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Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?

Started by US 41, February 11, 2019, 10:02:23 PM

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Automatic or Manual

Automatic
Manual

sparker

Although my first car was an automatic, my 2nd -- and pretty much every car I owned from 1970 through 2001 -- had a manual transmission; the last two were small trucks with 5-speeds (and shells), used in my business to haul things such as speaker cabinets and electronic components (added adjustable air-shocks to handle the additional loads).  Got used to it -- but acquired a SUV (Kia Sportage) back at the end of '01; when it bit the dust a few years back purchased a Camry from a friend; both had automatics.  Was over 50 when I switched back to an automatic -- but I kept the last stick truck around for business until electrical issues (damn you, Mitsubishi!) doomed it back in 2010 (but it was a work horse for almost 19 years!).  My GF can't drive stick, so both our Toyotas are automatic -- and I don't think I'd switch back at this stage of my life -- although if I have to rent a truck or van to haul anything around, and there's a stick vehicle available, I just might snag one of those just to see if my skills are intact! 


1995hoo

Quote from: US 41 on February 15, 2019, 11:00:15 PM
.... For those who don't know you can tell a car is a manual when they roll backwards on a slope before accelerating. ....

Heh. I'm pretty good at avoiding rolling back, but way back when I first started driving and I had a 1977 Ford Granada I unintentionally rolled back a bit and bumped a BMW that was too close behind me. The woman driving it was outraged and seemed even more so when I told her it was her fault because I had a manual shift and she should have left room. (There's court precedent saying that, too, in many states–the driver behind has the obligation of leaving enough space because even the most experienced manual-shift driver may roll back on a hill.) Eventually she shut up because there wasn't any damage to either car. My Granada had a pedal-operated handbrake, so I couldn't do the "handbrake trick" to prevent the car from rolling back. I think I rolled back more often in that car than in any other I've ever had simply because that car was bigger and heavier and had a much longer clutch throw.

A lot of younger people in this country seem to have no clue that can happen. Sometimes if I see a driver's ed car approaching me from behind when I'm on a hill I'll deliberately roll back a little bit before the car gets close to me in the hope that the instructor will notice and explain it to the student.

In Montreal one time a guy behind me pulled up extremely close behind me on a fairly steep uphill. I could have done the handbrake trick, but I didn't really want to, so instead I leaned over, caught his eye, and gestured at him to back up a little. He must have realized what I wanted because he waved kind of apologetically and backed up. In the USA you'd probably be given the finger for that.

It's funny, a year or two ago I was driving in Florida with my brother-in-law and his son (who was then 13). His son asked what the handbrake lever was. He'd never seen one because his parents' minivan has a foot-operated brake. A different nephew in Fort Myers wanted to know what that stick I kept moving around was. I explained the idea of shifting gears yourself by analogizing it to how you shift gears when you ride a bike and he seemed to get it. Both kids seemed absolutely confounded when I told them my car has three pedals instead of two, however!

Regarding comments in this thread about "making driving more difficult," to me it's second nature. I think more about it when I drive an automatic because I have to stop my left foot from reflexively seeking the clutch. The only times I ever found driving a manual to be at all difficult were (1) when I was 15 years old and learning to drive and struggling with hills (my dad didn't teach me the handbrake trick until after he was satisfied I knew how to start on a hill without that trick) and (2) the first time I test-drove a 2004 TL and then the first few times I drove my own 2004 TL after buying it. In the latter situation it was because the clutch's bite point was a little indistinct until I got used to it. In the case of the handbrake trick thing, my dad explained afterwards that he didn't teach me that at first because he didn't want me to rely on it and then possibly encounter a car with a different type of brake–which proved prescient in the case of the Granada, which we did not have at that time (I bought it from a guy at his office when I was 16). I've driven at least one other manual-shift car that I can recall that didn't have a handbrake lever; it was a VW Passat turbodiesel I rented in Scotland and the brake was operated by a button on the dashboard.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

LM117

Quote from: abefroman329 on February 12, 2019, 09:13:58 AM
I don't even know how to drive a manual, so...automatic.

