They almost always do, although are a few exceptions. However, I don't think these freeways need to reset exit numbers at state lines:
- US 3/Everett Turnpike, MA/NH
- RI/MA 24
- I-76 in Nebraska
- I-82
- I-83 (possibly)
- I-129
- MA/RI 146
- I-195, RI/MA
- I-295, RI/MA
- I-470, OH/WV
Some of these would require a lot of renumbering (MA 24, I-83 in Pennsylvania), while others would be minimal (I-76 in Nebraska, I-295 in Massachusetts).
I-76 in Nebraska just uses I-80's exit number for the one and only exit, at I-80. That is "Exit 102".
I-129, as short as it is, actually resets crossing the Missouri River. Nebraska has Exits 1 and 2, and then Iowa has yet another Exit 1.
I-82 does indeed reset at the Columbia River.
I-280 (IL/IA) does not reset at the Mississippi River. However, exit numbers do change when I-74 joins in to follow I-74 (as I-74/280).
I-255 (IL/MO) does not reset at the Mississippi River.
Quote from: 1 on August 23, 2018, 09:40:04 AM
They almost always do, although are a few exceptions. However, I don't think these freeways need to reset exit numbers at state lines:
- US 3/Everett Turnpike, MA/NH
- RI/MA 24
- I-76 in Nebraska
- I-82
- I-83 (possibly)
- I-129
- MA/RI 146
- I-195, RI/MA
- I-295, RI/MA
- I-470, OH/WV
Some of these would require a lot of renumbering (MA 24, I-83 in Pennsylvania), while others would be minimal (I-76 in Nebraska, I-295 in Massachusetts).
I-435 Kansas City doesn't change. I-670 doesn't change (but it's only 2-3 miles long). Loops as a general rule don't appear to change
IMO if a designation continues across a state line (which only Interstates and U.S. Highways can do), exit numbers and mileposts shouldn't reset. However this would have the side effect of running into 4 digit exit numbers (which would be more common the further North and East one travels), and if a long route gets extended South or West then hundreds, possibly even thousands of mileposts would need to be relocated.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on August 23, 2018, 10:48:37 AM
IMO if a designation continues across a state line (which only Interstates and U.S. Highways can do), exit numbers and mileposts shouldn't reset. However this would have the side effect of running into 4 digit exit numbers (which would be more common the further North and East one travels), and if a long route gets extended South or West then hundreds, possibly even thousands of mileposts would need to be relocated.
Problem is, even interstates and US highways, are, at their core, state routes, maintained by a state. The feds only maintain a few roads, including those in the national parks (but not all).
The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
I think that's because I-24 re-enters Tennessee shortly thereafterward.
The Capital Beltway (I-495) does not reset. It has a convoluted exit number history. Originally the exits were numbered clockwise (per federal standards for a loop route) from Exit 1 in Virginia to Exit 38 in Maryland. A few years after I-95 was moved to the eastern side of the Beltway, Maryland changed to milepost numbers and set theirs starting at Exit 2; I-495 then inherited I-95's and continued up to Exit 41. The numbers ran (and still run) anti-clockwise because I-95 bring a 2di trumped the loop route. Virginia didn't change to milepost numbers until some years later and when they did, they initially didn't change the Beltway. Eventually they decided to continue Maryland's numbers down to the Springfield Interchange (adding Exits 43 to 57), but then the remaining eight miles got Virginia I-95 exit numbers because I-95 trumps I-495. This confuses the crap out of many people because driving straight ahead on the same road Exit 57 is followed by Exit 173!
Quote from: 1 on August 23, 2018, 09:40:04 AM
They almost always do, although are a few exceptions. However, I don't think these freeways need to reset exit numbers at state lines:
Considering that I-275 doesn't reset its exit numbers, in spite of having exits in 3 states surrounding Cincinnati, I would be in favor of consolidating I-470's exit numbers, around Wheeling, into one series.
I-76 coming from PA has an odd reset, as the first exit in NJ uses PA's numbering system (thanks DRPA). After that, it uses NJ's numbering.
Quote from: 1 on August 23, 2018, 09:40:04 AM
Up until sometime during the early 70s, I-295's exit numbers in MA indeed continued with RI's numbers.
The likely reasoning for such back then was that the highway was originally planned to continue east of I-95 in Attleboro as the northern leg of I-895. Since I-295 in MA was/is roughly 3-1/2 miles; having the numbers change at the state-line, then again at short distance (not to mention
decreasing vs. increasing) wasn't viewed as practical. When it became apparent that I-895 in this area was
not happening, MA (the DPW back then) decided to reset I-295's numbers at the state line and such remains to this day.
Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
First thing I thought of when I saw this thread.
The Capital Beltway does reset exit numbers at some point, but there aren't two sets of exit numbers in Maryland and Virginia.
US 93 (and the new I-11) reset at the Arizona-Nevada line over the Hoover Dam, but Arizona has it mileposted as an east-west route. This means there are two Exit 2s about 4 miles apart, one on either side of the line.
It's worth noting that railroads don't reset at state lines (for example, the UP is at MP 781 as it passes through Salt Lake City). But with that, you'd run the risk of 4-digit mileposts (and 4-digit exit numbers), and everyone knows that more numbers = more potential for confusion.
And in addition to everything else that's been said, when a route gets extended or truncated, it has to be re-mileposted. That requires a multi-state bureaucratic effort if mileposts don't reset at the line.
I've always thought if a route was less than 1000 miles in total length, there's no need to reset at every state line, especially in the Northeast, where states are smaller. However, four-digit exit numbers should be avoided.
Quote from: webny99 on August 23, 2018, 05:44:00 PM
I've always thought if a route was less than 1000 miles in total length, there's no need to reset at every state line, especially in the Northeast, where states are smaller. However, four-digit exit numbers should be avoided.
This is exactly what China does, they reset exit numbers every 621.37 miles so they don't have four-digit exit numbers. When I said Interstates and US Highways should have one single continuous mileposting and exit numbering, I mentioned this problem, which can be solved by reseting to zero every 1,609.344 km.
