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[kalvado]

That's a good point about Carlisle.  Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.

Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway,  but trucks should have a more  planned approach.

Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.

I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...

[Scott5114]

Me being the waterpark fan that I am, when I saw this thread, I imagined someone opening a waterpark in Breezewood, called “Breezy Bay” or something like that. I’m sure it would get a lot of business every summer, from all the travelers coming through.

I don't think so. If I'm on a long distance trip that passes through Breezewood I'm probably not going to run across a waterpark and suddenly decided I want to spend a few hours enjoying it. Chances are I have hotel reservations or at the very least a schedule I'm trying to keep. Breezewood's bread and butter is gas stations, fast food, and hotels because all three of those are things that a traveler will need eventually, so why not just stop in Breezewood while you're slowed down anyway?

[Rothman]

That's a good point about Carlisle.  Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.

Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway,  but trucks should have a more  planned approach.

Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.

I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...

Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection.  They're on the eastern side of I-81.

[kalvado]

That's a good point about Carlisle.  Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.

Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway,  but trucks should have a more  planned approach.

Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.

I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...

Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection.  They're on the eastern side of I-81.

Basically what you say is warehouses are near two interstates to maximize delivery options, and probably don't care too much about the way those interstates are connected. Of course, that affects last-mile routing, but that's it. They are certainly a contributing factor to the local economy.
I don't see any relevance of any of that to  "breezewood" configuration, though. Or I am missing something?
Interchange configuration would definitely affect how services are distributed, but that's what this thread is about

[Rothman]

That's a good point about Carlisle.  Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.

Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway,  but trucks should have a more  planned approach.

Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.

I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...

Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection.  They're on the eastern side of I-81.

Basically what you say is warehouses are near two interstates to maximize delivery options, and probably don't care too much about the way those interstates are connected. Of course, that affects last-mile routing, but that's it. They are certainly a contributing factor to the local economy.
I don't see any relevance of any of that to  "breezewood" configuration, though. Or I am missing something?
Interchange configuration would definitely affect how services are distributed, but that's what this thread is about

It's not the same as Breezewood since you don't have a stop light on an Interstate route.  But, to get between I-81 and I-76, you have to go past the truck stops on the west side of I-81.

My original remark was that the strip and surroundings of the connector certainly seems more on the up and up than Breezewood nowadays.

[NE2]

New Stanton is a lot more complicated than it seems. Initially it was a simple modified trumpet connecting to a two-lane US 119:


(1949)

I-70 was built in about 1957 as PA 71 Alternate, cutting off the old road to the west (Pennsylvania Avenue); US 119 was realigned to use the new freeway to the current Bair Boulevard interchange. The original Turnpike interchange remained until about 1964, when the current double trumpet was built.

To the east, several businesses south of the road seem to have held on until the ca. 1977 construction of the new US 119 freeway, and an at-grade remained at Arona Road until the construction of PA 66 in about 1991.

[jeffandnicole]

Breezewood would not be allowed to happen today. It would be built as an exit with services available. That's what it should be now.

It would be built as an exit, but the services are up to private industry.  If they feel they'll profit, they'll build.

As we're seeing now, a lot of the commerce that was there over the years has been shutting down.  It's a reason why, when there is a new article about Breezewood, they continue to show older pictures, not today's imagery... https://goo.gl/maps/uEcMvW7a6ebfwvL69

[kalvado]

That's a good point about Carlisle.  Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.

Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway,  but trucks should have a more  planned approach.

Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.

I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...

Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection.  They're on the eastern side of I-81.

Basically what you say is warehouses are near two interstates to maximize delivery options, and probably don't care too much about the way those interstates are connected. Of course, that affects last-mile routing, but that's it. They are certainly a contributing factor to the local economy.
I don't see any relevance of any of that to  "breezewood" configuration, though. Or I am missing something?
Interchange configuration would definitely affect how services are distributed, but that's what this thread is about

It's not the same as Breezewood since you don't have a stop light on an Interstate route.  But, to get between I-81 and I-76, you have to go past the truck stops on the west side of I-81.

My original remark was that the strip and surroundings of the connector certainly seems more on the up and up than Breezewood nowadays.

