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Garden State Parkway

Started by Roadrunner75, July 30, 2014, 09:53:00 PM

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noelbotevera

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2015, 06:28:29 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 16, 2015, 10:22:35 PM
I would guess they were built to handle the huge amount of traffic to/from the New Jersey Turnpike and  the shore communities and Atlantic City.

Below the Express/Local setup, the GSP dwindled down to 2 lanes per direction, so you can take Atlantic City out of that reasoning.  Only today are they finally getting to widening the highway in the south, and it's really for the benefit of the entire shore region, not just Atlantic City.
Atlantic City is sort of the economic engine of South Jersey, and other shore communities such as Long Branch, Toms River, Ocean City, Cape May, and a whole lot more are mostly vacation communities for people from Pennsylvania (including Atlantic City). The 3 lane widening between exits 30-80 (including a full rehab of the Great Egg Harbor Bridge, so exit 25) was needed due to your reasoning, but also for connections to New York City and Connecticut.


PHLBOS

Quote from: noelbotevera on July 17, 2015, 06:59:08 AMAtlantic City is was sort of the economic engine of South Jersey
FTFY.

Casino gambling competition in neighboring states (especially PA) has taken a serious toll on Atlantic City's major economic engine.  Within the past year or two, as many as 5 AC casinos & adjoining hotels (including the recently-built Revel) have closed down (at least while searching for new owners).  The city's presently in a rethink mode in terms what they can do to attract more people to the city to fill in the void left by out-of-state gamblers no longer patronizing AC's casinos & hotels.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Roadrunner75

Quote from: noelbotevera on July 17, 2015, 06:59:08 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2015, 06:28:29 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 16, 2015, 10:22:35 PM
I would guess they were built to handle the huge amount of traffic to/from the New Jersey Turnpike and  the shore communities and Atlantic City.

Below the Express/Local setup, the GSP dwindled down to 2 lanes per direction, so you can take Atlantic City out of that reasoning.  Only today are they finally getting to widening the highway in the south, and it's really for the benefit of the entire shore region, not just Atlantic City.
Atlantic City is sort of the economic engine of South Jersey, and other shore communities such as Long Branch, Toms River, Ocean City, Cape May, and a whole lot more are mostly vacation communities for people from Pennsylvania (including Atlantic City). The 3 lane widening between exits 30-80 (including a full rehab of the Great Egg Harbor Bridge, so exit 25) was needed due to your reasoning, but also for connections to New York City and Connecticut.
The mainland communities (including Long Branch and Toms River mentioned above), especially from mid-Ocean County and northward are primarily year-round communities with the vacationers mostly on the barrier islands (or beachfront in Monmouth Co.).  The vast majority of Toms River, for example, has year-round residents.  We have quite a large full time population in northern Ocean County alone - over 225,000 people in just the triangle of 3 towns - Toms River, Brick and Lakewood.  The barrier island communities can somewhat turn into ghost towns during the off-season, but we manage to clog our roads just fine during January on the mainland.  I commute daily the 80-100 widening portion of the GSP, and it can get congested year round, and very frustrating to drive on a Friday afternoon with all the vacation traffic.  As much as we like the dollars coming in from Schnooki and her gang, we hate the additional traffic. 

jeffandnicole

Quote from: noelbotevera on July 17, 2015, 06:59:08 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2015, 06:28:29 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 16, 2015, 10:22:35 PM
I would guess they were built to handle the huge amount of traffic to/from the New Jersey Turnpike and  the shore communities and Atlantic City.

Below the Express/Local setup, the GSP dwindled down to 2 lanes per direction, so you can take Atlantic City out of that reasoning.  Only today are they finally getting to widening the highway in the south, and it's really for the benefit of the entire shore region, not just Atlantic City.
Atlantic City is sort of the economic engine of South Jersey, and other shore communities such as Long Branch, Toms River, Ocean City, Cape May, and a whole lot more are mostly vacation communities for people from Pennsylvania (including Atlantic City). The 3 lane widening between exits 30-80 (including a full rehab of the Great Egg Harbor Bridge, so exit 25) was needed due to your reasoning, but also for connections to New York City and Connecticut.