Anyway, I've seen four-digit exit numbers here in Spain, but there's only one highway longer than a megameter (= 621.37 miles :sombrero:).
I-83 does reset at the PA state line.
The MUTCD, in Section 2E.31, requires . . . "If a circumferential, loop, or spur route crosses State boundaries, the numbering sequence shall be coordinated by the States to provide continuous interchange numbering." These are 3dis.
I would consider this to mean one numbering system, but I have seen things both ways. I-495 Capital Beltway uses one numbering system in MD and VA, while I-295, both DE/NJ/PA and RI/MA, reset crossing the state line. (DE does not number the exits.)
Quote from: Brandon on August 23, 2018, 10:40:03 AM
I-280 (IL/IA) does not reset at the Mississippi River. However, exit numbers do change when I-74 joins in to follow I-74 (as I-74/280).
That's just because of the, somewhat illogical, convention that the lower Interstate Route usually controls the exit numbers.
Then again, to be fair, there is no logical reason why I-74 needs to enter Iowa, at all.
Routes like I-82 (W), really shouldn't reset, they should continue the mileage.
Quote from: US 89 on August 23, 2018, 05:14:54 PM
US 93 (and the new I-11) reset at the Arizona-Nevada line over the Hoover Dam, but Arizona has it mileposted as an east-west route. This means there are two Exit 2s about 4 miles apart, one on either side of the line.
It's worth noting that railroads don't reset at state lines (for example, the UP is at MP 781 as it passes through Salt Lake City). But with that, you'd run the risk of 4-digit mileposts (and 4-digit exit numbers), and everyone knows that more numbers = more potential for confusion.
And in addition to everything else that's been said, when a route gets extended or truncated, it has to be re-mileposted. That requires a multi-state bureaucratic effort if mileposts don't reset at the line.
Railroad mileposting sometimes extends from a central point within the whole network, like the old Southern Pacific system where everything posted from either the old 3rd & Townsend station in S.F. or, alternately, the farthest end of the old Oakland Mole, where passenger cars were originally ferried across the bay from the Ferry Building. A number of the Chicago-based "granger" lines did this as well, most notably the Chicago Great Western, which had 3 forks to St. Joseph, MO, Council Bluffs (Omaha), and Minneapolis/St. Paul; the main trunk line mileposted from Chicago to the division point of Oelwein, IA, where the branches converged; each branch took over from there to their respective termini. However, most railroads had individual territorial divisions with their own mileposting systems for simplified administrative purposes. The easiest way to read RR mileposts is to locate any line signaling (block signals); most will be posted with a code including the appropriate mileage.
I know of no instance where RR mileposts reset at state lines; being private companies, there was no need to do that in any case. As far as familiarity with mileposting -- that's what RR train crews were paid for; they needed to know their position (even in pre-GPS days) relative to other trains using that line particularly in single-track territory where one train or the other needed to enter a "passing track" (sometimes referred to as a "siding") to let another train pass.
Essentially, mileposting on rails vs. roads is the classic case of "apples & oranges"; while the purpose is the same (positioning and/or maintenance), the applied methodologies are quite different.
Quote from: akotchi on August 23, 2018, 06:41:08 PMI-495 Capital Beltway uses one numbering system in MD and VA, while I-295, both DE/NJ/PA and RI/MA, reset crossing the state line. (DE does not number the exits.)
The Beltway is a full loop and needs to reset somewhere anyway; two halves of a loop with separate numbering sequences wouldn't make much sense.
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 23, 2018, 07:55:52 PM
Quote from: akotchi on August 23, 2018, 06:41:08 PMI-495 Capital Beltway uses one numbering system in MD and VA, while I-295, both DE/NJ/PA and RI/MA, reset crossing the state line. (DE does not number the exits.)
The Beltway is a full loop and needs to reset somewhere anyway; two halves of a loop with separate numbering sequences wouldn't make much sense.
As is discussed in my post further up the thread, it had separate numbers for many years, about 20 years if my memory is accurate. Virginia maintained the original numbers from when the road opened (Exit 1 at US-1 in Alexandria up to Exit 14 at the GW Parkway; Exit 3A for the Eisenhower Connector was a later addition between Exits 2 and 3) until around 2000, while Maryland changed to milepost numbers (Exit 2 thru Exit 41) around 1980. I never heard many complaints about the duplicated numbers being too confusing, even with Virginia's Exit 2 (Telegraph Road) being pretty close to Maryland's, but evidently some people griped.
I still have trouble remembering the new exit numbers in Virginia other than my exit and the last one before the Maryland line. I know my parents' house is most easily reached from Exit 52 (was Exit 6), but I can never remember the numbers over around Tysons and I have to look them up if I need to give directions. I remember my parents' exit simply because I use it more than the others.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 08:02:45 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 23, 2018, 07:55:52 PM
Quote from: akotchi on August 23, 2018, 06:41:08 PMI-495 Capital Beltway uses one numbering system in MD and VA, while I-295, both DE/NJ/PA and RI/MA, reset crossing the state line. (DE does not number the exits.)
The Beltway is a full loop and needs to reset somewhere anyway; two halves of a loop with separate numbering sequences wouldn't make much sense.
As is discussed in my post further up the thread, it had separate numbers for many years, about 20 years if my memory is accurate. Virginia maintained the original numbers from when the road opened (Exit 1 at US-1 in Alexandria up to Exit 14 at the GW Parkway; Exit 3A for the Eisenhower Connector was a later addition between Exits 2 and 3) until around 2000, while Maryland changed to milepost numbers (Exit 2 thru Exit 41) around 1980. I never heard many complaints about the duplicated numbers being too confusing, even with Virginia's Exit 2 (Telegraph Road) being pretty close to Maryland's, but evidently some people griped.
I still have trouble remembering the new exit numbers in Virginia other than my exit and the last one before the Maryland line. I know my parents' house is most easily reached from Exit 52 (was Exit 6), but I can never remember the numbers over around Tysons and I have to look them up if I need to give directions. I remember my parents' exit simply because I use it more than the others.
