Michigan Notes

[Flint1979]

I could see I-94, US-23 and I-75 south of 275 being feasible for tolls. I don't think M-14 would work as a toll road.

Toll roads in Michigan? Study shows where they might work

The consultants used 21 criteria to review the feasibility of assessing mileage-based tolls on all 1,922 miles of limited-access highways. Of the 31 routes, 17 were screened out, partly to avoid affecting low-income communities and to have self-supporting toll roads.

The 14 remaining corridors, encompassing 1,156 miles, were broken into three tiers based on their readiness for tolling: five to seven years for 545 miles, seven to 14 years for 232 miles and 15 or more years for 379 miles.

Tier 1, the nearer-term scenario that is based on tolls starting in 2028, includes:

all of Interstate 275 in metro Detroit.
all of I-696.
I-75 between the Ohio border and I-275 south of Detroit, and between I-695 north of Saginaw and U.S. 127 north of Higgins Lake.
I-94 between the Indiana border and U.S. 24 in Detroit.
I-69 between Marshall and Flint.
I-196 between I-94 north of St. Joseph and M-6 southwest of Grand Rapids.
M-14 between I-94 southwest of Ann Arbor and the M-14/U.S. 23 split north of Ann Arbor.[/li][/list]
[
Such a system would generate $1.3 billion in revenue annually by 2032 if the tolling rate was 6 cents a mile for passenger cars and 24 cents per mile for commercial trucks. The current transportation budget is $6.1 billion.

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/politics-policy/toll-roads-michigan-study-shows-where-they-might-work

Good lord, why not just toll every mile of freeway!

And of course you have to pay for a subscription to read about future tolls!  D'oh!

And I'd really like to know more about this I-695 north of Saginaw!

Probably meant I-675 but still it's a stupid idea that will probably never happen.

[The Ghostbuster]

Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.

[Terry Shea]

Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.

Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.

[sprjus4]

Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.

Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.

Citation needed

[Terry Shea]

Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.

Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.

Citation needed

See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.

[Rothman]

Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.

Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.

Citation needed

See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.

I'm not seeing any evidence of that, since a lot of people have to pay tolls to get to or around Michigan (Ohio Turnpike, Indiana Toll Road, Mackinac Bridge, toll bridges between MI and Canada...).

And then, even without tolls, you still have to drive a considerable ways to get to touristy areas in the north (Sleeping Dunes, Mackinac Island, Painted Rocks and the other shore communities). 

Reminds me of Flint and Autoworld...

[sprjus4]

Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.

Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.

Citation needed

See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.

Citation still needed

[Terry Shea]

Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.

Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.

Citation needed

See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.

I'm not seeing any evidence of that, since a lot of people have to pay tolls to get to or around Michigan (Ohio Turnpike, Indiana Toll Road, Mackinac Bridge, toll bridges between MI and Canada...).

And then, even without tolls, you still have to drive a considerable ways to get to touristy areas in the north (Sleeping Dunes, Mackinac Island, Painted Rocks and the other shore communities). 

Reminds me of Flint and Autoworld...

And yet a lot of people don't have to pay tolls coming from other states.  Yeah, if you cross an international border, you're going to have to pay a small toll, just like you have to do anywhere between Minnesota and extreme eastern New York, so what's your point?  Michiganders can vacation in the state and not have to pay any tolls other than a small fee to cross The Mackinac Bridge.  People coming up through Ohio, Indiana and Wisconsin likely won't have to pay any tolls in those states, but even if they do, they won't pay any tolls in Michigan other than to cross The Big Mac. 

[Terry Shea]

Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.

Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.

Citation needed

See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.

Citation still needed

No, I don't need any citation.  This is not Wikipedia. It's a place to express opinions and that's what I'm doing.  And I don't see any official title such as "Forum Tyrant" associated with you.   

[Rothman]

Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.

Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.

Citation needed

See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.

I'm not seeing any evidence of that, since a lot of people have to pay tolls to get to or around Michigan (Ohio Turnpike, Indiana Toll Road, Mackinac Bridge, toll bridges between MI and Canada...).

And then, even without tolls, you still have to drive a considerable ways to get to touristy areas in the north (Sleeping Dunes, Mackinac Island, Painted Rocks and the other shore communities). 

Reminds me of Flint and Autoworld...

And yet a lot of people don't have to pay tolls coming from other states.  Yeah, if you cross an international border, you're going to have to pay a small toll, just like you have to do anywhere between Minnesota and extreme eastern New York, so what's your point?  Michiganders can vacation in the state and not have to pay any tolls other than a small fee to cross The Mackinac Bridge.  People coming up through Ohio, Indiana and Wisconsin likely won't have to pay any tolls in those states, but even if they do, they won't pay any tolls in Michigan other than to cross The Big Mac.

