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Dallas: I-345

Started by MaxConcrete, June 08, 2019, 08:34:25 PM

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kphoger

Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2022, 12:58:54 PM
I believe that's how it's signed (with I-345 being hidden), but since I-345 is a chargeable interstate, they needed some number for it back when that meant more than it does now; they must have decided to end I-45 at I-30 rather than continue that designation a little bit further north.

And if a route's number is unsigned, then the particular number doesn't really matter.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.


Duke87

Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2022, 12:58:54 PM
^ I believe that's how it's signed (with I-345 being hidden), but since I-345 is a chargeable interstate, they needed some number for it back when that meant more than it does now; they must have decided to end I-45 at I-30 rather than continue that designation a little bit further north.

Yep, it has a hidden interstate designation for the same reason other hidden interstate designations exist: funding.

Only nitpick in this statement is that it would be more historically accurate to say they decided to end I-45 at I-20, since that is what the RL Thornton Freeway was designated as at the time. The westward extension of I-30 and relocation southward of I-20 came later.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

bwana39

#127
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 19, 2022, 03:05:59 PM
3 lanes each way doesn’t seem like enough it should have been at least 5 lanes.

It isn't. The point is there is no additional right of way required.

Yes there are places that will have acceleration and exit lanes, but all-in-all it is a 3x3 facility.

To ME the only way this is much better than what they have now (except for condition) is if they put caps on virtually all of it. The most recent cap letting on Woodall Rogers tells us that is more expensive than is generally feasible.

As to the tunnel arguments, when / if you cap it, it is nothing but a cut and cover tunnel with emerging ramps. It is somewhat less expensive than a bored tunnel, but still as a rule cost prohibitive. Building the recessed roadway and capping it later does one thing. It passes the cost of the cover to local entities as opposed to TXDOT.

By the way, the recessed roadway will have fewer access points from downtown to Deep Ellum / east Dallas than the existing elevated freeway.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Chris


longhorn

Is rebuilding the I-30 stack included in the plan?

MaxConcrete

Quote from: longhorn on May 24, 2023, 03:56:26 PM
Is rebuilding the I-30 stack included in the plan?
Yes.

The planned design has ramps on the upper levels, instead of having I-345 on the upper level.
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

bwana39

Quote from: Chris on May 24, 2023, 02:34:33 PM
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2023/05/24/i-345-decision-dallas-approves-txdot-recommendation-to-remodel-interstate/

The Dallas city council voted 14-0 to approve TxDOTs recommended plan for putting I-345 in a trench.

I think it is a win / win until the construction actually starts. It accomplishes two things. 1) It gets rid of the elevated that the urbanists so badly want gone. 2) It retains a through freeway from I-30 to Woodall Rogers.

When the construction starts, the chaos is going to rule downtown for from 6-8 years.  If the caps actually get built, it will actually accomplish the best compromise for all concerned. If the caps fail to come to fruition, East Dallas will be MORE divided.  If the caps don't get built what you will have is equivalent to the canyon on I-30. Right now most of the downtown streets have direct connection to Deep Ellum and East Dallas EXCEPT where DART facilities block it.   Ironically the division that everyone talks about is truly more about the Dart tracks than Central Expy.

After this fewer direct connections will exist. There is one thing getting rid of elevated freeways, They don't benefit the poor. When the elevated freeways go, there are fewer places for the homeless to camp / live. It will look a whole lot cleaner and seemingly safer when the homeless go away. Is that the whole point?

Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Plutonic Panda

Don't forget dallas is also doing what austin can't do which build a subway(even though dallas technically has a LRT underground segment).

ZLoth

Construction would be sped up if they simply shut down i-345 entirely, built the trench and ramps, then opened it up again. But, it would make downtown Dallas traffic even more miserable, and I've mentioned my dislike towards I-30 between I-35E and US-75 as well as TX-366 already.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

bwana39

Quote from: ZLoth on May 25, 2023, 08:17:57 AM
Construction would be sped up if they simply shut down i-345 entirely, built the trench and ramps, then opened it up again. But, it would make downtown Dallas traffic even more miserable, and I've mentioned my dislike towards I-30 between I-35E and US-75 as well as TX-366 already.

