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Infrastructure Bill 2021

Started by ITB, August 02, 2021, 05:01:59 PM

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HighwayStar

To return to the main theme as it were, it sounds like there is some push to ignore the Biden administration recommendations for implementing funding from the November bill. Link below

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/593557-republicans-urge-states-to-ignore-biden-administration-infrastructure-funding
There are those who travel, and those who travel well


Plutonic Panda

Good. Adding new GP/non tolled lanes needs to have the same priority as fixing the existing system.

ITB


Major article published by the New York Times details how the asphalt industry played a key role in getting the infrastructure bill passed and how it stands to benefit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/19/us/politics/infrastructure-plan-asphalt.html

tolbs17


ilpt4u

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 03:16:42 PM
And it's paywalled.
I got around the "paywall"  using the "reader"  view option in Firefox - it kills the injected ad-overlay to subscribe and gives the written word underneath

ITB

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 03:16:42 PM
And it's paywalled.

I'm a subscriber so the paywall factor didn't occur to me. The article should be available to read for free if accessed through a major search engine and if you're under the NYT limit of 20 free articles.

Plutonic Panda

We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.

tolbs17

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 08:24:08 PM
We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.
Concrete highways save you gas compared to asphalt ones.

Scott5114

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 08:24:08 PM
We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.
Concrete highways save you gas compared to asphalt ones.

Prove it.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Rothman

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 08:24:08 PM
We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.
Pfft.  It's not that simple.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 09:20:25 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 08:24:08 PM
We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.
Concrete highways save you gas compared to asphalt ones.

Prove it.
Personally I like the aesthetics of concrete over asphalt. Asphalt if done correctly can last a very long time especially in warm weather climates. I suspect we'll see the new concrete portions of I-40 west of Flag outlast the asphalt portions.

I believe the asphalt has the added benefit of reduced road noise however I prefer concrete.

Scott5114

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 09:53:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 09:20:25 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 08:24:08 PM
We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.
Concrete highways save you gas compared to asphalt ones.

Prove it.
Personally I like the aesthetics of concrete over asphalt. Asphalt if done correctly can last a very long time especially in warm weather climates. I suspect we'll see the new concrete portions of I-40 west of Flag outlast the asphalt portions.

I believe the asphalt has the added benefit of reduced road noise however I prefer concrete.

Well, yes, concrete has a lot of benefits in terms of durability and aesthetics, and I greatly prefer it over asphalt.

I strongly suspect Tolbert pulled the assertion "concrete highways save you gas" straight out of his ass, though, so I want to see if he can provide any sort of source to back up that claim. I can't think of any reason that would be true.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

HighwayStar

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 10:10:14 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 09:53:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 09:20:25 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 08:24:08 PM
We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.
Concrete highways save you gas compared to asphalt ones.

Prove it.
Personally I like the aesthetics of concrete over asphalt. Asphalt if done correctly can last a very long time especially in warm weather climates. I suspect we'll see the new concrete portions of I-40 west of Flag outlast the asphalt portions.

I believe the asphalt has the added benefit of reduced road noise however I prefer concrete.

Well, yes, concrete has a lot of benefits in terms of durability and aesthetics, and I greatly prefer it over asphalt.

I strongly suspect Tolbert pulled the assertion "concrete highways save you gas" straight out of his ass, though, so I want to see if he can provide any sort of source to back up that claim. I can't think of any reason that would be true.

I had the same thought. I have no idea how concrete is supposed to save gas, and at least in my experience it is often scored with lines that seem like they should add friction and reduce gas millage.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

tolbs17


HighwayStar

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 10:53:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 09:20:25 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 08:24:08 PM
We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.
Concrete highways save you gas compared to asphalt ones.

Prove it.
https://www.sapphiregassolutions.com/blog/asphalt-production/asphalt-vs-concrete-roads-which-is-better/

QuoteLower emissions due to lower fuel costs for repairs

I think I see what is going on here.

