Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[abefroman329]

After all, it used to be "United we stand"...

You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers.  The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.

That's exactly why I used that C-word

Yeah, and then you went on to state "With that, I have very little sympathy to "local interests" of Breezewood. That is the situation that shouldn't exist to begin with, and those interests are parasitism on other's issues," which is the exact opposite of that C-word.

[zzcarp]

Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.

Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?

Was that section of I-70 a toll road at one point?

As I understand it, it is because the direct path for traffic coming from I-70 is a free route (US-119). In the case of Breezewood, the way this would be done would be to have a ramp off of I-70 to the turnpike, then the mainline would go to US-30, but for some reason that ramp was never built.

When I-70 EB was constructed south of Breezewood, the turnpike mainline still used the now-abandoned tunnels and the US 30 interchange was routed north of the turnpike in the opposite direction. I suggest there was an opportunity to build a continuation of the turnpike exit ramp roadways north of US-30 (similar to I-376 and US 22 east of Pittsburgh) and loop back west to the current I-70 EB mainline prior to most all of the Breezewood development. With the private property there now, I think that ship has sailed. In my view that possibility would have been a good compromise to keep both the Breezewood access AND visibility for the businesses at the interchange. I think the business visibility issue is a big reason a direct connection with the new or old Turnpike to I-70 has been a nonstarter.

One other item of note: Bedford County technically has two "Breezewood" situations. There is no direct access from the turnpike to I-99 in Bedford proper either, but a connection via Business US 220 along a commercial strip with traffic lights. Perhaps it's more of a Bedford County problem since other areas of the state seem to have tried to eliminate or minimize their "Breezewoods" at interchanges.

[vdeane]

Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.

I figure it's a smaller version of this, without the parallel corridor.  Then again, many of the freeway junctions around Montréal remind me of the PA Turnpike connections with interstates (usually but not always minus the double trumpet), so maybe that's not surprising.

[kalvado]

After all, it used to be "United we stand"...

You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers.  The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.

That's exactly why I used that C-word

Yeah, and then you went on to state "With that, I have very little sympathy to "local interests" of Breezewood. That is the situation that shouldn't exist to begin with, and those interests are parasitism on other's issues," which is the exact opposite of that C-word.

There are no legitimate local interests of Breezewood involved. Local legitimate interests would be highway access - or lack thereof; effects of traffic, convenience of locals etc. Forcing traffic to go through the shopping district which is only there due to bad road design  is not a legitimate local interest in my book. Actually when did aristocratic land owners were banned from collecting transit fees? Those "local interests" were on the same page...   
Compromise  could be had along the lines of converting that stretch into mega-service area while allowing easy highway access, or something like that...

[hbelkins]

Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.

Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?

Was that section of I-70 a toll road at one point?

As I understand it, it is because the direct path for traffic coming from I-70 is a free route (US-119). In the case of Breezewood, the way this would be done would be to have a ramp off of I-70 to the turnpike, then the mainline would go to US-30, but for some reason that ramp was never built.

When I-70 EB was constructed south of Breezewood, the turnpike mainline still used the now-abandoned tunnels and the US 30 interchange was routed north of the turnpike in the opposite direction. I suggest there was an opportunity to build a continuation of the turnpike exit ramp roadways north of US-30 (similar to I-376 and US 22 east of Pittsburgh) and loop back west to the current I-70 EB mainline prior to most all of the Breezewood development. With the private property there now, I think that ship has sailed. In my view that possibility would have been a good compromise to keep both the Breezewood access AND visibility for the businesses at the interchange. I think the business visibility issue is a big reason a direct connection with the new or old Turnpike to I-70 has been a nonstarter.

One other item of note: Bedford County technically has two "Breezewood" situations. There is no direct access from the turnpike to I-99 in Bedford proper either, but a connection via Business US 220 along a commercial strip with traffic lights. Perhaps it's more of a Bedford County problem since other areas of the state seem to have tried to eliminate or minimize their "Breezewoods" at interchanges.

Lots of people use the term "Breezewood" to describe the need to use surface routes to connect between two freeways, but it's not really a valid comparison, in my view. Similar situations exist in Pennsylvania with the Turnpike and US 219, the Turnpike and I-81, and the NE Extension and I-80, but the difference is those situations involve changing routes, not having to navigate a surface road to stay on the route you're on.

[roadman65]

After all, it used to be "United we stand"...

You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers.  The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.

You didn’t read Scott’s warning. Stick to Breezewood or face a padlock again.

[kalvado]

After all, it used to be "United we stand"...

You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers.  The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.

You didn’t read Scott’s warning. Stick to Breezewood or face a padlock again.

Well, that is purely a transportation issue, not a red vs blue. Where the balance of local interest vs wider interest is? How to deal with old decisions that have significant legacy attached? Wh should make the call?
Those are very real and legitimate question about transportation policy and politics. I am not a mod, but I would say that such things do belong here - but it's better to avoid discussion going beyond those particular transportation issues.     

[abefroman329]

There are no legitimate local interests of Breezewood involved.

Other than the people who own the businesses along that strip, sure.  And the people who live in Breezewood and use those businesses.