It doesn't help that apparently the exit numbers from the Springfield Interchange to the Wilson Bridge are based on I-95's mileposts.
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 23, 2018, 08:36:34 PM
It doesn't help that apparently the exit numbers from the Springfield Interchange to the Wilson Bridge are based on I-95's mileposts.
They are indeed. I understand the theory that says that since I-95 is the primary route and the I-495 number there is "unofficial" (I hate the word "official"*) and is posted as a convenience to motorists, the I-95 exit numbers and mileposts take precedence. But I also live about two miles from one of those exits and so I recognize how for normal people in the real world it doesn't make sense to have exit numbers jump by almost 120 when you're simply staying on the same road (regardless of what some people say, you do not "exit" anything if you stay on the Beltway**). Having to give directions in which you explain to people that they need the next exit after Exit 57 and the sign will say Exit 173, even though it's only three miles later, is a pain–while you'd think people would just listen and accept it since you presumably know the way to your own house, they invariably find it baffling because when they pass Exit 50-something they understandably think they still have a long way to go (unless they know the area, in which case they don't need directions).
BTW, this all also results in that spot being a rare location where the exit numbers differ in every direction. On the Beltway, the Outer Loop has Exit 57 at Springfield; on the Inner Loop, it's Exit 170. On I-95 northbound, it's also Exit 170, while on I-395 it's Exit 1.
*I've come to hate the word "official" because it is so ridiculously overused despite generally being a throwaway word that does not enhance credibility. For example, there's no need to say the Capitals "officially announced" Todd Rierden as their new coach. If they made the announcement, by definition it's "official." One of the most absurd ones I saw was a statement that DC United's "official stadium site" was announced a few years ago. How would there be an "unofficial stadium site"? Either they build the stadium there or they don't. Wikipedia is one of the worst places for this sort of nonsense.
**Regarding "exiting," many, perhaps most, local drivers regard the I-95 flyover bridges as the exits, regardless of what VDOT and the MUTCD think. I can't say as I blame them given the overall interchange geometry and the number of lanes going in each direction.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 08:59:50 PM
Having to give directions in which you explain to people that they need the next exit after Exit 57 and the sign will say Exit 173, even though it's only three miles later, is a pain–while you'd think people would just listen and accept it since you presumably know the way to your own house, they invariably find it baffling because when they pass Exit 50-something they understandably think they still have a long way to go (unless they know the area, in which case they don't need directions).
Interestingly, we've experience similar in Connecticut, where... as you may be aware, the exits on the Merritt Parkway begin at 27 at the state line, continuing what the exit numbers on "the Hutch" used to be before NY bumped them up (NY's exit at the state line is now 30 instead of 27). We had someone arrive half an hour once early because when we told them they needed to take exit 35 in Connecticut they assumed they would have a lot longer to go after the state line than they actually did.
As for the original subject, my preference is that exit number reset at state lines because this is established standard to the point that drivers expect it. And, as the example above shows, can lead to confusion when it is randomly not followed.
Of course, this does also mean that exit numbers should
not reset where there is
not a state line - I also have firsthand experience with people getting confused with I-87 in New York. Tell someone they need to take I-87 north after they get off the George Washington Bridge, and then tell them they want exit 4 for the Cross County Parkway. Then when they get on I-87 north and the next exits they see are 8, then 9, then 10, they incorrectly assume they must have taken a wrong turn.
With the Capital Beltway example, I would say this is simply an inherent problem with any interstate concurrency. Changing the exit numbers to match I-495's would fix the particular problem you describe, but create a new one for drivers following I-95 north looking for an exit in the area. So that wouldn't really be any better.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 11:09:36 AM
The Capital Beltway (I-495) does not reset.
Resets at the southern Potomac River crossing.
Does not reset at the northern Potomac River crossing (you did mention that).
2dis reset mileage at state lines, as they should.
3dis reset sometimes when they cross state borders, but many times the rules for 3di mileposts are allowed to supersede any rules about state borders. This is especially true for beltways that cross the state border more than once.
The rules for 3di mileposts are MUTCD standard. So many times, the two states home to the 3di will maintain those standards over any desire to reset the mileage to zero at the border.
Quote from: US 89 on August 23, 2018, 05:14:54 PM
US 93 (and the new I-11) reset at the Arizona-Nevada line over the Hoover Dam, but Arizona has it mileposted as an east-west route. This means there are two Exit 2s about 4 miles apart, one on either side of the line.
Ditto for the Trans-Canada Highway at the QC/MB border. QC treats its part (A-85) as north-south even though it really isn't, while NB's part (NB 2) is west-east. So you have separate exit 1s on both sides of the border.
Have found it interesting that the Capitol Beltway does not reset, but nearby I-295 and I-395 do (I'm assuming it's to keep the numbers on 495 from jumping three times). 295 being especially interesting, as the southern terminus in Maryland at I-495 is marked as Exit 1, followed by another Exit 1 (at Laboratory Road) after you enter DC.
Another case of this is the St. Louis Outerbelt, where I-270 resets when it crosses the Mississippi, but I-255 doesn't.
Quote from: oscar on August 24, 2018, 10:24:24 AM
Ditto for the Trans-Canada Highway at the QC/MB border. QC treats its part (A-85) as north-south even though it really isn't, while NB's part (NB 2) is west-east. So you have separate exit 1s on both sides of the border.
In this case, one could argue that those are both parts of the same interchange split by the provincial line.
Quote from: US 89 on August 23, 2018, 05:14:54 PM
US 93 (and the new I-11) reset at the Arizona-Nevada line over the Hoover Dam, but Arizona has it mileposted as an east-west route. This means there are two Exit 2s about 4 miles apart, one on either side of the line.
This is due to Arizona choosing former US 466 over US 93. Both routes overlapped from the Nevada border to Kingman, where US 466 ended. Otherwise they sign US 93 as North-South.
