I-95 through the Meadowlands

[roadman65]

For a long while Toms River in NJ was unincorporated until they decided to name the township it was part of as it.  It used to be a community inside the now defunct Dover Township.  So the situation of White River Junction is not unique as there are many others out there that use unincorporated towns and cities for control destinations.

Even Toms River is not the only other scenario, there is one other that I cannot remember at this time.  I had one yesterday to mention, but now it moved to the tip of my tongue.

[empirestate]

But regardless of that, I was asking about the difference in philosophy, not in jurisdiction. What is AASHTO's–or anybody's–rationale for choosing control cities, and why doesn't it lead them towards a solution like the old billboard in the photo?

This isn't a direct answer, but a modern analogue for the usage of boroughs in that sign...is the continued practice of local destinations along Los Angeles freeways, particularly the usage of "Hollywood" and "Echo Park" (and to some extent "San Pedro"), all locales in the Los Angeles city limits.  (This along with "Los Angeles" being used generally as a control destination referring to downtown specifically)

Are there other places where sub-sections of cities are used as primary control destinations along with or in lieu of the actual city name itself?

White River Junction, Vermont is a village within the town of Hartford, Vermont. WRJ is an I-91 control city, Hartford, VT is not.

Yes and no. White River Junction might be a CDP, but it is significantly more notable than Hartford, which in itself is not a notable destination. Going back in history, the area's rail station was (and still is) White River Junction. Hartford is also a town. That would be like NYSDOT having all of its exits in the town of Colonie use "Colonie" as the control instead of the hamlets currently used.

It would also be more akin to using a neighborhood name (such as in NYC) rather than the city name than it is to using a borough instead of the city. It comes down to the difference between place names that are areal in nature vs. those that are point-based. A New England-style town is really a further subdivision of the county–an areal division of the land. So you wouldn't tend to direct someone to this broad area of land, any more than you might expect to see a county as a signed destination. Instead, you'd use some localized, concentrated settlement, which often has the same name as the town, but in this case it doesn't.

(That's paragraph 1 of what could become a very long discussion of the topic, and one we're no strangers to around here.)

[cl94]

But regardless of that, I was asking about the difference in philosophy, not in jurisdiction. What is AASHTO's–or anybody's–rationale for choosing control cities, and why doesn't it lead them towards a solution like the old billboard in the photo?

This isn't a direct answer, but a modern analogue for the usage of boroughs in that sign...is the continued practice of local destinations along Los Angeles freeways, particularly the usage of "Hollywood" and "Echo Park" (and to some extent "San Pedro"), all locales in the Los Angeles city limits.  (This along with "Los Angeles" being used generally as a control destination referring to downtown specifically)

Are there other places where sub-sections of cities are used as primary control destinations along with or in lieu of the actual city name itself?

White River Junction, Vermont is a village within the town of Hartford, Vermont. WRJ is an I-91 control city, Hartford, VT is not.

Yes and no. White River Junction might be a CDP, but it is significantly more notable than Hartford, which in itself is not a notable destination. Going back in history, the area's rail station was (and still is) White River Junction. Hartford is also a town. That would be like NYSDOT having all of its exits in the town of Colonie use "Colonie" as the control instead of the hamlets currently used.

It would also be more akin to using a neighborhood name (such as in NYC) rather than the city name than it is to using a borough instead of the city. It comes down to the difference between place names that are areal in nature vs. those that are point-based. A New England-style town is really a further subdivision of the county–an areal division of the land. So you wouldn't tend to direct someone to this broad area of land, any more than you might expect to see a county as a signed destination. Instead, you'd use some localized, concentrated settlement, which often has the same name as the town, but in this case it doesn't.

(That's paragraph 1 of what could become a very long discussion of the topic, and one we're no strangers to around here.)

Precisely. New York towns are the same way. There's a decent example of a similar situation on the US 9 stub expressway in Albany. Control city on US 9 is Loudonville, which is an unincorporated community in the town of Colonie. Similar to the New England towns, in this part of New York, people typically use hamlet/neighborhood names instead of the town because a town in New York is little more than a county subdivision.

Heck, look at Long Island. Nassau County only has 3 towns and people only use village and hamlet names. People living in the town of Hempstead, for example, never use "Hempstead" unless referring to the village of the same name.

[roadman65]

NJDOT on US 202 North as it splits from NJ 23 in Wayne, NJ uses "Ramapo" instead of "Suffern" as a control city for its mileage sign.  Ramapo is the town and Suffern is a village in that town.  More people are familiar with the village name over the town.

[Pete from Boston]

NJDOT on US 202 North as it splits from NJ 23 in Wayne, NJ uses "Ramapo" instead of "Suffern" as a control city for its mileage sign.  Ramapo is the town and Suffern is a village in that town.  More people are familiar with the village name over the town.

