Twice yesterday on my bike ride, I got into a left turn lane, signaled left (as required by law) and waited for a gap in traffic to make my turn–exactly as I would in my car, the only difference being an outstretched left arm serving as a turn signal inst

[empirestate]

From the Illinois Secretary of State, Illinois Rules of the Road, page 22:

A driver must yield the right-of-way to other drivers or pedestrians:

* To oncoming traffic when making a left-hand turn. If you enter an intersection while
the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red.

* Even after the light turns green when there are vehicles in the intersection.

Chapter 4 Study Questions:

3.  How should a driver proceed if within an intersection waiting to make a left turn
and the traffic signal light turns red?
a.  Wait in the intersection until the light turns green.
b.  Yield to oncoming traffic and complete the turn.
c.  Make sure it is clear, then back up from the intersection.

The correct answer is b.

Yeah, that's how it's done, although the fact that this isn't universally understood sheds some light on things, such as Florida. Are their drivers taught differently, and if so, is it because Florida itself teaches them differently, or because so many Floridians didn't learn to drive in Florida?

[PHLBOS]

Bold emphasis added:

Yeah, that's how it's done, although the fact that this isn't universally understood sheds some light on things, such as Florida. Are their drivers taught differently, and if so, is it because Florida itself teaches them differently, or because so many Floridians didn't learn to drive in Florida?

Given the number of transplants to the Sunshine State, I would say Number 3 in your post.

[jakeroot]

Just my own two off-topic cents:

Most countries in the world that I've studied wait in the intersection to turn. In fact, America seems to be only place in the world where that isn't entirely common practice. Even Canada waits in the center of the intersection. Many countries even paint little boxes in the intersection where you should wait to turn.

As for here in America, California also instructs its drivers to wait in the intersection. As they put it, "the light is green, you may legally enter the intersection". The color when you leave is irrelevant -- you passed the stop line on green, there's no running of the light. And traffic already in the intersection has priority, so there's no concern about blocking traffic (which doesn't happen anyway, since you are always able to leave when the light turns yellow or red, as oncoming traffic always stop).

[Brandon]

Just my own two off-topic cents:

Most countries in the world that I've studied wait in the intersection to turn. In fact, America seems to be only place in the world where that isn't entirely common practice.

Even then, it seems to be a distinct minority that will not enter the intersection.  I encounter it mostly with folks who hail from downstate in Illinois (Bloomington, Peoria, etc.).

[vdeane]

There are also a couple of lights through which I pass regularly where the green arrow is at the end of the cycle, rather than the beginning, and the people who pull out to wait often can't see the light and don't know the green arrow is on until either they realize why the people going the other way stopped or someone honks. If they stopped behind the line, they could see the light.

On the other hand, when the lead car pulls into the intersection, no matter how heavy oncoming traffic is, that car is guaranteed to get through the light (when it turns red and forces oncoming traffic to stop).  Waiting behind the stop line removes that guarantee.  It also increases the time needed to turn, by putting everyone further back.  Both factors decrease the left turn throughput of the intersection.  In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.

[PaulRAnderson]

In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.

If there is a sensor in the left lane, staying behind the line would help the chances that you will all get to go through.  I have seen intersections where all the cars waiting to turn left are in the intersection and are still there when the light for the other road turns green.  If the left-turners had waited, their light would not have turned red as quickly.

Paul

[jakeroot]

In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.

If there is a sensor in the left lane, staying behind the line would help the chances that you will all get to go through.  I have seen intersections where all the cars waiting to turn left are in the intersection and are still there when the light for the other road turns green.  If the left-turners had waited, their light would not have turned red as quickly.

But if they're all in the intersection, they're all guaranteed the chance to go. If anyone else shows up and they have to sit behind the stop line (because they physically can't move any further), then they will sit on the sensor and the light will, potentially, stay green longer. Either way, you can't lose.

[1995hoo]

There are also a couple of lights through which I pass regularly where the green arrow is at the end of the cycle, rather than the beginning, and the people who pull out to wait often can't see the light and don't know the green arrow is on until either they realize why the people going the other way stopped or someone honks. If they stopped behind the line, they could see the light.

On the other hand, when the lead car pulls into the intersection, no matter how heavy oncoming traffic is, that car is guaranteed to get through the light (when it turns red and forces oncoming traffic to stop).  Waiting behind the stop line removes that guarantee.  It also increases the time needed to turn, by putting everyone further back.  Both factors decrease the left turn throughput of the intersection.  In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.

Ultimately the way I see it is that I decide where I can best see the traffic coming the other way, the traffic light, etc., and if someone else doesn't like my decision, that's not my problem. I'm not looking to delay them, but I'm not going to do something I feel might be unsafe just because someone else has to wait a little longer. It's more or less routine to have a couple of cars fly through after a light turns red around here, so I err on the side of not taking chances. (Plus we don't have any car payments and I'd like to keep it that way.....)