Quote from: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 11:42:13 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 11:09:36 AM
The Capital Beltway (I-495) does not reset.
Resets at the southern Potomac River crossing.
Does not reset at the northern Potomac River crossing (you did mention that).
I feel that's a little hypertechnical compared to the point I was making. Of course the numbers have to restart somewhere. My point was that they originally started, and now once again start, at one location and do a full circle without resetting (though for around 20 years they did reset partway around). I think I view the Wilson Bridge area as more of a "zero point" rather than putting significance on the state/district line because the Old Town Exit used to be Exit 1 and that number worked as a point of origin for both Virginia's sequential numbers and Maryland's mile-based (the latter because Maryland's first exit east of there was Exit 2).
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on August 24, 2018, 03:38:30 PM
Quote from: US 89 on August 23, 2018, 05:14:54 PM
US 93 (and the new I-11) reset at the Arizona-Nevada line over the Hoover Dam, but Arizona has it mileposted as an east-west route. This means there are two Exit 2s about 4 miles apart, one on either side of the line.
This is due to Arizona choosing former US 466 over US 93. Both routes overlapped from the Nevada border to Kingman, where US 466 ended. Otherwise they sign US 93 as North-South.
No, 93 is
signed north-south the whole way. It's
mileposted as if it were an east-west route for its entire distance in AZ, all the way to Wickenburg. The portion of 93 past Kingman was never 466.
Source (https://www.azdot.gov/docs/business/state-milepost-map)
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 03:55:39 PM
I feel that's a little hypertechnical compared to the point I was making. Of course the numbers have to restart somewhere. My point was that they originally started, and now once again start, at one location and do a full circle without resetting (though for around 20 years they did reset partway around). I think I view the Wilson Bridge area as more of a "zero point" rather than putting significance on the state/district line because the Old Town Exit used to be Exit 1 and that number worked as a point of origin for both Virginia's sequential numbers and Maryland's mile-based (the latter because Maryland's first exit east of there was Exit 2).
There have been four different numbering schemes, and at one point three unrelated exit numbering schemes.
Looking over what I wrote in 2007 --
http://www.capital-beltway.com/Capital-Beltway-History.html#Exit-Numbering
Quote from: webny99 on August 23, 2018, 05:44:00 PM
I've always thought if a route was less than 1000 miles in total length, there's no need to reset at every state line, especially in the Northeast, where states are smaller. However, four-digit exit numbers should be avoided.
The problem with that is, if the state at the 0-mile end decides to extend the road, all the other states have to renumber.
I-275 OH/IN/KY does not reset at any state line; it has the same mileposts throughout.
I just assume that I-84 not reset at the MA state line. It's basically a 7.8 mile connection to the Mass Pike from CT.
I-684, while it doesn't have any exits in CT, maintains NY mileposts. Same with the brief NY 17 dip into PA.
I-76 in NE doesn't number the exit at its junction with I-80. It does, however, switch from E-W in CO to N-S in NE
I-59 in LA is so short (11.48 mi) it might as well not reset at the MS border.
Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
It is also maintained by TDOT, so it makes sense.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 24, 2018, 05:00:20 PM
I-76 in NE doesn't number the exit at its junction with I-80. It does, however, switch from E-W in CO to N-S in NE
NE uses the convention that the junction interstate determines the exit number, hence although the mileposts reset at the state line (and go up to 2 in NE) the exit is numbered 102.
Quote from: SD Mapman on August 24, 2018, 05:09:07 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 24, 2018, 05:00:20 PM
I-76 in NE doesn't number the exit at its junction with I-80. It does, however, switch from E-W in CO to N-S in NE
NE uses the convention that the junction interstate determines the exit number, hence although the mileposts reset at the state line (and go up to 2 in NE) the exit is numbered 102.
So that exit is 102 because
I-80 is at mile 102 there. Weird.
And in any case, I-76 wouldn’t be an example of not resetting at a state line. If Nebraska continued Colorado’s mileposts, that exit would be numbered
187.
And I never realized 80 was a TOTSO at that junction, either. 76 is set up as the mainline.
Quote from: mrcmc888 on August 24, 2018, 05:03:21 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
It is also maintained by TDOT, so it makes sense.
Maintained by TnDOT, uses Tennessee exit numbers, but mileposted for GA.
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9726788,-85.4208789,0a,75y,213.68h,91.56t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1suT_5eiym0Ck1J4MT7xK3Cw!2e0
The link starts at the exit 167 advance warning sign. Scroll forward to just past the speed limit 70 sign and you will see MP 3. Also noteworthy: 1. GSV labels I-24 as GA 409. 2. The I-24 reassurance assemblies are non-neutered Georgia shields.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Quote from sparker:
Quote
I know of no instance where RR mileposts reset at state lines; being private companies, there was no need to do that in any case.
The part of KCS's "Meridian Speedway" from Meridian to Shreveport was once part of the Illinois Central (before that the Vicksburg, Shreveport & Pacific). MP 0 is Meridian, and runs to MP 140.6 to the MS River bridge at Vicksburg. The mileposts then reset at the MS/LA state line and run MP 0 to MP 172.something where the mainline meets the original KCS north-south mainline going to Deramus yard. I have no idea why VS&P reset the mileposts like that, but it has always been that way.
And then there's the curious case of RI 146, whose numbers do reset at the MA line, but have mileposts that go up in both directions. Northbound starts at 0 heading north and west from I-95, while southbound goes up from 0 from the MA border. Hope the planned numbering of the exits based on MUTCD mileage based standards fixes this.
Quote from: US 89 on August 24, 2018, 05:18:40 PM
Quote from: SD Mapman on August 24, 2018, 05:09:07 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 24, 2018, 05:00:20 PM
I-76 in NE doesn't number the exit at its junction with I-80. It does, however, switch from E-W in CO to N-S in NE
NE uses the convention that the junction interstate determines the exit number, hence although the mileposts reset at the state line (and go up to 2 in NE) the exit is numbered 102.