This is one of those nonsensical things that results from overadhering to regulation.  Nobody uses "Ramapo" as a place name.  It would be akin to saying "I am going out to buy groceries in United States."  If someone asks how far to the Town of Ramapo, they are an alien from space trying to infiltrate our society.  Report them immediately.   

[vdeane]

Precisely. New York towns are the same way. There's a decent example of a similar situation on the US 9 stub expressway in Albany. Control city on US 9 is Loudonville, which is an unincorporated community in the town of Colonie. Similar to the New England towns, in this part of New York, people typically use hamlet/neighborhood names instead of the town because a town in New York is little more than a county subdivision.

The signs from I-90 also reference Arbor Hill, a neighborhood in Albany (and a rather notorious one).

[cl94]

NJDOT on US 202 North as it splits from NJ 23 in Wayne, NJ uses "Ramapo" instead of "Suffern" as a control city for its mileage sign.  Ramapo is the town and Suffern is a village in that town.  More people are familiar with the village name over the town.

This is one of those nonsensical things that results from overadhering to regulation.  Nobody uses "Ramapo" as a place name.  It would be akin to saying "I am going out to buy groceries in United States."  If someone asks how far to the Town of Ramapo, they are an alien from space trying to infiltrate our society.  Report them immediately.

Ramapo is only used as a destination when referring to the service area or maybe the tiny hamlet just north of Thruway Exit 15A.

[roadman65]

Its like the other way on US 202 where they use "Solebury" instead of "New Hope" for the same reason.  PA has townships instead of towns, but they are both the same in nature.  In this case, this is overadhering once again as whomever designed the sign just used what he researched on paper and did not take into consideration what the public uses when driving to the destination.

The mileage signs in NJ on cross state routes use the towns on both sides of the State Lines as reference points. In case of US 202 its Mahwah and Ramapo on the north end and Lambertville and Solebury on the south end.  Mahwah is the last community US 202 enters in NJ before crossing the border into Ramapo, NY where Suffern is in.   Lambertville is the last place US 202 is before leaving NJ into PA and Solebury is the first community after crossing the Delaware.  Apparently, US 202 does not enter New Hope proper after crossing the state line, so the records will show Solebury.  With Ramapo over Suffern, I will bet someone in NJDOT does not know what a village is even though Ridgefield Park, NJ is one of them.

[bzakharin]

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

[Pete from Boston]

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

Correct. There is no organized sub-municipal government in New Jersey like there is New York.  Village, borough, city, and township are all municipalities organized differently but on the same level.

[roadman65]

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

I rest my case.

Obviously when NJDOT selected control points for mileage signs, they were looking at the large entity beneath the county level, so they came up with Ramapo and being Suffern is part of that it would be like considering Iselin, which is part of Woodbridge Township, as one if a road went there to terminate which I am sure they would use Woodbridge. Even though Suffern has a government of its own and Iselin does not, to a NJ thinker it may not be realized.

BTW, I think NJ only has three villages.  Ridgefield Park, South Orange, and Loch Arbour are the only ones incorporated as such.

[bzakharin]

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

I rest my case.

Obviously when NJDOT selected control points for mileage signs, they were looking at the large entity beneath the county level, so they came up with Ramapo and being Suffern is part of that it would be like considering Iselin, which is part of Woodbridge Township, as one if a road went there to terminate which I am sure they would use Woodbridge. Even though Suffern has a government of its own and Iselin does not, to a NJ thinker it may not be realized.

BTW, I think NJ only has three villages.  Ridgefield Park, South Orange, and Loch Arbour are the only ones incorporated as such.

I think Iselin was actually signed on the Garden State Parkway until very recently:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5618144,-74.3219323,3a,75y,334.03h,84.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUKU1-EsCLycs8i8H_j8Byw!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1!6m1!1e1

[Pete from Boston]

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

I rest my case.

Obviously when NJDOT selected control points for mileage signs, they were looking at the large entity beneath the county level, so they came up with Ramapo and being Suffern is part of that it would be like considering Iselin, which is part of Woodbridge Township, as one if a road went there to terminate which I am sure they would use Woodbridge. Even though Suffern has a government of its own and Iselin does not, to a NJ thinker it may not be realized.

BTW, I think NJ only has three villages.  Ridgefield Park, South Orange, and Loch Arbour are the only ones incorporated as such.

Ridgewood is a village.

"To a NJ thinker" in this case misuses the word "thinker," since it's sort of the opposite–applying something based on a rule instead of finding out what people know and use.

[jwolfer]

For a long while Toms River in NJ was unincorporated until they decided to name the township it was part of as it.  It used to be a community inside the now defunct Dover Township.  So the situation of White River Junction is not unique as there are many others out there that use unincorporated towns and cities for control destinations.