Same here and even if I did know how to drive a manual, I'd still prefer automatic since I'm too damn lazy.
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

RobbieL2415

Just remember, there were 3-speed automatic transmissions on production cars into the mid-90s.. How good or bad were they?

J N Winkler

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 16, 2019, 10:40:21 AMIn the case of the handbrake trick thing, my dad explained afterwards that he didn't teach me that at first because he didn't want me to rely on it and then possibly encounter a car with a different type of brake–which proved prescient in the case of the Granada, which we did not have at that time (I bought it from a guy at his office when I was 16). I've driven at least one other manual-shift car that I can recall that didn't have a handbrake lever; it was a VW Passat turbodiesel I rented in Scotland and the brake was operated by a button on the dashboard.

I don't think I agree with your father's philosophy.  I think that, instead of teaching hill-holding only, I would also teach that it is the driver's responsibility, before starting the engine, to research what arrangements the vehicle offers for holding it still when the clutch is disengaged.  Holding a manual on a hill without brake application requires other drivers to leave space for controlled roll-back, which I would not trust them to do given how many of them I see stopping astride railroad crossings.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

formulanone

#80
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 16, 2019, 11:47:01 AM
Just remember, there were 3-speed automatic transmissions on production cars into the mid-90s.. How good or bad were they?

Terrible, if you cared about such things. Usually you had a tall gearing to eliminate any excitement and prevent it from shifting too much. If you just cared about driving from Point A to Point B, you probably didn't care.

In that case, the 4/5-speed was definitely worth the trouble if you wanted a bit more oomph, a few more mpgs, and maybe save a few Ss with lines through them. But some vehicles had no other choice, so that's what go got.

sparker

The one thing that will likely disabuse anyone regarding driving a stick -- trying to get around San Francisco with one -- particularly if you need to access anything near hilltops (Coit Tower, Nob Hill, etc.).  Chances are a driver will need to "feather" their emergency/parking brake more than once when stopping uphill at cross streets.  Can get more than a bit harrowing before long!

J N Winkler

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 16, 2019, 11:47:01 AMJust remember, there were 3-speed automatic transmissions on production cars into the mid-90s.. How good or bad were they?

The last car we had with a three-speed automatic was a large car made in 1978 that left family ownership in 1995.  Its shifting behavior was unremarkable.  IIRC, three-speed automatics in the late 1980's/early 1990's were largely confined to budget cars, so performance was calibrated to maintain the budget-car feel, which then (as now) was about nudging you to spend more to get more.

Quote from: sparker on February 16, 2019, 12:07:52 PMThe one thing that will likely disabuse anyone regarding driving a stick -- trying to get around San Francisco with one -- particularly if you need to access anything near hilltops (Coit Tower, Nob Hill, etc.).  Chances are a driver will need to "feather" their emergency/parking brake more than once when stopping uphill at cross streets.  Can get more than a bit harrowing before long!

San Francisco driving has always struck me as the ideal application for a beater compact with steelies, with or without wheel covers (alloys are just asking for tears).  But I can't imagine having to be obsessive about having to keep the parking brake adjusted.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

corco

Quote from: sparker on February 16, 2019, 12:07:52 PM
The one thing that will likely disabuse anyone regarding driving a stick -- trying to get around San Francisco with one -- particularly if you need to access anything near hilltops (Coit Tower, Nob Hill, etc.).  Chances are a driver will need to "feather" their emergency/parking brake more than once when stopping uphill at cross streets.  Can get more than a bit harrowing before long!

I had to navigate Seattle/Tacoma with a stick for a couple years - you get used to it. The thing is that automatics roll back too because of how steep the hills are and a=honestly, I enjoy the feeling of superiority I get when I perfectly execute a takeoff from one of those steep hills with a manual.

jakeroot

Quote from: corco on February 16, 2019, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: sparker on February 16, 2019, 12:07:52 PM
The one thing that will likely disabuse anyone regarding driving a stick -- trying to get around San Francisco with one -- particularly if you need to access anything near hilltops (Coit Tower, Nob Hill, etc.).  Chances are a driver will need to "feather" their emergency/parking brake more than once when stopping uphill at cross streets.  Can get more than a bit harrowing before long!