So that exit is 102 because I-80 is at mile 102 there. Weird.
And in any case, I-76 wouldn't be an example of not resetting at a state line. If Nebraska continued Colorado's mileposts, that exit would be numbered 187.
And I never realized 80 was a TOTSO at that junction, either. 76 is set up as the mainline.
I-76 was once I-80S there, so that TOTSO makes sense.
Quote from: cjk374 on August 25, 2018, 06:58:23 AMAlso noteworthy: 1. GSV labels I-24 as GA 409.
Google Maps shows most of these unsigned state routes on the Interstates, though for some reason appears to omit them from I-20 (402) and I-285 (407).
Exit numbers on 3dis really shouldn't need to reset, especially when serving a multi-state metro area.
I-205 in Portland, OR and Vancouver, WA carries over its exit numbers, for example.
https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Traffic/InterstateGuide/205.htm
I-86 at the NY-PA border does not reset. This has the oddity of transitioning from mileage-based exits to sequential exits without resetting. The first NY exit, less than a mile east of the border, is Exit 4 for NY 426. I believe this is a remnant from the pre-86 days, when the Pennsylvania part of the route was numbered PA 17 (for continuity with NY 17).
Possibly sheer coincidence (the original continuous scheme was with PA sequential using exit 2; I'm not sure what exit 3 was supposed to have been), though the fact that it's near milepost 4 makes me wonder if PA deliberately went down a number to avoid duplicating NY. Also makes me wonder what NY would do if it ever went mile-based. Follow the mileposts (which are not continuous), with the exit numbers going 1A/B-3-1, or leave the first exit as 4 even though it's a couple miles off?
Another curious case would be if I-278 added exit numbers in NJ. According to Wikipedia, they have or plan to, and will us 3A-3B-3C as the numbers, while the first exit on the Staten Island side is 3. If NJ used the correct mileposts, and NY went to mileage based, you'd have 1A-1B-1C on the NJ side, then a possible 1A-1B-1C-1D on the NY side (I see NY rounds down even if over the xx.50 MP).
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 11:09:36 AM
The Capital Beltway (I-495) does not reset. It has a convoluted exit number history. Originally the exits were numbered clockwise (per federal standards for a loop route) from Exit 1 in Virginia to Exit 38 in Maryland. A few years after I-95 was moved to the eastern side of the Beltway, Maryland changed to milepost numbers and set theirs starting at Exit 2; I-495 then inherited I-95's and continued up to Exit 41. The numbers ran (and still run) anti-clockwise because I-95 bring a 2di trumped the loop route. Virginia didn't change to milepost numbers until some years later and when they did, they initially didn't change the Beltway. Eventually they decided to continue Maryland's numbers down to the Springfield Interchange (adding Exits 43 to 57), but then the remaining eight miles got Virginia I-95 exit numbers because I-95 trumps I-495. This confuses the crap out of many people because driving straight ahead on the same road Exit 57 is followed by Exit 173!
I don't understand why 95 and 495 run together on the eastern half of the Beltway while 495 also runs on the western side. Why isn't 95 the eastern half and 495 the western half? That never made sense to me.
iPad
Quote from: stwoodbury on August 27, 2018, 10:02:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 11:09:36 AM
The Capital Beltway (I-495) does not reset. It has a convoluted exit number history. Originally the exits were numbered clockwise (per federal standards for a loop route) from Exit 1 in Virginia to Exit 38 in Maryland. A few years after I-95 was moved to the eastern side of the Beltway, Maryland changed to milepost numbers and set theirs starting at Exit 2; I-495 then inherited I-95's and continued up to Exit 41. The numbers ran (and still run) anti-clockwise because I-95 bring a 2di trumped the loop route. Virginia didn't change to milepost numbers until some years later and when they did, they initially didn't change the Beltway. Eventually they decided to continue Maryland's numbers down to the Springfield Interchange (adding Exits 43 to 57), but then the remaining eight miles got Virginia I-95 exit numbers because I-95 trumps I-495. This confuses the crap out of many people because driving straight ahead on the same road Exit 57 is followed by Exit 173!
I don't understand why 95 and 495 run together on the eastern half of the Beltway while 495 also runs on the western side. Why isn't 95 the eastern half and 495 the western half? That never made sense to me.
iPad
Because the entire Beltway was I-495 before I-95 was placed on it once I-95 inside the Beltway was killed north of the Capitol area (the built portions becoming I-395). It's basically there as a legacy much like MA 128 remains on I-95 outside of Boston after I-95 was moved there once the Northeast Expressway was killed.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 27, 2018, 10:43:34 PM
Quote from: stwoodbury on August 27, 2018, 10:02:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 11:09:36 AM
The Capital Beltway (I-495) does not reset. It has a convoluted exit number history. Originally the exits were numbered clockwise (per federal standards for a loop route) from Exit 1 in Virginia to Exit 38 in Maryland. A few years after I-95 was moved to the eastern side of the Beltway, Maryland changed to milepost numbers and set theirs starting at Exit 2; I-495 then inherited I-95's and continued up to Exit 41. The numbers ran (and still run) anti-clockwise because I-95 bring a 2di trumped the loop route. Virginia didn't change to milepost numbers until some years later and when they did, they initially didn't change the Beltway. Eventually they decided to continue Maryland's numbers down to the Springfield Interchange (adding Exits 43 to 57), but then the remaining eight miles got Virginia I-95 exit numbers because I-95 trumps I-495. This confuses the crap out of many people because driving straight ahead on the same road Exit 57 is followed by Exit 173!
I don't understand why 95 and 495 run together on the eastern half of the Beltway while 495 also runs on the western side. Why isn't 95 the eastern half and 495 the western half? That never made sense to me.
iPad
Because the entire Beltway was I-495 before I-95 was placed on it once I-95 inside the Beltway was killed north of the Capitol area (the built portions becoming I-395). It's basically there as a legacy much like MA 128 remains on I-95 outside of Boston after I-95 was moved there once the Northeast Expressway was killed.