So you hate the freeway-in-a-trench? I-345 or whatever you want to call it, is going to be just like it after it is finished.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

The Ghostbuster

I think putting 345 in a trench is better than leaving it an elevated highway (or demolishing it altogether). I would also suggest that all on and off ramps on the left-hand side should be moved to the right-hand side. If 345 has to be completely closed during construction, so be it (maybe that would make motorists realize the fallacy of getting rid of 345). I totally agree with capping the new 345 trench, and building something like the Klyde Warren Park that exists over 366.

ZLoth

Quote from: bwana39 on May 25, 2023, 10:49:41 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on May 25, 2023, 08:17:57 AM
Construction would be sped up if they simply shut down i-345 entirely, built the trench and ramps, then opened it up again. But, it would make downtown Dallas traffic even more miserable, and I've mentioned my dislike towards I-30 between I-35E and US-75 as well as TX-366 already.

So you hate the freeway-in-a-trench? I-345 or whatever you want to call it, is going to be just like it after it is finished.

Nope. I-5 has a "boat section" which I have traveled very often. The question is just how quickly can construction be completed. It just feels that every construction project is a five year project because you still have to keep traffic flowing around the construction areas.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

bwana39

#137
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 25, 2023, 11:30:20 AM
I think putting 345 in a trench is better than leaving it an elevated highway (or demolishing it altogether). I would also suggest that all on and off ramps on the left-hand side should be moved to the right-hand side. If 345 has to be completely closed during construction, so be it (maybe that would make motorists realize the fallacy of getting rid of 345). I totally agree with capping the new 345 trench, and building something like the Klyde Warren Park that exists over 366.

There are about 15 hard-core and vocal urbanists who believe that there should be no freeway at all here. Everyone else pretty much understands that it is needed. 

The Whole dilemma about I-345 and the Pierce elevated in Houston is about the life span of the elevated sections. Both were initially designed with an approximately 50-year service life. While they underestimated the real service life, replacement of both is still needed in the next 15-20 years or less. The overall capacity is not being significantly expanded in either case with the proposed replacements.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

ZLoth

From WFAA:

50 years later, Bonehead Club gets victory on I-345
A 1972 WFAA story from the SMU Jones Film Library shows the group playing horseshoes and hopscotch on I-345 as it was still under construction.
QuoteMore than 50 years earlier, the Bonehead Club of Dallas protested the construction of I-345 in their typically unique and humorous way. A 1972 WFAA story from the SMU Jones Film Library shows the group playing horseshoes and hopscotch on I-345 as it was still under construction. It was their way of making a point about a city park being destroyed to make space for the highway.
FULL ARTICLE HERE
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

bwana39

Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

bwana39

To drive home a point.Deep Ellum as we know it will not exist past the 2020's and may be entirely gone by 2035.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/century-old-deep-ellum-building-apartment-tower/287-c13bae21-57c3-459b-bb46-9ed0b306b472
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

74/171FAN

Email I just received from Texas DOT

QuoteThank you for your interest in the Texas Department of Transportation's I-345 Connects project.



TxDOT will be hosting upcoming public meetings (both in-person and online) to provide updates on the project and receive feedback.



The in-person public meetings will be held March 19 & 21, 2024 from 5:30-7:30 p.m.  Please see attached notices and flyers (English & Spanish) for additional details.



We will also post all materials online at www.345connects.com for the public to view at their convenience.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

The Ghostbuster

I believe the environmental assessment for reconstructing Interstate 345 will be completed next spring. Then we'll have to see how long it takes before construction begins. Hopefully, it happens by 2030, since I'm sure there are still people who want the elevated highway to go (even if it is replaced by a capped below-grade freeway).