Well, to answer your question, I still find your assertion that Michigan is a tourist destination because of some lack of tolls to not be well-founded.  Like said elsewhere, you need a citation backing your opinion up with some real data or information.

People still flood toll-filled states for tourism.  Heck, New York City itself receives tens of millions of tourists per year -- probably just as many or more than MI as a whole -- and you have to pay to get in that city.

New England is flooded with tourists and of course, Florida.

MI is hardly a tourist mecca on the same level, despite the quality of the draws.

[rhen_var]

Road construction and maintenance in Michigan is primarily funded by the gas tax.  With EVs becoming more and more popular (and eventually likely compulsory), the revenue from the gas tax will only decrease, and will start to disproportionately put the burden of funding roads on gasoline car owners, so how else would funding continue?  There has to be some kind of tax increase somewhere else to cover it, so why not directly tax those using the road via tolls?  The only other obvious route would be to put an additional tax on electric utilities.

This proposal is pointless in an era of gasoline cars, but given the context of the change in how cars are powered, it makes sense.

[Flint1979]

If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.

[bessertc]

Well, to answer your question, I still find your assertion that Michigan is a tourist destination because of some lack of tolls to not be well-founded.  Like said elsewhere, you need a citation backing your opinion up with some real data or information.

People still flood toll-filled states for tourism.  Heck, New York City itself receives tens of millions of tourists per year -- probably just as many or more than MI as a whole -- and you have to pay to get in that city.

New England is flooded with tourists and of course, Florida.

MI is hardly a tourist mecca on the same level, despite the quality of the draws.

Actually, the amount of tourist dollars spent in Michigan is massive and, aside from the auto industry–and we know how fickle that can be–it's the second-largest driver of the state's economy. And while we're not the agricultural powerhouse on the level of many of the Great Plains states or California, ag and forestry are also HUGE parts of the state's economy, so for tourism to be No.2, that's saying a lot. I found this data that may be pertinent: "According to Tourism Economics, Michigan hosted 113.4 million visitors who spent $22.8 billion in the state. Domestic and overseas travelers spent $21.3 billion and $1.5 billion, respectively. The report showed visitor spending directly supports more than 214,000 Michigan jobs." So, Florida and California may be tourism hotspots, especially for international travelers, but for domestic/Canadian travelers, Michigan and its Great Lakes are a huge draw.

As for the idea that a lack of toll roads in the state helps draw tourists, that's been a statistic that's been cited by transportation and state tourism officials since the 1950s. It was one of the reasons the Toledo—Detroit—Saginaw Toll Road (which was actually in the planning stages in the late 1950s) as well as the proposed Detroit—Chicago Toll Road were both eventually abandoned. Michigan was always cited as a "destination state" for both tourism and economic reasons, being off the main transcontinental routes, although this was well before the concept of NAFTA was a thing and before Detroit became the single busiest international border crossing in terms of trade and commerce. I'm not sure where the original "statistic" came from that people have been citing for over 65 years now, but it's been something oft-quoted that entire time.

And I don't know how true it is that tolls are any level of an overall "barrier" to tourism, but I can give you one concrete example from last year: Our best friends (from greater Grand Rapids, Michigan) were heading to a family reunion being held in Brooklyn last summer. They actually did stop and factor in the effect of tolls–both highway tolls in Ohio and Pennsylvania as well as bridge tolls to get to or from Manhattan–as part of their vacation plans. Maybe it's just a "Michigander's mindset" thing, where we generally only have to have either $4.00 or $8.00 in our pocket to get anywhere in our state, aside from the cost of gas, of course, but it something that at least some people do consider.

[bessertc]

Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org this morning:

• Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961)

Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... 

[JoePCool14]

Road construction and maintenance in Michigan is primarily funded by the gas tax.  With EVs becoming more and more popular (and eventually likely compulsory), the revenue from the gas tax will only decrease, and will start to disproportionately put the burden of funding roads on gasoline car owners, so how else would funding continue?  There has to be some kind of tax increase somewhere else to cover it, so why not directly tax those using the road via tolls?  The only other obvious route would be to put an additional tax on electric utilities.

This proposal is pointless in an era of gasoline cars, but given the context of the change in how cars are powered, it makes sense.