Except the eastern half was 95 and the western half was 495, for a period after 95 in DC was cancelled.
^^^^
People complained that they found it too confusing for a beltway to have split numbering like that, so eventually I-495 was posted again on the eastern side. I've sometimes thought it should have been I-95E and I-95W, though I recognize the reasons why they want thru traffic to use the eastern side.
Wikipedia says it was re-posted in 1989, although I could've sworn we took a road trip there in 1990 or 1991 and the eastern half was still only I-95. Maybe we just had an old road atlas.
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 28, 2018, 09:21:31 AM
Wikipedia says it was re-posted in 1989, although I could've sworn we took a road trip there in 1990 or 1991 and the eastern half was still only I-95. Maybe we just had an old road atlas.
Scott Kozel's website says the same. Sounds right to me because I'm pretty sure it happened before I headed off to college.
You know, it's funny, back when the number was not dual-signed, Virginia maintained the Beltway's consecutive exit numbers despite the different route numbers. I've read, but do not recall, that VDOT briefly tried using I-95's exit numbers from Springfield to the Wilson Bridge during that era but that people rebelled because it was bizarre to have exits 59, 60, and 61 ascending there while Exits 5 to 14 ascended in the other direction (towards the Legion Bridge). Those numbers didn't last long. I don't remember it at all.
I sometimes wonder if the split I-95/I-495 era is a major reason why people now seem to call it "the Beltway." When I was a kid, people usually called it "495." Nowadays I don't hear that as often except from Bob Marbourg on WTOP.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2018, 11:15:53 AM
Scott Kozel's website says the same. Sounds right to me because I'm pretty sure it happened before I headed off to college.
You know, it's funny, back when the number was not dual-signed, Virginia maintained the Beltway's consecutive exit numbers despite the different route numbers. I've read, but do not recall, that VDOT briefly tried using I-95's exit numbers from Springfield to the Wilson Bridge during that era but that people rebelled because it was bizarre to have exits 59, 60, and 61 ascending there while Exits 5 to 14 ascended in the other direction (towards the Legion Bridge). Those numbers didn't last long. I don't remember it at all.
I sometimes wonder if the split I-95/I-495 era is a major reason why people now seem to call it "the Beltway." When I was a kid, people usually called it "495." Nowadays I don't hear that as often except from Bob Marbourg on WTOP.
We moved to the area in 1969, and it was widely called "the Beltway" back then. And from then onward.
I did document the few years that VA I-95 exits 59, 60, and 61 were designated on the eastern part of the Beltway. Back then the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike still had its own exit numbering system, so VA I-95 itself did not have a single numbering system, and at that point it was a sequential numbering system.
Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
As I recall it once did reset. I-59 was Exit 2 and whatever the other exit is was Exit 4. I saw this when going to Florida back in 1992. We went again to Florida in 1999 and the exits then had been changed. But was odd is when it re entered Tennessee it resumed the exit numbering from before instead of resetting again.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2018, 11:15:53 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 28, 2018, 09:21:31 AM
Wikipedia says it was re-posted in 1989, although I could've sworn we took a road trip there in 1990 or 1991 and the eastern half was still only I-95. Maybe we just had an old road atlas.
Scott Kozel's website says the same. Sounds right to me because I'm pretty sure it happened before I headed off to college.
You know, it's funny, back when the number was not dual-signed, Virginia maintained the Beltway's consecutive exit numbers despite the different route numbers. I've read, but do not recall, that VDOT briefly tried using I-95's exit numbers from Springfield to the Wilson Bridge during that era but that people rebelled because it was bizarre to have exits 59, 60, and 61 ascending there while Exits 5 to 14 ascended in the other direction (towards the Legion Bridge). Those numbers didn't last long. I don't remember it at all.
I sometimes wonder if the split I-95/I-495 era is a major reason why people now seem to call it "the Beltway." When I was a kid, people usually called it "495." Nowadays I don't hear that as often except from Bob Marbourg on WTOP.
Also according to Wikipedia, VDOT is currently using I-95's exit numbers from Springfield to the Wilson Bridge.
Wikipedia is correct about that. I mentioned that somewhere up the thread. It still confuses people, but not as much as the old system user "Beltway" mentions two posts above yours.
Quote from: dvferyance on August 28, 2018, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
As I recall it once did reset. I-59 was Exit 2 and whatever the other exit is was Exit 4. I saw this when going to Florida back in 1992. We went again to Florida in 1999 and the exits then had been changed. But was odd is when it re entered Tennessee it resumed the exit numbering from before instead of resetting again.
That would be very strange, since Georgia didn't convert to mileage-based exit numbering until 1999-2000. If anything, surely I-59 would have been Exit 1 and GA 299 Exit 2? GDOT's official state maps in this time period only showed exit numbers in city insets, so no help there. The editions with the straight-line diagrams (1979 through 1985) show I-24 with the same exit numbers as today, 167 and 169.
Quote from: dvferyance on August 28, 2018, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
As I recall it once did reset. I-59 was Exit 2 and whatever the other exit is was Exit 4. I saw this when going to Florida back in 1992. We went again to Florida in 1999 and the exits then had been changed. But was odd is when it re entered Tennessee it resumed the exit numbering from before instead of resetting again.
NY 17 and I-684's mileposts don't reset when the cross back into NY from PA/CT. Not sure how US 340 in VA is treated in the Loudon County section since the segment is less than a mile. US 50's mileposts do reset when it re-enters Maryland from DC; the Garrett County piece is mileposted separately. Guess if the gap is insignificant (< 5-10 mi.), it's just easier to maintain the same mileposts than start anew.
Quote from: Eth on August 28, 2018, 04:40:05 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on August 28, 2018, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
As I recall it once did reset. I-59 was Exit 2 and whatever the other exit is was Exit 4. I saw this when going to Florida back in 1992. We went again to Florida in 1999 and the exits then had been changed. But was odd is when it re entered Tennessee it resumed the exit numbering from before instead of resetting again.