It saves fuel on the construction end, but there is no fuel difference for vehicles driving on the completed roadway. That explanation does at least make sense.
However, I don't know that the savings are enough to outweigh other costs, and a more holistic picture would consider the energy use of concrete vs asphalt lifetime.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

US 89

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 10:10:14 PM
I strongly suspect Tolbert pulled the assertion "concrete highways save you gas" straight out of his ass, though, so I want to see if he can provide any sort of source to back up that claim. I can't think of any reason that would be true.

This study out of Florida International University suggests that statement to actually be true to some degree. When cars drive on any surface, it deforms slightly, and that slight deformation is greater for asphalt than it is for concrete. This causes asphalt to have a greater rolling resistance, which increases the amount of energy (gas) you'll need to drive the same distance.

That said, there are a whole host of other variables in play here. Per this review article from the International Journal of Engineering and Advanced Technology, other studies found that there was no statistically significant difference between asphalt and concrete, and other variables such as road smoothness and texture generally played a larger role.

tolbs17

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 11:01:42 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 10:53:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 09:20:25 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 08:24:08 PM
We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.
Concrete highways save you gas compared to asphalt ones.

Prove it.
https://www.sapphiregassolutions.com/blog/asphalt-production/asphalt-vs-concrete-roads-which-is-better/

QuoteLower emissions due to lower fuel costs for repairs

I think I see what is going on here.

It saves fuel on the construction end, but there is no fuel difference for vehicles driving on the completed roadway. That explanation does at least make sense.
However, I don't know that the savings are enough to outweigh other costs, and a more holistic picture would consider the energy use of concrete vs asphalt lifetime.
At least in high-traffic urban areas. I-85 north of Henderson seems kind of random to me at least. There's little traffic in that area so it seems odd that they used concrete for that.

HighwayStar

Quote from: US 89 on February 20, 2022, 11:03:49 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 10:10:14 PM
I strongly suspect Tolbert pulled the assertion "concrete highways save you gas" straight out of his ass, though, so I want to see if he can provide any sort of source to back up that claim. I can't think of any reason that would be true.

This study out of Florida International University suggests that statement to actually be true to some degree. When cars drive on any surface, it deforms slightly, and that slight deformation is significantly greater for asphalt than it is for concrete. This causes asphalt to have a greater rolling resistance, which increases the amount of energy (gas) you'll need to drive the same distance.

That said, there are a whole host of other variables in play here. Per this review article from the International Journal of Engineering and Advanced Technology, other studies found that there was no statistically significant difference between asphalt and concrete, and other variables such as road smoothness and texture generally played a larger role.

I had thought about the deformation aspect, but my guesstimate was that it would be an order of magnitude less important than the surface itself, ie. the ribbing of concrete versus the relatively smooth surface of hot mix.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

jeffandnicole

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 11:01:42 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 10:53:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 09:20:25 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2022, 08:24:08 PM
We need to to switch to concrete in this country for most projects.
Concrete highways save you gas compared to asphalt ones.

Prove it.
https://www.sapphiregassolutions.com/blog/asphalt-production/asphalt-vs-concrete-roads-which-is-better/

QuoteLower emissions due to lower fuel costs for repairs

I think I see what is going on here.

It saves fuel on the construction end, but there is no fuel difference for vehicles driving on the completed roadway. That explanation does at least make sense.
However, I don't know that the savings are enough to outweigh other costs, and a more holistic picture would consider the energy use of concrete vs asphalt lifetime.

Yeah, he mis-understood that "positive".  It's in reference to construction emissions and costs.

Actually, if you read the last line of the website, the company is actually promoting asphalt, not concrete.

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 20, 2022, 11:04:06 PMAt least in high-traffic urban areas. I-85 north of Henderson seems kind of random to me at least. There's little traffic in that area so it seems odd that they used concrete for that.

Traffic volumes usually have nothing to do with choosing asphalt vs. concrete, especially for long term traffic volumes.  There's certainly benefits of using concrete on a heavily travelled roadway, but it's fairly clear country-wide highways with heavier volumes don't generally use concrete.