The other proposal that's being thrown around is a straight-up mileage tax. You pay a tax directly based on how many miles you drive, regardless of where you drove them. I'm not sure where and how I'd prefer my taxes to be calculated, but one thing is for certain: I'd prefer the criminals holding the purse strings not waste our money. Then maybe they'd actually have the funds to fix our infrastructure.

If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.

Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you lived in Chicagoland?

[Rothman]

Well, to answer your question, I still find your assertion that Michigan is a tourist destination because of some lack of tolls to not be well-founded.  Like said elsewhere, you need a citation backing your opinion up with some real data or information.

People still flood toll-filled states for tourism.  Heck, New York City itself receives tens of millions of tourists per year -- probably just as many or more than MI as a whole -- and you have to pay to get in that city.

New England is flooded with tourists and of course, Florida.

MI is hardly a tourist mecca on the same level, despite the quality of the draws.

Actually, the amount of tourist dollars spent in Michigan is massive and, aside from the auto industry–and we know how fickle that can be–it's the second-largest driver of the state's economy. And while we're not the agricultural powerhouse on the level of many of the Great Plains states or California, ag and forestry are also HUGE parts of the state's economy, so for tourism to be No.2, that's saying a lot. I found this data that may be pertinent: "According to Tourism Economics, Michigan hosted 113.4 million visitors who spent $22.8 billion in the state. Domestic and overseas travelers spent $21.3 billion and $1.5 billion, respectively. The report showed visitor spending directly supports more than 214,000 Michigan jobs." So, Florida and California may be tourism hotspots, especially for international travelers, but for domestic/Canadian travelers, Michigan and its Great Lakes are a huge draw.

As for the idea that a lack of toll roads in the state helps draw tourists, that's been a statistic that's been cited by transportation and state tourism officials since the 1950s. It was one of the reasons the Toledo—Detroit—Saginaw Toll Road (which was actually in the planning stages in the late 1950s) as well as the proposed Detroit—Chicago Toll Road were both eventually abandoned. Michigan was always cited as a "destination state" for both tourism and economic reasons, being off the main transcontinental routes, although this was well before the concept of NAFTA was a thing and before Detroit became the single busiest international border crossing in terms of trade and commerce. I'm not sure where the original "statistic" came from that people have been citing for over 65 years now, but it's been something oft-quoted that entire time.

And I don't know how true it is that tolls are any level of an overall "barrier" to tourism, but I can give you one concrete example from last year: Our best friends (from greater Grand Rapids, Michigan) were heading to a family reunion being held in Brooklyn last summer. They actually did stop and factor in the effect of tolls–both highway tolls in Ohio and Pennsylvania as well as bridge tolls to get to or from Manhattan–as part of their vacation plans. Maybe it's just a "Michigander's mindset" thing, where we generally only have to have either $4.00 or $8.00 in our pocket to get anywhere in our state, aside from the cost of gas, of course, but it something that at least some people do consider.

NY state on its own has over twice the tourists per year than MI (266m), which helps to put your MI statistics in proper perspective.  Sure, they look big on their own, but in the grand scheme of things, they are merely above average.  And, of course, to be fair, NY has tourist draws of a more global nature than MI (Statue of Liberty, Niagara Falls, Broadway, etc.), so strength of interest also comes into play.

Per border crossing data for trucks, Laredo, TX makes Detroit, MI look like a very distant second per USDOT, but freight data is quite volatile over time (still scratching my head over how Port of New York/NJ beat out Long Beach and New Orleans for a recent quarter for busiest port in U.S.):  https://explore.dot.gov/views/BorderCrossingData/CrossingRank?%3Aembed=y.  Even broader slices of the data makes Detroit fall lower in the current rankings.

Still, the idea of tolls being a strong deterrent to tourism just doesn't seem well-founded when states with tolls, either within or en route to get to them, have truly gargantuan tourist numbers.

Yes, there are going to be anecdotes about those people that need to shunpike or do so out of some extreme adherence to principle, but the traffic volumes on our nation's major toll roads and bridges speak for themselves.

[GaryV]

Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org this morning:

• Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961)

Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... 

Makes some of the fictional proposals on this site seem tame in comparison.

[JREwing78]

Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org this morning:

   
• Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961)

Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... 

That is excellent. A nice one-stop place to see the fever dreams of highway planners from way back when. It also helps make some of the freeway stubs make more sense for folks.

For example:
- the 4-lane Niles bypass
- the short stub of M-60 freeway on the west side of Jackson
- the wide ROW of US-127 between Jackson and US-12
- the long section of freeway ROW M-52 rides atop between Adrian and Manchester

I'll add a third freeway segment not shown on the map to your list: M-6

[Terry Shea]

If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.

