My wife's driving directions app routed us from Long Beach to East Bay along I-5 to I-580 to CASR-84 to I-680 today rather than the usual I-5 to CASR-152 to US-101 to I-880. It can't have been that wrong because we did the trip in and out of the rain in just about 6 hours of engine time. I've no idea what was happening over Pacheco Pass or in Gilroy that made this routing a better decision, but that's just the inspiration for this post.
I've often commented that there is a section of US-101 in northern LA, all of Ventura, and parts of southern Santa Barbara counties where, heading for some places in the Bay Area, one has to commit to a routing decision that requires knowledge of facts that CAN'T be known at the time of the decision (such as traffic conditions in southern Santa Clara county 4 hours later).
So, my question for the forum: What are some routing decisions that can go badly?
1) Let's mostly stick to trips that will normally be completed in less than 11 hours and which are being planed close to the time of the trip (or even while the trip is in progress). In other words, a drive that a reasonable driver (or pair of drivers) would contemplate for a single day.
2) Let's give top priority to decisions requiring facts that can't easily be determined at the time that a decision must be made.
3) Let's give high priority to how bad the decision could turn out to be in terms of absolute time. One or two ill-timed traffic controls can turn a 3-minute trip into a 10-minute trip. That's a large RELATIVE difference, but turning a three hour tour into a 4-season sitcom will be far more impressive (to me at least).
4) Let's give SOME priority to how easy it is to make the wrong decision.
5) Let's give low priority to routings that could go wrong because of unwarned and highly unusual occurrences (for example, landslides in dry weather, lava flows from a previously inactive volcano, police activity in low-crime areas, a bridge collapses by a collision, etc)
So, what's a trip like this that you take often enough to know the truth of these random factors?
If you don't know the Golden Gate Bridge only charges tolls in one direction (southbound, leading into the city), this can add $7-8 to your trip that you won't know about until a couple weeks later when you get a bill in the mail. And I've noticed that most GPS will not tell you this is tolled, so if you have a direct routing through the Bay Area, it will hit you with that toll unless you purposely go out of your way to take the eastern bay freeways. But oftentimes the toll price saves you money because of the extra distance and time spent in traffic on freeways like 80 and 580.
Quote from: Quillz on April 14, 2024, 07:22:28 AMIf you don't know the Golden Gate Bridge only charges tolls in one direction (southbound, leading into the city), this can add $7-8 to your trip that you won't know about until a couple weeks later when you get a bill in the mail. And I've noticed that most GPS will not tell you this is tolled, so if you have a direct routing through the Bay Area, it will hit you with that toll unless you purposely go out of your way to take the eastern bay freeways. But oftentimes the toll price saves you money because of the extra distance and time spent in traffic on freeways like 80 and 580.
Google Maps certainly does recognize the toll. What obscure GPSes are you talking about? :D
Speaking of Google Maps, I'm finding its preference for local streets becoming more and more annoying. Recently, it twice tried to route me straight through the middle of Harrisburg on a quick trip I took down US 15. Heading around on PA 581 or I-83 is just more convenient and traffic lights always are an X factor if you're prioritizing speed and time.
Quote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 09:59:43 AMSpeaking of Google Maps, I'm finding its preference for local streets becoming more and more annoying. Recently, it twice tried to route me straight through the middle of Harrisburg on a quick trip I took down US 15. Heading around on PA 581 or I-83 is just more convenient and traffic lights always are an X factor if you're prioritizing speed and time.
... are you sure that it isn't YOUR preference for local streets? It's an option ...
Quote from: michravera on April 14, 2024, 01:45:05 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 09:59:43 AMSpeaking of Google Maps, I'm finding its preference for local streets becoming more and more annoying. Recently, it twice tried to route me straight through the middle of Harrisburg on a quick trip I took down US 15. Heading around on PA 581 or I-83 is just more convenient and traffic lights always are an X factor if you're prioritizing speed and time.
... are you sure that it isn't YOUR preference for local streets? It's an option ...
Yes, I am sure.
Quote from: michravera on April 14, 2024, 01:45:05 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 09:59:43 AMSpeaking of Google Maps, I'm finding its preference for local streets becoming more and more annoying. Recently, it twice tried to route me straight through the middle of Harrisburg on a quick trip I took down US 15. Heading around on PA 581 or I-83 is just more convenient and traffic lights always are an X factor if you're prioritizing speed and time.