Technically, the Great Egg Harbor Bridge project is a replacement of the GSP Southbound bridge (actually, there are 2 bridges being replaced), not a rehab project.  While the finished bridges will still carry two lanes southbound, the bridges will be wider than the existing structures put together.  A 7' left shoulder and 24' wide shoulder will be part of the roadway, allowing for a 3rd lane widening to be included in the future.  A walking/bike path is included as well, similar to the Rt. 52 Causeway Bridge between Somers Point & OCNJ.

The former US 9 bridge is being demolished as part of this project as well, and will not be replaced.

There is no planned widening of the GSP between Exits 25 & 30 anytime soon.

Roadrunner75

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2015, 11:33:01 AM
The former US 9 bridge is being demolished as part of this project as well, and will not be replaced.
Maybe someday they'll get around to formally acknowledging the rerouting of US 9 (or has this finally been done?), and put up some proper signage.  If I recall, signage is very poor to non-existent on the south side of the bridge at CR 623 for the "temporary" rerouting while at one time soon after the closure there was a more prominent display of the detour.

J Route Z


bzakharin

Quote from: J Route Z on July 24, 2015, 03:12:17 PM
Active construction near exits 36-38 in Egg Harbor Twp: http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/garden-state-parkway-construction-project-focuses-on-new-exits/article_7bfd4d8a-3187-11e5-9deb-3ff061500a54.html
This has been going on for awhile. I really wish they'd provide updates on lane closures on Tilton Road (as well as any others related to this project) in real time on VMSs and via 511 so drivers could make an intelligent choice about which exits to take. Similarly "2 lanes closed 1/2 mile ahead" doesn't cut it on the ACE when there's no exit before said closure. It's like they don't care about Atlantic County, but at the same time, they're doing these projects, so they do care? Make up your mind.

Roadrunner75

The Toms River tolls finally opened a third NB express EZ Pass lane in the former shoulder.  This should help the less aggressive drivers entering at 83 who want to get over to the express lanes.  Further north, the new overhead BGS for the future NB 91 interchange was sitting on the ground and partially obscured, but it looks like this exit will be signed for Herbertsville, a section of Brick.

Was it absolutely necessary (i.e. MUTCD requirement) to sign the single ramps to C/D lanes that serve multiple exits (SB new 89 and modified 91) with the exits in reverse alphabetical order.  Yes, going southbound through the C/D lanes you will hit in order, 89C, 89B and 89A, but I think it's a little silly to sign the single ramp from the mainline as 89 C-B-A and not 89 A-B-C.  My wife asked this question, and the best I could answer was that it was probably some new silly requirement or somebody being overly technical.  I don't recall this type of thing being signed this way for other C/D lane situations in the past (NJ 55 at exit 32 A-B, for example).

Don'tKnowYet

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 25, 2015, 02:29:06 PM

Was it absolutely necessary (i.e. MUTCD requirement) to sign the single ramps to C/D lanes that serve multiple exits (SB new 89 and modified 91) with the exits in reverse alphabetical order.  Yes, going southbound through the C/D lanes you will hit in order, 89C, 89B and 89A, but I think it's a little silly to sign the single ramp from the mainline as 89 C-B-A and not 89 A-B-C.  My wife asked this question, and the best I could answer was that it was probably some new silly requirement or somebody being overly technical.  I don't recall this type of thing being signed this way for other C/D lane situations in the past (NJ 55 at exit 32 A-B, for example).

It is to obtain symmetry when symmetry can be obtained.  It is helpful for those that give directions to only have to give directions to the same exit.  For example, NJ 33 westbound is 100 in the NB direction and 100B in the SB direction because someone decided to count up the suffixes in the southbound direction. Lets assume the northbound exits didnt have the integer 100 and just started with 100A, then both directions to NJ 33 westbound would be 100A.  Now i presume someone, like a business, would have to explain why they are at different exit numbers in opposite directions instead of just saying, "I'm off Exit 100A".

Why it doesnt exactly provide symmetry at 89 is because they didnt build the NB to EB 70 direct connection.

jeffandnicole

Exit letters and numbers will be in forward order going north, and reverse order going south. It's always been this way; nothing new.