Absolutely! 

[Flint1979]

Road construction and maintenance in Michigan is primarily funded by the gas tax.  With EVs becoming more and more popular (and eventually likely compulsory), the revenue from the gas tax will only decrease, and will start to disproportionately put the burden of funding roads on gasoline car owners, so how else would funding continue?  There has to be some kind of tax increase somewhere else to cover it, so why not directly tax those using the road via tolls?  The only other obvious route would be to put an additional tax on electric utilities.

This proposal is pointless in an era of gasoline cars, but given the context of the change in how cars are powered, it makes sense.

The other proposal that's being thrown around is a straight-up mileage tax. You pay a tax directly based on how many miles you drive, regardless of where you drove them. I'm not sure where and how I'd prefer my taxes to be calculated, but one thing is for certain: I'd prefer the criminals holding the purse strings not waste our money. Then maybe they'd actually have the funds to fix our infrastructure.

If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.

Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you lived in Chicagoland?

I have lived there and I shunpiked those roads too.

[Terry Shea]

Good lord, people, even MDOT says tolls may discourage tourism!

"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf

Is that enough citation for you laxative junkies?

Now, please show some citation that constructing toll roads will improve tourism in Michigan!

[Terry Shea]

Road construction and maintenance in Michigan is primarily funded by the gas tax.  With EVs becoming more and more popular (and eventually likely compulsory), the revenue from the gas tax will only decrease, and will start to disproportionately put the burden of funding roads on gasoline car owners, so how else would funding continue?  There has to be some kind of tax increase somewhere else to cover it, so why not directly tax those using the road via tolls?  The only other obvious route would be to put an additional tax on electric utilities.

This proposal is pointless in an era of gasoline cars, but given the context of the change in how cars are powered, it makes sense.

The other proposal that's being thrown around is a straight-up mileage tax. You pay a tax directly based on how many miles you drive, regardless of where you drove them. I'm not sure where and how I'd prefer my taxes to be calculated, but one thing is for certain: I'd prefer the criminals holding the purse strings not waste our money. Then maybe they'd actually have the funds to fix our infrastructure.

If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.

Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you lived in Chicagoland?

I don't live there, I wouldn't live there, and I won't even visit that Hellhole anymore!  The last time I did visit there I inadvertently blew through 2 toll pay zones.  I saw the 3rd one, stopped and was told I didn't have to worry about it, so I didn't.  Everything about Chicago sucks now!  I remember when The Museum of Science and Industry was free to park and cost $5!  As of about 10 years ago, it cost $20 bucks to park and admission was similar to Disney World... maybe higher.  I'm assuming the other museums are about the same now.  Both airports suck and I refuse to fly into or out Chicago now.  Tolls everywhere and you have a better chance of getting shot than finding anything approaching being reasonably priced... especially hotels!

[triplemultiplex]

I don't live there, I wouldn't live there, and I won't even visit that Hellhole anymore!  The last time I did visit there I inadvertently blew through 2 toll pay zones.  I saw the 3rd one, stopped and was told I didn't have to worry about it, so I didn't.  Everything about Chicago sucks now!  I remember when The Museum of Science and Industry was free to park and cost $5!  As of about 10 years ago, it cost $20 bucks to park and admission was similar to Disney World... maybe higher.  I'm assuming the other museums are about the same now.  Both airports suck and I refuse to fly into or out Chicago now.  Tolls everywhere and you have a better chance of getting shot than finding anything approaching being reasonably priced... especially hotels!

Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org this morning:

• Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961)

Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... 

Some of it is downright hilarious.  A freeway to Bad Axe?  Three freeways between Detroit and Chicago?  And what's going on with that little freeway between like Adrian and Clinton? 
Also gotta love the direct freeway between Grand Rapids and Flint; that would've saved what, 5 minutes over 96->69?
Nice of them to throw the UP a bone, too.

[Rothman]

Good lord, people, even MDOT says tolls may discourage tourism!

"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf

Is that enough citation for you laxative junkies?

Perhaps you should read the entire pamphlet, which definitely is trying to persuade people of the benefits of tolling rather than criticizing it.

Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.

[pianocello]

Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org this morning:

• Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961)

Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... 

lol @ an M-21 freeway between Grand Rapids and Flint. As a lifetime visitor of St. Johns, I don't think that ever crossed my mind even in my FritzOwl-ish youth.