That would be very strange, since Georgia didn't convert to mileage-based exit numbering until 1999-2000. If anything, surely I-59 would have been Exit 1 and GA 299 Exit 2? GDOT's official state maps in this time period only showed exit numbers in city insets, so no help there. The editions with the straight-line diagrams (1979 through 1985) show I-24 with the same exit numbers as today, 167 and 169.
Maybe I am wrong about the exit numbers themselves it was 25 years ago. But I am sure that the numbers did reset when it entered Georgia. Sure explains the milepost that haven't. All I know it was changed sometime between 1992 and 1999.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2018, 08:29:43 AM
^^^^
People complained that they found it too confusing for a beltway to have split numbering like that, so eventually I-495 was posted again on the eastern side. I've sometimes thought it should have been I-95E and I-95W, though I recognize the reasons why they want thru traffic to use the eastern side.
The smaller scale "beltway" around downtown Portland functions okay with the eastern part marked as I-5 and the western part as I-405. Whether or not it fits the technical definition of a "beltway" , I used it as such when driving from US 26 or Burnside to I-84 by going in either direction on 405 and then 5 to bypass downtown Portland just like how I now would take the Capitol Beltway around DC when going from the Reston area to Bolling or Annapolis (while avoiding peak traffic times...).
iPhone
I was noticing that I-670 in Kansas/Missouri uses the same exit scheme as Exit 1B is less than a half a mile from the KS State Line, so I assume that MDOT just considers I-670 in KS to be as its own being no major exits there.
I-435 though uses one scheme starting from I-35 in Lenexa and clockwise around the city. That may be due to locals and commuters who do not care about states and if they go from one to the other its like many of us going up the road.
Quote from: stwoodbury on August 29, 2018, 04:50:40 PM
The smaller scale "beltway" around downtown Portland functions okay with the eastern part marked as I-5 and the western part as I-405. Whether or not it fits the technical definition of a "beltway" , I used it as such when driving from US 26 or Burnside to I-84 by going in either direction on 405 and then 5 to bypass downtown Portland just like how I now would take the Capitol Beltway around DC when going from the Reston area to Bolling or Annapolis (while avoiding peak traffic times...).
A circumferential freeway that loops around the central business district, would generally be called an inner loop freeway. They don't have to be a single route, as in the case of Richmond, VA with a segment of I-95, I-195 and VA-195.
The Palisades Parkway exit numbers don't reset at the NJ/NY state line. They are also sequential rather than mile-based.
Quote from: Duke87 on August 23, 2018, 09:27:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 08:59:50 PM
Having to give directions in which you explain to people that they need the next exit after Exit 57 and the sign will say Exit 173, even though it's only three miles later, is a pain–while you'd think people would just listen and accept it since you presumably know the way to your own house, they invariably find it baffling because when they pass Exit 50-something they understandably think they still have a long way to go (unless they know the area, in which case they don't need directions).
Interestingly, we've experience similar in Connecticut, where... as you may be aware, the exits on the Merritt Parkway begin at 27 at the state line, continuing what the exit numbers on "the Hutch" used to be before NY bumped them up (NY's exit at the state line is now 30 instead of 27). We had someone arrive half an hour once early because when we told them they needed to take exit 35 in Connecticut they assumed they would have a lot longer to go after the state line than they actually did.
As for the original subject, my preference is that exit number reset at state lines because this is established standard to the point that drivers expect it. And, as the example above shows, can lead to confusion when it is randomly not followed.
Of course, this does also mean that exit numbers should not reset where there is not a state line - I also have firsthand experience with people getting confused with I-87 in New York. Tell someone they need to take I-87 north after they get off the George Washington Bridge, and then tell them they want exit 4 for the Cross County Parkway. Then when they get on I-87 north and the next exits they see are 8, then 9, then 10, they incorrectly assume they must have taken a wrong turn.
With the Capital Beltway example, I would say this is simply an inherent problem with any interstate concurrency. Changing the exit numbers to match I-495's would fix the particular problem you describe, but create a new one for drivers following I-95 north looking for an exit in the area. So that wouldn't really be any better.
Exit #'s On the New Jersey Turnpike/I-95 Jump from the Exit 17 "Toll Plaza" to Free I-95 Exit 68
Quote from: mapman1071 on September 10, 2018, 11:02:53 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on August 23, 2018, 09:27:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 08:59:50 PM
Having to give directions in which you explain to people that they need the next exit after Exit 57 and the sign will say Exit 173, even though it's only three miles later, is a pain–while you'd think people would just listen and accept it since you presumably know the way to your own house, they invariably find it baffling because when they pass Exit 50-something they understandably think they still have a long way to go (unless they know the area, in which case they don't need directions).
Interestingly, we've experience similar in Connecticut, where... as you may be aware, the exits on the Merritt Parkway begin at 27 at the state line, continuing what the exit numbers on "the Hutch" used to be before NY bumped them up (NY's exit at the state line is now 30 instead of 27). We had someone arrive half an hour once early because when we told them they needed to take exit 35 in Connecticut they assumed they would have a lot longer to go after the state line than they actually did.
As for the original subject, my preference is that exit number reset at state lines because this is established standard to the point that drivers expect it. And, as the example above shows, can lead to confusion when it is randomly not followed.
Of course, this does also mean that exit numbers should not reset where there is not a state line - I also have firsthand experience with people getting confused with I-87 in New York. Tell someone they need to take I-87 north after they get off the George Washington Bridge, and then tell them they want exit 4 for the Cross County Parkway. Then when they get on I-87 north and the next exits they see are 8, then 9, then 10, they incorrectly assume they must have taken a wrong turn.
With the Capital Beltway example, I would say this is simply an inherent problem with any interstate concurrency. Changing the exit numbers to match I-495's would fix the particular problem you describe, but create a new one for drivers following I-95 north looking for an exit in the area. So that wouldn't really be any better.