Roadrunner75

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2015, 03:19:16 PM
Exit letters and numbers will be in forward order going north, and reverse order going south. It's always been this way; nothing new.
In response to this and the comment above - I think you may be missing the point of my question.  Yes, the actual exits themselves would be in the order you describe, and I do agree that this makes sense and is required.  My question was specific to a single ramp that leads to the C/D lane that serves multiple exits.  For example, the single ramp at 89 has one BGS that indicates that it leads to 89 C-B-A.  Even though once you are in the C/D lanes (after the toll in this case) you will approach the exits in this order (C-B-A), I don't see why the single ramp sign can't list them as 89 A-B-C, regardless of the order you approach them once in the C/D lane.  I believe in the past I have seen (as in my NJ Route 55 example), the single ramp sign list them in alphabetical order regardless of the direction of approach.   Obviously, when there is not a C/D lane, you will typically have separate signage for each that will list them in their correct order for direction (i.e. if no C/D lanes, then there would be separate exits for C, B and then A).

Since the single ramp leads to all three exits, it doesn't really matter what order the letters are in, and I would think (and it seems to me has been more common in the past) for them to be listed in alphabetical order.  If the single ramp lead to separate exit numbers (say if 88 remained and the ramp led to 89 and 88) then I could see a better argument for reverse order (89 and 88) than with letter suffixes.

roadman65

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 25, 2015, 03:53:28 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2015, 03:19:16 PM
Exit letters and numbers will be in forward order going north, and reverse order going south. It's always been this way; nothing new.
In response to this and the comment above - I think you may be missing the point of my question.  Yes, the actual exits themselves would be in the order you describe, and I do agree that this makes sense and is required.  My question was specific to a single ramp that leads to the C/D lane that serves multiple exits.  For example, the single ramp at 89 has one BGS that indicates that it leads to 89 C-B-A.  Even though once you are in the C/D lanes (after the toll in this case) you will approach the exits in this order (C-B-A), I don't see why the single ramp sign can't list them as 89 A-B-C, regardless of the order you approach them once in the C/D lane.  I believe in the past I have seen (as in my NJ Route 55 example), the single ramp sign list them in alphabetical order regardless of the direction of approach.   Obviously, when there is not a C/D lane, you will typically have separate signage for each that will list them in their correct order for direction (i.e. if no C/D lanes, then there would be separate exits for C, B and then A).

Since the single ramp leads to all three exits, it doesn't really matter what order the letters are in, and I would think (and it seems to me has been more common in the past) for them to be listed in alphabetical order.  If the single ramp lead to separate exit numbers (say if 88 remained and the ramp led to 89 and 88) then I could see a better argument for reverse order (89 and 88) than with letter suffixes.

I like what VDOT does in Petersburg at the I-95/I-85/ US 460 tangle.  They do it in order and appears so neat even with four different suffixed ramps.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/6819058447/in/album-72157629188899539/
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Roadrunner75

Quote from: roadman65 on July 25, 2015, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 25, 2015, 03:53:28 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2015, 03:19:16 PM
Exit letters and numbers will be in forward order going north, and reverse order going south. It's always been this way; nothing new.
In response to this and the comment above - I think you may be missing the point of my question.  Yes, the actual exits themselves would be in the order you describe, and I do agree that this makes sense and is required.  My question was specific to a single ramp that leads to the C/D lane that serves multiple exits.  For example, the single ramp at 89 has one BGS that indicates that it leads to 89 C-B-A.  Even though once you are in the C/D lanes (after the toll in this case) you will approach the exits in this order (C-B-A), I don't see why the single ramp sign can't list them as 89 A-B-C, regardless of the order you approach them once in the C/D lane.  I believe in the past I have seen (as in my NJ Route 55 example), the single ramp sign list them in alphabetical order regardless of the direction of approach.   Obviously, when there is not a C/D lane, you will typically have separate signage for each that will list them in their correct order for direction (i.e. if no C/D lanes, then there would be separate exits for C, B and then A).