Even Toms River is not the only other scenario, there is one other that I cannot remember at this time.  I had one yesterday to mention, but now it moved to the tip of my tongue.

The township name changed I would not say defunct, implies that the township was annexed by Toms River. ( I know you know that, just clarification)

Cherry Hill Township was named Delaware Township

[empirestate]

Its like the other way on US 202 where they use "Solebury" instead of "New Hope" for the same reason.  PA has townships instead of towns, but they are both the same in nature.

Yes, in essence. However, PA's townships tend not to develop as much of a public identity as, to some extent, NY's towns, and to a great extent, the municipalities of NJ and New England. This is where Chapter 1 starts to get more complicated, as areal divisions in those states are often referred to in the same context as "localized" places, depending on how strongly the residents relate to them.

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

I rest my case.

Obviously when NJDOT selected control points for mileage signs, they were looking at the large entity beneath the county level, so they came up with Ramapo and being Suffern is part of that it would be like considering Iselin, which is part of Woodbridge Township, as one if a road went there to terminate which I am sure they would use Woodbridge. Even though Suffern has a government of its own and Iselin does not, to a NJ thinker it may not be realized.

That sounds plausible. I can picture somebody referring to a municipal map of New Jersey, and if it happened to show civil boundaries in the adjoining states as well, it's easy to imagine that person seeing a NY town or a PA township and thinking they would make a good parallel to NJ's various municipalities.

[ekt8750]

Its like the other way on US 202 where they use "Solebury" instead of "New Hope" for the same reason.  PA has townships instead of towns, but they are both the same in nature.

Yes, in essence. However, PA's townships tend not to develop as much of a public identity as, to some extent, NY's towns, and to a great extent, the municipalities of NJ and New England. This is where Chapter 1 starts to get more complicated, as areal divisions in those states are often referred to in the same context as "localized" places, depending on how strongly the residents relate to them.

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

I rest my case.

Obviously when NJDOT selected control points for mileage signs, they were looking at the large entity beneath the county level, so they came up with Ramapo and being Suffern is part of that it would be like considering Iselin, which is part of Woodbridge Township, as one if a road went there to terminate which I am sure they would use Woodbridge. Even though Suffern has a government of its own and Iselin does not, to a NJ thinker it may not be realized.

That sounds plausible. I can picture somebody referring to a municipal map of New Jersey, and if it happened to show civil boundaries in the adjoining states as well, it's easy to imagine that person seeing a NY town or a PA township and thinking they would make a good parallel to NJ's various municipalities.

In PA, villages aren't incorporated at all. They usually do have bigger name recognition than the townships they're apart of though. In PA they tend to use village names as control cities instead of township names for that very reason.

[roadman65]

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

I rest my case.

Obviously when NJDOT selected control points for mileage signs, they were looking at the large entity beneath the county level, so they came up with Ramapo and being Suffern is part of that it would be like considering Iselin, which is part of Woodbridge Township, as one if a road went there to terminate which I am sure they would use Woodbridge. Even though Suffern has a government of its own and Iselin does not, to a NJ thinker it may not be realized.

BTW, I think NJ only has three villages.  Ridgefield Park, South Orange, and Loch Arbour are the only ones incorporated as such.

Ridgewood is a village.

"To a NJ thinker" in this case misuses the word "thinker," since it's sort of the opposite–applying something based on a rule instead of finding out what people know and use.

I did not mean no pun in that word.  I was just saying that when a smaller community lies within a larger one, to a New Jerseyan, we would think that its just all synonymous.  The same with Suffern with its parent Ramapo, however NY does things differently where the smaller area inside an incorporated community can have its own government and still be part of it which is what Suffern is inside Ramapo.

Each state is different and we all think the norm is what each of us do in our own state.  Organization of towns are quite different by state and just so you know, I never knew of unincorporated areas without municipal governments until I moved to Florida.  Being from New Jersey, I always thought that all parts of a state had to be under some sort of municipal jurisdiction because in New Jersey we have no areas that are unincorporated.  The term unincorporated is used for area names that are considered towns that are only part of a township, like Iselin is considered unincorporated because it has no government of its own and is part of Woodbridge Township. 

[Pete from Boston]

My point is that I'd expect there to be some research into useful terms before putting them on a sign.  I may overestimate the resources available for such work.

[roadman65]

My point is that I'd expect there to be some research into useful terms before putting them on a sign.  I may overestimate the resources available for such work.

Just as the placement of them.  Look at the sign on US 202 southbound in Flemington as its where the route enters the traffic circle there and not after it.

Also look at US 1 & 9 Southbound's first sign in Palisades Park. Its where US 1 & 9 is the frontage road for US 46 and not after it turns the corner onto Broad Avenue.