I had to navigate Seattle/Tacoma with a stick for a couple years - you get used to it. The thing is that automatics roll back too because of how steep the hills are and a=honestly, I enjoy the feeling of superiority I get when I perfectly execute a takeoff from one of those steep hills with a manual.

As a Lyft driver in Seattle with a manual transmission, I am quite used to the hills at this point as well. In fact, I find it easier than an automatic as you can feather the clutch & throttle when its raining/slick.

Beltway

I am surprised at how many people here have a car with a manual transmission, given that nationally in the U.S. it is only about 5% of market share.
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1995hoo

#86
Quote from: Beltway on February 16, 2019, 04:21:44 PM
I am surprised at how many people here have a car with a manual transmission, given that nationally in the U.S. it is only about 5% of market share.

Heh. Counting my wife's cars, in our house we have three manuals (two six-speeds and a five-speed).


(Edited to fix an autocorrect-induced capitalization error)
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jakeroot

Quote from: Beltway on February 16, 2019, 04:21:44 PM
I am surprised at how many people here have a car with a manual transmission, given that nationally in the U.S. it is only about 5% of market share.

We're probably over-represented in some demographic categories. I'm sure you'll find higher levels of manual ownership amongst middle-class driving-obsessed males.

Beltway

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 16, 2019, 04:28:06 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 16, 2019, 04:21:44 PM
I am surprised at how many people here have a car with a manual transmission, given that nationally in the U.S. it is only about 5% of market share.
Heh. Counting my wife's cars, in our house we have three manuals (two six-speeds and a five-Speed).

3 or 4 speeds were one thing, but I wouldn't want to have to shift thru 6 speeds, or even 7 or 8 like some of the latest cars.  Skipping gears is also discouraged.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

ClassicHasClass

Quote from: sparker on February 16, 2019, 12:07:52 PM
The one thing that will likely disabuse anyone regarding driving a stick -- trying to get around San Francisco with one -- particularly if you need to access anything near hilltops (Coit Tower, Nob Hill, etc.).  Chances are a driver will need to "feather" their emergency/parking brake more than once when stopping uphill at cross streets.  Can get more than a bit harrowing before long!

My 2018 Civic Si Sedan has an automatic brake-hold mode which is perfect for launching on hilly streets without rolling back. That said, driving in San Francisco in general just sucks, and I'm pretty sure the city makes it that way on purpose.

If I had to switch to an automatic, I think it's the clutch I'd miss the most, even if I had paddle shifters.

riiga

Manual all the way. I can't stand driving automatics, it feels like I'm not in control. The transmission also doesn't change gears the way I want and not having engine braking is very strange to me. Now, electric cars usually have regenerative braking, so you'll slow down akin to having engine braking, which I found to be a much better experience than driving a regular car with automatic.

jakeroot

#91
Quote from: Beltway on February 16, 2019, 04:42:27 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 16, 2019, 04:28:06 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 16, 2019, 04:21:44 PM
I am surprised at how many people here have a car with a manual transmission, given that nationally in the U.S. it is only about 5% of market share.
Heh. Counting my wife's cars, in our house we have three manuals (two six-speeds and a five-Speed).

3 or 4 speeds were one thing, but I wouldn't want to have to shift thru 6 speeds, or even 7 or 8 like some of the latest cars.  Skipping gears is also discouraged.

I believe all manual transmissions, minus a few Subaru's, are 6-speeds these days. Mine is. It's really not like you're changing gears any more often. The 6th gear is really for the freeway. The Porsche and Corvette 7-speed manuals (the most available in a manual) are mostly for top speed runs, IIRC. The 9/10-speed autos do change gear earlier than a manual would, but because they're mostly geared for fuel economy.




Quote from: riiga on February 16, 2019, 05:25:46 PM
Manual all the way. I can't stand driving automatics, it feels like I'm not in control. The transmission also doesn't change gears the way I want and not having engine braking is very strange to me. Now, electric cars usually have regenerative braking, so you'll slow down akin to having engine braking, which I found to be a much better experience than driving a regular car with automatic.

