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Unsignalized Double Left Turns

Started by MNHighwayMan, April 14, 2019, 06:05:26 AM

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MNHighwayMan

Here's an oddball double left I recently discovered. This is on CR-96 in Arden Hills, MN, near the US-10 interchange. On top of the fact that it's not signalized, it's not even a left turn onto another road–it's a left for a driveway to a church!

Is this an unusual practice, or have I just not noticed anything like this before? What is the point of having two left turn lanes if there isn't a protected signal to clear them?


mrsman

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 14, 2019, 06:05:26 AM
Here's an oddball double left I recently discovered. This is on CR-96 in Arden Hills, MN, near the US-10 interchange. On top of the fact that it's not signalized, it's not even a left turn onto another road–it's a left for a driveway to a church!

Is this an unusual practice, or have I just not noticed anything like this before? What is the point of having two left turn lanes if there isn't a protected signal to clear them?

The only thing I can think of, especially because you said that this was a driveway to a church, is that the church may have traffic control officers (whether police or private) to control traffic on Sunday mornings and other times when there are church services that expect lots of people.  Probably most of the time there are no traffic issues here and a signal would be completely unwarranted and only serve to cause backups on the arterial for the handful of cars that may need to turn into and out of the church parking lot (like the minister and other employees).  But when it's busy, it's busy and they need a traffic control officer to control traffic, and there are probably enough cars turning left to need the double lanes.

There are many areas where they make special accommodations for church services on Sundays.  Partly because general traffic is lower and also to make nice to the religious community.  In the DC area, I know of several major streets that are adjusted to allow for more street parking near a church to allow for church parking, but only on Sundays.  There are several streets that prohibit parking at the curb lane (or the median lane) for the entire week, except church service times. 

Example:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0223016,-77.0449563,3a,75y,26.45h,83.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOV25u6SS5weD_6Uyr60TrQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


Elsewhere, there are streets that are normally two lanes of traffic in both directions with curbside parking that become angled parking ton Sunday to fit in more cars for the church.  It also goes without saying that DC has citywide free parking on Sundays (i.e. the meters are not in effect) to also be helpful to the churchgoers.

But back to your example, I would be curious to know if they actually have traffic control by police or not.  Perhaps if someone is in the area on Sunday mornings and can report back?

MNHighwayMan

#2
You just might be right. It is an awfully large church, and that becomes especially obvious if you look at the aerial photos–it has a huge parking lot. I'm definitely going to have to check if I find myself back in Minnesota on a Sunday.

vdeane

Not quite like the original example, but this rather intimidating stop sign intersection would seem to qualify.

Also not technically a church, though to some Wegmans could be considered a religion, so...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

1995hoo

#4
There's an unsignalized double left turn at Seven Corners near Falls Church. It's horrible. Always backs up, and it's a busy area. I won't post a Street View link because I'm using my phone and the last few Street View links I got from the Google Maps app didn't work correctly, so here's a map link where I dropped the pin on the spot in question: https://goo.gl/maps/Fmfy5tKY6fN2


Edited to add: I'm at a PC, so here's a Street View link. In case it's not obvious, the dual left turn is where the Mercedes wagon is heading. Part of what makes it all the more annoying is that after you make that left turn, you immediately encounter a traffic light, which just makes turning that much more difficult because most of the time either traffic is moving to beat the light or traffic is stopped so you don't have room to turn.
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Joe The Dragon

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 14, 2019, 06:05:26 AM
Here's an oddball double left I recently discovered. This is on CR-96 in Arden Hills, MN, near the US-10 interchange. On top of the fact that it's not signalized, it's not even a left turn onto another road–it's a left for a driveway to a church!

Is this an unusual practice, or have I just not noticed anything like this before? What is the point of having two left turn lanes if there isn't a protected signal to clear them?
the other side is setup for an dual turn as well.

jakeroot

I'll toot my own here just slightly. I do have an existing thread for double left turns with permissive phasing. I meant to include double left turns without any signal as well, but I can understand if that wasn't particularly clear. Certainly doesn't hurt to have another thread specifically for those rare double lefts without any signal at all.

Oddly enough, in my never-ending quest to find as many double-left turns without protected-only phasing, I have actually come across the OP's double left turn in Arden Hills. But, I'll be damned if I can't figure out who linked me to it.




I know of quite a few examples of this type of intersection, though some are closer to roundabout configuration:

Kennewick, WA:
* Hildebrand Blvd @ Plaza Way

Edmonton, AB:
* Princess Elizabeth Ave NW @ 109 St NW
* Groat Road NW @ 87 Ave NW

Cupertino, CA:
* N Tauntu Ave @ Apple Park Way (briefly)

Silver Spring, MD / Washington, DC:
* Colesville Road @ MD-390/16 St

Hunstville, AL:
* Bradford Dr NW @ AL-255 Fwy

I'm sure there are more that I can't remember at this moment. I'll post again if they come back to me.

MCRoads

This intersection in Newport News, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.)
I build roads on Minecraft. Like, really good roads.
Interstates traveled:
4/5/10*/11**/12**/15/25*/29*/35(E/W[TX])/40*/44**/49(LA**)/55*/64**/65/66*/70°/71*76(PA*,CO*)/78*°/80*/95°/99(PA**,NY**)

*/** indicates a terminus/termini being traveled
° Indicates a gap (I.E Breezwood, PA.)

more room plz

plain

Quote from: MCRoads on April 15, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
This intersection in Newport News Hampton, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.)