Back when I learned to drive I was a lot more likely to pull out into the intersection than I am now, due primarily to the proliferation in more recent years of larger vehicles that just make it hard to see. In the late 1980s the minivans weren't nearly as common as they are now and the SUV fad hadn't really hit yet, so it was typically easier to see.

Regardless of all that, one thing I NEVER do is pull out with my front wheels turned to the left the way some people do. If you get rear-ended, you'll be pushed into oncoming traffic. So this issue also factors into whether I pull out or not–if someone coming the other way has pulled out in a position that would require me to turn my wheels if I pull out, I will always stay behind the line.

I suppose the moderators ought to split off the "pull out to turn left" discussion from the "wave someone out" discussion because it's a totally different issue.

[Brandon]

In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.

If there is a sensor in the left lane, staying behind the line would help the chances that you will all get to go through.  I have seen intersections where all the cars waiting to turn left are in the intersection and are still there when the light for the other road turns green.  If the left-turners had waited, their light would not have turned red as quickly.

Paul

That's not how the sensors work, at least around here.  Once tripped, it usually has a set time for being green, regardless of how many vehicles are there.

[UCFKnights]

From the Illinois Secretary of State, Illinois Rules of the Road, page 22:

A driver must yield the right-of-way to other drivers or pedestrians:

* To oncoming traffic when making a left-hand turn. If you enter an intersection while
the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red.

* Even after the light turns green when there are vehicles in the intersection.

Chapter 4 Study Questions:

3.  How should a driver proceed if within an intersection waiting to make a left turn
and the traffic signal light turns red?
a.  Wait in the intersection until the light turns green.
b.  Yield to oncoming traffic and complete the turn.
c.  Make sure it is clear, then back up from the intersection.

The correct answer is b.

Yeah, that's how it's done, although the fact that this isn't universally understood sheds some light on things, such as Florida. Are their drivers taught differently, and if so, is it because Florida itself teaches them differently, or because so many Floridians didn't learn to drive in Florida?

Florida is the same way as well, at least, thats what they teach at the DMV and I'd say most people do it (although there are plenty of people who put their car in reverse instead of completing the turn when the light turns red, which is highly illegal). Florida's law says you cannot enter the intersection on red, but if you are already in it, you should complete your movement after yielding.

[bzakharin]

I don't know what the law is in NJ, but the way I do it (when protected left precedes permissive left and it is currently the permissive phase) is, if there is already a car or 2 in the intersection, I'll follow them in. If there is not, I will generally wait to enter the intersection until I see a *potential* break in the oncoming traffic. If I misjudged it or the light cycles to red shortly after I entered the intersection, so be it. It doesn't happen very often. I think that's pretty much in line with what I see others do, although many seem to enter the intersection regardless.

[empirestate]

Yeah, that's how it's done, although the fact that this isn't universally understood sheds some light on things, such as Florida. Are their drivers taught differently, and if so, is it because Florida itself teaches them differently, or because so many Floridians didn't learn to drive in Florida?

Florida is the same way as well, at least, thats what they teach at the DMV and I'd say most people do it (although there are plenty of people who put their car in reverse instead of completing the turn when the light turns red, which is highly illegal). Florida's law says you cannot enter the intersection on red, but if you are already in it, you should complete your movement after yielding.

Interesting; I wonder if it's different in Miami than Orlando? I just spent about a month in North Miami and saw almost nobody pull out to turn left. To be fair, though, there were a couple of spots where, having pulled out to turn left, one could get stuck after the light turns red because of oncoming traffic having an extended green phase.

[1995hoo]

The extended green thing is one reason why I'm reluctant to pull out if I'm unfamiliar with the intersection. I've been enough places where they don't put up the warning sign that I'm now wary of that.

[Pete from Boston]

I have heard, but not confirmed, that the rule here is that you have run the red light only if all wheels cross the stop line after the light turns red.

[Brandon]

I have heard, but not confirmed, that the rule here is that you have run the red light only if all wheels cross the stop line after the light turns red.

That is the rule in Illinois.  You can sit in the intersection all damn day after it has turned red if you need to should traffic not yet clear as long as you enter on green or yellow.  That rule even extends to red light cameras.  Once you enter on green or yellow, the camera's existence does not matter.

[cl94]

I have heard, but not confirmed, that the rule here is that you have run the red light only if all wheels cross the stop line after the light turns red.

That is the rule in Illinois.  You can sit in the intersection all damn day after it has turned red if you need to should traffic not yet clear as long as you enter on green or yellow.  That rule even extends to red light cameras.  Once you enter on green or yellow, the camera's existence does not matter.

New York agrees, as long as you don't stop in the intersection

[1995hoo]

As a semi-semantic matter, I find it interesting that some folks apparently feel that if a state's law allows you to enter the intersection, you must do so. Obviously, that's not the case.