Crossroads is a place for doing business - it was that way, it is still the way.
Closer to home, Albany grew up as Canal city with roads towards MA (iron ore) and lakes towards Montreal. Some people in Utica still believe that city would be much better off if I-81 was routed through Utica instead of Syracuse.
The other overtone of your comment I may have missed is that Apple warehouse would make I-81 - Turnpike interchange redesign more challenging. Well, yes, that's true.

[Rothman]

That's a good point about Carlisle.  Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.

Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway,  but trucks should have a more  planned approach.

Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.

I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...

Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection.  They're on the eastern side of I-81.

Basically what you say is warehouses are near two interstates to maximize delivery options, and probably don't care too much about the way those interstates are connected. Of course, that affects last-mile routing, but that's it. They are certainly a contributing factor to the local economy.
I don't see any relevance of any of that to  "breezewood" configuration, though. Or I am missing something?
Interchange configuration would definitely affect how services are distributed, but that's what this thread is about

It's not the same as Breezewood since you don't have a stop light on an Interstate route.  But, to get between I-81 and I-76, you have to go past the truck stops on the west side of I-81.

My original remark was that the strip and surroundings of the connector certainly seems more on the up and up than Breezewood nowadays.

Crossroads is a place for doing business - it was that way, it is still the way.
Closer to home, Albany grew up as Canal city with roads towards MA (iron ore) and lakes towards Montreal. Some people in Utica still believe that city would be much better off if I-81 was routed through Utica instead of Syracuse.
The other overtone of your comment I may have missed is that Apple warehouse would make I-81 - Turnpike interchange redesign more challenging. Well, yes, that's true.

Breezewood is a type of crossroads as well, though.

Poor Utica.  Making I-81 somehow go through there seems way out of the way given the overall intended route.

I really didn't care about any difficulties of making the direct connection -- even if you plopped an interchange right at the crossroads, I'd imagine the connections with US 11 would need to be reconsidered due to how close the merges would be.  Just thought the comparison between Carlisle and Breezewood was interesting given the differing characteristics.

[kalvado]

Breezewood is a type of crossroads as well, though.

Poor Utica.  Making I-81 somehow go through there seems way out of the way given the overall intended route.

I really didn't care about any difficulties of making the direct connection -- even if you plopped an interchange right at the crossroads, I'd imagine the connections with US 11 would need to be reconsidered due to how close the merges would be.  Just thought the comparison between Carlisle and Breezewood was interesting given the differing characteristics.

Looks like Utica was an option.  Just a first mention of it I could find:
https://www.syracuse.com/vintage/2018/01/flashback_controversy_over_what_to_name_new_superhighway_in_1958.html

After a "big battle raged" over whether the new highway would go through Syracuse or swing east to near Utica

As for crossroads commerce... I can see 2 factors working against Breezewood:
1. Mountains. Looks like terrain isn't great in the area
2. Easier alternatives. I-81 corridor is in the valley, and more suitable for serving the east coast - including workforce availability in the valley vs mountains.  This actually explains why my CHewy orders are dispatched from PA! And yes, it is a really interesting problem to look at.

[webny99]

As we're seeing now, a lot of the commerce that was there over the years has been shutting down.  It's a reason why, when there is a new article about Breezewood, they continue to show older pictures, not today's imagery... https://goo.gl/maps/uEcMvW7a6ebfwvL69

The irony is that Breezewood is actually somewhat nondescript by PA standards. Heavy truck traffic on a heavily commercialized roadway is all too common across the state. There's US 11 in Carlisle, US 11/15 in Shamokin Dam, US 15 in Lewisburg prior to the northern CSVT opening, US 30 east of Lancaster, parts of US 219 and US 322, etc. etc.

[jeffandnicole]

As we're seeing now, a lot of the commerce that was there over the years has been shutting down.  It's a reason why, when there is a new article about Breezewood, they continue to show older pictures, not today's imagery... https://goo.gl/maps/uEcMvW7a6ebfwvL69

The irony is that Breezewood is actually somewhat nondescript by PA standards. Heavy truck traffic on a heavily commercialized roadway is all too common across the state. There's US 11 in Carlisle, US 11/15 in Shamokin Dam, US 15 in Lewisburg prior to the northern CSVT opening, US 30 east of Lancaster, parts of US 219 and US 322, etc. etc.

