November 21, 2018, 11:08:27 PM
I don't mind the flashing green used in this video...but what difference would it make if it were a steady green instead?

There's a couple things I've come to appreciate in regards to how BC uses them: it's a helpful reminder to watch for cross-traffic, as flashing greens are very often used at three or four way intersections. If these were solid green lights, it might give the impression that someone was running a red light. It's also a reminder that the light is not part of a sequence, and could change at any time (though it does go solid green briefly before yellow>red).

Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on November 21, 2018, 11:28:15 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 21, 2018, 11:08:27 PM
Flashing green is prohibited in MUTCD 4D.04 (Meaning of Vehicular Signal Indications), paragraph 3: "D.  A flashing green signal indication has no meaning and shall not be used."  I'm really curious how this got implemented...

In some eastern Canadian provinces, it indicates or used to indicate a protected left turn, and in BC it's the rest indication for a signalized pedestrian crossing where vehicular cross traffic is unsignalized. There is a pretty fatal misinterpretation that can result from the multiple meanings of this indication, so the US said "screw this mess" and banned it entirely.

To the best of my knowledge, the "protected" meaning (limited to Ontario, IIRC) has long since been abandoned in favor of using green arrows, either flashing or solid (provincial choice). Some installations remain, but are hard to come by.
Jake's right, it's not used like that anymore.
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 07:04:38 AM
Jake's right, it's not used like that anymore.

There are a bunch of "protected" blinking green lights in Montréal.

Maybe they're waiting to finish road construction before replacing them?  :)

MikeTheActuary

...and now for the main reason I bumped the thread.

My father got a traffic ticket today, for proceeding through a HAWK signal during the flashing red phase (after coming to a complete stop, and bicyclists having cleared the crossing).

That caused me to go digging up the federal guidelines on HAWK...and I ran across this sign:



(Sorry about the quality -- it's from a FHWA guide.)

Amtrakprod

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 17, 2018, 07:36:38 PM
...and now for the main reason I bumped the thread.

My father got a traffic ticket today, for proceeding through a HAWK signal during the flashing red phase (after coming to a complete stop, and bicyclists having cleared the crossing).

That caused me to go digging up the federal guidelines on HAWK...and I ran across this sign:



(Sorry about the quality -- it's from a FHWA guide.)
Take it up with the court, go to the location and send us pictures


iPhone
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: Amtrakprod on December 17, 2018, 07:39:01 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 17, 2018, 07:36:38 PM
...and now for the main reason I bumped the thread.

My father got a traffic ticket today, for proceeding through a HAWK signal during the flashing red phase (after coming to a complete stop, and bicyclists having cleared the crossing).

That caused me to go digging up the federal guidelines on HAWK...and I ran across this sign:



(Sorry about the quality -- it's from a FHWA guide.)
Take it up with the court, go to the location and send us pictures


iPhone

Just to clarify, the image I posed was an FHWA image from "Washington" (which "Washington" wasn't specified).

Here's the site of the ticket: https://goo.gl/maps/DiSauNF7HcE2

Obviously, under bog-standard HAWK, what he says he did was perfectly legal, despite local custom being to remain stopped through the flashing red phase.

When I go down in a few days, I'm going to take a look at the ticket and see how long he has to resolve the ticket.  (My father has always been...scattered and disorganized.  That hasn't improved since my mother passed a couple of years ago.  I've taken over my mother's old job of paying bills, doing "paperwork stuff"....).  Most likely I will end up just paying it, but if I can get him a court date that aligns with my travel schedule...then we might fight it.

roadfro

#72
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 17, 2018, 09:23:25 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on December 17, 2018, 07:39:01 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 17, 2018, 07:36:38 PM
...and now for the main reason I bumped the thread.

My father got a traffic ticket today, for proceeding through a HAWK signal during the flashing red phase (after coming to a complete stop, and bicyclists having cleared the crossing).

That caused me to go digging up the federal guidelines on HAWK...and I ran across this sign:



(Sorry about the quality -- it's from a FHWA guide.)
Take it up with the court, go to the location and send us pictures


iPhone

Just to clarify, the image I posed was an FHWA image from "Washington" (which "Washington" wasn't specified).

Here's the site of the ticket: https://goo.gl/maps/DiSauNF7HcE2

Obviously, under bog-standard HAWK, what he says he did was perfectly legal, despite local custom being to remain stopped through the flashing red phase.

When I go down in a few days, I'm going to take a look at the ticket and see how long he has to resolve the ticket.  (My father has always been...scattered and disorganized.  That hasn't improved since my mother passed a couple of years ago.  I've taken over my mother's old job of paying bills, doing "paperwork stuff"....).  Most likely I will end up just paying it, but if I can get him a court date that aligns with my travel schedule...then we might fight it.

If you do fight the ticket, you'll want to first look at the vehicle codes for your state, specifically for the statute(s) he was cited under, and be sure of your position. The national MUTCD text isn't exactly clear that it is ok to proceed on flashing red after a stop–that connect might be available via other documents on the MUTCD/FHWA website or maybe through local news articles covering the new installations in the area.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Jet380

That sucks, good luck fighting it (if that's what you choose to do).

Traffic control devices should be as intuitive as possible. HAWKs can't be very intuitive if a cop can't even get it right!

jamess

HAWKs are quite possibly the worst MUTCD decision of all time



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