This is a good point. I've noticed that regenerative braking the last few times I've driven electric vehicles. I could get used to it pretty quickly.

J N Winkler

It is not universally true that automatics don't offer engine braking in D.  It really depends on how the specific transmission is designed.  Some, like the Saturn TAAT or the five-speed automatic used in the second-generation Honda Fit, offer engine braking when coasting that is similar to manuals.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

RobbieL2415

Quote from: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 07:45:51 PM
It is not universally true that automatics don't offer engine braking in D.  It really depends on how the specific transmission is designed.  Some, like the Saturn TAAT or the five-speed automatic used in the second-generation Honda Fit, offer engine braking when coasting that is similar to manuals.
Every auto box I've ever had has had the ability to drop down into 3rd.  There's no Federal requirement to offer downshifting on the shifter, just that neutral must be in between reverse and drive.

J N Winkler

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 16, 2019, 09:19:08 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 07:45:51 PM
It is not universally true that automatics don't offer engine braking in D.  It really depends on how the specific transmission is designed.  Some, like the Saturn TAAT or the five-speed automatic used in the second-generation Honda Fit, offer engine braking when coasting that is similar to manuals.

Every auto box I've ever had has had the ability to drop down into 3rd.  There's no Federal requirement to offer downshifting on the shifter, just that neutral must be in between reverse and drive.

That is a completely separate issue.  What Riiga and Jakeroot are talking about is what happens when the transmission is left in D and the driver takes his or her foot off the accelerator pedal so that the car coasts with no power request.  Some automakers design the transmission so that lockup engages in all forward gears, so when the pedal goes up/throttle shuts, there is a solid connection between the engine and the wheels and there is engine braking.  Others, like Toyota, design the transmission so that in D a one-way overrun clutch prevents the wheels from applying torque back to the engine crankshaft.  As a result, the car coasts like it is in neutral (or the clutch pedal is down) while the engine settles down to an idle.  (Toyota's designs generally reserve engine braking for the L gear ranges, where the one-way overrun clutch does not engage.)
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

vdeane

Quote from: jakeroot on February 16, 2019, 07:03:23 PM
I believe all manual transmissions, minus a few Subaru's, are 6-speeds these days. Mine is. It's really not like you're changing gears any more often. The 6th gear is really for the freeway. The Porsche and Corvette 7-speed manuals (the most available in a manual) are mostly for top speed runs, IIRC. The 9/10-speed autos do change gear earlier than a manual would, but because they're mostly geared for fuel economy.
My 2014 Civic LX is a 5 speed.  I don't know if Honda has switched to 6 speed since or not.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

RobbieL2415

Quote from: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 09:35:53 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 16, 2019, 09:19:08 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 07:45:51 PM
It is not universally true that automatics don't offer engine braking in D.  It really depends on how the specific transmission is designed.  Some, like the Saturn TAAT or the five-speed automatic used in the second-generation Honda Fit, offer engine braking when coasting that is similar to manuals.

Every auto box I've ever had has had the ability to drop down into 3rd.  There's no Federal requirement to offer downshifting on the shifter, just that neutral must be in between reverse and drive.

That is a completely separate issue.  What Riiga and Jakeroot are talking about is what happens when the transmission is left in D and the driver takes his or her foot off the accelerator pedal so that the car coasts with no power request.  Some automakers design the transmission so that lockup engages in all forward gears, so when the pedal goes up/throttle shuts, there is a solid connection between the engine and the wheels and there is engine braking.  Others, like Toyota, design the transmission so that in D a one-way overrun clutch prevents the wheels from applying torque back to the engine crankshaft.  As a result, the car coasts like it is in neutral (or the clutch pedal is down) while the engine settles down to an idle.  (Toyota's designs generally reserve engine braking for the L gear ranges, where the one-way overrun clutch does not engage.)
Never experienced that on an automatic.  GM's 4T-40/45-E gearboxes always stayed in their highest gear until a change in engine load occurred.