[abefroman329]

After all, it used to be "United we stand"...

You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers.  The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.

You didn’t read Scott’s warning. Stick to Breezewood or face a padlock again.

Well, that is purely a transportation issue, not a red vs blue. Where the balance of local interest vs wider interest is? How to deal with old decisions that have significant legacy attached? Wh should make the call?
Those are very real and legitimate question about transportation policy and politics. I am not a mod, but I would say that such things do belong here - but it's better to avoid discussion going beyond those particular transportation issues.   

Yeah, agreed - the way I understood Scott's warning, it had to do with dilatory comments about the publisher of the article.  If not, though, happy to stop discussing it.

[zzcarp]

Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.

Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?

Was that section of I-70 a toll road at one point?

As I understand it, it is because the direct path for traffic coming from I-70 is a free route (US-119). In the case of Breezewood, the way this would be done would be to have a ramp off of I-70 to the turnpike, then the mainline would go to US-30, but for some reason that ramp was never built.

When I-70 EB was constructed south of Breezewood, the turnpike mainline still used the now-abandoned tunnels and the US 30 interchange was routed north of the turnpike in the opposite direction. I suggest there was an opportunity to build a continuation of the turnpike exit ramp roadways north of US-30 (similar to I-376 and US 22 east of Pittsburgh) and loop back west to the current I-70 EB mainline prior to most all of the Breezewood development. With the private property there now, I think that ship has sailed. In my view that possibility would have been a good compromise to keep both the Breezewood access AND visibility for the businesses at the interchange. I think the business visibility issue is a big reason a direct connection with the new or old Turnpike to I-70 has been a nonstarter.

One other item of note: Bedford County technically has two "Breezewood" situations. There is no direct access from the turnpike to I-99 in Bedford proper either, but a connection via Business US 220 along a commercial strip with traffic lights. Perhaps it's more of a Bedford County problem since other areas of the state seem to have tried to eliminate or minimize their "Breezewoods" at interchanges.

Lots of people use the term "Breezewood" to describe the need to use surface routes to connect between two freeways, but it's not really a valid comparison, in my view. Similar situations exist in Pennsylvania with the Turnpike and US 219, the Turnpike and I-81, and the NE Extension and I-80, but the difference is those situations involve changing routes, not having to navigate a surface road to stay on the route you're on.

I see the distinction you're pointing to. Oddly enough, I've traveled through each of those, as you say, "situations". The I-476 & NE Extension/I-80 interchange surprised me with the traffic light since my then new 1998 Rand McNally atlas didn't show it as such (unlike using US 11 to traverse between I-76 and I-81 for example).

What makes I-99 a "Breezewood", IMHO, is that usually a 2DI ends at another interstate route. My argument is the Bedford exit from the turnpike and the subsequent ramps from Business US 220 to the US 220/I-99 freeway are in intent a continuous route connected by an arterial section. Were I-99 extended to I-68 near Cumberland, then it would match the other "situations".

[kalvado]

There are no legitimate local interests of Breezewood involved.

Other than the people who own the businesses along that strip, sure.  And the people who live in Breezewood and use those businesses.

Well, business owners made a bet on using certain situation. It doesn't entitle them for keeping that situation.
Imagine a business investing heavily in manufacturing some covid-related supplies supplies. Once some smoke is settled, they better find other use cases. Or should they ask for another virus to be created and released to keep production busy? Mine towns near depleted mines is the other situation. There should be a clear understanding that situation can change, and so is income of saloon in mine town...   
No question that rerouting the exit would hurt those enterprises - but that should be a pre-calculated risk of running a business like that.

Oh, and Breezwood PA,  population of 180... They definitely need a variety of fast food restaurants! 

[BrianP]

Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.

Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?

The original PATPK interchange at New Stanton was for US 119 which used to go through New Stanton via Pennsylvania Ave.  Then I-70 was built and for a time there was an at-grade intersection where the turnpike interchange met I-70/US 119.  Then the PATPK built a new interchange which is what you see now.  You can see a remnant of the original interchange on the west side of the turnpike. 

[zzcarp]

Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.

Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?

The original PATPK interchange at New Stanton was for US 119 which used to go through New Stanton via Pennsylvania Ave.  Then I-70 was built and for a time there was an at-grade intersection where the turnpike interchange met I-70/US 119.  Then the PATPK built a new interchange which is what you see now.  You can see a remnant of the original interchange on the west side of the turnpike.

I looked at that original US 119 interchange on Historic Aerials-boy was it wild! Each side had a two-way exit road that met at-grade on the east side and then had another at-grade intersection at US 119. I can't link a screenshot from my work computer, but I'll try to post an image of it later tonight.

[jmacswimmer]

Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.

Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?

The original PATPK interchange at New Stanton was for US 119 which used to go through New Stanton via Pennsylvania Ave.  Then I-70 was built and for a time there was an at-grade intersection where the turnpike interchange met I-70/US 119.  Then the PATPK built a new interchange which is what you see now.  You can see a remnant of the original interchange on the west side of the turnpike.