... are you sure that it isn't YOUR preference for local streets? It's an option ...
Google Maps doesn't prioritize the most convenient route or even the fastest, but rather, whatever it deems to be most fuel efficient, which often includes more local streets on a slightly longer routing or taking a convoluted route.
I-5 from CA 33 near Tracy south to Old Highway in Santa Clarita has the potential to really cause chaos. There is not much in the way of frontage roads or easy detours if there is a stoppage on route. Getting around stuff like that requires some luck and advanced knowledge of questionable back roads.
CA 99 and US 101 tend to not get the same level of problem due to the redundant nature of the road networks near those highways.
Quote from: vdeane on April 14, 2024, 03:32:58 PMQuote from: michravera on April 14, 2024, 01:45:05 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 09:59:43 AMSpeaking of Google Maps, I'm finding its preference for local streets becoming more and more annoying. Recently, it twice tried to route me straight through the middle of Harrisburg on a quick trip I took down US 15. Heading around on PA 581 or I-83 is just more convenient and traffic lights always are an X factor if you're prioritizing speed and time.
... are you sure that it isn't YOUR preference for local streets? It's an option ...
Google Maps doesn't prioritize the most convenient route or even the fastest, but rather, whatever it deems to be most fuel efficient, which often includes more local streets on a slightly longer routing or taking a convoluted route.
You can force it to choose the fastest over most efficient in options.
Quote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 04:05:13 PMYou can force it to choose the fastest over most efficient in options.
So only if you browse Maps when signed in, then.
One somewhat universal one would be the decision to exit a toll road or not when there's a traffic jam. If you get off, it's bound to be a slog to get back on. If you stay on, it's bound to be 10+ miles of stop and go traffic.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 14, 2024, 03:40:13 PMI-5 from CA 33 near Tracy south to Old Highway in Santa Clarita has the potential to really cause chaos. There is not much in the way of frontage roads or easy detours if there is a stoppage on route. Getting around stuff like that requires some luck and advanced knowledge of questionable back roads.
CA 99 and US 101 tend to not get the same level of problem due to the redundant nature of the road networks near those highways.
Funny... I find the section between Santa Nella (CASR-33 near CASR-152 and I-5) and Magic Mountain and I-5 to be the most reliable 3:15 in the Bay-to-Basin trip. There's 100 m of Right-of-Way. Even if an overpass collapsed, you could be routed into the median or onto shoulder, even opposite-direction lanes. After the initial chaos wears off, your going 45MPH rather than 85MPH for a few miles. You probably lose more time on 68MPH-governed trucks trying to pass other trucks. Snow over Tejon Pass on the other hand? Yep, it makes US-101 a viable option.
Quote from: michravera on April 14, 2024, 07:47:33 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 14, 2024, 03:40:13 PMI-5 from CA 33 near Tracy south to Old Highway in Santa Clarita has the potential to really cause chaos. There is not much in the way of frontage roads or easy detours if there is a stoppage on route. Getting around stuff like that requires some luck and advanced knowledge of questionable back roads.
CA 99 and US 101 tend to not get the same level of problem due to the redundant nature of the road networks near those highways.
Funny... I find the section between Santa Nella (CASR-33 near CASR-152 and I-5) and Magic Mountain and I-5 to be the most reliable 3:15 in the Bay-to-Basin trip. There's 100 m of Right-of-Way. Even if an overpass collapsed, you could be routed into the median or onto shoulder, even opposite-direction lanes. After the initial chaos wears off, your going 45MPH rather than 85MPH for a few miles. You probably lose more time on 68MPH-governed trucks trying to pass other trucks. Snow over Tejon Pass on the other hand? Yep, it makes US-101 a viable option.
Speaking for myself I've been burned a couple times on I-5 between 152 and 198. The last time I was able to get off at where 33 split towards Mendota and zig zag around farm roads (old 33 was closed due to floodin) to get where I was going.
My thought on Tejon Pass nowadays is that the best alternative seems to be Tehachapi-Willow Springs Road and San Francisquito Canyon Road.