FTFY
Newark born, Richmond bred

MCRoads

#9
Quote from: plain on April 30, 2019, 08:27:53 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on April 15, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
This intersection in Newport News Hampton, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.)

FTFY

IDK what that means.

EDIT:
DONT GOOGLE IT!!!
I build roads on Minecraft. Like, really good roads.
Interstates traveled:
4/5/10*/11**/12**/15/25*/29*/35(E/W[TX])/40*/44**/49(LA**)/55*/64**/65/66*/70°/71*76(PA*,CO*)/78*°/80*/95°/99(PA**,NY**)

*/** indicates a terminus/termini being traveled
° Indicates a gap (I.E Breezwood, PA.)

more room plz

jakeroot

Quote from: MCRoads on May 01, 2019, 10:58:30 AM
EDIT:
DONT GOOGLE IT!!!

Didn't see anything unusual. I also "Bing'd," it, which doesn't have an adult-content filter, and got nothing bad.

jeffandnicole

Continuing on with this topic in a different manner:

How often have you seen a double left turn lane which has the absolute right of way?

At this jughandle off of US 130 in NJ, both lanes have the right of way to turn left at this intersection:  https://goo.gl/maps/Vy459U5weoSNxdop8 . Traffic coming from the right has the stop sign.

I've seen the many cases where 2 lanes turn left, but can't think of any where dual left turn lanes at a non-signalized intersection have the right of way at all times.  As in the case above where there's a one-way element involved, maybe this occurs more often in cities.

jakeroot

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 11:28:43 AM
How often have you seen a double left turn lane which has the absolute right of way?

How often? Virtually never, but I know of one example in Newport, WA: https://goo.gl/maps/h63nQdChrPrdGLAb6

Part of a couplet system through town. The double left turn from the northernmost main road onto the couplet has priority over oncoming traffic.

Brandon

Quote from: MCRoads on May 01, 2019, 10:58:30 AM
Quote from: plain on April 30, 2019, 08:27:53 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on April 15, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
This intersection in Newport News Hampton, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.)

FTFY

IDK what that means.

EDIT:
DONT GOOGLE IT!!!

Um, what it's meant for at least 20+ years: Fixed That For You.
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Roadwarriors79


jakeroot

Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on September 22, 2019, 10:43:38 AM
Off the top of my head, I thought of this intersection in Phoenix (27th Ave and Jefferson St):

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4475701,-112.1176061,3a,75y,185.46h,91.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stkQRcQtJxdCCk20PsQqOLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Very interesting! AZ has quite a few double left turns without protected-only phasing, although most are in Tucson. At least one exception is this double left turn (about a mile east of the 51 Fwy, off 40th and Shea), which seems to run without any protected phasing. But I was not aware of any that operated without any signals. Based on the traffic, I highly doubt it needs two turn lanes. But it's been there for a while (since at least 1978! ... perhaps the oldest example so far), so it must be working OK. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

sprjus4

#16
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 11:28:43 AM
How often have you seen a double left turn lane which has the absolute right of way?
Two entrances to Greenbrier Mall in Chesapeake, VA have these - https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7769691,-76.2287374,224m/data=!3m1!1e3

Traffic entering the mall on Crossways Blvd and the other entrance road has right of way, traffic on Ring Rd has to stop.

deathtopumpkins

Quote from: MCRoads on April 15, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
This intersection in Newport News, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.)

I know this is a bit of an old post, but I figured I'd give some context here. Commander Shepard Blvd used to end at a trumpet interchange at Magruder Blvd. It was only extended west of Magruder around 2010. Prior to that North Campus Pkwy just dead-ended, and the NIA was only accessed via Floyd Thompson Blvd to the north.

North Campus Pkwy was intended to anchor an office park that never got off the ground.
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doorknob60

This one feels a bit like cheating because there is no through movement, but it still is signed as a legitimate double left turn. Memory Rd and Federal Way just outside Boise, ID. Weird for what looks like the middle of nowhere, but it's used to access Micron HQ and some other businesses (though I still don't think it gets a lot of traffic, most people probably exiting at ID-21).


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kphoger

Do you count it if the second lane is an option lane?  If so, then Wichita has that on Central Avenue.
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jakeroot

Quote from: kphoger on September 25, 2019, 02:30:19 PM
Do you count it if the second lane is an option lane?  If so, then Wichita has that on Central Avenue.

I would hope so. My first Edmonton example (upthread) is nearly identical to this setup.

Ian

The intersection of Maine and Mason Streets in Brunswick, Maine has a double left-turn that's protected only by flashing beacons.
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jakeroot

Quote from: Ian on October 02, 2019, 08:03:12 PM
The intersection of Maine and Mason Streets in Brunswick, Maine has a double left-turn that's protected only by flashing beacons.

Damn, that's a great example! Almost all of these are decidedly rural or suburban. This one is definitely very urban.

SkyPesos

Here's one I found at Little Turtle Way and the OH 161 WB onramp when looking at Columbus's roads. Interestingly, the opposite direction have a stop sign, which may be a reason for the existence of this double left turn.

Mr_Northside

From the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh (McCandless TWP, I do believe)The left turn from NB Babcock Blvd onto Corporate Drive is a dual left-turn that encounters a stop sign  (opposing traffic does NOT stop)

https://goo.gl/maps/PUp1G93aQF7ptP616
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