I wonder if the fact that the substandard Washington-New Stanton stretch was grandfathered into I-70 plays a role in there being a direct interchange here? Two of the other interstates that have always had direct interchanges (I-83 & I-76/Schuylkill) are also grandfathered in on older substandard freeways.

[Mr_Northside]

I wonder if the fact that the substandard Washington-New Stanton stretch was grandfathered into I-70 plays a role in there being a direct interchange here? Two of the other interstates that have always had direct interchanges (I-83 & I-76/Schuylkill) are also grandfathered in on older substandard freeways.

That's been my belief about the situation. 

I do wonder if PennDOT (or whatever it was called at the time) planned ahead a little for something in the Breezewood area though....
Mostly just where the "Free" I-70 carriageways bow out (and back) to widen the median in the vicinity of the Turnpike - even though the rest of free I-70 to MD has a pretty consistent median width, excepting the ascent & descent of Town Hill where the carriageways are at different elevations. 
Not saying they ever had an actual plan, just decided that would be a good place for more ROW.   Just speculating though, but I can't think of any other reasons for that wider median at that spot.

[LilianaUwU]

Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.

I figure it's a smaller version of this, without the parallel corridor.  Then again, many of the freeway junctions around Montréal remind me of the PA Turnpike connections with interstates (usually but not always minus the double trumpet), so maybe that's not surprising.

As much as A-20 in Vaudreuil is bad, it's far from the only violation of freeway building standards in Québec. The worst of them all, IMO, is A-955, which isn't even a freeway at all!

[kalvado]

Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.

I figure it's a smaller version of this, without the parallel corridor.  Then again, many of the freeway junctions around Montréal remind me of the PA Turnpike connections with interstates (usually but not always minus the double trumpet), so maybe that's not surprising.

As much as A-20 in Vaudreuil is bad, it's far from the only violation of freeway building standards in Québec. The worst of them all, IMO, is A-955, which isn't even a freeway at all!

I would say that the problem is not standard violation.  Problem is that violation is totally unnecessary and only occurred due to  ancient and now abandoned policies,.
It's easy to see how highway routed through the city can become substandard. If there is no room for a ramp, or building a new bridge is prohibitively expensive - well, FHWA may not like that, but that's life. Breezewood is nothing like that. It can, and should, be reconfigured.

[Bitmapped]

What makes I-99 a "Breezewood", IMHO, is that usually a 2DI ends at another interstate route. My argument is the Bedford exit from the turnpike and the subsequent ramps from Business US 220 to the US 220/I-99 freeway are in intent a continuous route connected by an arterial section.

Except they're not. US 220 continues south for a couple miles as a freeway, and then south to I-68 as a high-speed 2-lane corridor. Traffic counts on I-99/US 220 are roughly identical (11,000 AADT) north and south of the Exit #1 interchange the serves the Turnpike. The major movement here is straight through on I-99/US 220, not I-99 to/from the Turnpike.

[SEWIGuy]

Breezewood would not be allowed to happen today. It would be built as an exit with services available. That's what it should be now.

[jmacswimmer]

What makes I-99 a "Breezewood", IMHO, is that usually a 2DI ends at another interstate route. My argument is the Bedford exit from the turnpike and the subsequent ramps from Business US 220 to the US 220/I-99 freeway are in intent a continuous route connected by an arterial section.

Except they're not. US 220 continues south for a couple miles as a freeway, and then south to I-68 as a high-speed 2-lane corridor. Traffic counts on I-99/US 220 are roughly identical (11,000 AADT) north and south of the Exit #1 interchange the serves the Turnpike. The major movement here is straight through on I-99/US 220, not I-99 to/from the Turnpike.

On top of that, anyone looking to ultimately connect to I-70 east into Maryland from I-99 can use US 30 between Bedford & Breezewood - in addition to being toll-free, I think it's actually slightly faster because of the indirect connections to the Turnpike at both ends.

IMHO, Carlisle is much closer to "Breezewood" status than Bedford - even though there isn't an interstate running along US 11 between the Turnpike & I-81, it still marks a major transition point for long-distance traffic from the west that is heading towards New York (picking up I-78 beyond Harrisburg) in much the same way that Breezewood marks the transition for traffic heading towards DC & Baltimore.

[Rothman]

That's a good point about Carlisle.  Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.

[kalvado]

That's a good point about Carlisle.  Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.

Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway,  but trucks should have a more  planned approach.

[webny99]

I would have to agree that the non-connection between the PA Turnpike and I-81 is way under-discussed relative to Breezewood, when it's more egregious in pretty much all aspects except for the surface street having an interstate designation.

[KCRoadFan]

Me being the waterpark fan that I am, when I saw this thread, I imagined someone opening a waterpark in Breezewood, called “Breezy Bay” or something like that. I’m sure it would get a lot of business every summer, from all the travelers coming through.

Also, that might help turn Breezewood into a regional destination in its own right (at least in the summer), thus helping keep the already-existing businesses afloat even after a bypass ramp is built.

Just a thought that I happened to have.

[Rothman]

That's a good point about Carlisle.  Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.

Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway,  but trucks should have a more  planned approach.

Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.