Since the single ramp leads to all three exits, it doesn't really matter what order the letters are in, and I would think (and it seems to me has been more common in the past) for them to be listed in alphabetical order.  If the single ramp lead to separate exit numbers (say if 88 remained and the ramp led to 89 and 88) then I could see a better argument for reverse order (89 and 88) than with letter suffixes.

I like what VDOT does in Petersburg at the I-95/I-85/ US 460 tangle.  They do it in order and appears so neat even with four different suffixed ramps.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/6819058447/in/album-72157629188899539/
This sign is what I'm talking about - a single BGS for C/D lanes.  Regardless of direction of approach, it can list the suffixed letters in alphabetical order.

Don'tKnowYet

I live in VA. Nothing VDOT does is a model for anything.

odditude

Here's another example on I-295 SB - C/D lanes, exits listed in actual order.

Roadrunner75

Yet, here's a few examples the other way:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.492578,-75.070774,3a,75y,211.08h,83.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFYPiJN_uljNd7dkxVE96Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.892967,-75.226449,3a,75y,322.86h,86.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQfQhS3Mws1dqZlddR14K3Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I just took a quick look through MUTCD and don't see anything that specifically addresses this situation (their only example is in the NB/EB direction, with the exits increasing).  I do see a few other examples in Streetview of B-A signage, along the 95 NE corridor.  In one way it does make sense, but when it gets to 3 suffixes and the C/D lane exit is well in advance of the actual exits (like the GSP's 89), it just doesn't look right to me but I'll get over it.


NJRoadfan

I'm surprised that Exit 129 southbound didn't get lettered exits. I guess they were dead set on the NJTP maintaining the same number in both directions.

roadman65

Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 26, 2015, 01:56:56 PM
I'm surprised that Exit 129 southbound didn't get lettered exits. I guess they were dead set on the NJTP maintaining the same number in both directions.
Actually that would work well coming NB. If US 9 N Bound would get 127A and if NJ 440 S Bound would get 127B, and NJ 440 N Bound and the connector to Smith Street and Florida Grove Road would be 127C.

Also reverse exit numbering works perfect in Ocoee, FL for Exit 267 on the FL Tpk.  If you look at the interchange in both directions FL  50 comes first and then FL 429.  Its a neat situation where the A and B works well in both directions for the same exact exits.  Going NB it goes with the flow and SB goes against it, but it works out where A and B are in sequential order both ways.

What gets me is Exit 100 does have confusion.  Going SB Exit 100 A is for NJ 33 E Bound and going NB Exit 100A is for NJ 66.  Then going NB you have Exit 100 without a letter suffix for NJ 33 E Bound (typical GSP with a whole number plus letter suffixes like the NJ 37 and ACE interchanges) which I am surprised made out for well over 60 years.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

storm2k

Quote from: roadman65 on July 26, 2015, 03:10:14 PM
What gets me is Exit 100 does have confusion.  Going SB Exit 100 A is for NJ 33 E Bound and going NB Exit 100A is for NJ 66.  Then going NB you have Exit 100 without a letter suffix for NJ 33 E Bound (typical GSP with a whole number plus letter suffixes like the NJ 37 and ACE interchanges) which I am surprised made out for well over 60 years.

That was pretty typical for the NJ Highway Authority (previous owner of the Parkway before it merged with the Turnpike Authority). It's also why there is 117 and 117A. These things are being corrected as the NJTA replaces signs and updates to a more MUTCD-compliant signage plan. The days for 100-100A-100B are likely numbered.

roadman65

Irvington is another with the 143 going northbound.  And southbound is 143-143A-143B and that one with B being the last closer to the south for Lyons Avenue E Bound via Union Avenue.

Although it works out well as to say Irvington proper from both directions uses 143 even though they are at different locations.   One thing we know for sure that urban areas are always confusing with ramps so close to each other.  Look at I-4 in Orlando using two completely different exit numbers for FL 50 from each direction due to a c/d road going WB but going EB it is two separate diverging ramps.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

storm2k

Quote from: roadman65 on July 27, 2015, 02:27:42 PM
Irvington is another with the 143 going northbound.  And southbound is 143-143A-143B and that one with B being the last closer to the south for Lyons Avenue E Bound via Union Avenue.