Quote from: webny99 on April 14, 2024, 06:13:05 PMOne somewhat universal one would be the decision to exit a toll road or not when there's a traffic jam. If you get off, it's bound to be a slog to get back on. If you stay on, it's bound to be 10+ miles of stop and go traffic.
I have the opposite decision. Free highway is jammed. Do I take the parallel toll road hoping it'll be faster?
Many years ago, the answer was yes. Now, it's generally a no. The highway itself may move fine, but the exit and smaller roads are themselves jammed, reducing or eliminating any benefit to using the tolled option.
Quote from: Quillz on April 14, 2024, 07:22:28 AMIf you don't know the Golden Gate Bridge only charges tolls in one direction (southbound, leading into the city), this can add $7-8 to your trip that you won't know about until a couple weeks later when you get a bill in the mail. And I've noticed that most GPS will not tell you this is tolled, so if you have a direct routing through the Bay Area, it will hit you with that toll unless you purposely go out of your way to take the eastern bay freeways. But oftentimes the toll price saves you money because of the extra distance and time spent in traffic on freeways like 80 and 580.
Interestingly, this works in a unique way in the other direction:
Going to Vacaville or Sacramento, the Golden Gate Bridge is part of the only toll-free way to get to those environs from SF!
I was with a few friends on a trip to Thunderhill Raceway Park some weeks ago, and they did the obvious routing (80-505-5-162). Since we had left super early in the morning, 101-37-80-505-5-162 could have been done at only a 20 minute deficit to the more obvious route, and with a full toll savings.
Years before this, I sometimes had to drive from Menlo Park back to my place in Sacramento at the time (before I returned to the Bay Area full-time), and that creates a second toll-free gap:
From southern San Mateo County and from the Silicon Valley, a route to Sacramento via 84-580-205-5-4-99, while involving lots of road changes, successfully avoids the Benicia Bridge (680 en route to 80) or Antioch Bridge (160 either for the scenic drive or to cut over to 12) tolls on the way northeastward!
Can't get much more wrong than dying after Google Maps (reportedly) leads someone to a missing bridge without any barriers.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/09/lawsuit-says-man-died-after-google-maps-directed-him-over-collapsed-bridge/
Quote from: Ars TechnicaGoogle sued over fatal Google Maps error after man drove off broken bridge
Google is being sued by a widow who says her husband drowned in September 2022 after Google Maps directed him over a collapsed bridge in Hickory, North Carolina.
Google failed to correct its map service despite warnings about the broken bridge two years before the accident, according to the lawsuit filed Tuesday by Alicia Paxson in Wake County Superior Court. Philip Paxson "died tragically while driving home from his daughter's ninth birthday party, when he drove off of an unmarked, unbarricaded collapsed bridge in Hickory, North Carolina while following GPS directions," the complaint said.
The Snow Creek Bridge reportedly collapsed in 2013 and wasn't repaired. Barricades were typically in place but "were removed after being vandalized and were missing at the time of Paxson's wreck," according to The Charlotte Observer. The lawsuit has five defendants, including Google and its owner Alphabet.
The other defendants are James Tarlton and two local business entities called Tarde, LLC and Hinckley Gauvain, LLC. Tarlton and the two businesses "owned, controlled, and/or were otherwise responsible for the land" containing the bridge, the lawsuit said.
"The Bridge Defendants refused to properly maintain the bridge, leaving it in a horrendously dangerous state of disrepair for years," the lawsuit said. "The Bridge Defendants refused to place reasonable and proper barricades in front of the hazard to alert drivers of the deadly drop and failed to enact inspection measures to ensure that barricades remained in front of the hazard until necessary repairs occurred."
Wonder if there's been an update to that lawsuit. Bet it was settled out of court.
Quote from: vdeane on April 14, 2024, 04:41:44 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 04:05:13 PMYou can force it to choose the fastest over most efficient in options.
So only if you browse Maps when signed in, then.
Works on mobile devices too.
Going back to the OP, Google's tendency to route one along the BW Pkwy instead of 95 between the DC and Baltimore beltways should qualify...
Quote from: froggie on April 15, 2024, 09:51:02 AMQuote from: vdeane on April 14, 2024, 04:41:44 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 04:05:13 PMYou can force it to choose the fastest over most efficient in options.