Exit #'s On the New Jersey Turnpike/I-95 Jump from the Exit 17 "Toll Plaza" to Free I-95 Exit 68
If they ever wanted to go with the current I-95 mileposts for exits, they could leave exits 1-6 alone since the PA extension is about 6 miles long. Not that I'd advocate for that.
Quote from: akotchi on August 23, 2018, 06:41:08 PM
The MUTCD, in Section 2E.31, requires . . . "If a circumferential, loop, or spur route crosses State boundaries, the numbering sequence shall be coordinated by the States to provide continuous interchange numbering." These are 3dis.
Oddly enough, MDOT and TDOT didn't do this for I-269 around Memphis even though there's absolutely no reason why TDOT couldn't have continued MDOT's numbering, particularly since MDOT posted their numbering first. Given that it's a Standard and both states use the federal MUTCD I'm surprised FHWA signed off on TDOT's signage plans.
Is Ohio a follower when it comes to this? I-275 and 471: exit numbers carry across state lines. I-470: exit numbers reset at state line. Was West Virginia not interested in carrying over exit numbers but Indiana and Kentucky were? Hmm.
Especially for I-470, which is the better route for through traffic, not repeating exit numbers would be logical.
Quote from: PurdueBill on October 15, 2018, 10:43:05 PM
Is Ohio a follower when it comes to this? I-275 and 471: exit numbers carry across state lines. I-470: exit numbers reset at state line. Was West Virginia not interested in carrying over exit numbers but Indiana and Kentucky were? Hmm.
Especially for I-470, which is the better route for through traffic, not repeating exit numbers would be logical.
I-275 is a beltway, so it follows the MUTCD rule listed in the post above. I-471 is 5.75 miles long, with 0.73 miles being in Ohio, so it's so insignificantly short that resetting doesn't make sense for one exit. I-470 has separate exit numbers in OH and WV because it existed in two sections between 1976 and 1983 until the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Bridge and approaches made it whole. Because the two sections were in different states, they each had their own set of exit numbers. Stands to reason the exit numbers would have become continuous when I-470 was completed, but they have yet to become so. There is precedent to do it: I-635 in KS/MO, which is not a beltway, does not reset at the border (I-635 in MO is about the same length as I-470 in WV).
In México, kilometer-posts count down to the next major city rather than a state line. It makes sense, but it's also kind of humorous to see a distance sign that says [CITY NAME 68] right next to a km-68 post.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on October 16, 2018, 02:20:20 AM
Quote from: PurdueBill on October 15, 2018, 10:43:05 PM
Is Ohio a follower when it comes to this? I-275 and 471: exit numbers carry across state lines. I-470: exit numbers reset at state line. Was West Virginia not interested in carrying over exit numbers but Indiana and Kentucky were? Hmm.
Especially for I-470, which is the better route for through traffic, not repeating exit numbers would be logical.
I-275 is a beltway, so it follows the MUTCD rule listed in the post above. I-471 is 5.75 miles long, with 0.73 miles being in Ohio, so it's so insignificantly short that resetting doesn't make sense for one exit. I-470 has separate exit numbers in OH and WV because it existed in two sections between 1976 and 1983 until the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Bridge and approaches made it whole. Because the two sections were in different states, they each had their own set of exit numbers. Stands to reason the exit numbers would have become continuous when I-470 was completed, but they have yet to become so. There is precedent to do it: I-635 in KS/MO, which is not a beltway, does not reset at the border (I-635 in MO is about the same length as I-470 in WV).
Seems like the kind of thing that they could have planned ahead though. It is silly for 470 to reset exit numbers and count down twice in such a short distance even if it does cross a state line. They could have left the exits unnumbered on one side or something as a stopgap knowing they would be numbered upon completion.
Quote from: oscar on August 24, 2018, 10:24:24 AM
Quote from: US 89 on August 23, 2018, 05:14:54 PM
US 93 (and the new I-11) reset at the Arizona-Nevada line over the Hoover Dam, but Arizona has it mileposted as an east-west route. This means there are two Exit 2s about 4 miles apart, one on either side of the line.
Ditto for the Trans-Canada Highway at the QC/MB border. QC treats its part (A-85) as north-south even though it really isn't, while NB's part (NB 2) is west-east. So you have separate exit 1s on both sides of the border.
Isn't that the same for A-40/ON-417?
Quote from: kphoger on October 16, 2018, 12:08:12 PM
In México, kilometer-posts count down to the next major city rather than a state line. It makes sense, but it's also kind of humorous to see a distance sign that says [CITY NAME 68] right next to a km-68 post.
I-4 works out where its western terminus is in Downtown Tampa where its zero mile marker is. So in essence when you see a mile sign for Tampa going WB a mile post with the same number is nearby.
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 23, 2018, 07:13:15 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 23, 2018, 10:40:03 AM
I-280 (IL/IA) does not reset at the Mississippi River. However, exit numbers do change when I-74 joins in to follow I-74 (as I-74/280).
That's just because of the, somewhat illogical, convention that the lower Interstate Route usually controls the exit numbers.
Then again, to be fair, there is no logical reason why I-74 needs to enter Iowa, at all.
Routes like I-82 (W), really shouldn't reset, they should continue the mileage.
I don't know if that's true. When I-69 and I-96 run together on the west side of Lansing, Michigan they use I-96's exit numbers.
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 23, 2018, 07:13:15 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 23, 2018, 10:40:03 AM
I-280 (IL/IA) does not reset at the Mississippi River. However, exit numbers do change when I-74 joins in to follow I-74 (as I-74/280).
That's just because of the, somewhat illogical, convention that the lower Interstate Route usually controls the exit numbers.
Then again, to be fair, there is no logical reason why I-74 needs to enter Iowa, at all.
Routes like I-82 (W), really shouldn't reset, they should continue the mileage.
Which is not followed in MS when I-20 joins I-59. The remaining exits in the concurrency use I-59's mileage. And I-20 seems to be the through route as 59 comes in from the south. I wonder if I-59 was built first?
iPhone
I-269 resets at the MS/TN state line