Takumi

Quote from: vdeane on February 16, 2019, 10:52:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 16, 2019, 07:03:23 PM
I believe all manual transmissions, minus a few Subaru's, are 6-speeds these days. Mine is. It's really not like you're changing gears any more often. The 6th gear is really for the freeway. The Porsche and Corvette 7-speed manuals (the most available in a manual) are mostly for top speed runs, IIRC. The 9/10-speed autos do change gear earlier than a manual would, but because they're mostly geared for fuel economy.
My 2014 Civic LX is a 5 speed.  I don't know if Honda has switched to 6 speed since or not.
They switched to a 6-speed manual on the base Civic for 2016, yes. The Si has had a 6-speed as the only transmission choice since 2006, as has the Type R since 2001 (it was finally introduced in North America in 2017, but has been around in Japan and Europe over the generations since the 96-00 body style).
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1995hoo

Quote from: Beltway on February 16, 2019, 04:42:27 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 16, 2019, 04:28:06 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 16, 2019, 04:21:44 PM
I am surprised at how many people here have a car with a manual transmission, given that nationally in the U.S. it is only about 5% of market share.
Heh. Counting my wife's cars, in our house we have three manuals (two six-speeds and a five-Speed).

3 or 4 speeds were one thing, but I wouldn't want to have to shift thru 6 speeds, or even 7 or 8 like some of the latest cars.  Skipping gears is also discouraged.

Ehhh, it's all a case of what you get used to. Prior to my 2004 TL, I had a 1997 Accord that had a five-speed. I often wished that car had a six-speed because I drove faster than I do now and at 80 mph it really needed another gear. Sixth gear in my TL makes an astonishing difference in fuel economy in long-distance highway runs. Get on the Interstate and leave it in sixth the whole time. I've averaged over 30 mpg for a tank with an average speed of 73 mph coming up I-95 from Florida (late enough at night that there wasn't much traffic), which isn't bad for a 3.2-litre V-6 that averages around 19—22 mpg in city driving! (As noted in a different thread, my wife's 2015 TLX with a 3.5-litre V-6 and a nine-speed automatic averaged 34.8 mph on a tank coming back from Florida this past December, but it's not really appropriate to compare straight-up due to other features on her car like cylinder deactivation and auto idle stop that extend the range. I probably hurt the fuel economy a bit too using the paddle shifters to downshift on some of the hillier segments of I-26 around Columbia.)

When I first drove a six-speed, I figured it was no big deal because I was used to five-speeds and you're just adding another forward gear below fifth in the shift pattern. The only thing that concerned me maybe a little bit was the downshift from sixth to third because it's a different movement than anything you do with a five-speed; I was initially a little concerned that it'd be too easy to overshoot third such that you'd be trying to shift into first (a bad idea). But that proved not to be the case. The shift levers want to center themselves as you move through neutral anyway, so you just use that to guide you into third, and it quickly becomes second nature.

In my TL I tend not to use sixth gear much in local driving because on most Northern Virginia roads other than Interstates I don't generally get going fast enough–I find sixth is too high a gear unless I'm holding a sustained 65 mph. My wife's RSX is a totally different matter. It has a 2.0-litre inline-4 and you shift up a lot sooner than you do in the TL. In that car, I'll be in sixth at 50 mph. It could really use seven or eight speeds, but the only cars I've ever heard of with a seven-speed manual and a conventional H-gate shifter are Porsches and Corvettes, and the RSX certainly isn't remotely comparable to either of those (other than, perhaps, in the raw statistic of horsepower per litre; it puts out 100 hp per litre without turbo- or supercharging).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

ClassicHasClass

#99
I agree, it really is very easy to go from 5-speed to 6-speed. When I got my first 6-speeder (2008 Civic Si Sedan), it was second nature by the second day. I will say, however, that I'm usually cruising in 6th: it's 5th I rarely use, mostly as a quasi-overdrive.

Where I have an issue is going back to a 5-speed. I keep trying to throw my father's Honda Fit 5-speed manual in reverse when I'm driving it!



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