So only if you browse Maps when signed in, then.
Works on mobile devices too.
Going back to the OP, Google's tendency to route one along the BW Pkwy instead of 95 between the DC and Baltimore beltways should qualify...
Eh, that's a gamble either way.
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2024, 10:04:53 AMQuote from: froggie on April 15, 2024, 09:51:02 AMQuote from: vdeane on April 14, 2024, 04:41:44 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 04:05:13 PMYou can force it to choose the fastest over most efficient in options.
So only if you browse Maps when signed in, then.
Works on mobile devices too.
Going back to the OP, Google's tendency to route one along the BW Pkwy instead of 95 between the DC and Baltimore beltways should qualify...
Eh, that's a gamble either way.
My long-running experience is that 95 is the preferred option. Sure, 4mi longer, but a higher speed limit, more lanes, and far less recurring congestion.
Quote from: froggie on April 15, 2024, 10:46:04 AMQuote from: Rothman on April 15, 2024, 10:04:53 AMQuote from: froggie on April 15, 2024, 09:51:02 AMQuote from: vdeane on April 14, 2024, 04:41:44 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 04:05:13 PMYou can force it to choose the fastest over most efficient in options.
So only if you browse Maps when signed in, then.
Works on mobile devices too.
Going back to the OP, Google's tendency to route one along the BW Pkwy instead of 95 between the DC and Baltimore beltways should qualify...
Eh, that's a gamble either way.
My long-running experience is that 95 is the preferred option. Sure, 4mi longer, but a higher speed limit, more lanes, and far less recurring congestion.
That's my preference too, for trips from northern Virginia to Baltimore and beyond, for the reasons froggie stated.
Back in the pre-2K days, there was a concert at Chicago Motor Speedway I went to with friends. I dutifully printed off directions from MapQuest and followed them to a T.
That became problematic when we were directed down 8 miles of Cicero Ave, in bumper-to-bumper traffic, to get to the speedway. We were the only white people around, and Florida Man has a rebel flag front license plate on his pickup. So he tailgated me as hard as he could until we finally got to the Speedway.
We then discovered we could've stayed on the Tri-State and gotten there much quicker.
Quote from: michravera on April 14, 2024, 02:59:18 AMMy wife's driving directions app routed us from Long Beach to East Bay along I-5 to I-580 to CASR-84 to I-680 today rather than the usual I-5 to CASR-152 to US-101 to I-880. It can't have been that wrong because we did the trip in and out of the rain in just about 6 hours of engine time. I've no idea what was happening over Pacheco Pass or in Gilroy that made this routing a better decision, but that's just the inspiration for this post.
I've often commented that there is a section of US-101 in northern LA, all of Ventura, and parts of southern Santa Barbara counties where, heading for some places in the Bay Area, one has to commit to a routing decision that requires knowledge of facts that CAN'T be known at the time of the decision (such as traffic conditions in southern Santa Clara county 4 hours later).
So, my question for the forum: What are some routing decisions that can go badly?
1) Let's mostly stick to trips that will normally be completed in less than 11 hours and which are being planed close to the time of the trip (or even while the trip is in progress). In other words, a drive that a reasonable driver (or pair of drivers) would contemplate for a single day.
2) Let's give top priority to decisions requiring facts that can't easily be determined at the time that a decision must be made.
3) Let's give high priority to how bad the decision could turn out to be in terms of absolute time. One or two ill-timed traffic controls can turn a 3-minute trip into a 10-minute trip. That's a large RELATIVE difference, but turning a three hour tour into a 4-season sitcom will be far more impressive (to me at least).
4) Let's give SOME priority to how easy it is to make the wrong decision.
5) Let's give low priority to routings that could go wrong because of unwarned and highly unusual occurrences (for example, landslides in dry weather, lava flows from a previously inactive volcano, police activity in low-crime areas, a bridge collapses by a collision, etc)
So, what's a trip like this that you take often enough to know the truth of these random factors?