If anything, if a transportation department is looking at a way to get a project done quicker because they want to limit delays, they will generally use asphalt over concrete.

triplemultiplex

Well if emissions are the deciding factor between the two types of pavement, than asphalt wins hands down.  The production of concrete is a massive source of anthropogenic carbon dioxide.  The act of baking limestone in a kiln to produce Portland Cement releases a buttload of CO2 in of itself without even considering the energy to power the kiln.  Meanwhile, asphalt is basically a waste product of oil refining.  Mix it with sand and gravel and you've got something to pave with.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

Plutonic Panda

#420
Here are the largest road projects helped by this bill so far:

QuoteFirst-year funding of the historic $1.2 trillion infrastructure law has led to more than 25,000 new highway and bridge projects moving forward in states, according to the American Road & Transportation Builders Association.

To measure the largest investment in the federal highway system since the 1950s, ARTBA sifted through U.S. Treasury Department data through August 31, and it listed the top-20 largest road projects receiving that funding.

"A key takeaway from the Treasury data is that the bipartisan infrastructure law is working in year one as intended, with state transportation departments disbursing their funds and projects breaking ground,"  said ARTBA Chief Economist Alison Premo Black, who reviewed and compiled the data for the report.

State departments of transportation have committed $53.5 billion in highway and bridge formula funds through September 30, 2022, ARTBA reports.

The association details how that money is being spent in each state with an interactive map and dashboard it has created and plans to update monthly. The resource tracks highway and bridge formula and discretionary funds by state and congressional district, ARTBA says.

Here is ARTBA's list of the 20 largest funding-formula projects benefitting from the infrastructure law:

Texas — Expanding Loop 1604 on I-10 in San Antonio — $291 million

Texas — 635 East Project in Dallas — $225 million

New York — Van Wyck Expressway Capacity & Access Improvements to and from JFK International Airport — $211 million

Arizona — Roadway Widening on I-17 Split — $200 million

Texas — I-35 Widening in Travis County — $192 million

South Carolina — Phase 1 Carolina Crossroads I-20/26/126 Corridor Improvement Project — $145 million

Ohio — I-70/71 Downtown Ramp Up Project in Columbus — $123 million

California — Rehabilitation of Pomona Freeway between the Long Beach and San Gabriel River Freeways — $121 million

California — Route 46 Corridor Improvement Project in San Luis Obispo — $119 million

Illinois — Interchange Reconstruction and Bridge Replacement on I-57 at I-74 Interchange in Urbana-Champaign — $107 million

Georgia — State Road 2/State Road 515 Roadway Reconstruction Project in Northern Georgia — $104 million

California — State Route 55 Improvements Project in Orange County — $101 million

California — Rehabilitation of Route 10 Near Coachella — $100 million

Tennessee — Interchange Modification on I-55 at Crump Boulevard in Memphis — $99.6 million

Texas — Widen Loop 375 in El Paso — $95 million

New Jersey — Route 18 Drainage and Pavement Rehabilitation in East Brunswick — $91.7 million

Tennessee — Improvements at I-75, I-24 Interchange near the Tennessee-Georgia Border — $91.2 million

South Carolina — Phase 2 Carolina Crossroads I-20/26/126 Corridor Improvement Project — $90 million

California — SAC 5 Corridor Enhancement Project in Sacramento — $88 million

Texas — Irving Interchange Project in Dallas — $80 million


"The economic and quality of life benefits of the infrastructure law will become even more apparent as funding continues in coming years,"  adds ARTBA Chair Paula Hammond, a WSP USA senior vice president. "The beneficiaries of these long-term investments will be the American traveling public in their communities."

The Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act was signed November 15, 2021, by President Joe Biden.

- https://www.equipmentworld.com/better-roads/article/15303646/artba-lists-20-largest-road-projects-funded-by-infrastructure-law



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