The Ghostbuster

For some, total demolition of a roadway is the only acceptable option. I'd prefer 345 to be put in a trench rather than completely demolished, since I think 345 is a needed connection in the Dallas freeway system. Trenching the freeway and capping it could make the freeway seem like less of a barrier to the surrounding neighborhood, although some would never see it that way.

bwana39

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 09, 2024, 05:42:33 PM
For some, total demolition of a roadway is the only acceptable option. I'd prefer 345 to be put in a trench rather than completely demolished, since I think 345 is a needed connection in the Dallas freeway system. Trenching the freeway and capping it could make the freeway seem like less of a barrier to the surrounding neighborhood, although some would never see it that way.

If they TOTALLY cap it,it might achieve what they want. The proposal will seemingly have a bigger barrier than the existing road.

What is proposed (and admittedly MIGHT be capped separately) Is almost exact to Central in the SMU area without the cantilevered frontage roads.  Add to that tall barriers at ground level to buffer the noise.  It is all buzzwords adn butterflies
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Bobby5280

I don't think they necessarily need to totally cap the I-345 trench. One or more deck parks would be nice. But really the main thing is preserving pedestrian and bicycle access at any surface streets that cross the trench. They can add decorative features to visibly hide the highway from surface traffic if they like. As long as the sidewalks and bike paths extend over the freeway it should be all good.

bwana39

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2024, 01:15:29 AM
I don't think they necessarily need to totally cap the I-345 trench. One or more deck parks would be nice. But really the main thing is preserving pedestrian and bicycle access at any surface streets that cross the trench. They can add decorative features to visibly hide the highway from surface traffic if they like. As long as the sidewalks and bike paths extend over the freeway it should be all good.

The irony is, the current elevated freeway has better pedestrian and bicycle access than the proposed tunnelish will even if it is ALL capped.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Bobby5280

The areas underneath the current elevated I-345 freeway are fenced off in many places between streets. Pedestrians are having to cross under the highway using sidewalks along surface streets. If anything, people on foot might have more ways to cross over the trenched freeway if any deck parks are built. Otherwise their access crossing over the freeway is going to be about the same. But they'll at least see open air or daylight crossing above the freeway. It should be safer from a standpoint of crime avoidance.

bwana39

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2024, 08:02:06 PM
The areas underneath the current elevated I-345 freeway are fenced off in many places between streets. Pedestrians are having to cross under the highway using sidewalks along surface streets. If anything, people on foot might have more ways to cross over the trenched freeway if any deck parks are built. Otherwise their access crossing over the freeway is going to be about the same. But they'll at least see open air or daylight crossing above the freeway. It should be safer from a standpoint of crime avoidance.

You need to look again and think again! You are probably thinking about US-59 / I-69 in HOUSTON. WHile it is not pedestrian friendly, there are no fences. There are often ramps onto and off of the freeway that block pedestrians.

By crime avoidance, I assume we are talking about HOMELESS avoidance.

BTW. Most of the crime is IN Deep Ellum NOT between it and downtown. I will agree with you, the crime will probably be gone when the elevated is gone, because Deep Ellum will be mostly if not completely gone by then.

The one thing I am absolutely certain of is that this $2B project without caps will be no more (probably less) pedestrian and cyclist friendly than what is there. Even with the caps, best case is it shifts the flavor of the day from Woodall Rodgers to this one and the north side of downtown will be in the decay mode. 

There has been a trenched freeway on the south side of downtown for decades. That is where the real division exists. Almost all the cross streets cross the freeway. Most of them have good sidewalks across. This is not the panacea some would suggest it is. I am not even convinced that the social capital is anywhere even close to the fiscal capital it is going to cost more than the lesser expensive alternatives (and I am not suggesting no-build or walkable boulevard. )

Let's build what we need as economically as possible.



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