I have one of these. We live up in the Bay Area, and sometimes we take a road trip down to San Diego. There is always a point of decision as we approach Newhall Pass over whether we go directly through the LA Basin, or bypass it via I-210 -> CA-71 -> I-15. If we decide to go through the LA basin, the next decision is whether to remain on I-5 or to use I-405 around the west side. Each of the above routes, absent traffic, has a travel time that is within 15-20 minutes of another on what is typically a 7.5-8 hour drive. Choose wrong, and you are locked-into a decision that could literally add HOURS to your overall travel time. Usually I make the choice based on time-of-day and past experiences, but all it takes is an overturned big rig and all bets are off.
Quote from: oscar on April 15, 2024, 12:47:44 PMQuote from: froggie on April 15, 2024, 10:46:04 AMQuote from: Rothman on April 15, 2024, 10:04:53 AMQuote from: froggie on April 15, 2024, 09:51:02 AMQuote from: vdeane on April 14, 2024, 04:41:44 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 14, 2024, 04:05:13 PMYou can force it to choose the fastest over most efficient in options.
So only if you browse Maps when signed in, then.
Works on mobile devices too.
Going back to the OP, Google's tendency to route one along the BW Pkwy instead of 95 between the DC and Baltimore beltways should qualify...
Eh, that's a gamble either way.
My long-running experience is that 95 is the preferred option. Sure, 4mi longer, but a higher speed limit, more lanes, and far less recurring congestion.
That's my preference too, for trips from northern Virginia to Baltimore and beyond, for the reasons froggie stated.
Makes me wonder how good Google Maps' time estimator is, then.
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2024, 07:49:35 AMWonder if there's been an update to that lawsuit. Bet it was settled out of court.
Sounds about right. The trillion dollar companies can't be responsible for gross negligence, after all!
It's no longer the case, but this thread made me think of the problem of passing through the Baltimore area up until the Fort McHenry Tunnel opened in November 1985. If you wanted to stay on the highway, you had three choices—take the Harbor Tunnel, detour around to the east over the (now-destroyed) Key Bridge, or detour around the (somewhat longer) west side of the Baltimore Beltway. You had to make an educated guess in advance because the Harbor Tunnel was prone to severe traffic backups and once you committed to the Harbor Tunnel Thruway, if you hit a traffic jam the only way out was to make an illegal U-turn across the median if you were on a part of the road where that was possible. (I remember my father doing that one time. My mother was very much Not Pleased when he did it.) I recall a trip north to New York in what was probably the summer of 1983 when my father was not with us because of work demands, so my mother was driving and I told her she should take I-695 over the bridge because the tunnel would back up. She said it was a weekday and it wouldn't be too bad, so she took the Harbor Tunnel exit and we hit a severe backup. It took an hour to go five miles.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 16, 2024, 10:57:24 AMIt's no longer the case, but this thread made me think of the problem of passing through the Baltimore area up until the Fort McHenry Tunnel opened in November 1985. If you wanted to stay on the highway, you had three choices—take the Harbor Tunnel, detour around to the east over the (now-destroyed) Key Bridge, or detour around the (somewhat longer) west side of the Baltimore Beltway. You had to make an educated guess in advance because the Harbor Tunnel was prone to severe traffic backups and once you committed to the Harbor Tunnel Thruway, if you hit a traffic jam the only way out was to make an illegal U-turn across the median if you were on a part of the road where that was possible. (I remember my father doing that one time. My mother was very much Not Pleased when he did it.) I recall a trip north to New York in what was probably the summer of 1983 when my father was not with us because of work demands, so my mother was driving and I told her she should take I-695 over the bridge because the tunnel would back up. She said it was a weekday and it wouldn't be too bad, so she took the Harbor Tunnel exit and we hit a severe backup. It took an hour to go five miles.
Ah, the Harbor Tunnel! If you think that was bad, you should have seen it before the Key Bridge (RIP) was opened. I vividly remember trips from VA to New England (back in the late 60s - early 70's) being delayed for hours thanks to traffic on the Harbor Tunnel Thruway, from which there was no escape and really no way to avoid it. And, combine that with how the current-day I-95 didn't open until 1970 or 71 and before that you only had the Baltimore-Washington Parkway between the 2 cities. It was a nightmare that made the beltway look easy. Still remember how happy we were when 95 opened through Laurel/Columbia/etc and made life so much easier. With lovely [gold-colored] button copy signs too!