Then you also have:
US 9 North in Lakewood.  Assembly at the CR 526 junction and NOT after it.
I-195 West in Wall.  Between the NJ 34 SB exit and SB NJ 34 entrance ramp.


Then you have:
Ewing for I-295 instead of Trenton on all NB signs.
Plainsboro, instead of Princeton for US 1 SB on its signs.



It was not carefully thought out as you say.

[roadman65]

Also at Wayne, where US 46 has an exit for those wishing to head east to Clifton and NJ 3, still has NYC as pull through along with the GWB as US 46 E Bound at Exit 52 uses Clifton and Lincoln Tunnel as control destinations without New York, despite most motorists from the west bound for Midtown would exit here.

Things were simpler in the old days:


Yes, New England was once used in New Jersey! Gotta love that deco style billboard that likely lit up at night.

I remember there was a billboard on US 13 north after entering Maryland advertising the Cape May- Lewes Ferry advising motorists to use US 113 north from Pocomoke City, MD.  I do not know if its still there or not, but the last time I was there MDSHA did have one of their highway signs directing motorists to that crossing via US 113.

[storm2k]

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

I rest my case.

Obviously when NJDOT selected control points for mileage signs, they were looking at the large entity beneath the county level, so they came up with Ramapo and being Suffern is part of that it would be like considering Iselin, which is part of Woodbridge Township, as one if a road went there to terminate which I am sure they would use Woodbridge. Even though Suffern has a government of its own and Iselin does not, to a NJ thinker it may not be realized.

BTW, I think NJ only has three villages.  Ridgefield Park, South Orange, and Loch Arbour are the only ones incorporated as such.

I think Iselin was actually signed on the Garden State Parkway until very recently:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5618144,-74.3219323,3a,75y,334.03h,84.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUKU1-EsCLycs8i8H_j8Byw!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1!6m1!1e1

It was. It was removed to a secondary ground mount BGS for MUTCD compliance (they discourage more than 2 place names on a BGS). That's happened with numerous signs on the Parkway as part of the MUTCD sign replacement project.

[bzakharin]

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

I rest my case.

Obviously when NJDOT selected control points for mileage signs, they were looking at the large entity beneath the county level, so they came up with Ramapo and being Suffern is part of that it would be like considering Iselin, which is part of Woodbridge Township, as one if a road went there to terminate which I am sure they would use Woodbridge. Even though Suffern has a government of its own and Iselin does not, to a NJ thinker it may not be realized.

BTW, I think NJ only has three villages.  Ridgefield Park, South Orange, and Loch Arbour are the only ones incorporated as such.

I think Iselin was actually signed on the Garden State Parkway until very recently:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5618144,-74.3219323,3a,75y,334.03h,84.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUKU1-EsCLycs8i8H_j8Byw!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1!6m1!1e1

It was. It was removed to a secondary ground mount BGS for MUTCD compliance (they discourage more than 2 place names on a BGS). That's happened with numerous signs on the Parkway as part of the MUTCD sign replacement project.

But Iselin is directly served by that exit. If it were just the number of place names, I'd bump off Rahway, since it's better served by exit 135 or, better yet, exit 12 on the Turnpike. If the problem is that it isn't incorporated, then sign Woodbridge.

[storm2k]

NJ villages these days are no different from townships. They are fully incorporated and have local government. They are not inside any larger political entity (that isn't a county).

I rest my case.

Obviously when NJDOT selected control points for mileage signs, they were looking at the large entity beneath the county level, so they came up with Ramapo and being Suffern is part of that it would be like considering Iselin, which is part of Woodbridge Township, as one if a road went there to terminate which I am sure they would use Woodbridge. Even though Suffern has a government of its own and Iselin does not, to a NJ thinker it may not be realized.

BTW, I think NJ only has three villages.  Ridgefield Park, South Orange, and Loch Arbour are the only ones incorporated as such.

I think Iselin was actually signed on the Garden State Parkway until very recently:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5618144,-74.3219323,3a,75y,334.03h,84.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUKU1-EsCLycs8i8H_j8Byw!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1!6m1!1e1

It was. It was removed to a secondary ground mount BGS for MUTCD compliance (they discourage more than 2 place names on a BGS). That's happened with numerous signs on the Parkway as part of the MUTCD sign replacement project.

But Iselin is directly served by that exit. If it were just the number of place names, I'd bump off Rahway, since it's better served by exit 135 or, better yet, exit 12 on the Turnpike. If the problem is that it isn't incorporated, then sign Woodbridge.

Iselin is served by 3 consecutive exits on the NB Parkway (131A, 131B, and 132) and 2 SB (132 and 131). The supplemental signs reflect this, so I think this was the right change.