[cl94]

As a semi-semantic matter, I find it interesting that some folks apparently feel that if a state's law allows you to enter the intersection, you must do so. Obviously, that's not the case.

It's not, but it's proper practice. You won't get a ticket for not doing so, but you might have to wait several cycles to make your turn if you don't enter the intersection.

[jakeroot]

As a semi-semantic matter, I find it interesting that some folks apparently feel that if a state's law allows you to enter the intersection, you must do so. Obviously, that's not the case.

Some might consider not pulling into the intersection as impeding the flow of traffic. Some. Maybe.

[1995hoo]

As a semi-semantic matter, I find it interesting that some folks apparently feel that if a state's law allows you to enter the intersection, you must do so. Obviously, that's not the case.

It's not, but it's proper practice. You won't get a ticket for not doing so, but you might have to wait several cycles to make your turn if you don't enter the intersection.

As has already been shown, it's not necessarily "proper practice" everywhere (see the posts above about Oregon prohibiting being in the intersection when the light turns red, for example). This is the other thing I often find mildly amusing or frustrating about discussions of this sort–lots of people (I'm not saying anyone here in particular, nor am I thinking about members of this forum) will say things like, "People here are driving incorrectly. In California I was taught _____ and people here aren't doing that." Just because someone learned it in one state doesn't make it "right" (or, in the "pull out to turn left" case, legal) everywhere else. The principle extends to other things like speed cameras–I've seen people recommending their friends fight DC speed camera tickets because "it's not valid if the picture doesn't show your face." Wrong. That's the law in Arizona, but in DC it's exactly the opposite.

In general, any time someone says something is "the law" or "the proper practice" without specifying a particular jurisdiction, I'm immediately skeptical. Of course there are exceptions for things that may not be legally required that reflect courtesy, like not cruising for long periods in the passing lane (I say "passing lane" so as to include countries where you drive on the left). In the case of "pull out to turn left," if Oregon prohibits said maneuver, that's sufficient reason for skepticism of a blanket "proper practice" statement.

[vdeane]

If I had my way, states like Oregon would be forced to change their laws on the matter.  What are you supposed to do if you can't find a gap in the traffic there?  Sit in the travel lane until midnight?

And that's not a hypothetical... it's a situation I've encountered several times in NY alone.

[jeffandnicole]

I don't think people really were taught how to do certain things; I think they just started doing some things themselves. And then they swear that's the way it was, even though they never have proof of such "fact". Talking with one guy one day about parking on a residential street, he claims the law was you must park 13 feet away from a driveway. Now 13 feet is an oddly specific number.  And he's only a few years older than me, and I know I wasn't taught 13 feet.

[jakeroot]

Upon further investigation, Oregon actually passed a law in 2011 that permits people to enter the intersection on a flashing yellow arrow, but not a solid green...

Flashing yellow arrow signal. A driver facing a flashing yellow arrow signal, alone or in combination with other signal indications, may cautiously enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by the flashing yellow arrow signal or the movement permitted by other signals shown at the same time. A driver shall yield the right of way to other vehicles within the intersection at the time the flashing yellow arrow signal is shown. In addition, a driver turning left shall yield the right of way to other vehicles approaching from the opposite direction so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when the turning vehicle is moving across or within the intersection.

[Pete from Boston]

I don't think people really were taught how to do certain things; I think they just started doing some things themselves. And then they swear that's the way it was, even though they never have proof of such "fact". Talking with one guy one day about parking on a residential street, he claims the law was you must park 13 feet away from a driveway. Now 13 feet is an oddly specific number.  And he's only a few years older than me, and I know I wasn't taught 13 feet.

I was taught to pull into the intersection.  I didn't cross-examine this teaching, because I was 16 and didn't know how to drive, but that's what I was taught.

It's easy and not entirely unfounded to say people swear by what they think they learned.  In this case I feel pretty certain because it seemed so borderline illegal to just pull in and hang out in the intersection, and I remember falling back from early on onto "that's what they taught us."  Who knows, I could be wrong.

[1995hoo]

If I had my way, states like Oregon would be forced to change their laws on the matter.  What are you supposed to do if you can't find a gap in the traffic there?  Sit in the travel lane until midnight?

And that's not a hypothetical... it's a situation I've encountered several times in NY alone.

You know, it's funny, throughout this discussion I've been visualizing making a left turn at a doghouse signal with the permissive green, probably because off the top of my head I can't think of any left turns I've made lately at a light that didn't have a left-turn lane and a left-turn cycle of some kind (not counting left turns on residential streets or from one-way streets, of course). Until you made your comment I hadn't thought about a simple three-phase light with no turn arrow. What I'd do there would still depend on how I felt I could best see oncoming traffic, though.  I can't say I'd always pull out, nor can I say I'd never pull out.