Then there was the time in February 1997 when I was coming down US 93 near Dolan Springs, Arizona and saw the sign for Cottonwood Road. I naively thought it might in fact go through to Cottonwood Cove, Nevada. (Or if it didn't I could always turn around and go back.) Long story short, I plowed my car into a wash Wednesday night, and reached relative civilization Friday morning.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on April 25, 2024, 11:46:32 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on April 16, 2024, 10:57:24 AMIt's no longer the case, but this thread made me think of the problem of passing through the Baltimore area up until the Fort McHenry Tunnel opened in November 1985. ....
Ah, the Harbor Tunnel! If you think that was bad, you should have seen it before the Key Bridge (RIP) was opened. ....
I almost certainly experienced the Harbor Tunnel before the bridge opened, but I don't remember any such trips because the bridge opened just over two months before my fourth birthday.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 25, 2024, 12:03:15 PMQuote from: StogieGuy7 on April 25, 2024, 11:46:32 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on April 16, 2024, 10:57:24 AMIt's no longer the case, but this thread made me think of the problem of passing through the Baltimore area up until the Fort McHenry Tunnel opened in November 1985. ....
Ah, the Harbor Tunnel! If you think that was bad, you should have seen it before the Key Bridge (RIP) was opened. ....
I almost certainly experienced the Harbor Tunnel before the bridge opened, but I don't remember any such trips because the bridge opened just over two months before my fourth birthday.
It was right up there with the Cross-Bronx Expressway for being the worst part of our 8 hour trip. Especially recall being stuck down in the road cut just before/after you are in the tunnel. Could not see anything but the traffic and the smog coming from it. They had some pretty ancient (even for then) signage and lighting back then too - like elongated fluorescent lights, which I thought were pretty cool. 1950s vintage, I'd imagine.
Quote from: michravera on April 14, 2024, 02:59:18 AMSo, my question for the forum: What are some routing decisions that can go badly?
A similar one that burned me recently is between the Hartford, CT area and Cape Cod, MA. The two options are basically I-84/I-90/I-495, or pick your favorite non-freeway route to Providence and then I-195. The choice has to be made at the I-84/CT 74 junction in Tolland, CT at the latest, or even earlier if you prefer US 6 to 44/101/6.
The problem spots are often I-90 between 84 and Worcester (over 20 miles from the decision point) or Providence (over an hour from the decision point). Providence is typically worse during weekday rush hours, while 90 is typically bad on summer weekends and big holiday travel times. However, an accident on either can quickly snowball into a half-hour traffic jam or worse.
With the Washington Bridge on I-195 all messed up, things are even worse now. I recently started this drive around 8:30 PM on a weeknight, and Google showed no traffic in Providence so I went that way. Unknown to me, the Washington Bridge construction had I-195 EB down to a single lane starting at 9 PM. By the time I got there, it took 50 minutes to go about 2 miles from the 95/195 interchange to the far side of the Washington Bridge.
This whole thread reminds me of when I had to go back up from Palmdale to the Bay Area back in 2019, and I was hearing inklings of snow in the Grapevine area:
My original plan for that day was 14-138-5-46-101, but my friend in the area suggested I go 14 to Santa Clarita, then 126-101, which ended up working out as there were some closures on 5 after all!
If an accident happens on I-5 near Camp Pendleton,it's going to suck because there's no exits for miles.
Catch the traffic report early enough, at least there's the alternative of taking I-15 to get to/from San Diego.
I don't understand when GPS routes you on toll routes when the free routes are minutes slower. On my commute, my GPS always routes me to take tolls and express lanes, and the alternate option of taking only free routes is one minute slower. You'd think there is the technology nowadays to keep people off of toll roads if the time difference is marginal.
Quote from: BJ59 on April 29, 2024, 06:26:30 PMI don't understand when GPS routes you on toll routes when the free routes are minutes slower. On my commute, my GPS always routes me to take tolls and express lanes, and the alternate option of taking only free routes is one minute slower. You'd think there is the technology nowadays to keep people off of toll roads if the time difference is marginal.
Google and Waze both have toll avoidance options.