And for someone like me, if I'm in that area I'm on the PA Turnpike so exiting to stop at a business there would be like any other exit along an interstate.  The I-70 issue wouldn't come into play for me, other than increased traffic which is fairly common off other exits as well.

[Ted$8roadFan]

Another view of Breezewood:

https://beltmag.com/breezewood-pennsylvania-most-american-place-earth/

[HighwayStar]

Breezewood is an indictment of many things, but capitalism simply isn't one of them.

Above all it is an example of why multiple layers of responsibility for transportation don't work. Its also an example of why a weak central government can be a problem. Rather than just force the issue to be fixed properly this has been left for decades.

But it is also an example of the central issue with toll roads that exits and access are fewer than desirable because of the costs of booths, etc. It might be the most egregious example of this, but anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.

[1]

anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.

This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.

[HighwayStar]

anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.

This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.

I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.

[jeffandnicole]

anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.

This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.

I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.

2 does not equal many.

Although I'll add a 3rd:  295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange.  If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.

We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.

[kalvado]

anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.

This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.

I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.

2 does not equal many.

Although I'll add a 3rd:  295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange.  If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.

We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.

Thruway to I-84 used to be disconnected , but is fixed by now

[HighwayStar]

anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.

This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.

I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.

2 does not equal many.

Although I'll add a 3rd:  295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange.  If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.

We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.

There are far more than those 2, I was illustrating that it is not unique to PA. If I had a ready made list I would paste it.

[jeffandnicole]

anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.

This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.

I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.

2 does not equal many.

Although I'll add a 3rd:  295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange.  If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.

We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.

There are far more than those 2, I was illustrating that it is not unique to PA. If I had a ready made list I would paste it.

It didn't say this was unique to PA. He said it was mostly PA. And that's correct. Some states have a few examples, but PA has far more than any other one state.

[HighwayStar]

anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.

This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.

I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.

2 does not equal many.

Although I'll add a 3rd:  295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange.  If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.

We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.

There are far more than those 2, I was illustrating that it is not unique to PA. If I had a ready made list I would paste it.

It didn't say this was unique to PA. He said it was mostly PA. And that's correct. Some states have a few examples, but PA has far more than any other one state.

I have found the issue is true of most toll roads though, not just those in any particular state, Ohio, Indiana, New Jersey, New York, etc. all have this issue.
Its not just that they lack interchanges with other major highways, that is a particular issue of the Breezewood type, but more generally that the number of exits provisioned on a toll road is sub optimal. Surface streets that would have an interchange on a freeway often don't get one with a toll road and the result is a loss of local utility. Frontage roads can sometimes help with this to a degree.
Perhaps the failure to interface with other highways is more common in PA, but the exit provisioning issue generally is not.

[ethanhopkin14]

Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.

Comments like this amaze me and show that even in the roadgeek community, we have those that want to say "eh, it's good enough."

[Max Rockatansky]

Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.

Comments like this amaze me and show that even in the roadgeek community, we have those that want to say "eh, it's good enough."

See, I view it in another light.  So many Roadgeeks are focused on the surface gap of I-70 in Breezewood that they miss/overlook the abandoned PA Turnpike.  Being obsessed with orderly Interstate freeway standards and not a historic highway segment (which can be hiked) is pretty on brand with much of the general Roadgeeking world I’ve found.   

[jeffandnicole]

Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.

Comments like this amaze me and show that even in the roadgeek community, we have those that want to say "eh, it's good enough."

Because we all come from different areas and regions.  Someone in a more rural region would get severely irritated if they had to slow for congestion on the highway or had to wait more than one light cycle to get thru a light.   Others just hope the delay is less than 15 minutes.

For me, as I mentioned upthread somewhere, I'm always on I-76 in the Breezewood area.  I roll right thru it barely realizing where I am.  For others, if they're on I-70, I can see their frustration.   

It's been well noted that Breezewood really irks some people, even when it's not the only example.  People rarely talk about the lights on I-676 in Philly (and then debate if that's even I-676).  Or I-78 approaching the Holland Tunnel. 

So, yeah, it's not perfection, but it's fairly unique. It's not the way it should've happened, but absent the federal government demanding the state does something (which would mean the federal government would also have to approve the plans and provide the money), eh, it's good enough.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

I’d argue the surface gap in I-676 is more interesting.  The view of downtown Philadelphia alone makes it memorable.