Although it works out well as to say Irvington proper from both directions uses 143 even though they are at different locations.   One thing we know for sure that urban areas are always confusing with ramps so close to each other.  Look at I-4 in Orlando using two completely different exit numbers for FL 50 from each direction due to a c/d road going WB but going EB it is two separate diverging ramps.

Another thing I'm sure will be fixed when they do a sign replacement project in those locations.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Don'tKnowYet on July 25, 2015, 09:08:40 PM
I live in VA. Nothing VDOT does is a model for anything.

I don't live in Virginia, but I believe you sell VDOT short (and it seems to me that bashing of VDOT should be considered the official state sport of the Commonwealth).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

noelbotevera

Quote from: roadman65 on July 27, 2015, 02:27:42 PM
Irvington is another with the 143 going northbound.  And southbound is 143-143A-143B and that one with B being the last closer to the south for Lyons Avenue E Bound via Union Avenue.

Although it works out well as to say Irvington proper from both directions uses 143 even though they are at different locations.   One thing we know for sure that urban areas are always confusing with ramps so close to each other.  Look at I-4 in Orlando using two completely different exit numbers for FL 50 from each direction due to a c/d road going WB but going EB it is two separate diverging ramps.
Yep. This problem I've seen in PA too. On I-83 SB approaching the Eisenhower Interchange in Harrisburg, US 322 is signed as exit 47, then I-283 is signed as exit 46. I-83 NB here gets 46A for I-283, and 46B for US 322.

roadman65

Quote from: noelbotevera on July 29, 2015, 01:52:41 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 27, 2015, 02:27:42 PM
Irvington is another with the 143 going northbound.  And southbound is 143-143A-143B and that one with B being the last closer to the south for Lyons Avenue E Bound via Union Avenue.

Although it works out well as to say Irvington proper from both directions uses 143 even though they are at different locations.   One thing we know for sure that urban areas are always confusing with ramps so close to each other.  Look at I-4 in Orlando using two completely different exit numbers for FL 50 from each direction due to a c/d road going WB but going EB it is two separate diverging ramps.
Yep. This problem I've seen in PA too. On I-83 SB approaching the Eisenhower Interchange in Harrisburg, US 322 is signed as exit 47, then I-283 is signed as exit 46. I-83 NB here gets 46A for I-283, and 46B for US 322.
Yes that is the challenge that engineers face.  Sometimes consistency can be so confusing because of ramp locations.  US 322 EB departs I-83 SB at a different location than the NB exit for the same road.  In fact US 322 EB does concur with the NB lanes of I-83 briefly and eventually exits again at the NB exit to continue.  So in essence US 322 EB actually uses both SB and NB exits.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Roadsguy

Quote from: roadman65 on July 30, 2015, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on July 29, 2015, 01:52:41 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 27, 2015, 02:27:42 PM
Irvington is another with the 143 going northbound.  And southbound is 143-143A-143B and that one with B being the last closer to the south for Lyons Avenue E Bound via Union Avenue.

Although it works out well as to say Irvington proper from both directions uses 143 even though they are at different locations.   One thing we know for sure that urban areas are always confusing with ramps so close to each other.  Look at I-4 in Orlando using two completely different exit numbers for FL 50 from each direction due to a c/d road going WB but going EB it is two separate diverging ramps.
Yep. This problem I've seen in PA too. On I-83 SB approaching the Eisenhower Interchange in Harrisburg, US 322 is signed as exit 47, then I-283 is signed as exit 46. I-83 NB here gets 46A for I-283, and 46B for US 322.
Yes that is the challenge that engineers face.  Sometimes consistency can be so confusing because of ramp locations.  US 322 EB departs I-83 SB at a different location than the NB exit for the same road.  In fact US 322 EB does concur with the NB lanes of I-83 briefly and eventually exits again at the NB exit to continue.  So in essence US 322 EB actually uses both SB and NB exits.

Actually, loop carrying 322 EB doesn't merge in until after 83 exits itself. There's a short median-separated section.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.



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