Quote from: cockroachking on April 29, 2024, 08:21:33 PMQuote from: BJ59 on April 29, 2024, 06:26:30 PMI don't understand when GPS routes you on toll routes when the free routes are minutes slower. On my commute, my GPS always routes me to take tolls and express lanes, and the alternate option of taking only free routes is one minute slower. You'd think there is the technology nowadays to keep people off of toll roads if the time difference is marginal.
Google and Waze both have toll avoidance options.
But that is generally an all-or-nothing option. I agree that I'd like some sort of an option (probably a sliding set of settings between all and nothing) to say "avoid tolls unless it saves significant time/distance", although it would be hard to set specific quantities or levels.
You could also imagine sliding options to indicate things like "I'd rather spend an hour on the open road than 45 minutes in slow traffic" or "I'd like to take scenic routes unless they add too much to the travel time" (where different people might have different opinions on what "too much time" is).
Quote from: GaryA on April 30, 2024, 12:07:54 PMQuote from: cockroachking on April 29, 2024, 08:21:33 PMQuote from: BJ59 on April 29, 2024, 06:26:30 PMI don't understand when GPS routes you on toll routes when the free routes are minutes slower. On my commute, my GPS always routes me to take tolls and express lanes, and the alternate option of taking only free routes is one minute slower. You'd think there is the technology nowadays to keep people off of toll roads if the time difference is marginal.
Google and Waze both have toll avoidance options.
But that is generally an all-or-nothing option. I agree that I'd like some sort of an option (probably a sliding set of settings between all and nothing) to say "avoid tolls unless it saves significant time/distance", although it would be hard to set specific quantities or levels.
You could also imagine sliding options to indicate things like "I'd rather spend an hour on the open road than 45 minutes in slow traffic" or "I'd like to take scenic routes unless they add too much to the travel time" (where different people might have different opinions on what "too much time" is).
That's one of those things that sound great in theory but you go down a rabbit hole trying to implement. Okay, they implement slider bars so you can set "significant time/distance" parameters for avoiding toll roads and using scenic routes. Say you set 20 minutes as the threshold. That's a hard setting, meaning that a minute one way or the other, depending on the option being set, is a no-go. That will be irritating and so then you'll want a second slider bar to set a maximum variance from the first setting. And what if traffic conditions keep changing? Need a third slider bar to set the maximum number of times you want the thing to keep changing back and forth between Route A and Route B. And then...
Quote from: GaryA on April 30, 2024, 12:07:54 PMQuote from: cockroachking on April 29, 2024, 08:21:33 PMQuote from: BJ59 on April 29, 2024, 06:26:30 PMI don't understand when GPS routes you on toll routes when the free routes are minutes slower. On my commute, my GPS always routes me to take tolls and express lanes, and the alternate option of taking only free routes is one minute slower. You'd think there is the technology nowadays to keep people off of toll roads if the time difference is marginal.
Google and Waze both have toll avoidance options.
But that is generally an all-or-nothing option. I agree that I'd like some sort of an option (probably a sliding set of settings between all and nothing) to say "avoid tolls unless it saves significant time/distance", although it would be hard to set specific quantities or levels.
You could also imagine sliding options to indicate things like "I'd rather spend an hour on the open road than 45 minutes in slow traffic" or "I'd like to take scenic routes unless they add too much to the travel time" (where different people might have different opinions on what "too much time" is).
does that all-or-nothing still show toll bridges that may be the only way?
There's quite a few 50-50 options in the Seattle area, owing to our geography that severely limits the number of possible routes. Some decisions may mean a half-hour or more of time lost to congestion.
I-5 or I-405 for thru traffic between Lynnwood and South King - if the express lanes are in your favor, I-5 is generally better; I-405 gets severely congested from Bellevue to Renton, so that's always a consideration.
SR 520 (tolled) or I-90 (free) if crossing Lake Washington - due to the Mount Baker Tunnel, westbound traffic on I-90 can come to an absolute standstill. The toll is usually worth ponying up for on weekends, though you still will have difficulty with the merge onto I-5.
I-5 or SR 529 from Everett to Marysville - northbound I-5 is very congested through Everett during weekday and weekend afternoons, so it is sometimes worth diverting onto city streets to reach SR 529; right now, there's construction that limits SR 529 to one northbound lane, so it's above even for the time being.
Maybe I've just gotten lucky, but of all the times I've taken drives to destinations on the Westside, I think I've only gotten caught in traffic in the Everett I-5 area one or two times. I have definitely gotten caught up in stop-and-go traffic on I-5 in Seattle, though, particularly taking the long exit ramp from I-90 westbound to I-5 northbound. And, of course, I can also attest to the backups on I-405.
A few hours after my post, the Everett traffipocalypse reared its ugly head.
A road rage incident spilled over into a trooper-involved shooting that shut down all of I-5 northbound from 4 pm to 12 am. Only one lane open on SR 529, plus bridge traffic, which meant hours and hours of delay. I managed to get around via some back roads to the east but I saw so many semi trucks and buses that were stuck firmly in place; one of the trackers I use said that there was a bus that left Seattle at 4:30 pm and arrived in Marysville at midnight.
https://x.com/wsdot_traffic/status/1791258747878424779
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on May 16, 2024, 01:28:46 PMQuote from: GaryA on April 30, 2024, 12:07:54 PMQuote from: cockroachking on April 29, 2024, 08:21:33 PMQuote from: BJ59 on April 29, 2024, 06:26:30 PMI don't understand when GPS routes you on toll routes when the free routes are minutes slower. On my commute, my GPS always routes me to take tolls and express lanes, and the alternate option of taking only free routes is one minute slower. You'd think there is the technology nowadays to keep people off of toll roads if the time difference is marginal.
Google and Waze both have toll avoidance options.
But that is generally an all-or-nothing option. I agree that I'd like some sort of an option (probably a sliding set of settings between all and nothing) to say "avoid tolls unless it saves significant time/distance", although it would be hard to set specific quantities or levels.
You could also imagine sliding options to indicate things like "I'd rather spend an hour on the open road than 45 minutes in slow traffic" or "I'd like to take scenic routes unless they add too much to the travel time" (where different people might have different opinions on what "too much time" is).
does that all-or-nothing still show toll bridges that may be the only way?
Well, Google at least will show you a sensible route from New Jersey into New York even if "avoid tolls" is selected. It won't make you drive to Albany to cross the Hudson River for free. On the other hand, when distances are not quite as extreme, it will suggest going through Trenton to cross from South Jersey into Delaware. I'm not sure what the cutoff is or whether it's on a case-by-case basis.
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on May 16, 2024, 01:28:46 PMQuote from: GaryA on April 30, 2024, 12:07:54 PMQuote from: cockroachking on April 29, 2024, 08:21:33 PMQuote from: BJ59 on April 29, 2024, 06:26:30 PMI don't understand when GPS routes you on toll routes when the free routes are minutes slower. On my commute, my GPS always routes me to take tolls and express lanes, and the alternate option of taking only free routes is one minute slower. You'd think there is the technology nowadays to keep people off of toll roads if the time difference is marginal.
Google and Waze both have toll avoidance options.
But that is generally an all-or-nothing option. I agree that I'd like some sort of an option (probably a sliding set of settings between all and nothing) to say "avoid tolls unless it saves significant time/distance", although it would be hard to set specific quantities or levels.
You could also imagine sliding options to indicate things like "I'd rather spend an hour on the open road than 45 minutes in slow traffic" or "I'd like to take scenic routes unless they add too much to the travel time" (where different people might have different opinions on what "too much time" is).
does that all-or-nothing still show toll bridges that may be the only way?
Around NYC it seems to figure you're gonna have to deal with a river crossing toll. But where I live, I'm 10 minutes from crossing the bridge into Philly; 13 minutes from the stadium complex. If I set the GPS to "No Tolls", it will tell me to go up to Trenton, cross the Trenton Makes bridge, then come all the way back down, making it a nearly 1.5 hour trip.
I get what's being said though about avoiding some tolls but not all. Say someone is in Baltimore, wanting to get to Philly. The traveler is willing to put up with the Maryland tolls, paying the $8 I-95 toll because they don't feel like going up to US 1. But to avoid the $4, I-95 toll in Delaware, the only way to make this work is changing the options to No Tolls after they crossed the Susquehanna River and paying that $8 toll.
And even then, Google will often suggest there's a faster route (by staying on 95 and paying the $4 toll in Delaware), and will even switch to that option if you don't constantly tell Google to ignore it repeatedly.